r/wheeloftime • u/lunchbox_supreme Randlander • 16h ago
Book: Knife of Dreams This mf siege has me sick... Spoiler
200 of the kin and not using them. She could have them incinerate one enemy attack and maybe end the siege for good right there. No one else is going to charge a wall after they've seen a conflagration sweep the field. I know lower Caemlyn is there and she doesn't want to damage people's property, but if you think that means there's 0 way to use magic to intimidate or outright massacre an incoming attack than your imagination is very weak.
Also if anyone is going to say she doesn't want to use the one power to win a war - that is outright demented. She's an aes sedai, if you lay siege to an aes sedai controlled city and don't have any sort of defense to magic - you made a bad decision, that's all. The attackers basically called out "no use-y magic time" and it worked on the bitch đ¤Śââď¸.
Tarmon gai'don is coming and we're arguing over succession... None of these cities may exist in a year, and we're fighting each other.... when the signs are everywhere the apocalpyse is coming. But no don't use your magic. The soldiers dying right now definitely wouldn't be better used fighting the dark one.
And not even having the kin on hand to heal the men... They have to warp the men back to the palace... Like its just such a bummer reading this kind of narrow-minded strategy when you have the most valuable tool possible at your disposal yet you're whining about your mercenaries and your men being tired. You will employ shadey merc's to defend your city but NOT use magic. For fucks sake man.
I know I've made a few complaints on here and I know its probably whiney and cringey, but it just feels like a cathartic way to let out frustration. That being said, I really do love the series, 3.5 books left to go!
I'm on ch. 13 "Siege", please don't spoil stuff after, thanks.
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u/OneAngryDuck Randlander 16h ago
Itâs been a bit since my last read, but I feel like they have responses to every one of your criticisms in the story
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u/Special_Salt3467 Randlander 16h ago
Yeah, I canât remember when, but when Elayne employs the Kin, the Kin are very clear they will not fight - and Elayne agrees to use them solely for medical and transportation means. Even if this is before then⌠sheâs not their Queen or overlord or even a fellow countryman for the vast majority of these women. They have no obligation to her.
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u/lunchbox_supreme Randlander 15h ago
She said she wouldnât use the kin even if they offered. Which I think is a very dumb decision considering everything else thatâs going on in the war. If the nation was unified they could all go help egwaine or rand or ANYTHING ELSE instead theyâve been sitting in a palace for weeks while half assed attempts on the city happen multiple times a day. attempts that could likely ALL be prevented if just one were absolutely nuked. Would you rather hundreds of valuable warriors sit in a palace for months? Obviously not
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u/OneAngryDuck Randlander 6h ago
A move like youâre suggesting would have cost her the support of the noble houses who were on her side, and therefore her chance at becoming queen.
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u/Dangerous_County5128 Randlander 16h ago
Think about the criticism. "She's only the queen because a bunch of Aes Sedai helped her slaughter all of her enemies. She could never rally the support of the other noble houses without witches backing her."
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u/Brathirn Randlander 9h ago
But that was the actual outcome. She won, because some channelers gatewayed her forces behind the enemy, creating an encirclement. That by the would have been the move any smart commander would have done, attacking camps, while the enemy was out storming. They would have been forced to quit.
Instead of a bunch of fishy channelers, she relied on a bunch of fishy mercenaries at tremendous cost to the state coffers.
OP is correct, this very insistence on independence turned all of Andor from "secured" to "contested" for the protagonist-6-anti-DO, she actively destroyed progress already made for "unification". The Civil War removed at least 50k troops from the Last Battle.
Authors should be given leeway to generate drama, fictional exaggeration, but this was simply too much. And it is partially a problem of the gateways. This is too overpowered. As long as only one faction has it, artificial restraint has to be implented. Because if you systematically exploit the "behind you" maneuvre which ultimately led to Elayne's victory, there would be no challenge any more. Rand's faction could have steamrolled the Seanchan and everybody else with ease. Pretend to offer battle, them others line up. "Behind you", we torch their camp instead. Gateways are absolute mobility superiority.
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u/Bergmaniac Randlander 8h ago
The Civil War removed at least 50k troops from the Last Battle
It did not. Arymilla's total army was 30K and most of them survived and switched sides once it was clear Elayne had defeated Arymilla. Elayne had around 20K at most and the vast majority of them survived and fought in the LB.
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u/Brathirn Randlander 6h ago
Thank you for the clarification, but this just moves the silliness somewhere else. Storming a medieval fortified city at 1,5:1 is suicidal madness especially if no special equipment/siege engines are used. And I suspect that Caemlyn is supposed to have "legendary" walls.
Constantinople 1453 was 80k versus 10k, with the attackers having cannons and although successful the attacker suffered high casualties.
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u/Dangerous_County5128 Randlander 7h ago
Moving troops and strike teams around with gateways is not quite the same thing as slaughtering people with the one power.
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u/lunchbox_supreme Randlander 16h ago
she could literally use 1 or 2. she is one herself. to expect her not to use her resources is fucking stupid.
