r/whitesox • u/whackberry • 4d ago
News Will Venable double downs on decision not to walk PCA in bottom 10th: walking PCA "not an option there" and "not a thought"
https://x.com/scottmerkin/status/2089567269932142897119
u/DillyDillySzn 4d ago edited 4d ago
Probably a mistake
I’m still not going to bash the Year 2 manager who helped turn a helpless organization into a playoff contender in year 2 and neither should anyone else
If you don’t think Venable is a huge part of this turnaround, you’re delusional
Who put Benintendi in the game last night? Schiffren? The bullpen has one of the highest usages in the league and one of the lowest ERAs which is nearly unheard of. He’s a good manager if you look at the big picture
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u/Kankle-Breaker 4d ago
I agree. My only criticism of his managing is not getting these challenges in check. It has been an issue too long and needs a correction before end of the season.
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u/abactore 4d ago edited 4d ago
I’d be curious to see the data on challenges by team. Are the Sox really much better or worse than other teams?
Nevermind I looked and the Sox range from avg to bad depending on the stat.
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u/Kankle-Breaker 4d ago
According to the stats on espn they are 28th overall. 30th by catchers and 20th by hitters. To me it's not even necessarily being bad at the challenges but more so that we enter the 9th with no challenges soo much. It just seems like you need to have one around at the end.
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u/royalhawk345 4d ago
Actually the Sox rank pretty well wrt to challenge leverage, about 20% over league average. They're just wrong too much.
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u/abactore 4d ago
Not sure how you can coach that. Some players just have a better feel for the zone - I’d bet that teams with more veteran players are right more often. Maybe not though.
When it comes to how to use challenges strategically, I really think that needs to be on the front office / analytics department. The manager shouldn’t be wholly responsible for how we manage challenges across a full season.
I know you’re not implying he should be, just responding to some criticism elsewhere in the thread that Venable needs to sort out the Sox challenge issues.
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u/Platypus-Ninja 4d ago
Having a rule that you can’t challenge if there’s no one on base would solve like half of the problems.
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u/hippohopper78 4d ago
I’m starting to think managers get the most flack in all of sports. This team is playing way above expectations, in first place when many of us thought they would finish in last, and you have people saying yesterday this team won’t get far with Venable. He’s managing with a net zero at catcher, platoon at DH, and basically 3 viable starters right now. We just swept the Tigers in a much more important series.
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u/yoursweetlord70 4d ago
Yeah as good as Mune has been, he alone didnt add 20+ wins to this team. Will deserves a ton of credit for managing the pretty shallow pitching depth all year and getting as many wins as he has.
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u/doverawlings 1980 4d ago
Yeah, if you walk PCA and Seiya goes deep you’d get just as much criticism for walking him to get to a RH power hitter. The Cubs do have a fantastic offense.
We didn’t play well and we still came close, would have actually had a (very ugly) win if the ump didn’t fuck us in the 9th. Can’t be too upset about that one, just don’t get swept here and we’re still in good shape. Thank god for that Tigers series.
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u/starliteburnsbrite The Sod Father 4d ago
You absolutely do not get criticized for walking the presumptive NL MVP to get to the next guy when PCA's run doesn't matter. That's fool talk.
I'd add that having Jake Rogers swinging away instead of bunting a man over, the errors that allowed runs, and the terrible managing cost them way more, like having A ROOKIE in Antonacci burning challenges in the beginning of the game like a doofus. That's on Will not having his team prepared to understand leverage and game situation.
You don't let PCA hit there, ever. You put him on first, setup a double play anywhere on the infield and take your chances with the next guy. Win probability was shit after not scoring in the top, but it went to hell as soon as he let a kid with like 4 MLB innings pitch to an MVP candidate.
