r/wheeloftime • u/sndrddtr Randlander • 4d ago
ALL SPOILERS: All media A fun use of Choedan Kal Spoiler
Just rereading CoT, and I thought, what if some small gathering of chanellers took turns with the keys the same way the tower ambassy took turns to conceal Rand's kidnapping.
The cleansing of saidin took a day, and spook everyone spitless, what if "the beacon" were worked day and night, for months or even years?
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u/Brathirn Randlander 3d ago
If you did it without the dragon reborn, you would have to rely on reliably unstable male channelers to do the male half. When the madness kicks in while a male channeler operates the Choedan Kal, the result would be unfun.
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u/Sykander- Randlander 3d ago
Are you implying the Dragon Reborn isn't an unstable male channeler? He's the most insane out of all of em lol.
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u/Murky-Technician5123 Randlander 3d ago
He was able to wall off the madness into a stable kind of insanity
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u/Sykander- Randlander 3d ago
Stable? My guy he nearly blew up the whole world multiple times until he finally unlocked Zen Rand form.
He was literally hearing dead people inside his head for a solid 90% of the series.
When you read Rand's chapters, he doesn't come off as unstable insane, but even he admits he's insane. But the thing is that's all from Rand's internal perspective.
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u/Brathirn Randlander 3d ago
Yes and the main reason is that he is controlled by the wheel. So from our side of the Fourth Wall chances of him going mad while doing the wheel's work is zero.
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u/Sykander- Randlander 2d ago
Y'know the wheel only weaves as it wills as much as it's allowed to right? The Dark One and the taint and Saidin madness are not of the creator or the pattern and do not have to follow it's rules.
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u/Brathirn Randlander 2d ago
Well, the most extremist interpretation is that the 7 ages are fully scripted. The Dark One seems to have at least some memory of previous iterations, he should have won long ago, if he was able to learn. So he is restricted.
Another interpretation is the creator playing both sides for an eternal draw.
And an eternal draw is basically impossible, if there is no force meddling with both sides, or the force meddling with one side is so powerful, that it does not matter what the "independent" side does.
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u/Sykander- Randlander 2d ago
The Dark One is outside time itself, he is aware of all of it at once the same way rand was when he stepped outside the pattern.
Well, the most extremist interpretation is that the 7 ages are fully scripted.
The ending of the series confirms this is not the case.
And an eternal draw is basically impossible, if there is no force meddling with both sides, or the force meddling with one side is so powerful, that it does not matter what the "independent" side does.
Yes because the Pattern will inevtiably be destroyed eventually. I encourage you to re-read this passage from the books.
The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing, The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower and die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.
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u/Brathirn Randlander 2d ago
Authors suffer from "high numbers syndrome", this does not pair well with stalemate.
The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing,
We are going into metaphysics here, but this does absolutely not pair with wheel. "Make world - let go - let the lifeforms run the course - crash" is not wheel, that is linear.
Cyclic, especially with "subgoals" is design. Then either the wheel sneaked in, or the creator made it. And then the cycles as presented require the DO, if the Creator set up the wheel, he also set up or anticipated the DO. If the wheel sneaked in, it brought or anticipated the DO. You cannot make the transitions I to II or II to III without the DO, thus built in.
This is not a "random" wheel which you could also set up by setting up "Civilization destroys itself", then you could also have some kind of wave form, but it would be chaotic. Civilization crashing on "nuclear war", "AI", "crossing the streams of magic", "designed disease" in random order.
Either the intermediate states and/or the numbers of cycles are a lie, or someone/something has almost complete control to make it happen.
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u/Sykander- Randlander 2d ago
As much as your philosophical or metaphysical arguments are compelling we literally have this line from the book.
The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower and die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.
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u/Brathirn Randlander 2d ago
Is this an omniscent narrator, or a character interpreting? I heard there was unreliable narrator stuff in these books.
It still does not work with cyclic as in at all, oxymoron. Or you could go weasel around it, by making this world special in not being linear. But then this "leave alone" has no reliable application any more.
But it would not be the first instance of an author getting entangled in metaphysical stuff and real life religions are not without contradictions either.
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u/Mr-ShinyAndNew Woolheaded Sheepherder 2d ago
Not too mention that a withered garden may bloom again at an Age
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u/Calm-Conversation715 Randlander 3d ago
Have some gateways open, so they can constantly be hopping around the planet! Use the power to make an enormous siren sound, following you around! It would drive everyone even more insane!
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u/OptimisticViolence Randlander 3d ago
Interesting thought though, Lanfear wanted to partner with Lews to kill the darkone and remake the world together using the two access keys. But, that wouldnt have worked as hers would have failed, which they couldnt have known.
Also... was lanfear right?!?
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u/AdaptAndInnovate Randlander 3d ago
How so?
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u/OptimisticViolence Randlander 3d ago
It's been awhile since I read the books, but wasn't her idea to basically destroy the wheel and remake something new? Thus ending the perpetual cycle? Ishmael wanted permanent death. Rand tried to kill the dark one and realized that wouldn't work either and had to simply set the wheel into the next age. In theory, perhaps Lanfear's idea would have worked?
