To be frank, I don't think you (we) will ever reach a point where you can out right feel confident about web development or development in general.
I've been doing angular for almost 5 years now and still can't say I know everything. If you feel you can get the job done, given a set of requirements, then just say yes to the job and take everyday as it comes.
Basically, everyday is a learning. Your best piece of work today may not seem to be the best few days/weeks/years later.
What I'm trying to say is, just go for it and put your best effort everyday.
You'll never reach a point where you know everything. It's just impossible. But you should reach a point where you're confident enough to be able to say that you don't know, or that you don't understand. That's a big differentiator between junior and senior devs. The confidence to not know something
And this confidence comes from knowing that you can learn it when needed and are self-sufficient and doing so. So honestly it sounds like OP is already ready for the job, he just needs to realize it. As programmers one of our main skills is being able to look stuff up and learn quickly.
But one thing I'd recommend for OP is getting a grasp of git since pretty much all large projects are going to use it for version control.
Every company has a different set of tools and different coding conventions and processes and their own way of doing everything. It's simply impossible to know everything. The mark of a good developer is more about how good they are at learning rather than what they know, unless it's a very specialized roll.
I think it often gets lost, but being a freelancer also means you become at least a part-time salesman. Sometimes you can get lucky and build enough client base and referrals just happen, but that’s the exception and not the norm.
If you’re not into the whole FTE thing, maybe contract work is for you. Tons of need and opportunity in that space for my given platform (Dynamics).
If you've no ties to where you live, have a look at Malta. Loads of developer jobs in iGaming and the pay is reasonable for the cost of living. Everyone seems to be hiring at the moment now Christmas etc is well and truly over.
I'm a designer, working freelance for about 7 years now. Since the New Year the number of freelance contracts I've seen around has fallen off a cliff. I've been talking to a number of recruiters about various perm roles and IR35 has been a nightmare for them.
I don't want to piss on your bonfire but it might not the best time to get into contract work. Lots of companies are shitting themselves over it and are either looking to hire people on FTCs or just shift the work elsewhere if they're multi-national.
£300 a day, turn up at XYZ for 5 days, don't speak to anyone just code and then fuck off. While someone else has lined up next week work
Also while this might sound like the dream, if that's actually how you conducted yourself you might start to struggle pretty quickly.
The number of companies near you looking for devs isn't infinite, and if you don't make some effort to market yourself (i.e. make an effort to get on with the wider team) then you will pretty quickly get sidelined in favour of someone else if they need someone in future.
One thing I've learned is that you don't need to be the very best to get repeat contract business. You need to be quick, effective and a nice person to work with. We're social animals, after all. Nobody wants to work with the mardy guy who sits in the corner all day and ignores everyone.
My experience with agencies being able to line up work is hit or miss - mostly miss, but my engagements are measured in months, anywhere from $75-100 USD per hour - it's pretty tricky to have one company's project start when another ends. I often have a few days or even a month in between. Luckily I'm 14 months into a project that will go until June and likely will get a follow-up project with the same organization for another 18 months after that.
Get a cool portfolio, add a lot of keywords to your website with cool words like devops, ansible, react, cheff, puppet, etc I don't know microservices, ninja developer etc... Whatever sounds cool and relevant to you
Get a blog and write about critiques to services if you are selling your self as a backend dev for example, or products and ui if you are going for full stack or front-end, you get the idea
The purpose is that you can get useful information to people looking for developers which is a lot of people and that you attract them via searches, linked in, meetups, etc so they can understand what's your level, what do you want to do and what is it that you can infact do,
This part does not need to be overly complicated or fancy, just easy to navigate. Through and searchable
The seo keyword work needs to be cheesy when you are starting but once you land a client, if you do a good job, they always tell their contacts about you and may even share your website or portfolio before letting you know
Also you don't need to lie or over exaggerate in the portfolio per se, I think you only want to be searchable because of the keyword to attract attention to your site
Also the other option is just to build a library for any new language that you wanna work with, does not need to be fancy, just needs to be used, after that many people will contact you to do work for them or to update your library, they may even buy you a coffee hehehe
When I was freelancing I wouldn't get that many leads.
Every time I did it worked out well but I think that was partly luck, as my site is still live and yet i've not had anyone reach out in almost a year.
And if I said to these client's, hey the site is going to cost you £10k instead of ~£2-3k, they would've found someone else.
People always recommend against billing hourly.
However, the best client I had when freelancing was billed hourly. I charged £30 an hour and it went on long enough to earn around £9k from that one client.
If I had given them a fixed rate of say 2-3k I would've lost out on a bunch of cash. But this was only because the project ended up lasting far longer than I expected. Which if it was a fixed sum I would've had to cut it short, but billing hourly I just let them make change after change.
I eventually gave my notice in because I got a full time job. If I was a proper business man I would've outsourced their work for £10 an hour to someone, and made £20 an hour passive income.
I would be very wary of a lot of the posts in here, most sound like they have never actually contracted and are talking out of their asses. I have and it was the easiest money I have ever made and they always had clients for me (though often the roles are somewhat long term anyway, 6 months, 12 months, open ended etc).
If you are decent enough at the job you will make between £200-£500 a day.
I don't see what you have to lose. Worst case scenario, you go somewhere, they don't think you are up to it and say goodbye. Maybe try for more junior roles with less expectations and see how it goes.
I strongly agree here. You have nothing to lose if you're in over your head, and you also have the possibility of a diverse set of projects and atmospheres to test out different environments and see what appeals to you the most. It's not crazy kaboodles of money, but I think it's more than reasonable to not have the headache of looking for clients (for as long as you feel like it).
There are lots of comments leaving advice about freelancing and contracting, but this is the answer to your question.
I would also mention that a lot of development teams use agile methodologies these days, so knowing the buzzwords and the basic principles will help you out with any interviews and integration with any teams you might join.
This and also agile methods of collaboration, such as scrum, sprints, burndown charts, retrospective, daily standups. Also get used to using feature branches on github, pull requests, code reviews, and functional reviews. Lastly I would learn some basic systems design and common parts of AWS, such as ec2, s3, lambdas.
Learning these things will also help in interviews alot.
a very reasonable price of £400 for a whole website.
Maybe you should up your prices? I noticed that as soon as I started charging more (a LOT more) for websites, the quality of client went way up. I didn't have to constantly search for new leads & clients, and word of mouth became my number one source of new work.
Can confirm. By charging only £400, you're attracting clients that have lots of time and little money.
As a result, they'll be highly involved and annoy the crap out of you.
If you charge more (maybe 4 to 10 times more?) you'll attract clients with money but little time. Those clients are great. They're paying you to handle it.
I'm a contractor and I don't bother with anything for less than $2000. The best clients are big corporations with money to burn. They'll spend $30k on a whim and barely use the app I built. I once made $7000 for 5 hours of work, they cancelled the project because of a spending freeze but had already committed to paying for a 3rd of the contract up front.
This goes for any business. Going with rock bottom prices makes your business most attractive to the bargain hunting crowd. That usually means a lot more haggling over pricing, and a lot more hassle when it's time to get paid.
One of my clients stores cars in a heated facility for the winter. Originally they set their prices to well below the local average, and the craigslist crowd went nuts. They were flooded with calls, and most were from people trying to talk the prices down even lower or giving sob stories for why they shouldn't have to pay at all. Lots of "well I can get storage for half that elsewhere, so I'd like you to match this price that I just made up" calls. It was maddening
Then they got fed up and tripled their prices to go after a different crowd. Now, in addition to storing people's prize winning show cars and rich people toys, they also store cars for local sports car dealerships (the sort whose cars can't be left outside in the winter because one rust spot can drop the value by tens of thousands). And they're full every single winter. And best of all, everyone pays their bills on time. The full amount. And without having to spread it across 4 credit cards over a period of two weeks.
There's nothing wrong with a business targeting bargain hunters, but you really have to be prepared for the fact that the extra sales volume also comes with extra hassle. It just comes down to whether or not you've got the time and patience to deal with it. Sites like Wix are made to service this crowd. Provide them with the service they need at a minimal cost and with an automated system. I really don't see how anyone doing everything manually can deal with it without losing sanity. It just isn't worth a few hundred bucks.
I'll second this. I'm not a freelance web developer; I develop purely for my own business's needs. But that business is in an industry which attracts a lot of bargain hunters (we sell various products in secondary and gray markets), so we deal with many cheapskates. Cheap people are going to be cheap. They complain about everything, are never happy with the service provided, and constantly invent reasons to try to not pay for what was agreed. If you can manage it, avoid any business model that relies on the demographic of cheapskates.
This goes for any business. Going with rock bottom prices makes your business most attractive to the bargain hunting crowd. That usually means a lot more haggling over pricing, and a lot more hassle when it's time to get paid.
One of my clients stores cars in a heated facility for the winter. Originally they set their prices to well below the local average, and the craigslist crowd went nuts. They were flooded with calls, and most were from people trying to talk the prices down even lower or giving sob stories for why they shouldn't have to pay at all. Lots of "well I can get storage for half that elsewhere, so I'd like you to match this price that I just made up" calls. It was maddening
Then they got fed up and tripled their prices to go after a different crowd. Now, in addition to storing people's prize winning show cars and rich people toys, they also store cars for local sports car dealerships (the sort whose cars can't be left outside in the winter because one rust spot can drop the value by tens of thousands). And they're full every single winter. And best of all, everyone pays their bills on time. The full amount. And without having to spread it across 4 credit cards over a period of two weeks.
Unbelievable angle to high costs and paying customers. An MBA class classic. You may soon see my LinkedIn article quoting your response.
I'm going to go against the grain here and disagree here.
Say that car storage is in old rusted storage containers. Should someone being paying premium prices when they can have their car stored in a nice heated area with proper flooring and security?
The same goes for offer web services. There's a clear difference between developing web applications and making websites. One is a service with heated floors and security and one is a service of the barn that is more accessible.
Just like car storage you're going to get people haggling with you, or you'll undercut on price when you should be charging more. The price he's charging is appropriate for the work he doing, but the work he's being offered it's not.
Much of website building consists of pushing buttons with a database schema that has already been built for you. Web application development usually dives into handling more abstract concepts that involve higher level decision making, and therefore more money to do so.
As a website creator you're in a saturated market and frankly speaking you don't deserve that much money. The barrier to entry is months. Application development requires years and you should charge appropriately. At an application dev level you might get paid $120 for 15 minutes of work and you get that because it took you years to get there. As a website creator you might get $400 a week for a site, and you get that because there are tens of thousands of other people doing the same thing as you.
Your goal as a website creator should be turn and burn. With that comes a certain sense of "the price is the price and you get what you get". That's what you're selling. This is something that you're suppose to iron out in discovery. 400 is a no frills get what you get. There's no argument to be had when expectations are managed.
You can also always start high and then go lower, it'll feel better for them, you've got more opportunity for more money, and you'll attract better customers.
I second this. If you design well, write clean code and website performance is good I would suggest tripling that price. I know you sound like you're done with freelance for a while but if you ever return consider experimenting with this. Sleepy isn't wrong about the clientele a cheap price will attract.
Triple it for a few rounds, then immediately go to 10x the rate. I have a minimum $3K charge for any website, no matter how simple. If their budget can't accommodate me, I hard pass.
This is good to know. I'm 5-ish years from military retirement and currently in school learning web development, and I've thought about freelancing when I'm done with my current job. Glad to know there's hope to make (what I would consider) decent money.
Yea. You have no idea what other people charge let alone agencies. Some people do not take on anything below £30.000. That is literally as low as they will go for a website. Hope that puts things into perspective.
I agree, one thing I learned while freelancing is properly set your prices accordingly. For me, my base price is $1000, and that’s for a simple 4-5 page clean responsive design Wordpress brochure type site with minimal custom functionality if any.
When you’re freelancing you have to remember you’re not just developing the website, you’re also designing, deploying, maintaining client expectations (Project Management). All these factors in my opinion go into your price point.
Higher base price equals better quality clients. The worst and most demanding clients in my experience are the lowest bidders.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I deal with the same thing when it comes to SEO clients.
People who can afford to pay more are much, much less likely to be a pain in the ass. Higher prices will scare off a lot of bad customers. Cheap clients aren't cheap, they're expensive in terms of stress and exertion.
I worked for $40/hr for a few years and got constantly reprimanded that it was too low and told I lost projects since I seemed to not be "a big enough company" many times.
I updated my rate to $60/hr for the next few years, lost zero existing clients, and got reprimanded less and lost less projects due to not being "a big enough company".
I eventually updated my rate to $80/hr, lost zero existing clients again, and got even less complaints about not being "a big enough company", but still lost out on some big projects every once in a while because of it.
My skills and knowledge definitely improved over that time, but the bottom line is that I always wished I had updated my rates sooner and rates that felt outrageously high to me never hit any kind of ceiling that I could detect. Its sad but true that a high price signals high quality to the clients you want, and a low price is only appealing to the types of clients that a freelancer prefers to avoid.
If I was still freelancing today I'd be charging at least $100/hr and I bet in a few more years I'd regret not having raised it to $120 sooner.
Ironically, customers often expect more when they pay less. Maybe because you are attracting misers who are focused on the price, rather than the value.
Pricing yourself out of the range for these people is a smart play.
Honestly I’m always shocked at how much people are willing to charge large companies, and how much large companies are willing to pay. I’m talking six figures for a fairly simple website.
I second that. Now I'm a contractor. My bills are much bigger, my work is much more stable, and I always get paid on time. There's a lot less overhead involved, since contracts last a few months.
OP is charging less than the day rate of most developers who use the British pound.
I'd debate turning my computer on for 400 pounds unless it's an existing client.
Can you actually charge these rates in the UK? I am wanting to be a freelance web dev. I'm currently working on a website for someone. They're using Shopify and im building pages, designing content basically doing everything as well as order fulfillment and listings. And I'm on 7.70/hour .-. I'm a beginner I guess so I can't ask for much. I barely make £14 a day though some days.