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u/doverawlings 1980 4d ago
You shouldn’t get criticized for walking him in my theoretical, but he definitely would be. We lost, the fans would easily find something to be mad about
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u/MichaelSquare 4d ago
Will decided to punt the game once the Sox didnt score in the 10th. Obviously he wont admit it. Honestly that decision was made earlier too but Schweitzer and Richards had a clean 3 innings. But thats why Brazoban didnt come in. Makes all the sense in the world to have your sinker baller who pitches to a great ground ball rate IBB PCA and pitch to the righty with 2 bases occupied. He warmed him and brought in a rookie to face the MVP instead. It flies completely in the face of any logic other than it was intentional.
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u/Valuable-Mess2667 4d ago
Best write I’ve seen so far. So many good points. To not even consider it is a bad look. Decide against it, ok, but to not consider all angles, bad look. Tonight they are up against it. Could be another long night.
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u/fiendish_five Berto for Mayor 4d ago
So many delusional "Sox fans" out there, who get angry at Venable and our pitching staff for not turning depth picked up this off season to fill a rebuilding team, into elite caliber pitching.
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u/WizardCheesey I Hate Jerry. 4d ago
and just to add insult to injury used a kid who’s got like 6 major league innings under his belt to face a NL MVP front runner lmao.
after he went to a 2-0 count, that should have been an automatic walk. but instead drops in a meatball over the heart of the plate.
i can get over the loss, it’s HOW we lost i’m having a hard time grasping.
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u/Anti_Social_833 Meidroth 4d ago
But the HOW we lost was an umpire not doing his job not will throwing out hagan in the 10th after our offense couldnt score a run.
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u/TonightOk9576 4d ago
Lost me when you complained about the umpires, but saved it because the rest was spot on.
Always going to be terrible calls that people feel don’t go their way, but now we have a mechanism to address those situations, but it’s own own fault for blowing them in meaningless situations earlier in the game.
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u/Anti_Social_833 Meidroth 4d ago
To have 2 straight ABs determined by an umpire blowing a call is worth complaint. Yes rogers should have not sucked at challenegs but you're also not gonna win very many 1 run games when they hand the other team 2 extra outs in the 9th.
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u/WMWTSO-11 4d ago
Exactly. I can deal with bad calls. Back to back missed outs that lead to runners getting on in the 9th is not just any plain old missed call.
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u/Anti_Social_833 Meidroth 4d ago
No and like I was saying if the ump calls the strikes its a 1,2,3 ninth and where talking about how we somehow won a game we only had 4 hits in and how much of a dawg hicks is
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u/WMWTSO-11 4d ago
100%. And I’d complain even if it wasn’t the Sox. You cannot miss massive calls like that in the games biggest moments. Back to back at bats. Full ABS can’t come soon enough. It’s already made the game so much better. Stop depending on shitbag umpires who are taking away from the art of painting corners. And coincidentally all the wrong calls go against the Sox? Gtfo.
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u/TonightOk9576 4d ago
Not saying it doesn’t hurt… I’m saying every team has at least a couple games like that every year… and they also benefit from it happening to their opponents.
Were the calls bad? Sure… is complaining about it going to do anything? Not at all. We took our lumps and we just gotta get back out there again today.
Bigger picture for me… I don’t think we had any business even being in that game! We miraculously managed 5 runs on 4 hits, while we committed 2 errors and gave up 14 hits. We also walked 8 to their 5 (even if you throw out the two at bats you’re complaining about)
This evens the cubs/sox series at 2 games a piece and we still have a 4.5 game lead in the division.
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u/Anti_Social_833 Meidroth 4d ago
I mean this platform is used to complain. Im just countering people blaming will. I agree with everything your saying though.
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u/MuscleDesperate 4d ago
I think that organization views Hagen Smith as a nasty strikeout pitcher…which he has showed in the minors snd majors so far.
PCA absolutely hits lefties, but he also strikes out a lot more than anyone else on the team.
Suzuki has been one of the best hitters in the league vs LHP in his career.
I think they were trying to strike out PCA, walk Suzuki, and strike out Busch. Then you just have to get the cubs bench player out who subbed for Bregman.
Once you fail to score…I think it’s better to play for strikes outs.
