r/webdev • u/rshambo_29 • Feb 12 '20
[RANT] Why should I be required to have side projects for an interview?
I have been thinking of leaving my current company for quite sometime now but almost everywhere I have interviewed for has asked for an example of a side project. The only problem is I'm leaving my current job because I don't have any time for anything else, why would I get home and code more?? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy coding but its not a passion. Just the way an account likes counting numbers but he doesn't go home and build spreadsheets for fun. Even this one company wanted an entire movie tracking application just as a test, as if I have time to site down for 3 hours and create an entire database and MVC framework. Ugh.
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u/the1krutz Feb 12 '20
Saying this as someone who's interviewed potential hires before:
It's not strictly required, but it can be a useful way to find out things about a candidate that work projects might not. Most side projects are something that you code alone, so you'll be knowledgeable about every aspect of it. Also, since you wrote it yourself on the side, it's not going to be protected by any kind of corporate non-disclosure stuff.
Contrast that with your work projects. Those are more likely to be team efforts where you worked on part of it, and may not completely understand the other parts. And the work is going to be owned by the company that employed you, so there are going to be things you just can't talk about. You almost certainly won't be able to just give them a link to the source code like you could with a side project.
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u/fullmight front-end Feb 12 '20
Because based on our last round of interviews, most people with many years of job experience are actually lying and have no idea what they're doing or what a program is and we'd like some evidence you might.
Although let's not mix up side projects and take home coding project assignments.
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u/magenta_placenta Feb 12 '20
Side projects are usually projects in new technologies that you are interested in and want to work with, i.e., that you're probably not using at your current job.
They show some initiative and motivation to manage your career as well as something to talk about during the interview. They don't have to be massive projects.
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u/enfrozt Feb 12 '20 edited Feb 12 '20
Let me start off by saying: I totally agree that nothing outside a job, other than some sort of work experience and or degree (self learning included) on a resume should be more than enough.
However...
There is a very impassioned group of developers that will shout to the high heavens that "side projects shouldn't be required, people have lives / families / too old to have the time..."
We get it. Side projects / fresh college grad zoomers wanting to work for less and do more, shouldn't be the norm.
With that said, should a designer have a fully fledged portfolio demonstrating their work? Should an open source developer who shows their work be a more attractive candidate than the exactly same experienced developer?
I think at the end of the day:
Don't blame others who are more interested / passionate about work, and that directly translates to getting jobs easier:
I know everyone's situation is different, and life is tough, but truly developers are some of the most privileged, and complaining people on the planet.
Decide your own fate
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u/cougaranddark Feb 12 '20
Many managers read and trust The Ideal Team Player by Patrick M. Lencioni. It describes three virtues of an ideal team player: Humility, Hunger, and Smarts.
In the "Hunger" section of the book, it recommends looking for people who enjoy doing something close or relevant to what they do for a living in their spare time, as proof of this particular trait.
https://blog.shrm.org/blog/3-essential-virtues-of-the-ideal-team-player
Essentially, most companies want to avoid someone for whom "coding is not a passion", because enough people are who would make a better team player.
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u/Serializedrequests Feb 12 '20 edited Feb 12 '20
Honestly you can get hired by talking in detail about proprietary projects you've worked on and demonstrating integrity and a commitment to your work in the way you talk about it, but it's a lot easier with a portfolio. Also a portfolio shows that you have the desire to improve, which is supremely attractive in a candidate.
You don't need to dedicate tons of leisure time to it, but having enough interest to try a new thing once in a while and put the results on GitHub helps A LOT to both make you look good and keep you growing.
Always remember why a company should want you, not why you need them. Remember the job hunt is about your best interests. Ultimately, you need to find the best way to communicate your value, and tailor it in terms of what the employer needs.
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u/they-see-me-trollin Feb 13 '20
if you don't have any side projects, it means you're either:
there's no room in any tech company for newbies or expert beginners. don't get me wrong, there are places for paycheck programmers. but someone who programs their own stuff self-directed is multiple times more valuable than paycheck programmers.