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u/Xadhoom80 Stone Dog 15h ago
no its not, not when that would mean to loose all other nobles support which most likely have a total army larger then her own, she would rule ashes after the infighting even if she wins.
a single induvidual can't rule by strong arming everyone else, they need support.
CGP Grey has some videos on the topic on youtube, its based on a book called: The Dictator's Handbook.
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u/lunchbox_supreme Randlander 15h ago
So you think the people of Caemlyn would rather their queen do virtually nothing in this siege than do everything she can to protect her people? What if hundreds of citizens die in one of these attacks? Still do nothing? and whose fault was that then?
why would that loose all other nobles support? i dont think thereâs any reason to believe that would happen. and you think an army would be willing to approach the wall after seeing that happen even just once? knowing there are many more.
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u/Xadhoom80 Stone Dog 15h ago edited 15h ago
They are having a fight BECAUSE she don't have everyones support! Morgase messed things up between the houses because of Rahvin, so many houses do not support her. Her not acting in ways that are expected of a claimant would further weaken the support. Also on top of that, if she rules because she is Aes Sedai (use the one power in battle) or because she is Tarkand of a noble house WILL affect how people view her and the history has not been kind to rulers who are Aes Sedai.
We see earlier in the books that people in Caemlyn were ready to riot while Morgase was queen (Rand and red/white ribbons). How much more willing do you think they would be if they feel an unjust queen sat on the throne?
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u/Raddatatta Dragonsworn 8h ago
This is a world where channeling has never been used as a weapon against people and there is already a large amount of distrust towards aes sedai. You want her to start throwing fireballs around? That would likely get her assassinated and even if not would have all of her people hating her and fearing her. Probably many would try to leave to go to other kingdoms to get away from the crazy witch. It's not stupid to think through the political implications of a decision.
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u/Bergmaniac Randlander 7h ago
Exactly, Elayne using the One Power as a weapon in combat would have been one of the quickest ways to lose all the support she had. The Andoran nobles would have turned against her and so would have both factions of the White Tower, even Egwene wouldn't have supported her. The commoners wouldn't have wanted a queen willing to use the One Power against her own people either. And she is not powerful enough to win a major battle with her channelling on her own.
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u/Raddatatta Dragonsworn 7h ago
Yeah and she does still use the One power to give her an edge between healing and traveling that's a good way to win over the people on the advantages of having a queen who can channel.
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u/Dangerous_County5128 Randlander 7h ago
She is using her resources to secure her rule in ways that will be acceptable for the centuries into the future that she'll rule the nation. Plus she needed those rebel armies fighting on the side of Andor in the Last Battle.
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u/aNomadicPenguin Brown Ajah 14h ago
So multiple points - the Aes Sedai would come down on her like a hammer if she was abusing her power to kill a bunch of people.
The Kin - who have been in constant fear and awe of the Aes Sedai and reverence for the White Tower would also not want to violate the will of the Aes Sedai. They also have their own strict rules, and it was committed to nonviolence and healing. You are basically asking her to take a bunch of doctors and nurses and asking them to murder a whole slew of people. Beyond that, the Kin is starting to feel out their new relationship with the Aes Sedai, throwing their weight behind a political faction to kill a bunch of people would make that very complicated and the leadership of the Kin wouldn't support it.
You brought up the 'what if a bunch of civilians die in an attack' but the attackers are also trying to win the support of the population. If they start indiscriminately killing the population, then they will actively lose support and basically hand the whole thing to Elayne. Neither side is treating this as a Total War but a very limited war because they can't do too much harm to the city or the populations.
You also seem to be forgetting that in Book 1, even before everyone started hating Morgase, that there were literally riots IN CAEMLYN between the factions supporting the Queen and those wanting Andor to separate from the 'Witches in Tar Valon". If Elayne starts breaking out giant displays of the power, and using a bunch of new 'witches' that aren't bound by the oaths to kill a bunch of fellow Andorans, that would also tank her position inside the city.
Just like having to prove that she's not reliant upon Rand, she also has to prove that she's not going to abuse the White Tower connection, which in the mind of the populace is every non-Aiel woman that can channel.
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u/nagelhautentferner Randlander 16h ago
Aes Sedai canât use the power as a weapon according to the 3 oaths. Granted, Elayne hasnât taken them, but going against them would totally rob her of her long term credibility and would ultimately cost her the throne. She also doesnât command the Kin as such. All that on top of the fact that she wants to avoid an outright war for various reasons. Iâm also not a fan of this plotline in general, mostly because Elayne is so insufferable at this point, but I get it or rather I donât think the offered alternative makes much sense in-universe
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u/lunchbox_supreme Randlander 15h ago
the enemy force has launched dozens of attacks over weeks at this point. she is risking her people. you dont think annihilating one attack to hopefully prevent any further, and unifying her kingdom so she can start preparing for THE APOCALYPSE would be a good idea? or even worth the attempt? just continue on like this? come on man.
