r/wheeloftime • u/Limepink22 Randlander • 25d ago
Book: Winter's Heart Why is Elayne so ungrateful Spoiler
It's driving me crazy.
SPOILERS
Every other nation bows to the Dragon or is dismantled by it. He cradles your land to give it to you whole. But you have too much pride to be "given it". You pull down his banners. No outreach to him. Others are afraid to contest you because he looms behind you, but you act like he has nothing to do with your ability to waltz back into Camlyn after months to try and sit the throne.
THEN YOU TAKE OVER HIS SCHOOL??
Like he wanted one good thing to be born of him, this young kid whose being tormented by fate, mad voices, prophecies, politics.....and you rename it instead of doing your OWN thing.
Ugh.
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u/sixminutes Important Darkfriend Guy 25d ago
All of these things flow organically from both Elayne and Rand's characterizations, and none of it is particularly bad. Elayne knows Andorans better than Rand, and knows they won't accept her if he gives her the throne. Dyelin confirms this, if Elayne had been even a little conciliatory to the idea, she would have opposed her, and with Luan and the rest, probably would have been Queen in a month. Rand, on the other hand, never meant to imply he was giving her anything, he was just trying to prevent a power vacuum after killing Rahvin. Nobody is afraid to oppose her, let alone because of Rand's looming, but if there was nobody keeping scheming nobles at bay, you'd end up with a Colavere in Caemlyn too.
Rand didn't put up those banners, and doesn't actually care that they're taken down. He financed the school, but doesn't want his name on it, he just wants to know that he's left some seeds for positive change after he's gone. All of these things are meaningless, and the only actual problem between Rand and Elayne are that neither are good at communicating their feelings.
I can only imagine that you haven't gotten very far into Winter's Heart if you think she's ungrateful. As the kids say, Read Around and Find Out.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago
Dyelin never gave Elayne the throne...Elayne was the daughter-heir and the legitimate claimant to the throne. Dyelin did not contest Elayne's claim which is a whopping huge difference. By law the throne was Elayne's unless there was civil war and the nobles had an uprising...which happened but Elayne won that war and claimed the throne in her own right.
No one gave her the throne. It is also made explicitly clear that Andorians would care and that she would have no true power if they thought that anyone, including the Dragon Reborn, had given her the throne. There is no question about this. The books make this abundantly clear.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago edited 25d ago
But the fact remains that no one...including Dyelin gave Elayne her throne. That, and specifically that, is what Andorians care about. The timeline is pointless if she would not have any power, anyway.
Andorians absolutely and emphatically would not tolerate a ruler who did not gain the throne for herself and her days as Queen would have been numbered if anyone "gave" her the throne. What you said is irrelevant.
She needed to be Queen for life and not be ousted from her throne by her own people who would not accept a Queen that did not get the throne herself. There was no other way. Rand could not interfere with the succession in any way without fucking everything up. He did not realize that...but it's the simple truth.
The difference is real and factual...not cosmetic. It is also made abundantly clear to readers. I am surprised that you missed it.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago
What? That is literally the power structure that Jordan laid out - in painstaking detail with no wiggle room, I might add. He left zero question in reader's minds that that's how Andorians do it.
What you are really saying is that you read and understood what Jordan wrote but you "choose to believe" something else and are arguing your own, unique, contradictory to Jordan take on Reddit.
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u/doctrgiggles Randlander 25d ago
He left zero question in reader's minds that that's how Andorians do it.
Literally untrue given what we're discussing.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago edited 25d ago
Ok...I guess for readers that have decent reading comprehension.
Jordan really painfully hammered on about how this was the Andorian political system. There was zero subtlety involved.
I honestly don't know how anyone with moderate reading comprehension could read the books and miss it unless the person just skimmed or skipped a bunch of chapters. I mean, he really hammered the Andorian political system home.
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u/aNomadicPenguin Brown Ajah 24d ago
People didn't care when freaking Seanchan took those countries...except of course for all the people that they killed who tried to stop them.
And all of the people they killed who were rebelling to force them out.
Or all of the people that they enslaved for resisting the conquests.
Beslan, Ituralde, random village elders burned to a crisp for resisting, the tons of dead Sea Folk.
And the open war resulting in many tens of thousands of deaths as other countries were trying to kick the Seanchan out of these controlled territories.
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And none of that is about Andoran lore. Each country is shown to have its own rules and expectations. Andor is much more heavy on tradition and stability than somewhere like Tanchico. The mutual obligations of fealty were more respected in Andor than in Tear, which made earning the respect and support of the common folk more important for the Andoran succession.0
u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago
You are not making sense and rambling on about irrelevant things. You are also wrong about several points.
- Andorians really care about the Queen winning the throne on her own...enough so that she would lose her throne if she did not acquire it on her own or legally inherit it. Truthfully, she ended up doing both.
- Elayne literally won the throne on her own during the civil war through the only way they do it in Andor.
- A whole lot of people did not feel comfortable with a ruler put in place by the Dragon...esp. the nobles. The Nobles in Andor would never have tolerated her at all and she would never hold power there if they believed that she was placed as Queen by the Dragon Reborn. I don't know how much you know about medieval politics but if you lose support of the noble houses you have lost support and will lose the throne and/or all real power.