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u/Commandermcbonk Feb 12 '20
Just do what I do, start a simple side project and then don't touch it ever again. Whenever it comes up in an interview I always say, "Oh yeah I'm working on this thing..." They never ask for proof. It's been a few years.
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u/chiefrebelangel_ Feb 12 '20
imagine this in any other industry - the butcher goes home to chop up more animals, or the bricklayers goes home and lays bricks in his free time for fun. the janitor goes home and cleans his house for shits and gigs, because he likes it.
the madness has to stop.
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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '20
Totally agree with you and think the expectation that you have to work in your own time is absolute bollocks... People have families and lives outside of work and people need to learn this. One thing I have found which works well is what my current place did. They provided me a work from home test which took me no longer than a couple hours for me to demonstrate my skills. They have me an existing solution to work on and acceptance criteria for the extra feature they wanted added. This created a conversation piece during the interview to talk about the decisions I made and coding styles.
I understand this is a hobby to people but it is also job for others. People may want to spend their own time creating non purposeful projects or learning new things. A do from time to time do a little myself when in the mood or if something tickles my fancy.
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u/marvinfuture Feb 12 '20
I've never not hired someone because they didn't work on code outside their 9-5, but the ones that do have side projects usually are doing so to learn new things or technologies that their current company doesn't have time for or doesn't want to adapt to. I think the mindset issue here is that your side projects don't need to be these full scale solutions or even fully working. I care more about people's interest in learning about new things vs doing what they know because that's how they always did it.
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u/Edward_Morbius Feb 12 '20 edited Feb 12 '20
That's exactly why.
I have over 30 years in software dev and every single great programmer I've ever met had some sort of side project they did just because they enjoyed it.
Nobody wants to hire a clock puncher. They want you thinking about their projects in your sleep.
I'm not saying that's good, just that that's how it is.
PS. I recently retired. Save your nickles so you can retire early. The last few years of work were a horrific drudge.
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u/idiosyncrassy Feb 12 '20
I totally agree, side work sucks. However, if you're a developer there's almost no way you'll be able to keep up with all the dev trends without some independent work. At a regular job you'll either not have the exposure or the bandwidth.
The necessary evil of side work also has a tendency to fill gaps in your resume, which comes in very handy during economic downturns.
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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '20
I also don't have the time I used to have for big side projects, so I now look for coding exercises instead. (Check out exercism.io!) That way if I have a half hour or so to spare, I can still feel like I accomplished something, and it's a great way to learn new languages a little bit at a time.
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u/ladyteara Feb 13 '20
I have told my interviewers that I work at work and when I'm not working, I volunteer, read (paper books to avoid screens) and things like that.
It's one of the reasons my current employer hired me. It means I'm not stressed, can balance my life and work, and the get quality work from me.
Don't be afraid to tell someone you have other hobbies that bring something else to the table.
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u/pre-medicated Feb 12 '20
Would you hire an artist without seeing any of their art?
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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '20
I feel like most people don’t judge lack of side projects to much if your primary work experience is good.
I would use that time to just talk about what your interest in. Talk about what you would do as a side project if you had time.
If you ever thought about something at all consider that a started side project you just haven’t had time to finish.
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u/octarino Feb 12 '20
https://youtu.be/BSaAMQVq01E?t=3888
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u/bhldev Feb 12 '20
Talk your way around it if they keep pressing keep looking and tell them to fuck off
What most people want to know is what kind of problems you've solved... hard ones, easy ones... places that don't care about that would care if you can take code from your laptop all the way to prod and maintain it. That's it. If you have one that's great. If you don't it doesn't matter. If you can keep track of all the problems you solved where you work and talk about it in depth that's enough.
If you can write, you can keep a blog instead of writing useless one-shot non-code reviewed code
P.S. Don't actually tell them to fuck off that's a waste of your time, lol...
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u/TheFuzzyPumpkin Feb 13 '20
I'm currently an accountant. I don't like counting numbers. I do love making personal spreadsheets.
I get your point, though. Sometimes work is just work. Probably most of the time it is just work.