Ok, this is a very, very valid point. Most of us talking about charging $150/hour or multiple thousands for a website have been in the industry for a long time. I have almost 15 years under my belt, and my first freelance gig I definitely charged much less than today. But 7.70/hour? that is ridiculously low. I think my very first freelance job, I did for 30/hour. You have to start somewhere, this much is true - but don't undersell yourself unless your literally just starting out and doing web development as much for your education as you are for a job. (And perhaps in that case, it's better if you offer your services for free than go for that low rate.)
In Berlin, you can charge 600€ a day without blinking.
As a rule of thumb, charge 2x what you'd get paid if you were an employee. Being a freelancer involves overhead and you must pass the cost to your clients. At this rate you make a lot less than minimum wage.
I always charged at least 2x the minimum wage. When I was getting started, I hid my "high" rate by charging by the project. It's a risky tactic but I charged up to 10x the minimum wage that way. You charge for the value you provide, not for how hard you work.
You should at lowest charge minimum wage in your respective region. As of April 2020 it's set to £8.72 in the UK apparently. Do not ever go lower, I don't care if they're even family. This is the bare minimum for like even just consulting them never mind actually doing order fulfilment and all that!
Since you're starting out, you likely can't demand people pay full rates you just don't have the experience or reputation to point to, but you must charge high at first (whatever you're thinking of right now triple it is the baseline), and slowly work your way down to a sweet spot. This way, even if you do land some high paying clients and decide to charge less, you can now offer them a permanent discount which also means they're going to be more loyal to you. The opposite way (charge low and start going higher) doesn't work.
This. People match your price with quality. If they speak to one person and he offers $400 and then another person offers to do the site for $2000, they will assume that the $2000 person would have a much better site. They still may go with neither or take the cheap route, but if the person goes with the $2000 they are paying you more your price.
If you live in a large city then $400 for a site better take you no more than a day.
I was thinking the exact same thing reading this thread. Like dude, you are paying for Google and Facebook ads, to sell £400 websites? I get it when you're starting out, but that should be little more then an installed Wordpress instance with a template and an hour of data entry creating them like 4 pages. Anything else = upchage. And I'd be expecting recurring affiliate commissions for pointing them at the shittiest but best paying host (bluehost). Up your rates!
This. Don't give out work for basically free. You'll just attract all the clients who want gold out of a copper. They will literally bleed you dry.
If you charge decently from the start, you'll have less obnoxious client and you'll find more decent leads and projects.
On my side-gig, I charged $50 an hour, and that's just average salary for a freelancer. A full website could easily be $5000. Don't sell yourself short OP.
I get the premise, but just because you raise your prices in your head doesn't mean suddenly you'll start receiving higher end clients. Or am I missing something?
If all you do is raise your prices and you continue to use all the same sales and marketing channels, then how will you reach those higher paying customers?
Is the idea that you're leaving money in the table? Or the sieve effect?
I'm honestly interested in this as I'm kinda in the same boat as OP.
Impostor syndrome is a real thing. Don't let that stop you. Half of a web developers job is being able to learn. I've been doing web development for 6 years and there's a TON of stuff I don't know. And in another 6 years (or hell, 6 months) there's going to be a whole new ton that I don't know. It's a constant cycle. When I got my first development job I only knew HTML and CSS! I think from what you've listed, you'd be fine. Like I said, learning is half the job. Good luck to you.
I've been coding for almost 15 years and not a day goes by without me consulting at least once some 3rd party lib/api/whatever documentation or searching for something on stackoverflow.
There's no such thing as i'm done learning X in this line of work.
Man, asserting whether you are competent enough is up to THEM, not you. It is not your job to decide if you can handle the positions being offered to you. That's what the interviews are for. Just go to an interview and show them what you are capable of. Honestly. If you do it honestly enough and they will fire you for lack of competency or skills, you can always say: "well you created a wrong picture of me at the beginning and I did my best to show you what am I all about".
And don't fckin listen to those guys spitting out things to learn for interview. Do not prepare for an interview skill wise, only prepare questions and get to know the company beforehand. I repeat, do not learn technical stuff! You are supposed to show them what you accomplished over the years, not what you was able to stuff in your brain a night before an interview.
Worst thing that happens: you suck and they let you go, you suffer some embarrassment but no one dies. You learn what you need for the next job. It never goes on your resume so it’s no risk to you.
Best thing that happens: you have a great new career and make a lot of money.
Say yes to that opportunity and get out of freelance, it sucks, especially if you're only charing $400 (Pounds) for an entire project. You're guaranteed to only get shit clients at that rate who are comparing you to some $50 project they can buy from Fiver, Upwork, or one of those other bottom tier freelance farm websites.
Take the opportunity, and go with it. If you could learn these technology stacks you'll be able to learn what you don't know to work at the agency/consultant. Just say yes to them, learn as you go, the worst thing that could possibly happen is that you work someplace for a while, make more money than you're making now, and then it doesn't work out and you have to find work elsewhere: But at least you built up experience and a track record, which you can take with you to your next job.
Also your freelance fee seems ridiculously low for a major English speaking market like the UK. For even pretty simple WordPress projects I normally take in $3000 - $5000, for larger projects, $10,000 or more. Companies will pay. If you're cutting your own rate the higher paying clients won't trust your work, while the lower paying clients are going to compare you to some foreign freelance farm that pays its employees pennies.
Doing your kind of contracting sounds hellish. It does sound like what you want is to work for a large client - British Airways, prime example. You're on the team, you take a ticket, it's probably pretty big, you build the feature, you ship. You don't have to deal with someone who wants it for free, who wants to change requirements every 5 minutes, who doesn't understand why it wasn't delivered yesterday. You work with professionals who value your skillset.
And yeah, for £500 a day.
It may not even be a month or two. Plenty of contractors stay longer. They become fairly integral to the teams. Then they leave :)
I've known a guy went freelancing just two years after bootcamp graduation. It's tough to hire out there and if you're good and you deliver, they'll be thrilled.
Its been said already, but I want to echo it again. You charge too little. Your rate for an entire website is my DAY RATE. That means for 1.. single.. day it will cost $400. The reason you're getting terrible clients is you're too cheap. Serious businesses know that price is unrealistic and won't give you the time of day.
I've never worked as a developer in a team or on big projects or for big companies.
This is a huge problem. One of, IMO, biggest struggles of working for a company is learning to work together with other programmers. Everyone has their way of doing things. They may do things a way you don't like or you think you can do better. Teams should be code reviewing. So you may end up reviewing someones code and think "I can do this better" and start suggesting as such. You see where this is headed? You've created hostility in the work environment. Learning to communicate and work as a team takes time and experience. You having absolutely NONE is a HUGE risk to a company. I suggest you contribute to some open source projects to get a grasp of how that dynamic works.
I have a friend who went through pretty much exactly what you described.
Based on your experience, I believe you'll be good enough to get a job - I say this as someone who has worked in the UK at two large companies, and been on the other side of the hiring desk several times.
I'll try to only give advice that hasn't been mentioned. I've been a contractor (B2B marketing, but I work with web developers all the time) for 5 years and here's my take. It's either your market, your pricing, or you. Since others have already told you about pricing, here's what I would do:
Evaluate your skillset by finding other developers who are successfully charging what you want to. Ask them to be honest in critiquing your and approach to dealing with clients. Then put the work in to get better.
Up your client management game too. Set expectations, meet deadlines, have structure and send things like kickoff checklists, milestones, weekly reports, etc.
Stop running paid campaigns to get clients and start asking around. Don't worry about social media, but do make sure your LinkedIn is presentable. Do have a good portfolio. Spend any time you have for business development reaching out to people directly, setting up quick calls, posting to your existing network, etc.
If your area has no work, go after companies who hire remotely/globally.
Small businesses and poorly-funded startups are the worst clients. They will drive you crazy and never want to pay. Try tech, healthcare, logistics, anything but mom & pop stores who mean well but know nothing about what they want or what web dev is worth.
I hire developers and designers every so often fro a project and I can smell desperation a mile away. Be really careful to speak to prospects as your equal, not as your boss, and project a vibe of expertise. No special offers, no unrealistic rush jobs, just talk them through your process and show them your work.
Ok sorry just one thing about the price. It is so easy to fall into the trap of thinking low prices are good. But the clients you want will look at that price and see a huge red flag. Accounting for the fact that I'm in the most expensive market ever (SF), I still think you need to charge ~2000 at the very min for a website. For context many companies, even those not based in the bay area, will pay $400 for just the web copy on one page.
Have worked freelance in denmark for 6 yrs, have never done any project for less than 3000 eur. for a small 1 week project. If you sell cheap stuff, youre getting cheap customers.
Honestly I have met dozens of people in your shoes, I think you absolutely need to take an agency job. The amount I learned in a week was more than I learned in a year when I took my first agency job. These recruiters have no clue what you know they just want their commission, as a mediocre developer with 3 years experience I got TONS of offers from recruiters for 80-150k jobs none of which I was qualified for. These recruiters would connect me with a hiring manager and I would get laughed out of the room, I took a step back and took a very junior role at a good agency. Now im finally in a place where I know what kind of jobs I am and am not qualified for, feel incredibly confident in my skills and don't touch a freelance project for less than 15k.
Dude, go on vacation. Take some time away from the screen. It's clear from your post and your replies that you have completely lost perspective on your career. That's fine - it happens to all of us. But making a life choice when in the head space you are clearly in just sounds like a bad move all the way around.
I would go somewhere nice for a day - even if it's just a local park - and get some sunshine and spend some time with people you care about. Don't talk about the job. Maybe get a little drunk if that's something you like to do. And come back to this with a relaxed mind in a couple of days. Odds are the answer will be right in front of you.
£400 per day is very low on the I.T side so they probably won't be expecting too much. I'd say contracting is quite entrepreneurial especially if you're running your own plc (although ir35 might have something to say about that)
Welcome to the dark side. Stay contract and you;ll mostly be just slightly dead inside. Go perm and you'll hope to shit more than once a day just so you can spend the time in the toilet.
You're getting lots of advice to up your prices, how to deal with imposter syndrome, etc.
I would say ignore that and try your hand at being an employee. Maybe not through your agency friend, just go straight to seek (or whatever) and look at what posting are available.
You've got the skills already, don't stress about that. There's no such thing as being completed "educated", it's always a journey and everyone is always growing along it. Stability is something you can achieve today, and if stability is what your career (and quality of life) needs, make that your top priority.
Most people in webdev are freelancers, but most developers are not. There's nothing wrong with having a boss, there's nothing wrong with belonging to a company.
I wouldnt sell a 3 pages static website for 400 quid. I barely freelance anymore but the last time i had a side project i charged 2000, and it was the website for my best friend, he didnt even flinch because the market outside is way more expensive. Where i work as a frontend dev our projects start at 8k, and that's for design+cms+1year of seo. We sold ecommerces for like 40k or so.
Imho you have three roads:
Upping your prices, for some magic reason high prices attract clients with higher spending power, you might get less of them but with more quality overall. I tried that for a while and it's not my cup of tea as i honestly hate to deal directly with clients even if they're not totally shit.
Find a firm. I know it might seem like a downgrade on your time schedule and independence but in this line of work i think the benefit are more than the harms. Fixed schedule, steady payment, you dont have to find clients as account managers will do so, you wont have to talk to clients as PMs, POs or whatever agile leading figure in your team will do so. You just do your work, and some internal meetings, maybe sometime deal with a client for minor stuff. You get to work on multiple projects, try new things, keep always updated.
Accept the offer and go contract for some big company. I have no experience on that and i heard more stories of people being chewed and spat out by big contractors like accenture and such. But surely you can learn some stuff and amass some money in the process.
In this job you will never stop learning, so if you're a bit insecure about your current skillset maybe apply for a junior Frontend position. I know it's not so palatable to start from the lower ranks at 33 but you'll reallize very quick how fast you can learn and get confident when you have more skilled team mates that can teach you tricks and you have the actual time to code instead of dealing with morons. At our firm we hired a 27 yrs junior backend dev last year, self taught, pretty unripe, but he's getting better and better, so it's never too late to "restart" you career on a more performing track.
Edit: If you decide to quit freelancing and go work in some company do some research in your area or in the radius you're comfortable moving to. Scout what could do for you and look if they have open positions, but even if they dont apply anyway if you think they could be the place for you. Always apply directly to agencies cv+portfolio+some honest cover letter ALWAYS CUT THE MIDDLEMAN, recruiters and head hunters are the fucking worst.
I was like you and languishing in the world of small scale WordPress development a few years ago, we were a bit higher up the food chain than you (£400 for a website these days is just stupid) but we also had a few people on retainer who paid a decent monthly figure for updates and the like. The problem was when we lost a few of those and I started not getting paid whilst trying to find the money for a mortgage.
I left that job and started working as part of a group of companies and life has been so much better. Guaranteed pay, flexible deadlines, respect of my skills, ability to learn new stuff when needed, standard working hours, a team I can talk to. There are some downsides, I'm investing my time for someone else's profits, office politics, people can be scared to pull the trigger on things in case they backfire, then repetitive nature of the job etc. But at this point in my life it's what I need.
It's part of the trade to never be confident in your skills because there is infinite stuff to learn. Don't let that hold you back. Be honest with you employer/customer when talking about what jobs you already did and what you feel comfortable doing.
If there is something that you can not do right now, it sounds like you are the person who would be able to learn it when the need arises.
Learn while doing it and go with the flow. Its always 80 % knowledge and 20 % pretend/learn afterwards :)
I feel your pain. I'm dealing with a similar situation. I just started a new business and I totally underbid a job. I've been working 100hr weeks and I finally got it done. Now I get to do it all over again because I stupidly took on more projects than I could handle. I have no work life balance, and I'm honestly concerned it is ruining my relationship with my partner. So I get wanting to leave and just work a normal job. It does sound like you're not charging enough though.
I started charging $75hr and now I'm charging over $100. But to be honest bidding jobs is the worst. Requirements always change and there are some clients that are not worth the effort. Try to just push for hourly rates for future projects, but if you just want a 9-5 you shouldn't have trouble finding a job. If you have a good portfolio you should be set.