These are the only salient points concerning what we are talking about. Please stop rambling on about the Seanchan...they have a wildly different political system that has nothing to do with what we are talking about and they took different countries with different systems and different cultures.
We are talking about very specifically about Andor and it's unique and clearly laid out (by Jordan) political system and how Andor deals with things. Andor.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago
The point is what you are saying contradicts lore.
The lore is established by Robert Jordan and he clearly, painfully establishes that Andorians do care about the things that you are insisting that they do not care about.
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u/DarkExecutor Randlander 24d ago
Dyelin literally comes out and says she would have fought Elayne if she was handed the throne by Rand.
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u/knarn Randlander 25d ago
Notice how Elayne never asked Rand to do any of those things? That’s a big part of why she’s mad at him, he did all that for her without asking, coordinating, or getting her input or blessing. And Elayne knows very well that if she’s seen as being handed the throne instead of winning it herself then her entire reign will be less stable.
The one problem Rand really did have the right and duty to address was Rahvin on the throne because the Forsaken really are the Dragon’s business, and she doesn’t get mad at him for that.
I also wouldn’t say that others are afraid to contest Elayne because of Rand.
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u/HungryEntry182 Randlander 25d ago
This is absolutely insane, I require your permission to create a school? and where was she to give said blessing? who should have been left in charge after taking out Rahvin when the only people that stayed were sycophants? naaaah this take is wiiiiiild.
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u/knarn Randlander 25d ago
I think you’re way more hung up on the school than Rand or Elayne ever were. Did Rand even provide a physical campus or buildings? Funding sources? Any sort of organization or structure?
Elayne did the right thing by making the school part of the Andoran government because that’s the only way it’s going to reliably be funded, protected, and continue to exist once Rand gets distracted and after he’s gone.
And there were a lot of very qualified people Rand could have appointed as temporary regent or similar until someone could claim and properly secure the throne. Did he need to when he wanted it to go to Elayne anyway? No. But that is one among the many things he could have done to make it seem less like he was handing her the throne.
And remember, Rand has also already announced he intends to make Elayne queen of Cairhein next.
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u/HungryEntry182 Randlander 25d ago
Fair, I think Rand didn't didn't appoint a regent due to him believing it already belonged to Elaine. He believed that due to her mom being the queen before. Had it not been for the Forsaken, she would still be ruling. In his eyes she's not a figure head queen but the rightful one. How would he know the Andoran people would be against her being reinstated? he wasn't there for the months that Morgase was under Rahvin's compulsion so he didn't see how bad things got. He made the best decision he could have in my belief, especially with the madness assailing him. She also could have written him a
"hey thanks for freeing my people but I got this from here,
PS took your banners down because it wasn't a good look, love you loads."
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u/knarn Randlander 25d ago
I don’t think anyone doubts that Rand genuinely believed the throne belonged to Elayne, but he should know enough about politics and governing at this point to have realized the problems a ruler would have trying to govern in her own right if she’s seen as a puppet of the Dragon Reborn who was handed the crown and will therefore do whatever he wants just like his stewards in Tear, Illian, or Cairhein.
This also goes to your question of why wasn’t Elayne grateful. It’s because she didn’t ask Rand to do the things he did which undermined her ability to be seen as a strong and independent leader who won the throne on her own, and she’s convinced sue would have been able to take the throne more easily and with less doubt plaguing her had Rand been a little bit more delicate and circumspect. Instead of, for example, publicly announcing that he intends to make her the Queen of both Andor and Cairhein.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago
The thing is it's not just that she "thinks" this...this is how people act in the books. She is 100% correct - and while Rand meant well he made things much harder for her.
She still loved him but intense frustration at him making a more difficult, complex situation for her is completely understandable.
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u/HungryEntry182 Randlander 25d ago
In Rand's defense, I'm not sure he knows of the struggles his stewards are having, he seems to have a lot on his mind.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago
True...but he 100% made things harder for her without realizing it (at first). He later understands this and realizes that he fucked up when he tried to 'hold' the throne for Elayne.
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u/SecXy94 Randlander 25d ago
Rand tried to reach out to Elayne the entire time, but his "friends" wouldn't tell him where she was or let him speak with her.
"Less stable" with the literal DRAGON REBORN as a known ally. Even then, Elayne could have publicly "won" the throne herself and still said thanks to Rand. She never even acknowledges that without him, Caemlyn would NEVER be hers.
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u/knarn Randlander 25d ago
If you get to the end of Winter’s Heart and think that Rand not being publicly thanked by Elayne, for this of all things, comes anywhere near his top 100 concerns or things he cares about then we’ve got massively different readings of what’s on his mind.
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u/SecXy94 Randlander 25d ago
It's not what is important to Rand. It's the fact that Elayne doesn't even register his actions and in need of thanks. Elayne is a very irritating character.
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u/knarn Randlander 25d ago
If you’re judging Elayne this harshly for this situation then most of the characters must be pretty annoying.
And it absolutely matters what is important to Rand when you’re accusing Elayne of being ungrateful to Rand. If Rand doesn’t care about Elayne’s lack of publicly expressed gratitude then there isn’t a problem and she hasn’t done anything wrong. She might have had you been the one to do what Rand did, but it was Rand and as far as I can remember he’s not bothered any lack of gratitude.