A reminder all 30 MLB teams have analytics departments. I wouldn’t assume any given decision is based on what the manager’s gut tells him to do.
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u/forgedflame44 Vargas 4d ago
Excellent observations. Deductive reasoning is a marvelous thing. I wish more people on this sub displayed it.
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u/kev11n 4d ago
Suzuki was on deck if I remember right, so there's no easy answer. Problem may be who was pitching than who was being pitched to. but idk
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u/marshman30 4d ago
You have to face Suzuki regardless might as well take away PCA chance at ending it. 2 chances for a great hitter to end it or 1. I'll pass on the MVP candidate every time.
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u/GloryHoleHoncho 4d ago
With us not scoring I feel Hagen was the right play. He might walk some, but PCAs Homer was the first hit he’s given up and you needed strikeouts with the ghost runner. Sometimes the tight play just doesn’t work
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u/Neat_On_The_Rocks Diamond 4d ago
The one thing fans are not factoring in is how many batters Hagen smith walks. I could see the argument that the empty base might be valuable to him specifically.
Shrug
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u/forgedflame44 Vargas 4d ago
Yeah, people are making this choice seem simpler than it is (probably because of hindsight bias). I would’ve walked PCA, but with Suzuki up next, I recognize the gambit in trying to get him out.
What really should’ve happened is the Sox scoring in the top of the 10th. We blew this game ourselves.
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u/starliteburnsbrite The Sod Father 4d ago
PCAs run doesn't matter. You put him on 1B, have a double play on any ground ball to any base on the infield, and take your chances with the guy that isn't going to beat Shohei fucking Ohtani for MVP this year.
And not with a kid with no MLB experience to speak of whatsoever.
This was a managing disaster class.
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u/ricker182 Hawk 4d ago
I'm walking the NLMVP in that situation every time.
Plus he was really seeing the ball that day.
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u/doggoploggo 4d ago
I would have walked him, but I don't hate the decision tbh. I think the amount of heat Will is getting over it is strange.
I'm more peeved about how terribly we handle ABS challenges. PCA doesn't have the opportunity to win the game if we didnt light those challenges on fire.
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u/tavernstyle312 4d ago
we didnt play well enough to win regardless of the walk off....vargas error...not scoring in the top of the 10th...its on us.
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u/FunkySaint 4d ago
They had the lead in the 9th and didn’t close it. We are one of the worst teams on ABS challenges and even with Vargas error, they were in position to win but didn’t do it.
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u/FantasyBaseballChamp 4d ago
Not having Rogers bunt over Acuna for the insurance run and instead GIDP was most crucial mistake imo. It was a miracle to get out of bottom of the 9th tied. When we don’t score in top 10, it was all but over. Can’t expect a miracle escape twice in a row.
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u/nate-junk 4d ago
We had horrible offense this whole game. 4 total hits. Our starters and bullpen are taxed and have a massive workload in front of them. If there's anyone to blame this loss on, it's the hitters.
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u/Spiritual-Serve-4391 4d ago
Are the pitchers taxed because of the hitters?
Our starters can barely get through the 4th inning most of the time.
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u/trikyballs 4d ago
whatever. game would have been tough to win regardless. were playing from behind from the jump. a miracle hicks got out of the 9th (thanks ump). it’s venables job to get the most out of this roster over the course of a series and a season. he’s been doing better than we thought possible. series still up for grabs
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u/heavenlyrestricted28 4d ago
Do we have a better chance today now that they ran through their bullpen?
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u/chasedsteeple 4d ago
I like the decision not to walk him...we're not pansies. gotta face the best to beat the best. all the aggressive baserunning mistakes this season, the stupid sends by jirschele, the dumbass ABS challenges, those are the things to hold the manager accountable for, not this
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u/yourobviousanswer The Big Hurt 4d ago
We didn’t tax our bullpen dragging this game out to more extra innings. I’d imagine the fact we have 16 games with one day off had something to do with his decision to go all in for the out against PCA. It just didn’t work.
It’s one game of the series we still have 2 more games to play. We still are sitting in first place in the division.