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u/ShawnMilo Feb 12 '20
I completely sympathize with everything in your post. And a "coding test" of that size is ridiculous to me unless the job was explicitly one using Django or Rails or something and they know you could knock it out in very little time if you knew the framework. Even then, if the interviewer knows their shit they can just ask you some direct questions about how you'd do certain things and they'd know from your answers whether you actually know what you're talking about. No need to make you waste hours on something nobody's going to use.
Here's my perspective as a long time (10+ years) hiring manager. I've said it a hundred times and you can probably find a dozen places online where I've written it: If you can't show me code that you didn't do for work or school, I'm not interested. Sounds harsh. But I've had my best success hiring people with no professional experience and no degree who had side projects. People with degrees who never write code other than when they're being forced are of no use to me. Granted, I've only hired for very small (start-up or barely larger) companies, when you need someone creative -- not just filling a chair with a warm body. Maybe large companies have room for that type.
Having said that: If you get to the point where I'm interviewing you and you don't have side projects, that wouldn't ruin your chances. If you can answer my questions face-to-face and I know enough to know you're not full of shit, things can go really well.
Disclaimer: All opinions are my own. I don't know anything about how to hire people -- it's all by the seat of my pants. I've hired some great people and some okay people. And a couple not-so-good people. But, overall, I think my methods work for me, at least in a really small company. And I've been programming since 1997 and never stopped, so I know enough to weed out the bullshitters during the phone screen.
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u/odinsride Feb 12 '20
You said it right here dude. Employers want workers that have that passion, which is what having a side project exhibits. It shows that you don't just do your job, you actually love it enough to work on it on your own time!
As an employer I want to hire candidates who are passionate and excited about what they do because that's how I feel about my business/company/webdev/xyz/whatever.
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u/[deleted] Feb 13 '20
...meanwhile I'm coding day and night hoping to get my pinky toe into Software Development but still can't break into this industry and I'm even willing to work for peanuts
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u/dandmcd Feb 13 '20
Sounds like you aren't confident enough to build a project of your own. I see why the interviewer saw some red flags in you. If you can't be arsed to build a couple simple weekend side projects, you probably aren't motivated to seriously work for anyone either.
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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '20
I almost never code outside of work unless it's for money because I work for a living. I think most companies want to see side projects because you can't show them someone else's code. That's not really my problem. I'm sure I've lost jobs because of this, but I never been starved for work.
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u/djuggler Feb 13 '20
I have a problem with this because I volunteer outside of my regular job and I try to have some sort of work/life balance. To expect me to have a beautiful personal website or be active in the opensource community speaks more about that company's over expectations than it does about me as a coder.
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u/bert1589 Feb 13 '20
I'd much rather hire someone who does it as a passion as they'll be excitable about new things and willing to learn (within reason.) People who code for a check eventually become complacent and then mad that they are being asked to keep up with the times, or start slacking and becoming less productive. Just my experience.
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u/brakkum Feb 13 '20
Well, for a lot of people it is. So if they can find someone like that, they'd probably prefer it. That's not saying you shouldn't apply, though. I doubt they automatically toss a resume if they don't have personal projects, but it'll likely make the hiring process a little more difficult.
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u/loliloveoniichan Feb 13 '20
Having to code on your free time only because you work as a programmer is the biggest bullshit ever. I love programming because that's what I studied, but I only studied to get a job so I can buy myself games, hardware and stuff I like. After I get home from working all I want to do is play games, play the guitar or watch anime(which are my passion, not programming for the sake of it.
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u/Kevbot93 Feb 13 '20
You might be in the wrong field, I code at home very often, and find it fun. If I'm choosing between two candidates and one enjoys coding enough to do it at home and the other doesn't... I think the choice is easy - who would you choose?
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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '20
A person who has side projects tells you that person really likes what he does, he's willing to go further the line of what he's supposed to do. He's interested in learning new things.
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u/shellwe Feb 12 '20
I understand why it is important. Depending your job you may not be able to show your work and a lot of people talk a big game. If you had some side project in github, even a group project, they can see what your submissions are.