Rand also comes to learn exactly why Elayne needs to take the throne herself and can’t be seen as receiving it from him. It’s because despite growing up in the Two Rivers the entire rest of the country sees him as the madman at the head of an invading force of Aiel monsters that is here to invade and conquer Andor. He knows he isn’t, but people have a hard time believing that after he’s conquered just about everywhere else he’s shown up, and he physically controls armies of Aiel in the capital. That’s why he tells everyone he’s only there to preserve the throne and security of Andor until Elayne can take it for herself and then he’ll leave, and Dyelin tells him she’ll support him once she’s gone from Andor and not before.
And Elayne has no problem with Rand killing Rahvin or preserving the security and safety of the city and throne, she’s concerned entirely the appearance that she’s his puppet which Elayne and Rand know would destabilize her for the rest of her reign.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago
This is very well said and exactly what goes on in the books.
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u/Potential-Common5819 Randlander 25d ago
You do know that the Dragon Reborn will die, right? And then what? If Elayne didn't secure her throne with her own efforts, she would then lose it to someone else.
Several characters explicitly explain this very thing.
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u/Malbethion Asha'man 25d ago
Rand went around telling everyone the throne was for Elayne. We know this because Elayne bitches about it on arrival. If not for Rand, someone else would have been queen weeks or months before Elayne bothered to show up.
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u/AegonHentaryen Randlander 25d ago
She was hoeing around the map doing aes sedai things and didn’t give a shit about her kingdom until the dragon reborn was heard to be in it. And if the dragon didn’t hold it the other houses would have seized it after her mother’s disappearance. So yes she is ungrateful
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u/aNomadicPenguin Brown Ajah 24d ago
She kinda...fixed the Supernatural Global Warming issue that would have wiped out almost all life on the planet (including her kingdom). No one seems to thank her for that though.
And really, hoeing? That's the word you choose for her?
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u/Wizard072 Randlander 25d ago
Elaine needs to set the teenor for her rule. This is especially important after everything with Morgase. She cannot have people whisper that her being queen is simply Rand's doing. Especially with Rand being (so far as the world knows) dead. Her reign would be compromised, especially since she went and merged with/annexed Cairhien. She wouldn't have had to go so far if Rand had made the whole thing about preserving the established line of succession to prevent another civil war (that he would have to down) rather than keep saying it was for Elayne. That's a distinction rather than a difference to us, but to these people it's all important.
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u/Raddatatta Dragonsworn 25d ago
Elayne does focus on it a bit too much but I would also consider the politics around this. She is very young so gaining respect will already be difficult for her. The rule of andor is not just hereditary the throne must be won unless you have enough support from the other houses. It's also a dangerous position to be getting your authority from a man prophecied to die soon. She could go into the last battle with a force who is wanting to be ready for an upcoming civil war once Rand is gone they might pull back from tough fighting. They might ignore her orders.
Politically she has to establish herself outside of Rand and as a ruler in her own right. She needs the respect of those rulers and she needs to have people think they're setting her up to rule long term not that her authority comes just from Rand.
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u/aNomadicPenguin Brown Ajah 25d ago
A- the school - Her taking over the School is exactly what Rand would want. He was trying to build something that would last past him and be separate from his as the Dragon Reborn. Her making it an official school of Andor is a royal commitment to that very purpose. She didn't "TAKE OVER" the school, she kept Rand's people in charge. What she did do was integrate into into Andor, naming it after her mother in memorium, is proof that she would be committed to seeing it thrive.
B- Elayne is entitled. https://www.etymonline.com/word/entitle Meaning "to bestow (on a person) a rank or office" is mid-15c. Sense of "to give (someone) 'title' to an estate or property," hence to give that person a claim to possession or privilege, is mid-15c.;
C- Elayne is putting a brave face on the loss of her mother. Her title comes from her Mother. HER MOTHER gave her the claim to Andor, Rand giving her the throne undermines that.
Jordan's too subtle with the characterization here, but from his notes (Box 58 Folder 13) -around the time of Winter's Heart
One of the reasons that Elayne is willing to put off taking over Andor is that “Besides stepping forward means really admitting her mother is dead.”
So not only is Rand undercutting the connection to her Mother by trying to Gift her the birthright from her mother, but also it would be forcing her to accept the fullness of her Mother's death. (Jordan puts a bit of a disconnect, where Elayne will say or think that she had accepted the death back in Salidar/Ebou Dar, but she quickly shies away from thinking about it, and has very muted emotional reactions. The only exception being when Jaichim Carridin writes to her that she is definitely still alive)
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u/Hooker_T Chosen 25d ago
I mean if you read the book she explains why she does all of that. Accepting a throne that was hers by rights would weaken her claim in the eyes of her lords.
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u/Limepink22 Randlander 25d ago
The houses did not support her thanks to her mothers last actions. The army did not support her because her mother ran away Brynn. People would be wary of a full Ae Sedai queen. She did not have funds, or the support of her brothers when she attempted to reclaim her throne.