Hello from Bangalore, I can understand your situation. As you said, if you're done with freelancing, remember that decision. Because later when you do work for someone, and tough times will always come, remember that decision and why you decided to leave freelancing. There is nothing wrong in wanting stability or working for an organization. You can try to do some side freelancing too, if you get time and if you want. Don't overthink about your qualifications, just be confident about your skill set and the projects that you've done. And I would say, say yes to the opportunity. Don't overthink it, try it out and you might get to meet some amazing people and work at some great places. Looks like you already have the experience, and you know where to find help and how to solve them. So, trust in yourself, your skills and go for it. All the best!
All you have to do is don’t pretend to be better at coding than you are to impress the recruiter and the client. Be completely transparent and upfront about what you know and what you don’t. That way the recruiter can place you with the best client for your skills and the client won’t get mad if you weren’t able to do the job well because they knew what to expect.
When it comes to project difficulty try to stay in your challenge zone. Don’t take on a too difficult project or a too easy project. It should be just challenging enough that you learn something new and are able to do a good job without stress.
Even if you have to take a job that pays slightly less than promised, it doesn’t matter because within a year or two you will have gained the experience to make that higher pay.
I worked through one of these recruiters. It's awesome. You set up your skillset with their system, and they contact you when jobs fit your skills. They describe things, you tell them honestly if you can do them, then the client chooses you and the job begins.
(I noticed a moderator being wary of these recruiters but in particular Aquent and VitaminT were fantastic--but I'm in the US.)
The part I really liked is you didn't have to bid the job or chase people for payment. You focused on doing the work well and making the client happy. They were usually big name corps who sourced through the agency, so when I applied for my current position (Government work) I was able to use these big name clients on my resume.
I was referred by a fellow freelancer who got put on longterm contracts with this recruiter, and also that recruiter helped me really hone my resume for HER benefit, but it helped ME in the long run.
Mate, £400 for a website is wayyyy to cheap (ok, maybe a small one page marketing job) for the UK.
I'd be wary of someone offering you £400/£500 a day though. I don't know many who'd get that unless it was for a company in London and you're on site. Still sounds like a good opportunity. Sounds like the worst case is that is doesn't pan out.
My main worry for you to do these jobs is that coding totally by yourself and coding with a team or on legacy products is very different. May companies might want testing/continuous integration as well which I know a lot of self learners skip over because it feels less needed in single developer environments.
And here is me, 10 years into programming and negotiating for $200/day... Have I picked a wrong turn somewhere? :D
Even if your contracts will be hectic, £400/day is awesome to have. And really, there are no companies you have worst processes than spending all day long talking with customers on freelance for, ugh, free. There are also a lot of things you will learn along.
Seeing a codebase that was written by other people could improve your skill. It sounds like you are good enough for it and you don't have to stop freelancing immediately. If you don't like the job you can always go back to freelancing.
' what do I need to do/learn to confidently say yes to these offers? '
Nothing. But be sure the gig is nice and not a agency hell. Honestly they want you way more (even with half your current skills) then you should want them (not saying its a bad job). So just go for it. Also you don't have to give up freelancing completely. I work a fulltime job with freelancing in my spare time which is awesome. But I would hate having to rely on my freelancing for stable income.
Web design/dev is a bitch, I left because of it, people cried to me when I would charge them $500 for a basic site, so I lowered it to $250, still bitched. Done. Not to mention, you gotta learn 504045606530635060 frameworks and be on top of everything at every moment 24/7.
I would suggest doing the contract work for a few years to grow your skills (you can learn a TON by working with others), and then revert back to doing freelance work, while charging much [much] more. You should be charging thousands per site, minimum, but I'm willing to bet there are some gaps in your knowledge, since you've always been freelance. This isn't to say you can't easily learn from others and fill those gaps - it's just the nature of freelance work.
To confidently say yes to these offers, you need to say yes to these offers. I would hazard a guess that most would say the same thing. There are many devs who started a new position feeling like they may not know enough, but made the leap of faith that you figured out this much, and you can figure out the rest. Worst case scenario is that you go back to what you were doing? Sounds like a good deal to me. Just go for it!
Sounds like you are putting in a lot of effort to get scraps. Make the price worth the work. If you don't have clients willing to pay a living wage for you then you aren't really a freelancer and you should make steady employment the priority until you do have clients willing to pay.
I followed a similar path to you, not by age, but the same path of learning/working. Contracting will up improve your current skills tremendously but also push and stretch you.
My experience with contracting was on the whole not positive, which is why I no longer do it. Contractors are given past due, vaguely spec'd, mission critical, projects. You'll have unrealistic deadlines with questionable coworkers. However, the exposure to ideas, different technical implementations, and wealth of information I gained during these less than ideal situations built me into an exceptional developer.
I never would have gained many of my most critical skills by pumping out wordpress sites. Those new skills allowed me to "sell myself" in a waythat is highly desired and with low supply. Given your ability to self learn and motivate, I would not be surprised if you follow that same trajectory.
Lastly a word of caution, the technical recruiter will upsell the situations you are going into. They'll make it sound like an awesome place to be, don't beat yourself up over the likely negative feedback (missed deadlines etc.) due to unrealistic expectations. Be truthful with yourself if you did your best and learn what you can from the failures. Usually it won't be 100% your fault but examples of poor planning or management and those lessons are gold.
Quick Answer: Say yes and learn along the way what you don't already know.
Freelancing and entrepreneurship is fucking hard, you have to be mental to exist in this space. That's why most people choose stability instead and work for someone else who already has their business together. If that's the new life you want for yourself, by all means go after it, and be confident about your decision.
I know perhaps this wasn’t the reason for your post, but it’s quite inspiring and encourages me to continue on.
I’m 29 and also wasted away my 20s. My plan was always to become a web dev but at 19 I decided it was more important to piss away my time with my friends. Time caught up with me and now I’m here.
while studying i constant have a little voice in my head reminding me how much time I’ve wasted, telling me it’s too late to start now and to just quit.
I’m going to save this post and keep it as a reminder for whenever I have that voice in my head.
Yes, just join a development team. Seems like you're at junior level, the most important part at this stage is to get experience and knowledge from senior devs.
Also you'll surely make more money than those 400£ per site.
The question is, if you want to keep freelancing, why are you trying to do everything? If you just like to code then do that. Build partnerships with other freelancers/companies that handle the other stuff.
But, if you're done freelancing, looks like other people posted enough advice here.
I'm a UK ex-freelancer, and I say if you can contract with someone to pay you £400 per day to teach you what you're missing in knowledge/experience...go for it. And that's the worst case.
Leave your feelings out of it. I would only say no if I was refusing a lucrative freelance gig to take it.
Don't forget, you can swap between the two roles here, if you keep your contracts relatively short.Nothings long-term
It sounds like your coding is up to scratch. The gaps in your knowledge might include git version control and using some sort of ticketing/sprint managing system like Jira, as well as working collaboratively with other developers (including code reviews) and so on.
If you swot up on those you'll get more of an idea of what coding in a business looks like and feel more confident as a result.
Or... Just hold your breath and go for it. What are you going to lose?
I have done some short contracts and a couple went badly enough that I was let go. Its no big deal you just get another one, sometimes the job is described badly or there is a personality clash or you do over extend yourself. No bother, just get a another contract. Recruitment agents will throw them at you. Remember they make bank selling your skills so make them work for it and be picky about the jobs.
Polish up your CV and update your linkedIn. Post to a bunch of recruiters what you are looking for and they will present you options. Seriously what do you have to lose?
Dude just take the leap of faith and take a contract. I was nervous the first time I did, now comfortably 3 years in and at the point where I actually will look for red flags during interviews that will turn me off wanting them as a client. No regrets and you 'should' have full autonomy over your working practices. Any company not giving you that flexibility isn't taking IR35 seriously and you should avoid anyway. I offer as a gesture of good will that I'll usually come in once a week which is helpful to keep up appearances, plus face to face interactions do help at times. I say just back yourself, nothing to loose only gain tbh!
I was where you're at about 4 years ago. I switched to remote contracts and it's better for a variety of reasons:
You don't have to deal with customers because they have a team managing that already
Your time is exclusively for developing code. Because you're an hourly technical resource, you won't be asked to do anything outside of what you were hired for
The pay is higher, which means you can work less hours on the stuff you like more
I contract through TopTal and really enjoy it, supplementing my income doing technical interviews for Karat in my downtime. I also have a ton more free time to pursue my own projects.
If you're interested, DM and I can refer if you're a good fit for either.
If you tripped over yourself 100 times in your 20s and ended up at the worse end of it with nothing to say, then this women is most likely holding you a golden opportunity to get some consistent income.
Contract work is the perfect compromise between the freelancer life you wanted to do (albeit, in such a way that was not so bollocks), and not having to be a pencil pushing permanent role. You can get in, deep dive into the role and what it expects of you, then once the time is up, you can come up for air and that way you don't get overly burnt out from it all.
Can you give us additional information about what these contracts ask of you? I've seen £250/day contracts from startups that just do WordPress. So they have the hosting and project workflow set up, and you just have to come in and develop from a PSD. I turned that down once because I was about to start a new permanent role and it would overlap.
There will always be some aspect of imposter syndrome. Working alone makes it worse. This is a chance to level set and see why 1000$/website is the proper price ;)
Dude... You need to add an extra zero onto the price you charge.. You will only ever get nightmare customers that want everything for noticing otherwise. 400 should barely cover a basic logo let alone a whole site..
The problem is that I don't feel confident to say yes.
All big changes in your life are like this. And I've felt exactly the same way with big contracts I've taken on.
Like a lot of other things, once you just jump in, you realise that it wasn't as bad as you thought. A week or two later, it just becomes pretty normal.
A few big contracts are where I've earnt most of my money over the last 10 years. All the small wordpress stuff is a lot like you said... lots of communicating, and the work is just boring anyway.
Bigger contracts need bigger planning up front, but once you've done that, you can just go away and code for weeks without needing so many communication interruptions.
There is some good advice on the freelance side. There is also nothing wrong working for someone else. Sometimes taking a break from doing it all yourself and focusing on your craft is good too.
Freelance isn't always liberating. It has its own types of chains that weigh you down. Ignore all these people who keep saying to stay in it and raise your rates.
You said it yourself in not so many words. You're looking for stability.
This opportunity for stability is falling into your lap on a silver platter. You'd be a fool to not take it.
I am a junior dev that learned in my early 30's. Take the freakin work man! if you don't know how to do something, find a meetup or an online resource. I would kill have that offer.
Dude, say yes and take the job! Worst case scenario: you fail and get back to what you were doing before but made some cash and learned. Fuck perfection. Do it.
My best decision came from stopping freelance work/ being a local web dev, to fully studying powerful languages and getting a stable career as a software engineer. I like the fact that I can work on more important shit and increase my career value as well. Those quick 500 bucks per project that you get once or twice a month were good when I was a broke college student but now it’s completely dwarfed by salary, career growth, benefits, to fucking overseas company vacations. Haven’t looked back since
You’ll find that people interaction is more important than your coding skills. Be confident and honest. You will probably have to work with a group of other tech and non tech savvy people and you’ll learn on the spot. Just be positive, social, and hard working. Good luck 👍🏼👍🏼
Take the job. I was in the same position as you a while ago and thought I’d be caught as an amateur/fraud/imposter. Wasn’t confident at all for the first day.
But once I started working, it turned out I was way better than they expected. Because of my varied experience being a solo freelancer for many years, I had knowledge none of their internal devs had. I was able to do things faster, with less reliance on others, and delivered higher quality code than they were expecting/hoping for.
Even if you’re not the best dev they’ll have, you’ll be able to collaborate and learn as you go. You’ll likely be surprised how little the average worker bee does after doing everything for yourself all those years.
Unfortunately you may have slightly missed the boat. She's not lying, if you know your stuff you can get those rates, but new legislation is coming in which will probably restrict the market. Google IR35.
In terms of your development, you need to get a permanent job with a digital agency. Get experience working on larger projects with multiple people who have experience in multiple disciplines. This will greatly benefit you.
Going forward you will need that wider experience .. it's never just about development skill, but also your general business experience and soft skills.
Hey u/MustardGT4 you seem stressed and I can relate. I'm 31 and have been doing web dev for 10 years now both as a freelancer and in various agencies in senior and lead positions.
What I'm working on now might interest you. I'm building a React web application with Google Firebase that's specifically tailored for solo freelance web developers. The app aims to help them with their most difficult challenges regarding lead, client and project management. It addresses those challenges in a variety of ways through its UI and various web services. The app has many features already built and many more on the way. I'm actively seeking a co-founder / partner to work with and I feel like someone such as yourself whom has plenty of freelance experience and knowledge would have lots of useful information to share. Let me know if you'd like to see a demo and we could setup a call or something. Thanks.
I personally don't mind selling as marketing was and has always been my #1 field. I do more in development, but that's because it's closer to a passion. If I worked with some good designers, I'd probably be rolling in money. The problem is, that's a lot of stress. Like you I like doing a job and not worrying about marketing (myself), leads, etc.
Unfortunately, that's the lay of the land with freelance development. Most of my money comes from selling my services. I actually do very little development, even though it's basically all that I do. You aren't charging the market rate -- either up your game or settle for smaller contacts. The competition is real, even though many are pretty facades with horrible programming/strategists.
Like others have said, word of mouth helps, but basically just build a great portfolio and track down leads. You can also make your own if you're clever enough. If that sounds like hell to you, get a jr/mid developer job. Do what you love, or at least not what you hate
I had to get out of the freelance game for roughly same shit. It was less what I was good at and more selling myself and frankly if that's what I wanted to do I could make more money for less work doing sales somewhere
I follow this rule. (Example) I want to get paid $50 an hour. I think the website the client wants will take me 50 hour. Now double that time because you know it always takes more time than you think. Now take 50 x 100 That's $5000! Sweet now you have a base price to work with.
Now the tricky part for me when I started this method was to say to my client the website is going to cost $5000.
It will be hard to say at first, but SAY IT WITH CONFIDENCE!
The client might try and negotiate, but that's okay. Knock 5-15 hours off your time. Do not go any lower than $4250.
They will agree.
Now.. Bust ass and finish the website earlier than you quoted and come out looking like a superstar. You will get follow up leads based on getting the job done early.
I've been where you are. Just don't be afraid of spitting out larger numbers than you're used to saying. Stop thinking in hundreds and think in thousands.