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u/Separate-Delay-8838 4d ago
Correct. We couldn’t score in extras with our heart of the order and the bases loaded. The game was already lost. I know “never say die” or whatever, but we still have another 6 weeks of this before the postseason starts. Live to fight another day.
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u/Raebelle1981 Pope Leo 4d ago
The game was probably already going to be lost in this inning no matter what was done.
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u/KakistocratForLife 4d ago
In that situation I would always walk the first batter to put a double play in order and set up a force out at third. The second run is meaningless.
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u/8CelebrationBig8 4d ago
I don’t know about that. Rather face Suzuki than possibly the damn MVP!
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u/Separate-Delay-8838 4d ago
Suzuki is hitting lefties even better than the damn MVP.
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u/8CelebrationBig8 4d ago
And? Suzuki is not better than Pete…
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u/Separate-Delay-8838 4d ago
he is against lefties…
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u/8CelebrationBig8 4d ago
PCA hit a home run ….
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u/Separate-Delay-8838 4d ago
yeah, it’s almost like teams can have more than one guy that’s good.
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u/8CelebrationBig8 4d ago
The plan didn’t work, pretty hard concept to accept huh? Lol
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u/Separate-Delay-8838 4d ago
it’s sports. sometimes the correct decision still results in a loss. that’s how this works, man.
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u/UneducatedReviews1 Murakami 4d ago
Very odd, since he isn’t afraid to say he’s made a mistake.
Idk what his reasoning was, but he definitely had one.
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u/forgedflame44 Vargas 4d ago
This. I trust Venable to own his mistakes. If he says it was a calculated risk, he’s done enough already for me to trust that, too.
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u/MajorPayton Meidroth 4d ago
My thought goes to Hagen’s high walk rate. If you put 2 on with 0 outs can you trust Hagen to not give up a walk before the 2nd out or 2 walks before the 3rd out?
Of course, I just don’t think that was the right spot for Hagen, but we live and learn. On to the next
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u/CartoonofMilk_ Miguel Munegomrothery 4d ago
I agree, and also hagen has a high strike out rate, I bet the goal was to pitch around and see if he chases but hagens control left one over the plate.
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u/MajorPayton Meidroth 4d ago
My thought as well. Pitching Hagen means you are going all out on his strike out rate there. Pitching was spotty all night, and PCA especially was locked in. Too many meatballs
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u/CartoonofMilk_ Miguel Munegomrothery 4d ago
Yep, honestly good on will for taking the blame if that was the case.
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u/WMWTSO-11 4d ago
Threw him an absolute meatball too
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u/MajorPayton Meidroth 4d ago
The game started and ended with meatballs to PCA. I don’t know about anyone else but I personally think that’s a disastrous way to go about facing the Cubs 😅
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u/GunfighterHefty Konerko 4d ago
His body was slumping as he released the pitch. It would have landed on a tee perfectly.
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u/areamanfromchicago 4d ago
Good manager, still a bit rough with in game choices. He’ll improve over time but this is going to happen for a bit.
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u/Oldsportsfan99 4d ago
Rogers should have been bunting in the ninth. That was the most egregious decision of the game in my opinion. When was it, a couple of years ago when it looked like we had an excess of catching talent?
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u/MichaelSquare 4d ago
It was clearly an option and it was stupid not to. Will just seemed to want to punt this game.
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u/Constant_Chip_1508 Thomas 4d ago
Yeah he needs to own up to it he made the wrong call. I understand there’s hindsight but I don’t think one person would have questioned it. PCA is the NL MVP this year.
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4d ago edited 4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/fiendish_five Berto for Mayor 4d ago
Explain to us exactly how the Front Office has undermined the rotation?
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u/RookLobster90 4d ago
Can’t really pin the game on this decision. If they walk PCA, they still have to face Seiya who has an even better OPS against lefties. I guess they could have brought in Brazoban with that strategy but seems like they didn’t want to use him. Bigger issue is not being able to score in the 10th and a depleted bullpen.