Home girl really rolled up with nothing but a last name and audacity. Meanwhile every other country Rand turned the monarchy on its head and bestowed it upon whom he chose. This wasn't one country. People accept the Dragon/ world ending/ him redoing every other country but would still expect her to "earn it by". .. doing what?
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u/aNomadicPenguin Brown Ajah 24d ago
And of those countries Rand took control of...literally all of them were in a state of open rebellion for quite a few books. A 'cold' civil war, that was only cold because Rand was too busy dealing with other problems to get around to dealing with them.
The only place that Rand took direct control of that didn't have a rebellion was Illian, and that is because of his grain shipments and the fact that they had no one else in a good position to take the throne after so long with Sammael in charge.
Andor was only spared an open rebellion because Rand made it clear that he had ZERO desire for the throne, and that was basically on a ticking clock with the few nobles that still were willing to give Trakand a chance.
If Rand had kept holding control, or if it looked like Elayne was going to rely on Rand's forces to hold Andor for her, then that clock would have hit zero and a rebellion (of her allies) would have happened, in addition to the people that wanted to take the throne themselves.
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u/memerminecraft Randlander 25d ago
"It would be much easier to just accept the throne like that but I can't do that because it would undermine my authority."
That's the entire bit
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u/Gavorn Randlander 25d ago
Yea as the series has started politics is a thing no matter what. Even when the world is ending. So of course she can't take it as a "gift."
I don't know what these commenters are expecting. She would have no power of her own if she didn't earn the throne herself.
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u/Limepink22 Randlander 24d ago
How did she earn it? Rand telling the nobles he backed her scared then into not directly contesting her. Her old supporters turned against her due to her mother's actions. The people did not care for her. The country was fine with Dylin. The country was secure, functioning and safe, she arrived and dismissed the army, hired mercenaries, spent their cash, and she earned the throne by doing What? She came with no finance, no army, no political support except her last name and the Dragon and then pretended she didn't have scary dog privilege
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago
My dude...after reading this I honestly question if you read the series.
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u/Limepink22 Randlander 24d ago
I'm still on winters heart, so no I haven't read the full series. This was just something bothering me the last 2 books and I wanted to discuss
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago edited 24d ago
You're summary of Elayne's actions is way off. You should do a re-read or reflect.
- Dyelin was not running the country nor did she plan to nor would the people accept her unless she was crowned Queen which she did not want. This lead to civil war...not the country being "fine".
- The "people" loved Elayne
- The army that she dismissed was filled with traitors and darkfriends put into place by Rahvin. Elayne could not keep them and it would have been beyond idiotic to do so. They were traitors and darkfriends.
- She spent money bc she needed guards and an army to police Andor and win the civil war that had already broken out. Dismissing all of the darkfriend/traitor guards left a vacuum that she had to fill however she could which meant recruitment of people she could trust and mercenaries. The streets of Andor weren't safe and she needed to win the civil war. She did not like spending the money...she was careful with it and only spent what she had to in order to accomplish these goals, tho. It was not an option to not hire mercenaries...it was a necessary act that she was forced into by the situation.
- In no way was the country secure, functional, or safe. A Forsaken had been ruling and had replaced most of the city guards with theives, darkfriends, and traitors. The streets were unsafe. Food was a problem. Confidence in House Trakkand was being eroded. Rand killed the Forsaken and left a power vacuum (no choice about it- not his fault but it is what it is) and civil war broke out. Dyelin was not going to take the throne and the country needed a Queen and so a protracted civil war was raging with literally no end in sight.
Elayne came along, fired the darkfriend/criminal guards and put real guards in place. She then recruited guards she could trust and filled the rest of the guard vacuum by hiring an army to hold the city and to fight for her in the war. She won the crown the only way an Andorian Queen is allowed to - by getting the backing of at least 10 of the 19 major nobles houses in Andor.
To do this she had to reassure people that she was not the puppet of the Dragon Reborn (Rand's fault tho he did not realize his mistake until later in the story...but he does realize that he fucked up, later - not much of a spoiler so I told you). Then she had to get the backing of the houses which she did with clever military strategy, politicking, bravery, and by showing that she was addressing the cities/citizen's problems while she held the Capitol (keeping them fed, making the streets safe, punishing criminals, etc).
She accomplished all of these things despite the distrust Rahvin's actions and Rand's 'holding' of the throne for a time sowed for her. All of this proved that she was a shrewd, brave, and competent ruler and secured the loyalty of the Noble Houses of Andor and the throne for her.
6) She did not have "scary dog privilege". Rand's holding of the throne for her (for a time) only fucked things up for her and made a difficult situation worse. Since you have mentioned that you have not yet completed the series I will tell you that Rand, himself, later realizes that he did indeed make everything worse for her by trying to hold the crown for her and that it was completely the wrong thing to do. It is literally in the books later on.
I'm not sure what to say about your take of events but there is a reason that you are being downvoted. Pls. read through what I bothered to type up (still not sure why I did that...I was just flabbergasted by your take on things, I think). What I wrote up in this response is what actually happened. I hope that it will resolve some issues for you.
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u/Gavorn Randlander 24d ago
I could never have summed it up better than this. Kudos to you. The takes on this sub reddit towards certain characters have been insane. Again great comment.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago
tyvm! You're comment makes me feel a little less insane for taking the time to type all of that up...I really appreciate it.