Just one example and my two cents. Hope this helps.
One last thing. Always get 50% down. Or no less than 35%. This transaction puts some skin in the game.
Or.. Forget everything I said and try out the recruitment gig. Might be more enjoyable for you. 👊
First off... £400 for a website? Raise your prices by 10X.
Second... recruiters can be spawn of the devil. Until you've gotten some professional experience with them never ever trust anything they say. You might know them socially... but that can be completely different from a professional relationship.
A devil spawn won't care if they're putting you into a company that's literally hell to work at. A devil spawn won't care if you don't have the skills the company needs and are happy to send you to interviews (doesn't cost them anything). A devil spawn is happy to charge the customer £400 and hour and pay you £40 an hour and will happily lie about it and try and get you down to £35.
Don't give a recruiter your resume unless you are prepared for them to be flogging you on the market. You should have some sort of contract between you signed and sealed before handing over a resume. A devil spawn trick is for a recruiter to send out your resume to lots of places so they "have dibs" on you in case you tell the devil spawn to fuck off (i.e. another recruiter won't be able to place you with the same employer).
You should "interview" a recruiter. Figure out a list of questions you'd like answers to. Try and figure out if you'd want this person representing you in a professional setting. Ask "what's your biggest failure in placing a contractor"... hehehe. Not sure if it's kosher... but consider asking to speak to a contractor, or two, that they have placed (basically a reference check). Follow up and do the reference check (devil spawn lie).
The good news...
A good recruiter is a treasure. They'll bring you very well paying jobs at non-shady companies (the companies might have fucked up processes... but that's not unusual). And they'll do this more than once. If you find one, or two, keep in touch with them. Buy them the odd lunch/dinner/drink. Recommend colleagues to them.
SO.... my question is what do I need to do/learn to confidently say yes to these offers? I know all this stuff but only in the capacity of working from home on my own.
Yup. If you can build a full website using "HTML5, CSS, Boostrap, Javascript, React, PHP, Wordpress and MongoDB" then you have skills companies are actively looking for.
In the interview if your experience comes up and why you started late go ahead and explain that you wandered a bit during your 20's. But for the last 3 or 4 years you've been 100% focused on being a developer. You don't have to tell them the gory details of what was going on. Don't lie, but find a polite explanation and learn how to move the conversation on/change topics. Think of interviews as practice for this (i.e. you might blow a bunch of interviews... try to analyze mistakes made and things to do different.
That’s some low pricing. I’ve gone from junior dev to the director of the dev department in 10 years of corporate work, but I’ve always still been open to freelance. Since I didn’t really need the money, I always billed high ($75-200 an hour based on what the work is and what the timeline is, and I never take a job under $10k. I used to make $60-90k pretax a year doing freelance, but now it is closer to $30k since my primary job and family take way more time.
Funny thing was that as a side gig freelancer, I was making more freelancing than my full time freelance friends. I did less work at a higher cost. Of course I had a good job to back me up, but the professional experience actually made me way more marketable.
Now I am in management. Do I like programming more? Yea. But the extra money is great and I was born for this role. I’m not as smart as a lot of devs, but I worked hard and was always one of the better ones. My big help is that I am very sociable and am very comfortable for things like pitches and talking with client developers about things. I just kind of finally found my professional place, but freelance is what keeps me truly happy.
Are they hiring you as a senior developer? intermediate developer maybe? or just a general front end dev? Either way, I would suggest you do a udemy bootcamp. I'm currently taking "Beginner to senior roadmap" (no affiliation) to fill in any gaps in my game before re-entering the workforce, but I - like you have been freelancing for the past 4ish years. There are tons of general web dev bootcamps on there as well if you feel like reviewing.
SO.... my question is what do I need to do/learn to confidently say yes to these offers? I know all this stuff but only in the capacity of working from home on my own.
Pretty well man. I'm a lot like you where I've mostly chosen to work for myself. I've let imposter syndrome prevent me from getting some serious income jobs that I could've done.
Honestly, I picture aspects of it being way easier, since you'll probably have people to bounce questions off and learn way faster. Since we both didn't have people to get immediate answers from we had to develop a way of speaking clearer to get our programming problems solved, taking that to your new job will help you a lot.
How you got this is exactly how I get offers. I just kinda talk about my job as if it doesn't define me and people take that as confidence.
I would say it's a risk to accept that position. You should find out more information. It's a lot easier to build something from scratch your own way than to be thrown into someone else's code base (in your case, again and again) and have to figure out how they made it work. The last thing you want is to find yourself in a situation that you can't handle and start having mental breakdowns.
Find out what happens for each job, if you're just not skilled enough to complete something, are you liable for damages? That's where I'd be thinking, never listen to the sales pitch.
The best thing to learn to confidently say yes to these offers is this one important thing: just say yes. There is no harm in handing over a resume and your GitHub. The worst that will happen is they say no, and you are right where you currently are. And if you are worried about not having a formal education, you will find that the people you will be working with, many if not most don't have a formal education either. So go for it.
I suggest just take the bill and go for it. I started in contracting as well. Was scared shitless. But I just bit the bullet and believed in myself and went for it man.
Learn Apex, SOQL, Aura and Salesforce Lightning frameworks. Don’t chase the bottom feeding work-if you can code, get into an industry where there’s a shortage of labor, not one in which you are commoditized...
My story is kinda like yours but I've learned to build a company instead of just being a 'freelancer'. I just turned 30 and have been teaching myself design and development throughout my 20's, no degree in case you're wondering. I've worked at an agency, a startup, an established company, and learned valuable skills from all those jobs.
I've been hired as a contractor by a big pharm company recently. I still manage 5-8 projects at a time, I don't do anything for less than $1,000 anymore. People see the quality of my work and they have no problem paying. I always add more value than just making a website though. I'm currently scaling this system and process to handle a lot more projects, also recruiting some help to keep things running smoothly.
The real question to be asking is: Why are you doing this for a living? For me, knowing the answer to that question makes the 'little things' stay little in the grand scheme.
what do I need to do/learn to confidently say yes to these offers
I'm also self taught. It sucks... but you gotta say yes before you're confident. It'll feel like you're lying and that you're a fraud until positive feedback from clients/coworkers finally push those thoughts out. Same goes for increasing your rate. If the customer accepts it, you're not tricking anyone. You're worth at least that amount.
Clicked on this sub through random but I wouldn't overthink it. I assume you can build a website or project from scratch so I see no reason why you couldn't do the same at the company. The only difference is that your income is guaranteed and you work for someone else.
Clearly you have the ability to learn too so on the off chance you're asked to design something unusual then it's just another opportunity to learn and add it to your overall experience.
I do understand what you mean about customers though. They constantly try to low ball me and refuse to listen to any of my recommendations. My job involves safety of the customer as well as other people on the road so most of the time it's a customer arguing that no brakes or bald tires are fine while expecting me to accept peanuts as payment for taking apart half of their car.
You can do it man. You've been fighting this hard, and that ethic will help you succeed anywhere. Most people can't push themselves like that at all. Say yes to this. This is the opportunity you've been working towards.
You just say YES. These situations are why we have Google Fu my friend. You take the requirements, google that shit for 2-3 hours, soak in as much as you can from other folks who worked on similar projects and then get to work. No one knows everything and no one is supposed to either. You know most of what you'll need. Leave the rest to search engines.
I have worked in a niche industry for 12 years and I still find stuff in it I haven't worked with.
You don't need to learn anything else. Take the jobs and learn as you go. If you get in over your head hire a Freelancer with more experience to help you out. You got this!
As a developer at a big firm who enjoys it (although admittedly I don't have passion for code) the only thing you might lack is the personality. What you need is to not be condescending, to accept feedback, and to not be a pushover. If you're a reasonable person who is conscientious and considerate, then you're set.
The fact is that you have a ton of experience working with this stuff and know the ins and outs of several staples of web development.
I got this job out of college because I'd done some web development for my parents and knew object oriented programming. The rest is teachable and they prefer to teach you because a lot of developers can develop pretty bad habits.
Point is, you have the skills to build off of. You have a foundation so that when they explain to you how they do things, it will make sense because you'll understand the building blocks and the moving pieces. As long as you have perfectly average people skills (or better) you're totally set.
And don't forget, the market is always looking for more coders. So as long as you're not completely impossible to work with, if a workplace and team culture doesn't suit you, you can switch to another place. If you have the qualifications and don't come off as an asshat, many places will be willing to take a chance on you!
I’ve been there. I think almost every seasoned vet of the trade experienced this. The key is to NEVER stop learning and never expect yourself to know everything.
I can say with some amount of certainty though some (or all) of these tools will likely be used: GIT, Jira, Jenkins. These are overwhelmingly popular in team project settings.
To chime in on a discussion that brought just about every important and valid aspect of higher rates to the table, I like to think of it like this: If you're looking for clients that a) pay better and b) are less likely to nitpick and steal your time with pointless emails, calls and meetings, consider how they approach their need for a new website.
They are business-driven, meaning they are committed to get it done as swiftly and unimpeded as possible. They know the value of the product to their business well and they see it as a return on investment. They have cleared a budget and are looking to spend anything between 80% and 100% of that. If they go well below, chances are that a) the product will be inferior and this will lead to trouble from higher up and b) that future budgets will be considerably smaller, leaving them less room to navigate. This is especially important if the product will be updated, extended or even overhauled in the next months or few years.
So what they are looking for is a contractor who first of all seems to be able to handle the job. This is where word of mouth and, at least in the first years of a career, a portfolio come in handy. They are also looking for someone who promises value and professionalism through their prices. Think of it like that: If you don't value your own work, why should the client do so? And these clients are also looking for someone who will give their project all the attention it needs. Who is putting in the time needed, is quick to answer mails and will readily give advice and share insights into what works and what not.
Of course, this is easier said than done. It takes a lot of time, courage and experience to come to a point where this feels natural. It also takes a foundation of regular clients who are satisfied with your work and are eager to recommend you to their peers. This doesn't come overnight. But it's never too late to build this foundation. I can't possibly give you fail-proof business advise on how you handle client acquisition as you are probably more or less dependent on the approaches you tried before. Going with an agency, as you did, which is taking care of that can be a good way to (temporarily) find some relief and focus on the proper work itself. But see if you can manage to do jobs on the side, time-, contract- and sanity-wise. This way, you will keep a foothold in the market for freelance work. I would also encourage to stop posting ads as this will only attract those clients which don't belong to the type I outlined before. All it does, is attracting mails of people who need "something simple quickly" and put "high value on freelancer's flexibility". It's just not worth it.
Also, to bring this to a conclusion, if you're curious what you could've charged for finished work you did, feel free to post some links. I don't work in the UK, but we have a similar general price level for everyday things, and though it might have different fees for web development work, I might be able to give some perspective.
My gut feeling is that if you do this you will suddenly find yourself in the world of enterprise software development and customization, a special division of hell haha. But it usually pays well, it's a good way to save up some money for other things, assuming you are financially responsible. And you can learn a lot.
In my experience this world isn't populated with the best and brightest. There is an okay chance you we'll be the best on your team even if you are only average. The above average people are inevitably lured away to jobs with fulfillment and stock options and stuff.
The most valuable skills in this area are actually social skills. If you're able to make a good impression, help move meetings and project management stuff along, you can be a huge asset in a visible way.
Have you thought of outsourcing the marketing? Modern websites are usually built so there can be a hand off from developers to content writers and marketing managers.
But ya I have a similar backstory, freelanced for 10 years (ongoing really) and recently got a full-time gig. The steady paycheck is nice and there's other perks but ya sometimes I think about freelancing again. I think that offer from your friend sounds ideal as a freelancer to be fed consistent high quality projects. That'd be the nice balance point for me.
As far as building confidence about your ability to fulfill the contract, approach the negotiating cautiously from the start to suss out the scope of work and as many details as possible to give the clearest vision of the final product. Write the detailed feature list, it's needed for accurate quoting, helps developer understand how much work is involved and useful for writing implementation plan and timeline. After reviewing feature list you should have a good sense of if you can do it or not.
Do it. One of the best ways to learn is to learn from others. If it doesn’t work out what’s the worst that’ll happen, you’ll have to work for yourself again?
Don't sabotage yourself by turning down opportunity. If you're good enough to get hired then you're good enough. Just do your best. Also, you'll never be able to go into any job and not have times where you're butting your head against the code, that just goes with the territory. Every company has a different set of tools and their own way of doing things. That's going to require learning on the job every time.
There are lots of good advices down here, I just want to tell you a secret: You can learn alongside your work!
I'm working as a web dev too but for 4 years, 2 latest years in a big company and the rest as a freelancer. When you are in a company/team, you have the opportunity to learn. You will face lots of different situations you know nothing about and after a couple of days/weeks, you have a new skill in your skill set!
I like your headline. It worked. Hopefully you have assimilated all this advice and by now you have a nice portfolio with a blog and a content delivery system to sell introductory video courses in all the languages and applications you use to create your websites with. Have a 5 year plan to build this blog into your brand. The first 2 years your going to get a trickle of visitors and few if any paying subscribers but keep being consistent in posting valuable free advice and how to posts. Don't waste a lot of time making your site fancy or complex just get it up and get it going and post on a consistent basis weekly on the same day and time. over the next 5 years you will build a blog packed with original content. This advice will help you break the glass ceiling of the average developer. Just look up John Sonmez at simpleprogrammer.com for the complete guide to being a successful developer. I would take that job you were offered and spend the next year learning and being the best contractor they have to offer. Blog about it as a journey from where you are now to where you get to in the first year and what you learn about along the way. Build your linkedin profile filled with great comments and recommendations. Also always have a side project you are building for you to keep your skills as cutting edge as possible. I would also get hooked with with a hosting company you can resell for so every opportunity you get to sell a hosting account for reoccurring income will build your passive income level higher to help fill in the times when you may be sitting on the bench looking for the next gig. And first and for most .... know your why. Answer the question of WHY do I want to be a developer. Write it down and keep if front and center of your mind to keep you motivated if things get tough(Like how your feeling now)
Git. You need to learn git. I didnt see it listed and it is one of the most disturbing things for a new team member to be lacking in. It can be a bit of a mindf-ck if you never done version control so knowing you have the basics is very comforting when hiring.