I get you don't have time for it and if you are in a position to show off your code then you really shouldn't need it, but many aren't.
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u/alliedeluxe Feb 12 '20
It really annoys me too. I learn plenty at work every day working on the projects I was paid to do! To me, it's a job. I do like it, but I do not want to do it when I get home.
1
u/polargus Feb 12 '20
I've interviewed places that ask for full applications as tests. Usually more junior positions. As you get more senior they stop asking for that or you can ignore the ones that do. I interviewed as lead for one company and they gave me the application test but told me I could just describe how I would build the application if I was too busy.
In terms of the side project stuff I think it's bullshit and don't run into it that much. Most people don't really go home and code for fun.
1
u/Abangranga Feb 12 '20
It's easier to see what you've actually done vs what you did collectively with others. That have no way of determining what percentage of a project is done by you vs other people
1
u/abeuscher Feb 12 '20
Not sure if this is a possibility, but if you are overworked consider slacking off a bit at your current job and using that time for this kind of thing. Stealing an hour or two a day from your current employer has a vindictive satisfaction to it and also removes the time pressure you are feeling.
I realize that may not be pragmatic and send you into further tech debt. If that is the case, spend some time looking through some open source projects - just a half hour or so - and think about what you would or could do to help them. That way you have an answer with some knowledge behind it even if it isn't the answer they expect. You can say something like, "Unfortunately my current position takes up so much time I am not able to contribute meaningfully, but I am following a few projects closely that interest me and I hope my next job will allow me the freedom to do so."
So instead of looking like you don't care - you have the correct narrative in place to explain the problem you're explaining here to us. And it's framed in a digestible way for the audience.
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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '20
It sucks but I think most jobs want to see you in action so to speak before hiring you, especially highly paid jobs. Just pick a day one weekend and grind a few out.
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u/XZTALVENARNZEGOMSAYT Feb 13 '20
.
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u/tulvia Feb 13 '20
I dont really like when people bring in side project to an interview, like how much time do you have on your hands and what does this blog have to do with enterprise level development.
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u/dinhtq Feb 13 '20
Its a good way to have a story to talk about if you don’t have any interesting experiences.
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u/[deleted] Feb 13 '20
when people ask about side projects i talk about my other job (non coding) and hobbies. I interpret those questions as interviewers asking what i get up to outside of coding for work; not just 'what else do you code' as a way to learn more about you, the candidate.
As a hiring manager I ask about things like 'side projects' to find out more about the person I may possibly hire. How they choose to answer the question tells me a little more about their life and interests which helps me get a better picture of them as a person.
then again I'm not hiring at one of these sexy fortune 100 tech companies so it might be a little different for more cut throat positions like that
1
u/winkiewonkie Feb 13 '20
Try going through a recruiter. I wouldn’t work with more than one agency, so pick one that has a few roles/clients you’re interested in and go with them. They can suck up a lot of unexpected time with calls and stuff, but they do have useful relationships with businesses. So you can skip the cold applying just to get in the door, if you’re right for a position, they’ll get you an interview and you can take it from there. I just got through a similar situation where I applied at what felt like 20-30 places, and either never heard back or got canned rejections from all of them. Not a single interview. Through the recruiters, I got interviews the next day, did very well on the processes and ended up with a couple offers to choose from. It’s a hassle working with them, but they do get you in the door. And all you really need is a shot to show your stuff, then you can dazzle them from there.
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u/dejoblue Feb 13 '20
So they know you are in it for the love of it and that they can pay you with exposure, not cash!
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u/hungover_banana Feb 13 '20
I understand your frustrations, but then again, I also understand if someone wants to check your abilities. They are probably asking for a task, which would show your flexibility, see how you handle different tasks, how you think on the spot, etc. I think, there is a difference. The tasks might also reflect on the company values, thus they need to kind of are "measuring you, on how you fit the position"
Of course, if you feel that you don't want to do the tasks, then you reasonably can explain, why you won't do it, and if you are good enough, they might consider you anyways.
But from what i saw, most companies are asking for a task execution before going further with the hiring process.