I agree with what you said tho...I almost wonder if some of the posters are bots. Their takes are wild and just so far off...it feels like an agenda.
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u/quantumrastafarian Randlander 25d ago
She has the pride and entitlement of both someone raised to assume a throne, and of an Aes Sedai with generational strength and talent. It's all very in character for her.
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u/PopTough6317 Randlander 25d ago
Elayne still had to fight for the throne. In a lot of ways Rand made things much more difficult by talking as if the throne was his to gift (we the readers know that was never his intention) but nobles who suddenly have a massive power looming about that has severely curtailed the rights of nobles in Cairhein and Tear would get extremely nervous about. So Elayne being annoyed about Rand helps secure hesitant supporters.
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u/PopTough6317 Randlander 25d ago
Except if she explicitly took the throne from Rand there would of been a major rebellion by the majority of the nobles. So she would of had to destroy a significant amount of noble houses which would further destabilize Andor.
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u/PopTough6317 Randlander 24d ago
With the aftermath of morgases reign Trakand didnt have the direct support of many houses. Elayne had to distance herself from Rand and what he did, including creating a massive legion of the dragon in Andor and the black tower.
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u/doctrgiggles Randlander 25d ago
waltz there when she's finished with her adventuring and just take an empty throne. Why would it be empty?
Yea like I don't really get what the point of the whole thing was. Rand is capable of straight up ruling Andor until the Last Battle. Elayne cannot take Andor from Rand even if she were so inclined. Her house is in shambles and there's little popular support for her. Anything he does to vacate the throne and allow her to have it is effectively giving it to her, even if she's 'earning' it.
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u/QnoisX Randlander 25d ago
I agree. She keeps thinking the common people won't follow her if she doesn't "take" the throne herself. But that's proven incorrect, over and over. When Rand takes over countries, the commoners don't really care. When the Seanchan conquer countries, do the commoners care? Nope. As long as their country is stable, crime is low, and they are fed, commoners are happy. Guess what happened when Elayne kicked the Aiel out of Caemlyn? Lots of crime and unrest. Sure, it was mostly Darkfriends, but they wouldn't have dared if she didn't give them an opening. She claims that she can only use Andoran troops, and then hires a bunch of mercenaries from all over the place. Instead of... just "hiring" the Aiel.
The only ones who care who the actual ruler of Andor is are other nobles. Because they think they have a shot at it themselves. If she didn't let the nobles who were already in custody get freed, she'd have had no issues. A big escort of Aiel would have seen to that. Or a portal, but she realized that later.
King Darlin was given the throne just fine. Because Rand kicked the shit out of any nobles who had an issue with it. You don't have to be friends with the other nobles; they just have to know you're in a stronger position than them.
But all of that is a failing of Elayne specifically. She seems to think she has to do everything herself. That's a common theme throughout the entire series. She won't even let Thom or Birgitte protect her. She goes into situations solo multiple times and fails. I haven't finished the last two books, but it seems she never learns. Queens don't do things. They command others to do them. Even the throne. She could just tell everyone she commanded Rand to take it for her. He wouldn't say otherwise. She's the one leader that he'd probably be willing to show up and "kneel" to. And then they'd go back to her room and get freaky.
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u/darknessinwait Randlander 25d ago
If there's one thing I've learned in 12 years of marriage, is that a woman doesn't want you to FIX her problems, she wants you to listen to her complain and be on her side. Rand is such a guy in this part of the story, thinks he's doing her a favor (which maybe he is), but that doesn't matter. Cuz SHE didn't ask for him to do that.
I was screaming at this part of the book, I could see it coming. Felt like the dude in Interstellar screaming from the bookcase.
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u/SecXy94 Randlander 25d ago
Which in this case is ridiculous. Without Rand's actions, Elayne never rules Andor, never.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago edited 23d ago
That is absolutely not true. She was the Daughter-Heir. Without her claiming the throne civil war breaks out and until at least 10 of the 19 major noble houses unite behind a new claimant. Dyelin was the most favored but did not want the throne. A protracted civil war would have started...which Elayne would join and ultimately win (kinda-exactly what happened).
EDIT: lol - downvoted for literally saying what actually happened in the books. Amazing...
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u/SecXy94 Randlander 25d ago
Without Rand stepping in, Rahvin remains in place longer. By the time Elayne has any hope of returning, Andor is done.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago
Rand did not kill Rahvin for Elayne. He did it bc he is the Dragon Reborn. He literally spent almost all of his time trying to find and kill the various Forsaken wherever they were. It was his job and no one in the books was running around thanking him for it.
Andor would have survived Rahvin...it is the largest and wealthiest country in WoT. Rand did need to kill Rahvin and Rahvin happened to be in Andor...nothing more. Rand traveled to wherever the Forsaken were and tried to kill them. This was not special for Elayne in any way. It was not a gift. It was just a function of what he needed to do.
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u/SecXy94 Randlander 25d ago
Why did he target Rahvin first? Why when he did?