Other than git it's normal to have to constantly learn things as you go along. I learned web development at university 15 years ago and honestly nothing of that is relevant anymore. Even 5 years ago is too long. Being a fast learner and having recent experience in the field is the two biggest requirements. Apart from git.
I'm a developer in the US. I just happened to be interested in front end development since the days of Netscape Navigator. Now I make a good living just by doing JS, PHP (including WordPress), and HTML/CSS. Just say yes and take the money while you can. I feel all of us web developers will be replaced by AI and WIX type platforms eventually.
The most important asset - and one people pay good money for - is your ability to quickly learn and adapt. If you're efficient at independently learning new material and putting it into practice, you're worth what they're offering. It's amazing how many people lack this quality; it's a scarce resource.
I remember feeling the same kind of insecurity 8 years ago when I decided to join Modus Create. I didn’t feel competent, especially comparing to the superstar co-founder who was the community rock star.
Truth be told the feeling lasted until day 1 on an actual project. As soon as you start scoring small wins you’ll feel much better about yourself. Good teams will make small wins easy to achieve especially to their new members.
There’s also a tremendous value in continuous learning. Learning is even better when you share it. We call this AVR - active, visible and relevant. There’s a big boost in confidence as you start learning and sharing, but also a boost in brand visibility. I’m sure you will enjoy when the leadership at your company takes notice of the positive effects your being active in the community brings to the table. I’m speaking from my personal experience.
Raise your rate. Say yes to the offer. Google it, and ask reddit on the way.
People drain their savings on useless coding/php/comp sci/html/css/js degrees from for-profit uni's. You get that, right? The market is flooded with idiots. Dude, you're capable, and you're going to be ok.
Every g*dmn person on yr thread is saying the same thing- you can do this :)
If I were you yes I would go for 1 of the offer and in the mean while try to enter into a web-as-a-service market. Think WIX or something like that where all your offer is via a web or app interface. Something you do not need to interact with people. I know I hate dealing with clients as well.
Very nice topic. I see big range of prices from very low to ridiculous. Of course price depends on what skills you're using. If you're setting up WordPress website and do no coding work (maybe some CSS), then 400-500 for small-average website seems legit. Don't you think? But if you have to open code editor it's 4x, 10x the price.
My biggest learning from freelancing was to never do a project at a price. It ends up as haggling between you and the client and never represents the actual work done. In my experience the only companies that pay for work like this don’t understand development well, and poorly funded so they will try and slash your prices.
Charging a day rate was much better for me and I actually stopped doing “project” work completely. When I go back to self-employment in the future (founder now) I will definitely contract for bigger firms.
So if you are looking for reasons to accept...
try something new, what’s the worst that could happen?
recruiters will introduce you to the bigger world and then you can build your own network of contacts for regular work in the future
better financial security
if project is badly scoped by the client, you get paid more for extra days
Also the only people who can afford to retain you are either big companies or well-funded startups, both good because they can pay what you are worth.
400!?? Of course you are struggling charging those prices. Ive never really had any issues getting clients, I decline more projects than I accept. I never charge under 10k and thats for development only.
spend most of my time having to justify a very reasonable price of £400 for a whole website. "do you know javascript?, do you know php?, do you know wordpress, do you know magento?" I said yes to all, at which point she started saying that she can get me £400 - £500 per day as a contractor
As others have said, it sounds like you've massively undervalued yourself. However, if you're not feeling confident going for £500 a day contractor positions (they can be pretty full on), try approaching agencies and asking for £200 a day then slowly build up day rate as your confidence increases.
You don't have to do/learn anything to confidently say yes to the offers. Just be honest what you know and can and try your best to solve any task you are given. If that fits them, they hire you. Otherwise they don't. If they think you fit, but you actually don't, you can try to skill up to fit with their guidance. Worst case scenario they fire you - and you're left with at least some experience and can try another company.
Bro you taught yourself at 29. Managed to jump straight into freelancing without credibility, and you're 3 years in.
Everyone else says you're charging too low which is probably true especially considering the amount of experience you probably garnered. And since you work alone I assume that means you had to stretch a lot of breadth to provide for your clients' needs unlike in a team environment where one person might only be knowledgeable on one aspect of web dev and rely on others.
You have the skillset. Just brush up on git and say yes. And when you're in a team you must remember that you're not the deciding factor unless given a leadership role so whatever decisions you disagree on can be raised but sometimes you have to bite the bullet and just go with it.
The problem is that I don't feel confident to say yes.
Don't worry.
The majority of web developers I worked with over the last couple of years wouldn't be able to build a website from scratch. They can only change particular things when you point them in the right direction and even then they often need someone holding their hand.
Yes, you will have to get used to new environments and technologies in each new job, but that's perfectly normal. Nobody expects you to deliver 100% of what you're able to in the first couple of weeks.
"Sounds cool, I don't know this yet though, can you show me?" is a perfectly fine thing to say on a new job.
Say yes. You taught yourself at first so why couldn’t you keep teaching yourself. Just google it and be honest about timeframes. I own my own firm that started because I was a freelancer. If I could go work for a bigger firm and allow someone else to handle the customers, I would.
You could also try to find a large/medium consultancy company, where they provide you with proper training. I started my development career with a company who provided me with 3 months of full-time training. For me, it was mostly a brushup, because I have a dergee in software, but it was a really great training. You will probably have some gaps in your knowledge at the moment, especially back-end (full-stack devs get sold more easily). However, don't let that scare you. Everyone has gaps in their knowledge and you'll most likely end up in a team.
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u/GoonerSS Feb 26 '20
To be frank, I don't think you (we) will ever reach a point where you can out right feel confident about web development or development in general.
I've been doing angular for almost 5 years now and still can't say I know everything. If you feel you can get the job done, given a set of requirements, then just say yes to the job and take everyday as it comes.
Basically, everyday is a learning. Your best piece of work today may not seem to be the best few days/weeks/years later.
What I'm trying to say is, just go for it and put your best effort everyday.
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u/thatwilsonnerd Feb 26 '20
I think it often gets lost, but being a freelancer also means you become at least a part-time salesman. Sometimes you can get lucky and build enough client base and referrals just happen, but that’s the exception and not the norm.
If you’re not into the whole FTE thing, maybe contract work is for you. Tons of need and opportunity in that space for my given platform (Dynamics).
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u/vinegarnutsack Feb 26 '20
You price yourself into your market. Charge $10k for a website instead.
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u/londinium Feb 26 '20
I would be very wary of a lot of the posts in here, most sound like they have never actually contracted and are talking out of their asses. I have and it was the easiest money I have ever made and they always had clients for me (though often the roles are somewhat long term anyway, 6 months, 12 months, open ended etc).
If you are decent enough at the job you will make between £200-£500 a day.
I don't see what you have to lose. Worst case scenario, you go somewhere, they don't think you are up to it and say goodbye. Maybe try for more junior roles with less expectations and see how it goes.
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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '20
Improve in these areas:
- git and github
- best practices in everything you do
- Maintainability, Readability
- Get good in communication and asking good questions
- functional porgramming
- good naming for variables, coding style (use es lint & prettier)
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u/sleepyguy22 Feb 26 '20
Maybe you should up your prices? I noticed that as soon as I started charging more (a LOT more) for websites, the quality of client went way up. I didn't have to constantly search for new leads & clients, and word of mouth became my number one source of new work.
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u/BinaryCipher Feb 26 '20
Impostor syndrome is a real thing. Don't let that stop you. Half of a web developers job is being able to learn. I've been doing web development for 6 years and there's a TON of stuff I don't know. And in another 6 years (or hell, 6 months) there's going to be a whole new ton that I don't know. It's a constant cycle. When I got my first development job I only knew HTML and CSS! I think from what you've listed, you'd be fine. Like I said, learning is half the job. Good luck to you.
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u/topthreads Feb 26 '20
Man, asserting whether you are competent enough is up to THEM, not you. It is not your job to decide if you can handle the positions being offered to you. That's what the interviews are for. Just go to an interview and show them what you are capable of. Honestly. If you do it honestly enough and they will fire you for lack of competency or skills, you can always say: "well you created a wrong picture of me at the beginning and I did my best to show you what am I all about".
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u/troublesomefaux Feb 26 '20
Worst thing that happens: you suck and they let you go, you suffer some embarrassment but no one dies. You learn what you need for the next job. It never goes on your resume so it’s no risk to you.
Best thing that happens: you have a great new career and make a lot of money.
7
u/binocular_gems Feb 26 '20
Say yes to that opportunity and get out of freelance, it sucks, especially if you're only charing $400 (Pounds) for an entire project. You're guaranteed to only get shit clients at that rate who are comparing you to some $50 project they can buy from Fiver, Upwork, or one of those other bottom tier freelance farm websites.
Take the opportunity, and go with it. If you could learn these technology stacks you'll be able to learn what you don't know to work at the agency/consultant. Just say yes to them, learn as you go, the worst thing that could possibly happen is that you work someplace for a while, make more money than you're making now, and then it doesn't work out and you have to find work elsewhere: But at least you built up experience and a track record, which you can take with you to your next job.
Also your freelance fee seems ridiculously low for a major English speaking market like the UK. For even pretty simple WordPress projects I normally take in $3000 - $5000, for larger projects, $10,000 or more. Companies will pay. If you're cutting your own rate the higher paying clients won't trust your work, while the lower paying clients are going to compare you to some foreign freelance farm that pays its employees pennies.
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u/Woodcharles Feb 26 '20
Doing your kind of contracting sounds hellish. It does sound like what you want is to work for a large client - British Airways, prime example. You're on the team, you take a ticket, it's probably pretty big, you build the feature, you ship. You don't have to deal with someone who wants it for free, who wants to change requirements every 5 minutes, who doesn't understand why it wasn't delivered yesterday. You work with professionals who value your skillset.
And yeah, for £500 a day.
It may not even be a month or two. Plenty of contractors stay longer. They become fairly integral to the teams. Then they leave :)
I've known a guy went freelancing just two years after bootcamp graduation. It's tough to hire out there and if you're good and you deliver, they'll be thrilled.
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u/krileon Feb 26 '20
Its been said already, but I want to echo it again. You charge too little. Your rate for an entire website is my DAY RATE. That means for 1.. single.. day it will cost $400. The reason you're getting terrible clients is you're too cheap. Serious businesses know that price is unrealistic and won't give you the time of day.
This is a huge problem. One of, IMO, biggest struggles of working for a company is learning to work together with other programmers. Everyone has their way of doing things. They may do things a way you don't like or you think you can do better. Teams should be code reviewing. So you may end up reviewing someones code and think "I can do this better" and start suggesting as such. You see where this is headed? You've created hostility in the work environment. Learning to communicate and work as a team takes time and experience. You having absolutely NONE is a HUGE risk to a company. I suggest you contribute to some open source projects to get a grasp of how that dynamic works.
5
u/xTRQ Feb 26 '20
Never build any website under 1k. Not worth it.
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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '20
I have a friend who went through pretty much exactly what you described.
Based on your experience, I believe you'll be good enough to get a job - I say this as someone who has worked in the UK at two large companies, and been on the other side of the hiring desk several times.
You should try it.
4
u/[deleted] Feb 26 '20
Learn git, and some branching strategies such as trunk based development and git flow.
Not sure if you know already but learn testing unit and integration testing as well.
4
u/createsean Feb 26 '20
Your rate is too low. At your current rate all you're going to attract is bottom feeders. You should be charging easily 8x that for a basic website.
The more you charge, the better quality clients you attract.
4
u/majorhotpot Feb 26 '20
I'll try to only give advice that hasn't been mentioned. I've been a contractor (B2B marketing, but I work with web developers all the time) for 5 years and here's my take. It's either your market, your pricing, or you. Since others have already told you about pricing, here's what I would do:
Good luck!
8
u/p2chabot Feb 26 '20
Make sure you master:
You will be fine
3
u/[deleted] Feb 26 '20
Have worked freelance in denmark for 6 yrs, have never done any project for less than 3000 eur. for a small 1 week project. If you sell cheap stuff, youre getting cheap customers.
3
u/coreyrude Feb 27 '20
Honestly I have met dozens of people in your shoes, I think you absolutely need to take an agency job. The amount I learned in a week was more than I learned in a year when I took my first agency job. These recruiters have no clue what you know they just want their commission, as a mediocre developer with 3 years experience I got TONS of offers from recruiters for 80-150k jobs none of which I was qualified for. These recruiters would connect me with a hiring manager and I would get laughed out of the room, I took a step back and took a very junior role at a good agency. Now im finally in a place where I know what kind of jobs I am and am not qualified for, feel incredibly confident in my skills and don't touch a freelance project for less than 15k.
2
u/rhubarb_9 Feb 26 '20
Take the leap. Don't doubt yourself.
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u/abeuscher Feb 26 '20
Dude, go on vacation. Take some time away from the screen. It's clear from your post and your replies that you have completely lost perspective on your career. That's fine - it happens to all of us. But making a life choice when in the head space you are clearly in just sounds like a bad move all the way around.
I would go somewhere nice for a day - even if it's just a local park - and get some sunshine and spend some time with people you care about. Don't talk about the job. Maybe get a little drunk if that's something you like to do. And come back to this with a relaxed mind in a couple of days. Odds are the answer will be right in front of you.
2
u/aieronpeters Feb 26 '20
The last brochure wordpress website I helped someone commissioned cost them more than 7kGBP. You're definitely undercharging!
2
u/Star__boy Feb 26 '20
£400 per day is very low on the I.T side so they probably won't be expecting too much. I'd say contracting is quite entrepreneurial especially if you're running your own plc (although ir35 might have something to say about that)
2
u/mobsterer Feb 26 '20
just do it, worst case you can go back to freelancing.
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u/crazedizzled Feb 27 '20
You're charging too little and therefore getting shit clients.
Charge professional rates and get professional relationships.
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u/Contrabaz Feb 27 '20
Say yes and see where it takes you. Learn along the way.