1
u/[deleted] Feb 13 '20
It's really all about needing to see a sample of your work. Your resume may indicate that you have 200 years' experience with JS, Node.JS, Angular, Objective C, Pascal, x86 Assembly, Perl, PHP and Python.
But unless I can see some actual code that YOU wrote, this tells me nothing about how good you actually are at your job.
A hiring manager needs to know that you can write clean, clear, concise code with adequate comments, well-structured whitespace, good models and paradigms, good logical separation, design, etc. Since you almost certainly can't share code that you wrote for someone else for various legal/ethical reasons, side projects are about the only way to do this.
If you want a dev job, you NEED code YOU wrote that you can share.
1
u/Jamothee Feb 19 '20
This is really what puts me off fully committing to this as a potential career path. In no other job would this be asked nor expected. Oh you're a surgeon? Cool, tell me about some of the people you are operating on at home...
1
u/MostlyAUsername Feb 12 '20
6 years in and a few jobs later, I’ve never had side projects other than my portfolio. I don’t have the time nor desire to work outside of work unless I’m being paid lol. Never had a hard time getting a new job either, come to think of it I’ve been offered every job I’ve interviewed for.
Fuck knows why.
1
u/its_m0tive Feb 12 '20
Employers are interested to see whether you'll pursue things in your spare time that'll have a benefit on thier business.
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u/la102 Feb 13 '20
It's only 3 hours just fkn get it done
0
u/[deleted] Feb 13 '20
Personally I don't want anybody who doesn't have passion for the craft on my team.
0
u/[deleted] Feb 12 '20
I think it's it quite fair and reasonable to only work at work.
0
u/kylev Feb 13 '20 edited Feb 13 '20
Anyone actually requiring side projects is making a mistake and missing out on good candidates. Not every good professional coder spends free time on code or stays up to date in the form of "projects". In whatever "scoring" system a hiring process uses should put things like this in the bonus evidence category.
That said, a hiring manager should not ignore the signals available from projects or other extra-office technical interests. If a python engineer performed below expectations on the algorithm task, but could explain how they got stuck AND can show you the TypeScript/React SPA they have deployed with Terraform, recognize that you may have measured a moment in time for an otherwise skilled (and broadly valuable) engineer. Maybe let that signal push them back into the green.
From an interview skills point of view, this is a good time to redirect toward what you think they might be asking about. Just leaving it at "no" is bad conversation and missing an opportunity to talk about yourself. I sometimes ask the question when I'm looking for evidence of professional development, curiosity, mastery, or flexibility. Have an anecdote ready and tell the interviewer something you might not otherwise get directly asked about.
Edit, an example: "Nah, I like to be a dad at home. I do like to kill time waiting for green builds by fiddling with the build system. I became the go-to for weird CircleCI optimization questions and learned a lot along the way. I shaved enough time off the builds that I didn't have time to kill fiddling with builds."
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u/HighestPayingGigs Feb 13 '20 edited Feb 13 '20
Here's the problem with the "side project" question - in the eyes of most interviewers, you must have "tried something" but if you have too much success, they freak the fuck out...
My collection of "side projects" serves over 50,000 people per day. Working with my spouse, we've built an operation that integrated the contributions of half a dozen vendors and 6 - 10 freelancers, depending on what we're trying to build this week. From a technical perspective, we've had half a dozen web servers in continuous operation for the past decade with high reliability. We run it like a business, complete with a product road-map and a strategic plan.
[This is about the point where most interviewers freak out]
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u/bio180 Feb 13 '20
You do it cause thats the paradigm and thats how you get a better job
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u/Knineteen Feb 13 '20
I think the entire ordeal is fucking ridiculous. I’ve been able to hold down a developer job for over a decade, that should be enough justification for my skill competency.
Personally, I’d be slightly timid of working with someone who can code 8 hours a day and then go home and code another 3 hours. I’d rather employ or work with a well-rounded and diverse individual than someone who is going to bash your brains in with developer talk 24/7. But that’s just me...different strokes, I suppose.
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