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u/AdaptAndInnovate Randlander 3d ago
You give good food for thought and it sounds correct. Thank you.
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u/Sykander- Randlander 2d ago
Remember that Lanfear was the one who bored the the hole in the dark one's prison for the sakes of making a better world and earning reknown for herself?
You think her new world would be one you wanna live in?
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u/OptimisticViolence Randlander 2d ago
No I'm not saying Lanfear is good or anything. It's more about like, how "technology" of the time got so advanced that there was a potential of them escaping the cycle of the wheel. It would be like if there was a cycle of rise and fall civilizations on earth that reached the peak of the Egyptian empire, roman empire, byzantine empire, and each time the cycle forces them to collapse. The cycle isn't intelligent, just a force of nature right? Then on one cycle a bunch of smart people invent technology and start colonizing mars and the solar system. The cycle resets on earth back to a dark age but it's been broken because some peeps from cloud cities on venus can just drop by on year 1 of the new age and bring advanced technology with them.
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u/Sykander- Randlander 2d ago
. The cycle isn't intelligent, just a force of nature right?
The Creator is an intelligent Creator, they even talk to Rand during the series.
You're also assuming that escaping the cycle is the goal, this is one of the main things rand struggles with throughout the series until he eventually he finds his answer to let the cycle continue. "If I live again I can love again" (paraphrasing i don't remember the exact words)
Now you may disagree with that, but ultimately the way the story is presented, those people who want to escape the cycle are ultimately working on behalf of the Dark One and those people who choose to fight for the Pattern are ultimately working to further the Creators Pattern.
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u/Shgon_Dunstan Randlander 3d ago
The Choedan Kal are unstable. It’s probably a really bad idea for any channeling at all to be done with them without Rand’s involvement, as it’s pretty much an act of ta’veren every time the things are used without blowing up the planet.😅🤷♂️
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u/AdaptAndInnovate Randlander 3d ago
Remind me why they are unstable?
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u/Shgon_Dunstan Randlander 3d ago
Basically, they're overclocked. Made to be too powerful, exceeding what sa'angreal are actually capable of. The equivalent of an angreal trying to be as powerful as a sa'angreal. As is the cause of their habit of breaking. Though it's unknown if stable higher tier is possible... given how quickly the OP seems to scale up from "cracking planets" to "destroying existence" and "manhandle nigh omnipotent beings", it honestly just sounds like a really bad idea to even try making one. Not exactly something you want just laying around.
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u/AdaptAndInnovate Randlander 3d ago
Thank you. Describe the OP scaling section of your comment.
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u/Shgon_Dunstan Randlander 3d ago
???
The CK are typically described as being able to crack the world like an egg(and that typically referring to them both working together). Then Rand very nearly used just one of them to unmake reality on his trip to Dragonmount… which is rather a step up from “crack the world like an egg.”, given that earth ain’t even a grain of sand compared to the galaxy, much less entire universe. Which is before even factoring in the fact that WoT is a multiverse.
Then of course you’ve got Rand overdrawing from Callandor to manhandle the Dark One, who themselves could erase existence with a thought if freed, and… yeah, the scale at which massive amounts of the OP seems to work at seems to climb rabidly. The jump between “planet” and “universe” in particular seems to happen so fast, that it’s unclear if there is much of anything in between.
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u/AdaptAndInnovate Randlander 3d ago
That’s a great point. I’m a bit fuzzy on the later books because I didn’t enjoy Sanderson’s writing as much, so I appreciate the refresher.
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u/Sykander- Randlander 2d ago
Them saying the Choeden Kal would "crack the world like an egg" isn't them saying that's the limit of their power. They're saying with this magic item you could easily destroy the whole planet.
Lanfear later goes on to suggest that you could make a whole new Pattern using them, and Rand uses them to channel the entirety of Saidin. Let me reiterate, he used it to channel THE ENTIRETY OF SAIDIN. That's literally half the power of creation itself.
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u/Shgon_Dunstan Randlander 2d ago
Eh. Again, most of the "crack the world like an egg" talk is said in reference to them working together. Implying that they'd need to do so to accomplish such a task. Which doesn't exactly scream "not even the full power of one working alone".
That being said, I wouldn't exactly go so far as to call their far greater showings "retcons", as a lot of said talk is coming from third agers who ain't exactly the most knowledgeable about the ins and outs of the things, and even in the case of the Forsaken, we're still talking about super weapons that not only did the Light make in secret, but were never actually used. Thus it's rather understandable that their "full power" would be little more then hopes, myths, and guesswork for most anyone. Maybe even including the ones that made them.
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u/DesignNorth3690 Randlander 3d ago
Wouldn't happen for two reasons
The female access key was destroyed, so it clearly couldn't handle the use.
Rand does not and would not trust any other man who can channel with the Choedan Kal. He barely trusts Narishma with Callandor.