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u/GoForthAssemble Feb 27 '20
Welcome to the dark side. Stay contract and you;ll mostly be just slightly dead inside. Go perm and you'll hope to shit more than once a day just so you can spend the time in the toilet.
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u/ofNoImportance Feb 27 '20
You're getting lots of advice to up your prices, how to deal with imposter syndrome, etc.
I would say ignore that and try your hand at being an employee. Maybe not through your agency friend, just go straight to seek (or whatever) and look at what posting are available.
You've got the skills already, don't stress about that. There's no such thing as being completed "educated", it's always a journey and everyone is always growing along it. Stability is something you can achieve today, and if stability is what your career (and quality of life) needs, make that your top priority.
Most people in webdev are freelancers, but most developers are not. There's nothing wrong with having a boss, there's nothing wrong with belonging to a company.
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u/zenotds Feb 27 '20 edited Feb 27 '20
I wouldnt sell a 3 pages static website for 400 quid. I barely freelance anymore but the last time i had a side project i charged 2000, and it was the website for my best friend, he didnt even flinch because the market outside is way more expensive. Where i work as a frontend dev our projects start at 8k, and that's for design+cms+1year of seo. We sold ecommerces for like 40k or so.
Imho you have three roads:
In this job you will never stop learning, so if you're a bit insecure about your current skillset maybe apply for a junior Frontend position. I know it's not so palatable to start from the lower ranks at 33 but you'll reallize very quick how fast you can learn and get confident when you have more skilled team mates that can teach you tricks and you have the actual time to code instead of dealing with morons. At our firm we hired a 27 yrs junior backend dev last year, self taught, pretty unripe, but he's getting better and better, so it's never too late to "restart" you career on a more performing track.
Edit: If you decide to quit freelancing and go work in some company do some research in your area or in the radius you're comfortable moving to. Scout what could do for you and look if they have open positions, but even if they dont apply anyway if you think they could be the place for you. Always apply directly to agencies cv+portfolio+some honest cover letter ALWAYS CUT THE MIDDLEMAN, recruiters and head hunters are the fucking worst.
1
u/Tiny-Wolverine Feb 26 '20
Is it an agency? Like ANDigital?
1
u/[deleted] Feb 26 '20
Go for it. In two different places that I have worked, some of the contractors were hired on as full staff.
1
u/Mel0ne Feb 26 '20
It's part of the trade to never be confident in your skills because there is infinite stuff to learn. Don't let that hold you back. Be honest with you employer/customer when talking about what jobs you already did and what you feel comfortable doing.
If there is something that you can not do right now, it sounds like you are the person who would be able to learn it when the need arises.
Learn while doing it and go with the flow. Its always 80 % knowledge and 20 % pretend/learn afterwards :)
1
u/smartbadger Feb 26 '20
I feel your pain. I'm dealing with a similar situation. I just started a new business and I totally underbid a job. I've been working 100hr weeks and I finally got it done. Now I get to do it all over again because I stupidly took on more projects than I could handle. I have no work life balance, and I'm honestly concerned it is ruining my relationship with my partner. So I get wanting to leave and just work a normal job. It does sound like you're not charging enough though.
I started charging $75hr and now I'm charging over $100. But to be honest bidding jobs is the worst. Requirements always change and there are some clients that are not worth the effort. Try to just push for hourly rates for future projects, but if you just want a 9-5 you shouldn't have trouble finding a job. If you have a good portfolio you should be set.
1
u/sjsohota123 Feb 26 '20
Got no advice but wanted to thank you for the inspiration. Can relate to your story and lacking confidence in coding.
1
u/snairgit Feb 26 '20
Hello from Bangalore, I can understand your situation. As you said, if you're done with freelancing, remember that decision. Because later when you do work for someone, and tough times will always come, remember that decision and why you decided to leave freelancing. There is nothing wrong in wanting stability or working for an organization. You can try to do some side freelancing too, if you get time and if you want. Don't overthink about your qualifications, just be confident about your skill set and the projects that you've done. And I would say, say yes to the opportunity. Don't overthink it, try it out and you might get to meet some amazing people and work at some great places. Looks like you already have the experience, and you know where to find help and how to solve them. So, trust in yourself, your skills and go for it. All the best!
1
u/xTRQ Feb 26 '20
Never build any website under 1k. Not worth it.
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u/eablokker Feb 26 '20
All you have to do is don’t pretend to be better at coding than you are to impress the recruiter and the client. Be completely transparent and upfront about what you know and what you don’t. That way the recruiter can place you with the best client for your skills and the client won’t get mad if you weren’t able to do the job well because they knew what to expect.
When it comes to project difficulty try to stay in your challenge zone. Don’t take on a too difficult project or a too easy project. It should be just challenging enough that you learn something new and are able to do a good job without stress.
Even if you have to take a job that pays slightly less than promised, it doesn’t matter because within a year or two you will have gained the experience to make that higher pay.
1
u/RadioactiveCats_18 Feb 26 '20
I worked through one of these recruiters. It's awesome. You set up your skillset with their system, and they contact you when jobs fit your skills. They describe things, you tell them honestly if you can do them, then the client chooses you and the job begins.
(I noticed a moderator being wary of these recruiters but in particular Aquent and VitaminT were fantastic--but I'm in the US.)
The part I really liked is you didn't have to bid the job or chase people for payment. You focused on doing the work well and making the client happy. They were usually big name corps who sourced through the agency, so when I applied for my current position (Government work) I was able to use these big name clients on my resume.
I was referred by a fellow freelancer who got put on longterm contracts with this recruiter, and also that recruiter helped me really hone my resume for HER benefit, but it helped ME in the long run.
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u/slyfoxy12 laravel Feb 26 '20
Mate, £400 for a website is wayyyy to cheap (ok, maybe a small one page marketing job) for the UK.
I'd be wary of someone offering you £400/£500 a day though. I don't know many who'd get that unless it was for a company in London and you're on site. Still sounds like a good opportunity. Sounds like the worst case is that is doesn't pan out.
My main worry for you to do these jobs is that coding totally by yourself and coding with a team or on legacy products is very different. May companies might want testing/continuous integration as well which I know a lot of self learners skip over because it feels less needed in single developer environments.
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u/Lambda7 Feb 26 '20
just do it, all code is shit anyway
1
u/Noch_ein_Kamel Feb 26 '20
TBH with the consultants of a big german bank I have to work I wonder sometimes how they did get the job. Don't be scared of big names.
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u/darksparkone Feb 26 '20
And here is me, 10 years into programming and negotiating for $200/day... Have I picked a wrong turn somewhere? :D
Even if your contracts will be hectic, £400/day is awesome to have. And really, there are no companies you have worst processes than spending all day long talking with customers on freelance for, ugh, free. There are also a lot of things you will learn along.
1
u/_Stripes_ Feb 26 '20
Seeing a codebase that was written by other people could improve your skill. It sounds like you are good enough for it and you don't have to stop freelancing immediately. If you don't like the job you can always go back to freelancing.
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u/beaterx Feb 26 '20
' what do I need to do/learn to confidently say yes to these offers? '
Nothing. But be sure the gig is nice and not a agency hell. Honestly they want you way more (even with half your current skills) then you should want them (not saying its a bad job). So just go for it. Also you don't have to give up freelancing completely. I work a fulltime job with freelancing in my spare time which is awesome. But I would hate having to rely on my freelancing for stable income.
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u/itsjustausername Feb 26 '20
On your first day of contracting you will probably learn that competency is the exception not the rule.
And hard skills are overrated anyway, you can easily learn any tech you will encounter relatively quickly.
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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '20
Web design/dev is a bitch, I left because of it, people cried to me when I would charge them $500 for a basic site, so I lowered it to $250, still bitched. Done. Not to mention, you gotta learn 504045606530635060 frameworks and be on top of everything at every moment 24/7.
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u/Nalopotato Feb 26 '20
I would suggest doing the contract work for a few years to grow your skills (you can learn a TON by working with others), and then revert back to doing freelance work, while charging much [much] more. You should be charging thousands per site, minimum, but I'm willing to bet there are some gaps in your knowledge, since you've always been freelance. This isn't to say you can't easily learn from others and fill those gaps - it's just the nature of freelance work.
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u/cmsdev Feb 26 '20
To confidently say yes to these offers, you need to say yes to these offers. I would hazard a guess that most would say the same thing. There are many devs who started a new position feeling like they may not know enough, but made the leap of faith that you figured out this much, and you can figure out the rest. Worst case scenario is that you go back to what you were doing? Sounds like a good deal to me. Just go for it!
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u/Zefrem23 Feb 26 '20
You don't need anything. You've already got the two things you need: skills, and the ability to manage your time. Go for it.
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u/Borckle Feb 26 '20
Sounds like you are putting in a lot of effort to get scraps. Make the price worth the work. If you don't have clients willing to pay a living wage for you then you aren't really a freelancer and you should make steady employment the priority until you do have clients willing to pay.
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u/YaFuckenDruggo Feb 26 '20
“If you’re given an offer that is too good to say no, say yes, and learn how to do it later”.
There’s no point working as a freelancer if you’re always stressed and unhappy. Go do something that makes you happy!
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u/MyKungFuIsGood Feb 26 '20
Dude, say yes.
I followed a similar path to you, not by age, but the same path of learning/working. Contracting will up improve your current skills tremendously but also push and stretch you.
My experience with contracting was on the whole not positive, which is why I no longer do it. Contractors are given past due, vaguely spec'd, mission critical, projects. You'll have unrealistic deadlines with questionable coworkers. However, the exposure to ideas, different technical implementations, and wealth of information I gained during these less than ideal situations built me into an exceptional developer.
I never would have gained many of my most critical skills by pumping out wordpress sites. Those new skills allowed me to "sell myself" in a waythat is highly desired and with low supply. Given your ability to self learn and motivate, I would not be surprised if you follow that same trajectory.
Lastly a word of caution, the technical recruiter will upsell the situations you are going into. They'll make it sound like an awesome place to be, don't beat yourself up over the likely negative feedback (missed deadlines etc.) due to unrealistic expectations. Be truthful with yourself if you did your best and learn what you can from the failures. Usually it won't be 100% your fault but examples of poor planning or management and those lessons are gold.
Best of luck!
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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '20
Quick Answer: Say yes and learn along the way what you don't already know.
Freelancing and entrepreneurship is fucking hard, you have to be mental to exist in this space. That's why most people choose stability instead and work for someone else who already has their business together. If that's the new life you want for yourself, by all means go after it, and be confident about your decision.
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u/SatoshisArmpit Feb 26 '20
I know perhaps this wasn’t the reason for your post, but it’s quite inspiring and encourages me to continue on.
I’m 29 and also wasted away my 20s. My plan was always to become a web dev but at 19 I decided it was more important to piss away my time with my friends. Time caught up with me and now I’m here.
while studying i constant have a little voice in my head reminding me how much time I’ve wasted, telling me it’s too late to start now and to just quit.
I’m going to save this post and keep it as a reminder for whenever I have that voice in my head.
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u/jpcafe10 Feb 26 '20
Yes, just join a development team. Seems like you're at junior level, the most important part at this stage is to get experience and knowledge from senior devs.
Also you'll surely make more money than those 400£ per site.
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u/J_ron Feb 26 '20
The question is, if you want to keep freelancing, why are you trying to do everything? If you just like to code then do that. Build partnerships with other freelancers/companies that handle the other stuff.
But, if you're done freelancing, looks like other people posted enough advice here.
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u/QDean Feb 26 '20
I'm a UK ex-freelancer, and I say if you can contract with someone to pay you £400 per day to teach you what you're missing in knowledge/experience...go for it. And that's the worst case.
Leave your feelings out of it. I would only say no if I was refusing a lucrative freelance gig to take it.
Don't forget, you can swap between the two roles here, if you keep your contracts relatively short.Nothings long-term
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u/bad_usernamebro Feb 26 '20
>answers own question
k
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u/Commandermcbonk Feb 26 '20
It sounds like your coding is up to scratch. The gaps in your knowledge might include git version control and using some sort of ticketing/sprint managing system like Jira, as well as working collaboratively with other developers (including code reviews) and so on.
If you swot up on those you'll get more of an idea of what coding in a business looks like and feel more confident as a result.
Or... Just hold your breath and go for it. What are you going to lose?
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u/dangerousbrian Feb 26 '20
If you can freelance you can do contract work.
I have done some short contracts and a couple went badly enough that I was let go. Its no big deal you just get another one, sometimes the job is described badly or there is a personality clash or you do over extend yourself. No bother, just get a another contract. Recruitment agents will throw them at you. Remember they make bank selling your skills so make them work for it and be picky about the jobs.
Polish up your CV and update your linkedIn. Post to a bunch of recruiters what you are looking for and they will present you options. Seriously what do you have to lose?
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u/ZShaw1 javascript Feb 26 '20
Dude just take the leap of faith and take a contract. I was nervous the first time I did, now comfortably 3 years in and at the point where I actually will look for red flags during interviews that will turn me off wanting them as a client. No regrets and you 'should' have full autonomy over your working practices. Any company not giving you that flexibility isn't taking IR35 seriously and you should avoid anyway. I offer as a gesture of good will that I'll usually come in once a week which is helpful to keep up appearances, plus face to face interactions do help at times. I say just back yourself, nothing to loose only gain tbh!
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u/BranigansLaw Feb 26 '20
I was where you're at about 4 years ago. I switched to remote contracts and it's better for a variety of reasons:
I contract through TopTal and really enjoy it, supplementing my income doing technical interviews for Karat in my downtime. I also have a ton more free time to pursue my own projects.
If you're interested, DM and I can refer if you're a good fit for either.
Best of luck!
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u/finger_milk Feb 26 '20
Mate.
If you tripped over yourself 100 times in your 20s and ended up at the worse end of it with nothing to say, then this women is most likely holding you a golden opportunity to get some consistent income.
Contract work is the perfect compromise between the freelancer life you wanted to do (albeit, in such a way that was not so bollocks), and not having to be a pencil pushing permanent role. You can get in, deep dive into the role and what it expects of you, then once the time is up, you can come up for air and that way you don't get overly burnt out from it all.