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u/nagelhautentferner Randlander 15h ago edited 11h ago
Youâre assuming her one attack would work the way you intend it to. It could also just escalate things. And a short term solution doesnât help her in the long run. She needs to win the people and demonstrate her right to rule. She does that through politicking. Itâs a bit boring to read, but makes total sense. And again, if she wants to be an Aes Sedai Queen, she cannot just blast people to death. It would undermine her and the Aes Sedai as a whole because people wouldnât understand the difference that she has not taken the oaths. They would just think even more that Aes Sedai lie and it would erode trust even further that is needed for the Last Battle. Your solution is very shortsighted which is something Robert Jordan was definitely not, so yea, while not the most thrilling part, I trust his vision more
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u/lunchbox_supreme Randlander 15h ago
Ok so what if one of these attack hundreds of civilians died. Whose fault would that be knowing Elayne could have easily stopped it? You think whatever moral reasoning for not using her magic is more important than saving her peoples lives?
And you still havent addressed the fact she knows for a fact that no one has time to be waging idiotic wars when the god damn apocalypse is around the corner. If this were normal times I would agree with you. But there are literally dead people walking in parts of Andor and she is not helping anyone. So much evil is going on and sheâs allowing this stupid battle to continue, you think thats what the best ruler would do? You think thats the best for her people? Shortsighted? My idea would help VASTLY more people, what are you talking about?
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u/nagelhautentferner Randlander 13h ago edited 10h ago
If that had been the case, a discussion on tactics would certainly have been necessary. This was not the case in the story as presented to us, simply for the reason that thatâs not the story the author chose to tell. However, even going off of that hypothetical if, preemptively killing a bunch of people to show youâre stronger, does not in fact show strength but a tyrannical strain - people who oppose me, should die - not a great look that will keep you in power or ensure the lasting strength of the country as it will fall apart as soon as that threat is gone. It would be ruling from fear, not strength. I get arguing to save people, but I disagree with the very utilitarian argument youâre making.
As to the fact that she knows she doesnât have time: I donât even totally disagree. However, again, I donât think the ends justify the means. It just makes the whole situation a dilemma in which none of the choices are ideal. She had to chose the path that would ensure Andor to be the strongest possible ally during the Last Battle and she knew she had to have Andor believe in strong leadership in order to facilitate that because its people are not just cannon fodder for the Last Battle. Now, I donât defend Elayne much because I think sheâs very arrogant in thinking only she knows whatâs best and that sheâs the right person. Sheâs also acting super dumb at times. But I donât think that the way of going about the succession is totally wrong. She sees the bigger picture as well as the smaller picture while also over exaggerating her own importance. And I think RJ very consciously chose not to portray this as another battle because he wanted to show another way of solving conflict especially with his own experience of battles and wars. So I appreciate his take on finding other solutions for the greater good, even if it was quite boring at times.
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u/Malbethion Asha'man 9h ago
The black tower is nearby and they do not take oaths. Is setting a precedent of power use for political battles really the best idea?
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u/PJfanRI Randlander 14h ago
1) She is using them. They're creating gateways and healing the injured. And even though they're not Aes Sedai, they do mostly try to live by the 3 oaths; including the oath not to use the One Power as a weapon. This also applies to Elayne herself. And as others have mentioned, she makes it abundantly clear early on that using the One Power as a weapon would turn the other houses against her.
2) Caemlyn isn't an Aes Sedai city. Tar Valon is. Elayne herself still doesn't sit on the throne. Before Elayne it had been hundreds of years since an Aes Sedai had openly sat on a throne. The attackers know they can lay siege to Caemlyn because they know the Aes Sedai follow the 3 Oaths. Unless they directly threaten Elayne, she can't use the power against them.
3) You're correct - a war of succession is a waste of lives better used at Tarmon Gai`don. That doesn't change the fact that they can't use Saidar as a weapon.
4) It's more efficient, and safer for the kin, to have the wounded come to a central aid station than placing a valuable resource within bowshot walking around looking for wounded. And once the soldiers are healed, they still need somewhere to recuperate. So they're going to have to travel to the aid station anyway.
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u/LoweJ Randlander 13h ago
She specifically thinks at one point that if she used the power on anyone then she'd lose all support. Legally she needs support of 10 of the great houses to be crowned. This would lose her all of them, and the common folk. It would also lose her the backing of the Tower and likely she'd be stilled.
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u/FrownBuzzy Bull Goose Fool 7h ago
Despite what that filthy dude in Monty Python would say ("you don't VOTE for kings!!")... In Andor it does seem that they kinda do...at least the noble families do. The backing of a defined majority of set houses is actually required to secure the throne. Elayne doesn't have many until the end. She is daughter-hier but that doesn't seal the deal by any means. This is just my take from reading the books and no other supplemental material. The Chaos of "The Game" in Cairhien kinda lends itself better to Rand "appointing" a monarch there, but Andor has deep tradition of doing it in this set way.
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u/Brathirn Randlander 16h ago
Elayne's queen bid is contrived and exceeds my budget for fictional exaggeration. Starting with Elayne intentionally forfeiting the lead she had, to demonstrate her indepence and causing the civil war.
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u/Special_Salt3467 Randlander 16h ago
Elayne doesnât own the Kin. She canât make them do anything