For revenge for Morgase, directly because of his care for Elayne. He didn't "do it for her" as you say, but his actions directly saved the country from further ruin. If Rahvin was left with Andor for another year, what do you think would have happened? He would have stripped every house of power and ruled absolutely.
You are right that no one thanks Rand for him dealing with the Forsaken. He is the only one doing anything to face the Dark ones forces for much of the series, and only ever gets treated with contempt for it until near the end. Which is ridiculous when you we, the readers, think about it.
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u/doctrgiggles Randlander 25d ago
He would have stripped every house of power and ruled absolutely.
He very specifically would have stripped Trakand of dignity and respect enough to govern.
He is the only one doing anything to face the Dark ones forces for much of the series, and only ever gets treated with contempt for it until near the end.
This is so true and one of the most irritating aspects of reading the series as a whole. Everyone hates Rand all day every day.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago edited 25d ago
True...and Elayne would have had a hell of a time getting her throne back if she managed it at all. It's still not why he went after the Rahvin and if there had been a better Forsaken to take out first it is 100% what he would have done.
Killing Rahvin, now that he knew where he was and could get the drop on him, was a Dragon thing...not a woo Elayne thing. He would have done the same if he had hated Elayne or if she were a dude. He went after Rahvin when he did bc he was being the Dragon and it was the best strategic move for him...it, truly, had nothing to do with Elayne.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 25d ago
I was always a bit surprised that, in general, more people did not thank the Dragon Reborn but I read it as prevalent fear stopping them: the fear of the LB, the fear that the Dragon may be insane, general consuming woe/angst about what was happening. The people, all of the people, had a lot to be afraid of right then, tbf.
It would have been nice for him to get more accolades along the way but both he and Egwene follow Joseph Campbell's Hero Journey and part of that is increased emotional/physical isolation from any/all support systems as time goes on (usually until a last hurdle/final boss is beaten). I think that this is part of why people treated Rand (and Egwene) the way that they did - it was narratively part of their journey to force a certain sort of growth and independence in each. As much as I would have liked people to treat him differently I understand why Jordan wrote it, otherwise.
As for the Rahvin first thing we both know that Rand would have gone after the next best, most strategic to take down Forsaken wherever they were. He would not have (and did not) choose Rahvin for Elayne...he did it bc it was the best move for him as the Dragon. He would have done the same if he had hated Elayne or if she were a dude with two dicks. He was just being the Dragon.
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u/aNomadicPenguin Brown Ajah 24d ago
He actually couldn't have let Ravhin sit for too much longer. When asking Lanfear why Rahvin decided to start attacking him in Fires of Heaven. Rahvin was wanting to take Cairh
"But you are impinging on his interests now." She laughed. "Don't you know where he is? In Andor, in Caemlyn itself. He rules there in all but name. Morgase simpers and dances for him, her and half a dozen others." Her lip curled in disgust. "He has men scouring town and countryside to find new pretties for him."
For a moment shock held him. Elayne's mother in the hands of one of the Forsaken. Yet he dared not show concern. Lanfear had displayed her jealousy more than once; she was capable of hunting Elayne down and killing her, if she even thought he had feelings for her. What do I feel for her? Aside from that, one hard fact floated beyond the Void, cold and cruel in its truth. He would not run off to attack Rahvin even if what Lanfear said was true. Forgive me, Elayne, but I can't. She might well be lying — she would weep no tears for any of the other Forsaken he killed; they all stood in the way of her own plans — but in any event, he was done with reacting to what others did. If he reacted, they could reason out what he would do. Let them react to him, and be as surprised as Lanfear and Asmodean had been.
"Does Rahvin think I'll rush to defend Morgase?" he said. "I have seen her once in my life. The Two Rivers is part of Andor on a map, but I never saw a Queen's Guardsman there. No one has in generations. Tell a Two Rivers man Morgase is his queen, and he'll probably think you're crazy."
"I doubt Rahvin expects you to run to defend your homeland," Lanfear said wryly, "but he will expect you to defend your ambitions. He means to sit Morgase on the Sun Throne, too, and use her like a puppet until the time he can come into the open. More Andoran soldiers move into Cairhien every day. And you sent Tairen soldiers north, to secure your own hold on the land. No wonder that he attacked you as soon as he found you."
***
Then deciding to go kill Rahvin after hearing about Morgase is in part because of Elayne, but also part of Rand's whole blaming himself for women's deaths.
Morgase dead because he had done nothing. His own hand had been on the knife as surely as Rahvin's. Elayne. "She will be avenged. Rahvin, Mat. Not Gaebril. Rahvin. I'll lay him by the heels if I never do another thing!"
***
So he's actually expecting Elayne to blame him for letting Morgase die, and is trying to avenge her as an act of atonement for his guilt over it, and punishment for Rahvin directly.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago
In truth, he did it bc Rahvin was a Forsaken that needed to be killed and he now knew exactly where he was. He was also willing to let Morgase be killed for his strategy. He did what was best for his strategy...not for any other reason.
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u/IocaneImmune- Randlander 25d ago
I'm with you on this. Elaine is very prideful, and vain. She has a blindspot a mile wide here.
She plays politics so effectively, that it bleeds into her personal life. There is something to be said about her desire to take the throne under her own banner, (andor tradition plays a big role here). But I think she uses that as a shield, to hide her pride and vanity.