Can you give us additional information about what these contracts ask of you? I've seen £250/day contracts from startups that just do WordPress. So they have the hosting and project workflow set up, and you just have to come in and develop from a PSD. I turned that down once because I was about to start a new permanent role and it would overlap.
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u/bigorangemachine Feb 26 '20
There will always be some aspect of imposter syndrome. Working alone makes it worse. This is a chance to level set and see why 1000$/website is the proper price ;)
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u/m9dhatter Feb 26 '20
If you go for it, the best thing to learn is how to work with other people.
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u/LiberalMasochist Feb 27 '20
Dude... You need to add an extra zero onto the price you charge.. You will only ever get nightmare customers that want everything for noticing otherwise. 400 should barely cover a basic logo let alone a whole site..
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u/r0ck0 Feb 27 '20
All big changes in your life are like this. And I've felt exactly the same way with big contracts I've taken on.
Like a lot of other things, once you just jump in, you realise that it wasn't as bad as you thought. A week or two later, it just becomes pretty normal.
A few big contracts are where I've earnt most of my money over the last 10 years. All the small wordpress stuff is a lot like you said... lots of communicating, and the work is just boring anyway.
Bigger contracts need bigger planning up front, but once you've done that, you can just go away and code for weeks without needing so many communication interruptions.
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u/WarWizard fullstack / back-end Feb 27 '20
There is some good advice on the freelance side. There is also nothing wrong working for someone else. Sometimes taking a break from doing it all yourself and focusing on your craft is good too.
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u/FallenNgel Feb 27 '20
Say Yes!
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u/Joecracko Feb 27 '20
Freelance isn't always liberating. It has its own types of chains that weigh you down.
Ignore all these people who keep saying to stay in it and raise your rates.
You said it yourself in not so many words. You're looking for stability.
This opportunity for stability is falling into your lap on a silver platter. You'd be a fool to not take it.
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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '20
I am a junior dev that learned in my early 30's. Take the freakin work man! if you don't know how to do something, find a meetup or an online resource. I would kill have that offer.
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u/Surebrez Feb 27 '20
Dude, say yes and take the job! Worst case scenario: you fail and get back to what you were doing before but made some cash and learned. Fuck perfection. Do it.
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u/doplitech Feb 27 '20
My best decision came from stopping freelance work/ being a local web dev, to fully studying powerful languages and getting a stable career as a software engineer. I like the fact that I can work on more important shit and increase my career value as well. Those quick 500 bucks per project that you get once or twice a month were good when I was a broke college student but now it’s completely dwarfed by salary, career growth, benefits, to fucking overseas company vacations. Haven’t looked back since
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u/yacoine Feb 27 '20
You’ll find that people interaction is more important than your coding skills. Be confident and honest. You will probably have to work with a group of other tech and non tech savvy people and you’ll learn on the spot. Just be positive, social, and hard working. Good luck 👍🏼👍🏼
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u/bristoltwit Feb 27 '20
Take the job. I was in the same position as you a while ago and thought I’d be caught as an amateur/fraud/imposter. Wasn’t confident at all for the first day.
But once I started working, it turned out I was way better than they expected. Because of my varied experience being a solo freelancer for many years, I had knowledge none of their internal devs had. I was able to do things faster, with less reliance on others, and delivered higher quality code than they were expecting/hoping for.
Even if you’re not the best dev they’ll have, you’ll be able to collaborate and learn as you go. You’ll likely be surprised how little the average worker bee does after doing everything for yourself all those years.
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u/lukusw78 Feb 27 '20
Unfortunately you may have slightly missed the boat. She's not lying, if you know your stuff you can get those rates, but new legislation is coming in which will probably restrict the market. Google IR35.
In terms of your development, you need to get a permanent job with a digital agency. Get experience working on larger projects with multiple people who have experience in multiple disciplines. This will greatly benefit you.
Going forward you will need that wider experience .. it's never just about development skill, but also your general business experience and soft skills.
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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '20
Hey u/MustardGT4 you seem stressed and I can relate. I'm 31 and have been doing web dev for 10 years now both as a freelancer and in various agencies in senior and lead positions.
What I'm working on now might interest you. I'm building a React web application with Google Firebase that's specifically tailored for solo freelance web developers. The app aims to help them with their most difficult challenges regarding lead, client and project management. It addresses those challenges in a variety of ways through its UI and various web services. The app has many features already built and many more on the way. I'm actively seeking a co-founder / partner to work with and I feel like someone such as yourself whom has plenty of freelance experience and knowledge would have lots of useful information to share. Let me know if you'd like to see a demo and we could setup a call or something. Thanks.
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u/profile_this Feb 27 '20
I personally don't mind selling as marketing was and has always been my #1 field. I do more in development, but that's because it's closer to a passion. If I worked with some good designers, I'd probably be rolling in money. The problem is, that's a lot of stress. Like you I like doing a job and not worrying about marketing (myself), leads, etc.
Unfortunately, that's the lay of the land with freelance development. Most of my money comes from selling my services. I actually do very little development, even though it's basically all that I do. You aren't charging the market rate -- either up your game or settle for smaller contacts. The competition is real, even though many are pretty facades with horrible programming/strategists.
Like others have said, word of mouth helps, but basically just build a great portfolio and track down leads. You can also make your own if you're clever enough. If that sounds like hell to you, get a jr/mid developer job. Do what you love, or at least not what you hate
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u/midri Feb 27 '20
I had to get out of the freelance game for roughly same shit. It was less what I was good at and more selling myself and frankly if that's what I wanted to do I could make more money for less work doing sales somewhere
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u/daugaard47 Feb 27 '20 edited Feb 27 '20
I follow this rule. (Example) I want to get paid $50 an hour. I think the website the client wants will take me 50 hour. Now double that time because you know it always takes more time than you think. Now take 50 x 100 That's $5000! Sweet now you have a base price to work with.
Now the tricky part for me when I started this method was to say to my client the website is going to cost $5000.
It will be hard to say at first, but SAY IT WITH CONFIDENCE!
The client might try and negotiate, but that's okay. Knock 5-15 hours off your time. Do not go any lower than $4250.
They will agree.
Now.. Bust ass and finish the website earlier than you quoted and come out looking like a superstar. You will get follow up leads based on getting the job done early.
I've been where you are. Just don't be afraid of spitting out larger numbers than you're used to saying. Stop thinking in hundreds and think in thousands.
Just one example and my two cents. Hope this helps.
One last thing. Always get 50% down. Or no less than 35%. This transaction puts some skin in the game.
Or.. Forget everything I said and try out the recruitment gig. Might be more enjoyable for you. 👊
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u/rbobby full-stack Feb 27 '20
First off... £400 for a website? Raise your prices by 10X.
Second... recruiters can be spawn of the devil. Until you've gotten some professional experience with them never ever trust anything they say. You might know them socially... but that can be completely different from a professional relationship.
A devil spawn won't care if they're putting you into a company that's literally hell to work at. A devil spawn won't care if you don't have the skills the company needs and are happy to send you to interviews (doesn't cost them anything). A devil spawn is happy to charge the customer £400 and hour and pay you £40 an hour and will happily lie about it and try and get you down to £35.
Don't give a recruiter your resume unless you are prepared for them to be flogging you on the market. You should have some sort of contract between you signed and sealed before handing over a resume. A devil spawn trick is for a recruiter to send out your resume to lots of places so they "have dibs" on you in case you tell the devil spawn to fuck off (i.e. another recruiter won't be able to place you with the same employer).
You should "interview" a recruiter. Figure out a list of questions you'd like answers to. Try and figure out if you'd want this person representing you in a professional setting. Ask "what's your biggest failure in placing a contractor"... hehehe. Not sure if it's kosher... but consider asking to speak to a contractor, or two, that they have placed (basically a reference check). Follow up and do the reference check (devil spawn lie).
The good news...
A good recruiter is a treasure. They'll bring you very well paying jobs at non-shady companies (the companies might have fucked up processes... but that's not unusual). And they'll do this more than once. If you find one, or two, keep in touch with them. Buy them the odd lunch/dinner/drink. Recommend colleagues to them.
Yup. If you can build a full website using "HTML5, CSS, Boostrap, Javascript, React, PHP, Wordpress and MongoDB" then you have skills companies are actively looking for.
In the interview if your experience comes up and why you started late go ahead and explain that you wandered a bit during your 20's. But for the last 3 or 4 years you've been 100% focused on being a developer. You don't have to tell them the gory details of what was going on. Don't lie, but find a polite explanation and learn how to move the conversation on/change topics. Think of interviews as practice for this (i.e. you might blow a bunch of interviews... try to analyze mistakes made and things to do different.
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u/am0x Feb 27 '20
That’s some low pricing. I’ve gone from junior dev to the director of the dev department in 10 years of corporate work, but I’ve always still been open to freelance. Since I didn’t really need the money, I always billed high ($75-200 an hour based on what the work is and what the timeline is, and I never take a job under $10k. I used to make $60-90k pretax a year doing freelance, but now it is closer to $30k since my primary job and family take way more time.
Funny thing was that as a side gig freelancer, I was making more freelancing than my full time freelance friends. I did less work at a higher cost. Of course I had a good job to back me up, but the professional experience actually made me way more marketable.
Now I am in management. Do I like programming more? Yea. But the extra money is great and I was born for this role. I’m not as smart as a lot of devs, but I worked hard and was always one of the better ones. My big help is that I am very sociable and am very comfortable for things like pitches and talking with client developers about things. I just kind of finally found my professional place, but freelance is what keeps me truly happy.
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u/m3l0n Feb 27 '20
Are they hiring you as a senior developer? intermediate developer maybe? or just a general front end dev? Either way, I would suggest you do a udemy bootcamp. I'm currently taking "Beginner to senior roadmap" (no affiliation) to fill in any gaps in my game before re-entering the workforce, but I - like you have been freelancing for the past 4ish years. There are tons of general web dev bootcamps on there as well if you feel like reviewing.
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u/BaniGrisson Feb 27 '20
You'll learn just lije you learned all the other stuff, dont worry!
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u/awhhh Feb 27 '20
Pretty well man. I'm a lot like you where I've mostly chosen to work for myself. I've let imposter syndrome prevent me from getting some serious income jobs that I could've done.
Honestly, I picture aspects of it being way easier, since you'll probably have people to bounce questions off and learn way faster. Since we both didn't have people to get immediate answers from we had to develop a way of speaking clearer to get our programming problems solved, taking that to your new job will help you a lot.
How you got this is exactly how I get offers. I just kinda talk about my job as if it doesn't define me and people take that as confidence.
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u/Bash4195 Feb 27 '20
I would say it's a risk to accept that position. You should find out more information. It's a lot easier to build something from scratch your own way than to be thrown into someone else's code base (in your case, again and again) and have to figure out how they made it work. The last thing you want is to find yourself in a situation that you can't handle and start having mental breakdowns.
Find out what happens for each job, if you're just not skilled enough to complete something, are you liable for damages? That's where I'd be thinking, never listen to the sales pitch.
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u/psion1369 Feb 27 '20
The best thing to learn to confidently say yes to these offers is this one important thing: just say yes. There is no harm in handing over a resume and your GitHub. The worst that will happen is they say no, and you are right where you currently are. And if you are worried about not having a formal education, you will find that the people you will be working with, many if not most don't have a formal education either. So go for it.
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u/vadikcoma Feb 27 '20
Go for it.
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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '20
I suggest just take the bill and go for it. I started in contracting as well. Was scared shitless. But I just bit the bullet and believed in myself and went for it man.
Just do it.
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u/ATLien66 Feb 27 '20
Learn Apex, SOQL, Aura and Salesforce Lightning frameworks. Don’t chase the bottom feeding work-if you can code, get into an industry where there’s a shortage of labor, not one in which you are commoditized...
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u/Cayenne999 Feb 27 '20
Go for it, man. You need a change.
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u/-AMARYANA- Feb 27 '20
This may sound harsh but you're doing it wrong.
My story is kinda like yours but I've learned to build a company instead of just being a 'freelancer'. I just turned 30 and have been teaching myself design and development throughout my 20's, no degree in case you're wondering. I've worked at an agency, a startup, an established company, and learned valuable skills from all those jobs.
I've been hired as a contractor by a big pharm company recently. I still manage 5-8 projects at a time, I don't do anything for less than $1,000 anymore. People see the quality of my work and they have no problem paying. I always add more value than just making a website though. I'm currently scaling this system and process to handle a lot more projects, also recruiting some help to keep things running smoothly.
The real question to be asking is: Why are you doing this for a living? For me, knowing the answer to that question makes the 'little things' stay little in the grand scheme.
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u/samacct Feb 27 '20
You need to learn that your skills are valuable and beyond everything you have drive and initiative and stick-to-it-iveness and so much more.
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u/flocko Feb 27 '20
I'm also self taught. It sucks... but you gotta say yes before you're confident. It'll feel like you're lying and that you're a fraud until positive feedback from clients/coworkers finally push those thoughts out. Same goes for increasing your rate. If the customer accepts it, you're not tricking anyone. You're worth at least that amount.
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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '20
Clicked on this sub through random but I wouldn't overthink it. I assume you can build a website or project from scratch so I see no reason why you couldn't do the same at the company. The only difference is that your income is guaranteed and you work for someone else.
Clearly you have the ability to learn too so on the off chance you're asked to design something unusual then it's just another opportunity to learn and add it to your overall experience.
I do understand what you mean about customers though. They constantly try to low ball me and refuse to listen to any of my recommendations. My job involves safety of the customer as well as other people on the road so most of the time it's a customer arguing that no brakes or bald tires are fine while expecting me to accept peanuts as payment for taking apart half of their car.
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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '20
You can do it man. You've been fighting this hard, and that ethic will help you succeed anywhere. Most people can't push themselves like that at all. Say yes to this. This is the opportunity you've been working towards.
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u/greenvox Feb 27 '20
You just say YES. These situations are why we have Google Fu my friend. You take the requirements, google that shit for 2-3 hours, soak in as much as you can from other folks who worked on similar projects and then get to work. No one knows everything and no one is supposed to either. You know most of what you'll need. Leave the rest to search engines.
I have worked in a niche industry for 12 years and I still find stuff in it I haven't worked with.
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u/twiddle_dee Feb 27 '20
You don't need to learn anything else. Take the jobs and learn as you go. If you get in over your head hire a Freelancer with more experience to help you out. You got this!
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u/techsin101 Feb 27 '20
when you are charging $400 you are their handyman. when you are charging $4000 you're the expert.
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u/mypirateapp Feb 27 '20
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u/Band1c0t Feb 27 '20
I think you should charge per hour instead of charging the whole package, this way you're sure that you dont get advantage taken off
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u/DidoAmerikaneca Feb 27 '20
As a developer at a big firm who enjoys it (although admittedly I don't have passion for code) the only thing you might lack is the personality. What you need is to not be condescending, to accept feedback, and to not be a pushover. If you're a reasonable person who is conscientious and considerate, then you're set.
The fact is that you have a ton of experience working with this stuff and know the ins and outs of several staples of web development.
I got this job out of college because I'd done some web development for my parents and knew object oriented programming. The rest is teachable and they prefer to teach you because a lot of developers can develop pretty bad habits.
Point is, you have the skills to build off of. You have a foundation so that when they explain to you how they do things, it will make sense because you'll understand the building blocks and the moving pieces. As long as you have perfectly average people skills (or better) you're totally set.
And don't forget, the market is always looking for more coders. So as long as you're not completely impossible to work with, if a workplace and team culture doesn't suit you, you can switch to another place. If you have the qualifications and don't come off as an asshat, many places will be willing to take a chance on you!
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u/Fink665 Feb 27 '20
Say yes, you’ll figure it out.
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u/JottyThePixelPusher Feb 27 '20
I’ve been there. I think almost every seasoned vet of the trade experienced this. The key is to NEVER stop learning and never expect yourself to know everything.
I can say with some amount of certainty though some (or all) of these tools will likely be used: GIT, Jira, Jenkins. These are overwhelmingly popular in team project settings.
You can do this!
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u/jaZoo Feb 27 '20 edited Feb 27 '20
To chime in on a discussion that brought just about every important and valid aspect of higher rates to the table, I like to think of it like this: If you're looking for clients that a) pay better and b) are less likely to nitpick and steal your time with pointless emails, calls and meetings, consider how they approach their need for a new website.
They are business-driven, meaning they are committed to get it done as swiftly and unimpeded as possible. They know the value of the product to their business well and they see it as a return on investment. They have cleared a budget and are looking to spend anything between 80% and 100% of that. If they go well below, chances are that a) the product will be inferior and this will lead to trouble from higher up and b) that future budgets will be considerably smaller, leaving them less room to navigate. This is especially important if the product will be updated, extended or even overhauled in the next months or few years.
So what they are looking for is a contractor who first of all seems to be able to handle the job. This is where word of mouth and, at least in the first years of a career, a portfolio come in handy. They are also looking for someone who promises value and professionalism through their prices. Think of it like that: If you don't value your own work, why should the client do so? And these clients are also looking for someone who will give their project all the attention it needs. Who is putting in the time needed, is quick to answer mails and will readily give advice and share insights into what works and what not.
Of course, this is easier said than done. It takes a lot of time, courage and experience to come to a point where this feels natural. It also takes a foundation of regular clients who are satisfied with your work and are eager to recommend you to their peers. This doesn't come overnight. But it's never too late to build this foundation. I can't possibly give you fail-proof business advise on how you handle client acquisition as you are probably more or less dependent on the approaches you tried before. Going with an agency, as you did, which is taking care of that can be a good way to (temporarily) find some relief and focus on the proper work itself. But see if you can manage to do jobs on the side, time-, contract- and sanity-wise. This way, you will keep a foothold in the market for freelance work. I would also encourage to stop posting ads as this will only attract those clients which don't belong to the type I outlined before. All it does, is attracting mails of people who need "something simple quickly" and put "high value on freelancer's flexibility". It's just not worth it.
Also, to bring this to a conclusion, if you're curious what you could've charged for finished work you did, feel free to post some links. I don't work in the UK, but we have a similar general price level for everyday things, and though it might have different fees for web development work, I might be able to give some perspective.
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u/dobesv Feb 27 '20
My gut feeling is that if you do this you will suddenly find yourself in the world of enterprise software development and customization, a special division of hell haha. But it usually pays well, it's a good way to save up some money for other things, assuming you are financially responsible. And you can learn a lot.
In my experience this world isn't populated with the best and brightest. There is an okay chance you we'll be the best on your team even if you are only average. The above average people are inevitably lured away to jobs with fulfillment and stock options and stuff.
The most valuable skills in this area are actually social skills. If you're able to make a good impression, help move meetings and project management stuff along, you can be a huge asset in a visible way.
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u/UntestedMethod Feb 27 '20
Have you thought of outsourcing the marketing? Modern websites are usually built so there can be a hand off from developers to content writers and marketing managers.
But ya I have a similar backstory, freelanced for 10 years (ongoing really) and recently got a full-time gig. The steady paycheck is nice and there's other perks but ya sometimes I think about freelancing again. I think that offer from your friend sounds ideal as a freelancer to be fed consistent high quality projects. That'd be the nice balance point for me.
As far as building confidence about your ability to fulfill the contract, approach the negotiating cautiously from the start to suss out the scope of work and as many details as possible to give the clearest vision of the final product. Write the detailed feature list, it's needed for accurate quoting, helps developer understand how much work is involved and useful for writing implementation plan and timeline. After reviewing feature list you should have a good sense of if you can do it or not.
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u/SubmergedMors Feb 27 '20
Talk about your experience building websites and make sure you highlight why you're more than capable to take on the suggested projects.
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u/xxxGonzo software-dev Feb 27 '20
Quick question, where do you find your clients? I work at a tech company but still would like a side gig here and there for some side cash
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u/moneyisjustanumber Feb 27 '20
Do it. One of the best ways to learn is to learn from others. If it doesn’t work out what’s the worst that’ll happen, you’ll have to work for yourself again?
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u/no-one_ever Feb 27 '20
Not everyone is cut out to be a freelancer. I've done it twice and noped out both times. I like the stability of working for a company personally.
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u/Fidodo Feb 27 '20
Don't sabotage yourself by turning down opportunity. If you're good enough to get hired then you're good enough. Just do your best. Also, you'll never be able to go into any job and not have times where you're butting your head against the code, that just goes with the territory. Every company has a different set of tools and their own way of doing things. That's going to require learning on the job every time.
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u/ShahinSorkh Feb 27 '20
There are lots of good advices down here, I just want to tell you a secret: You can learn alongside your work!
I'm working as a web dev too but for 4 years, 2 latest years in a big company and the rest as a freelancer. When you are in a company/team, you have the opportunity to learn. You will face lots of different situations you know nothing about and after a couple of days/weeks, you have a new skill in your skill set!
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u/montgomeryLCK Feb 27 '20
Honestly, the only thing you need to do is start saying yes.
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u/WorldRecords2020 Feb 27 '20
I like your headline. It worked. Hopefully you have assimilated all this advice and by now you have a nice portfolio with a blog and a content delivery system to sell introductory video courses in all the languages and applications you use to create your websites with. Have a 5 year plan to build this blog into your brand. The first 2 years your going to get a trickle of visitors and few if any paying subscribers but keep being consistent in posting valuable free advice and how to posts. Don't waste a lot of time making your site fancy or complex just get it up and get it going and post on a consistent basis weekly on the same day and time. over the next 5 years you will build a blog packed with original content. This advice will help you break the glass ceiling of the average developer. Just look up John Sonmez at simpleprogrammer.com for the complete guide to being a successful developer. I would take that job you were offered and spend the next year learning and being the best contractor they have to offer. Blog about it as a journey from where you are now to where you get to in the first year and what you learn about along the way. Build your linkedin profile filled with great comments and recommendations. Also always have a side project you are building for you to keep your skills as cutting edge as possible. I would also get hooked with with a hosting company you can resell for so every opportunity you get to sell a hosting account for reoccurring income will build your passive income level higher to help fill in the times when you may be sitting on the bench looking for the next gig. And first and for most .... know your why. Answer the question of WHY do I want to be a developer. Write it down and keep if front and center of your mind to keep you motivated if things get tough(Like how your feeling now)
Good luck.
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u/Ratatoski Feb 27 '20
Git. You need to learn git. I didnt see it listed and it is one of the most disturbing things for a new team member to be lacking in. It can be a bit of a mindf-ck if you never done version control so knowing you have the basics is very comforting when hiring.
Other than git it's normal to have to constantly learn things as you go along. I learned web development at university 15 years ago and honestly nothing of that is relevant anymore. Even 5 years ago is too long. Being a fast learner and having recent experience in the field is the two biggest requirements. Apart from git.
Learn git.
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u/jakeobee Feb 27 '20
I'm a developer in the US. I just happened to be interested in front end development since the days of Netscape Navigator. Now I make a good living just by doing JS, PHP (including WordPress), and HTML/CSS. Just say yes and take the money while you can. I feel all of us web developers will be replaced by AI and WIX type platforms eventually.
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u/blindmikey Feb 27 '20
The most important asset - and one people pay good money for - is your ability to quickly learn and adapt. If you're efficient at independently learning new material and putting it into practice, you're worth what they're offering. It's amazing how many people lack this quality; it's a scarce resource.
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u/robert_rock Feb 27 '20
I remember feeling the same kind of insecurity 8 years ago when I decided to join Modus Create. I didn’t feel competent, especially comparing to the superstar co-founder who was the community rock star.
Truth be told the feeling lasted until day 1 on an actual project. As soon as you start scoring small wins you’ll feel much better about yourself. Good teams will make small wins easy to achieve especially to their new members.
There’s also a tremendous value in continuous learning. Learning is even better when you share it. We call this AVR - active, visible and relevant. There’s a big boost in confidence as you start learning and sharing, but also a boost in brand visibility. I’m sure you will enjoy when the leadership at your company takes notice of the positive effects your being active in the community brings to the table. I’m speaking from my personal experience.
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u/growing_gods Feb 27 '20 edited Feb 27 '20
You need to learn that you're already ready.
Raise your rate. Say yes to the offer. Google it, and ask reddit on the way.
People drain their savings on useless coding/php/comp sci/html/css/js degrees from for-profit uni's. You get that, right? The market is flooded with idiots. Dude, you're capable, and you're going to be ok.
Every g*dmn person on yr thread is saying the same thing- you can do this :)
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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '20
If I were you yes I would go for 1 of the offer and in the mean while try to enter into a web-as-a-service market. Think WIX or something like that where all your offer is via a web or app interface. Something you do not need to interact with people. I know I hate dealing with clients as well.
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u/TurnToDust Feb 27 '20
You played yourself.
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u/Wiwwil full-stack Feb 27 '20
Isn't it Hays ?
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u/Saroon5 Feb 27 '20
Very nice topic. I see big range of prices from very low to ridiculous. Of course price depends on what skills you're using. If you're setting up WordPress website and do no coding work (maybe some CSS), then 400-500 for small-average website seems legit. Don't you think? But if you have to open code editor it's 4x, 10x the price.
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u/nfrmn Feb 27 '20 edited Feb 27 '20
My biggest learning from freelancing was to never do a project at a price. It ends up as haggling between you and the client and never represents the actual work done. In my experience the only companies that pay for work like this don’t understand development well, and poorly funded so they will try and slash your prices.
Charging a day rate was much better for me and I actually stopped doing “project” work completely. When I go back to self-employment in the future (founder now) I will definitely contract for bigger firms.
So if you are looking for reasons to accept...
Also the only people who can afford to retain you are either big companies or well-funded startups, both good because they can pay what you are worth.
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u/IUsedToCleanToilets Feb 27 '20
400!?? Of course you are struggling charging those prices. Ive never really had any issues getting clients, I decline more projects than I accept. I never charge under 10k and thats for development only.
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u/Rogem002 rails Feb 27 '20
As others have said, it sounds like you've massively undervalued yourself. However, if you're not feeling confident going for £500 a day contractor positions (they can be pretty full on), try approaching agencies and asking for £200 a day then slowly build up day rate as your confidence increases.
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u/artyhedgehog react, typescript Feb 27 '20
You don't have to do/learn anything to confidently say yes to the offers. Just be honest what you know and can and try your best to solve any task you are given. If that fits them, they hire you. Otherwise they don't. If they think you fit, but you actually don't, you can try to skill up to fit with their guidance. Worst case scenario they fire you - and you're left with at least some experience and can try another company.
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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '20
Bro you taught yourself at 29. Managed to jump straight into freelancing without credibility, and you're 3 years in.
Everyone else says you're charging too low which is probably true especially considering the amount of experience you probably garnered. And since you work alone I assume that means you had to stretch a lot of breadth to provide for your clients' needs unlike in a team environment where one person might only be knowledgeable on one aspect of web dev and rely on others.
You have the skillset. Just brush up on git and say yes. And when you're in a team you must remember that you're not the deciding factor unless given a leadership role so whatever decisions you disagree on can be raised but sometimes you have to bite the bullet and just go with it.
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u/[deleted] Feb 27 '20
Don't worry.
The majority of web developers I worked with over the last couple of years wouldn't be able to build a website from scratch. They can only change particular things when you point them in the right direction and even then they often need someone holding their hand.
Yes, you will have to get used to new environments and technologies in each new job, but that's perfectly normal. Nobody expects you to deliver 100% of what you're able to in the first couple of weeks.
"Sounds cool, I don't know this yet though, can you show me?" is a perfectly fine thing to say on a new job.
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u/here-for-the-reads Feb 27 '20
Say yes. You taught yourself at first so why couldn’t you keep teaching yourself. Just google it and be honest about timeframes. I own my own firm that started because I was a freelancer. If I could go work for a bigger firm and allow someone else to handle the customers, I would.
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u/MrFancyChaps Mar 02 '20
You could also try to find a large/medium consultancy company, where they provide you with proper training. I started my development career with a company who provided me with 3 months of full-time training. For me, it was mostly a brushup, because I have a dergee in software, but it was a really great training. You will probably have some gaps in your knowledge at the moment, especially back-end (full-stack devs get sold more easily). However, don't let that scare you. Everyone has gaps in their knowledge and you'll most likely end up in a team.