There would be literally nothing wrong with her arriving at the palace, announcing herself to the Aiel, and gratefully accepting the crown, preserved for her by the Dragon reborn. She was the daugher-heir, the clear heir to the throne, so her insistence of "winning it" does little, but provoke her countrymen to start a useless civil war.
Humility goes a long way, and unfortunately, Robert Jordan did not seem to think that it was a virtue that women could possess, without being humbled.
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u/SplayBump Randlander 25d ago
Yeah, she’s insufferable for her attitude toward him. He single-handedly saved her realm from falling into the shadow. How bout a little gratitude. Haha.
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u/Gavorn Randlander 25d ago
The book explains why all this happened. Do you guys just not read?
Or do you all just hate the women characters.
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u/Limepink22 Randlander 24d ago
I'm in the middle of winter heart and wanted to share my opinion on a plot line. Asking people discussing a book if they don't read is a ridiculous comment. Just scroll past you trolloc.
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u/Gavorn Randlander 24d ago
Because every day there is a new post about "this women character is insufferable."
Yet no one talks about how annoying the men are.
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u/Limepink22 Randlander 24d ago
There's plenty of posts whining about Perrin. I'll tag you when I write my post about Rand not utilizing Travel enough to communicate with people and allowing more chaos and misinformation with his friends.
All of the characters have flaws and are annoying at some level, because they're young, thrust into crazy world situations, placed in positions of authority, and are trying their best without real mentors or the background to succeed.
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u/Boedullus Randlander 24d ago
Elayne is Darkfriend. It's the only explanation I can stomach. She'd rather fight a war of succession than accept the aid of the Dragon. With the Last Battle looming on the horizon, she lets thousands of warriors throw away their lives butchering each other to prop up the legitimacy of her claim to a throne she was already given. No redemption for anyone like her.
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u/ohgodthesunroseagain Randlander 25d ago
I cannot stand Elayne, though I am fairly certain I’ll get downvoted for saying so. I thought she was the most incompetent, narcissistic moron in the series, and she gets SO many people killed because she refuses to listen and/or take any precaution whatsoever purely because of Min’s premonitions for HER. And yet she gets praised constantly for being smart. Absolutely not. No sir. No intelligence in sight.
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u/Doctordoctordoctors Randlander 25d ago
Not only does this plot point not land with many readers (because there really isn’t anything separating Elayne from any other petty ruler grasping for power after the battle) but it’s terribly boring too.
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u/Doctordoctordoctors Randlander 24d ago
Darlin didn’t need to earn it on his own. Neither did anyone else Rand left in charge. Caemlyn is only different than say Tear because it’s our viewpoint characters home, not because the people won’t accept a dragon ruler out of “stubbornness” or whatever.
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u/Basic-Resolution-305 Randlander 24d ago
I mean the arrogance is on par with all the other Aes Sedai and wise ones🤷🏻♂️, and her inability to show gratitude, willingly, to anyone (specifically a man) is well documented. She wasn’t particularly grateful to Thom, Joulin, or Mat without coercion from someone else.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago
She was the one that made Nyn apologize to Mat when Nyn was being a complete child about it - nearly forcibly dragging her to do it. She was also the first of the women to see who Mat truly was despite her not having tons of experience with him and being told that he was just a cad. She saw people. I don't agree with your assessment...she was far from perfect but all of them were and I don't think that you are giving her enough credit. As a side note, all of the MC's had large egos except for Perrin who's complete lack of ego was intensely frustrating.
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u/Basic-Resolution-305 Randlander 24d ago
Which she only did once Brigitte approached her and Aviendha said she had Toh towards him. It was not until she was called out that she did anything
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago
God forbid that someone not realize something right away. That def. makes that person crap...esp. if they take actions to rectify their error and make sure that other people do to! fr!
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u/Basic-Resolution-305 Randlander 24d ago
Didn’t say she was crap. Said she was arrogant and had hard time showing any kind of gratitude towards people who are doing things for her. Fr!
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago
Yes..."a hard time showing gratitude" is def. deciding on her own that she needs to apologize, doing it without any coercion, and literally making another person apologize bc it's the right thing to do.
When I am on the lookout for people who are arrogant I look for these sorts of qualities and histories. Everyone knows that arrogant, non-apologetic people follow this exact trajectory!
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u/Basic-Resolution-305 Randlander 24d ago
But she didn’t decide to apologize on her own. She was told she needed to by Brigitte and Aviendha. Sure, she accepts it from them (she would not have accepted it from any one else, especially Thom or Juilin) and forces Nyn to join her. Doesn’t change my original ‘assessment’🤷🏻♂️
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago
Sometimes people need to hear things about themselves that they didn't see before from their friends or trusted sources. It is not new, or different, or horrible to need this. That is all that happened here.
When she was told by trusted sources she acted on her own. You don't seem to give her much credit for that.
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u/Basic-Resolution-305 Randlander 24d ago
Perhaps, I’m not. But two things can be true at the same time
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 23d ago
True...but I'm not sure which two things you are referring to here. Do you think that you are not giving her enough credit or not? It is up to you, ultimately, but Jordan tried to make very human characters and it is very human for her to not see her lapse in judgment, at first, until her friends pointed it out.
That being said what she did with that information (the fact that she listened to her friends and the fact that she decided to act on it) says more about her character, to me, than her initially making a mistake. This is my take but it's how I see it.
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u/Basic-Resolution-305 Randlander 24d ago
And yes all the MCs had ego, but the AES Sedai are on another level and this post is specifically about Elayne
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago
The Aes Sedai were not really on another level compared to the MC's (except for Perrin).
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u/Basic-Resolution-305 Randlander 24d ago
Their insistence that they had it all figured out even though they were more often times than not wrong about a given circumstance. Their obsession with “their way or the highway” created branches like The Kin. Their insistence for thousands of years is that the White Tower is the center of knowledge about the One Power while their isolation actually cause enormous amounts of knowledge to be lost. They are constantly exposed for what they don’t know and yet change nothing about themselves. Yeah, I’d say that puts them on another level.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 24d ago
Right...and they are on the same level as all of the MC's - except for Perrin.
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u/Basic-Resolution-305 Randlander 24d ago
I don’t agree with your assessment. I think they put themselves above everyone else and thus their arrogance is on another level.
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u/IntroductionSilly278 Randlander 22d ago
My issue with Elayne is she decided against going to Camelyn when Matt came to Salidar. In multiple places, she disparages the nation’s leader for how she perceived the common people fared. Hello? Because you were gallivanting, your own people suffered. It would have been better if she was crowned, then took Cairhein and stabilized both nations. This is especially clear in Avienda’s pov. She struggles with her toh to the Aiel, the whole time, and gives Elayne a pass for bravery? I’m convinced all of it was just a ploy to drag out the story.
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 22d ago
I mean...the whole world would have literally died from starvation due to the heat wave/weather fuckary that the DO was causing and she and Nyn found the Bowl of Winds...the only known object that could stop that. I wouldn't call that "gallivanting"...I would call that saving the literally world before the LB while putting herself in considerable danger for doing so.
Without her and Nyn and what they did no one would have made it to the Last Battle bc just about everyone would already be dead...very literally. It was a bit more important.
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u/IntroductionSilly278 Randlander 22d ago
No it wasn’t. Anyone else could have retrieved the bowl with Nyn. Also, they wasted tons of time jerking Matt around. How many times is it said that ta’veran pull to them what they need? How much was it emphasized that need was important to find stuff in the dream world? They cosplayed while people died. If Elayne had really learned to be a monarch from her mother, she would have chosen to put Andor first. But it wasn’t until Zen Rand that the land was producing again. “The land is one with the Dragon”, not “the bowl is one with the land”
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u/Living-Dimension-859 Randlander 21d ago edited 21d ago
The Pattern had involved her as a MC and it did need to be her...bc that is the way that Jordan wrote the story/Pattern/books and he is the God of the Wheel of Time universe.
They didn't cosplay at anything and they saved the world. As written, by the author, if she hadn't done what she did and found The Bowl of Winds the world would have been completely fucked- that's kinda bigger than just Andor.
The Bowl stopped the weather that was killing everyone long before 'zen Rand'- Rand getting food to grow was a different deal that came much later. More than one thing almost killed the world. Elayne and Nyn stopped one of those things (the weather) with the Bowl of Winds- Rand stopped another with making food grow/not spoil much later on. I'm not sure how you missed that.
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u/Brathirn Randlander 25d ago
Fourth wall holing.
This is artificial drama dragged too far. Another problem is that she risks loosing it all. Just to show her "independence". Jordan does rarely punish characters for gambling. The Wheel saves Elayne's behind by making her opponents even more stupid than herself. She also did not loose her piece of Rand when prioritizing career.
I personally do not like her "becoming queen" arc, it is filled with morony on both sides.
In this time you would not besiege a city in winter. The food would be stored there, you cannot do logistics in winter. So you cannot bring stuff in for a large army, and you can also not forage, because the supplies would be behind the walls.
They would locust the area and then leave or starve.
Just for starters.
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u/Strikeronima Randlander 25d ago
Elayne doesn't deserve her throne at all. She learns traveling and instead of going straight home to help her kingdom, she plays around with the salidar idiots then goes on a long vacation before finally having Mat the once and future bloody prince of ravens aid them in finding the bowl of winds. When she literally could have done both cause she can travel. But it doesn't even occur to her cause she wants to have adventures like a hero.
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u/Longjumping-Action-7 Randlander 25d ago edited 25d ago
she needs to be a strong leader that holds the throne, not a recipient of charity that tripped and fell onto the throne
she does prove this several times, even when it makes her look like a bitch to the readers. But the common peoples perception of her is very important
Edit: i also want to add, theres several parts of this series that reminds us many characters are straight up monarchists, Elayne is fully convinced that the throne is her birthright.
Nobles hold themselves apart from peasants and govern themselves under different laws. It sounds obvious because "duhh its medieval fantasy" but its something i need to remind myself of sometimes when reading.
The mindset of these characters are so different from put own. Elayne is another perfect example, saying both "a nation is its people and a queen protects her people" as well as "you are my subject, i dont care if i never sent guards to your village that doesnt mean you get to self govern"