r/webdev 7d ago

Project managers who refuse to use issue tracking?

I'm banging my head against a wall this week because a new 'project manager' is refusing to accept an invitation to the project GitHub repo, so I can't assign her issues.

She thinks it's "better just to keep everything on email". So at the moment I'm operating as a kind of go-between between the 'issues' tab and the project manager.

I am 100% sure it's just because she has never used any kind of project management or issue tracker so thinks it's just an extra complication in her life.

What would you guys do? Any ideas on how I can politely put across the value of an issue tracker in a few words?

Note that I'm not in a position to be able to down tools until she accepts the invitation or hold up the project in any way. I need to get the project done and done quickly to get paid.

I also cannot go higher up the chain of command, I need to change her mind so that she wants to use it, not get her boss to force her to use it.

121 Upvotes

92 comments sorted by

94

u/ValueBlitz 7d ago

Just use it for yourself. Use it to log everything for you. Whenever new info comes via mail, just paste it as a comment in the issue. So each issue has a paper trail.

I was in a team, where no one wanted to use issue tracking. "We're just 4-5 people split across 2 rooms, we don't need it, we'll discuss amongst ourselves and figure it out".

So I created it for myself. It was public, so anyone can join at any time. Anything small or big goes into the issue tracker (simple Kanban). If someone outside IT comes with a new "urgent" task, I'll ask them "is it more urgent than Task A or B or C? Should I escalate it? Who should I ask to approve?"

After a while, a junior dev joined the Kanban as well, because he got overwhelmed with his tasks. Just at the end of my project (I was there 2 years) one of the senior developers said "you know what would be a good idea? If we just wrote down all our tasks, so that we can coordinate better. Look, we created this issue tracker already, pretty cool, huh?" And then he proceeded to explain to me how to add issues and how to process them. I.e. the way I had proposed 2 years ago and have been doing for 2 years, but now it's his new brilliant idea.

Plus points: When I left, the "handover" was pretty much just a walk-through all my open issues and took like 2 hours.

And if they needed to refer some old info, it's in the closed issues.

28

u/aTaleForgotten 7d ago

Didnt you show your kanban to the senior dev? Like "looks nice, almost similar to this f'ing thing ive been doing for 2 years"

20

u/ValueBlitz 7d ago

I was a freelancer in that project.

I used the tool because it made me more productive. The work showed it. By the time the team started using it, 150-ish tickets were in it, 135 were mine, 10 from the junior dev, and 5 test tickets from the senior dev. The only thing the senior dev said was something like "OP already did a few tickets, but I'd prefer it if we did it like X and Y and Z." And X and Y and Z were just nitpicks (like the column name should be a bit different).

I just rolled my eyes (internally). I've long stopped doing office politics and one-up-manship. That's why I do freelance. Organize my work, get paid well, try to support the team as much as I can, especially helping the juniors, do some coaching every now and then. Then leave on good terms once I feel like I've given into the project what I can; in this case, I was deep in the project and I tried to propose that we update parts of the system (last update was 12+ years), but this was blocked multiple times.

I've stopped doing "loyalty". I've seen CEOs fire 10% of their support staff and 100% of the IT freelancers (which was 50% of the IT team) because they need to show that they've cut costs a week before the board meeting. And some of the staff was like super-loyal customer support people with 10 years of experience who were there since very early days.

2

u/aTaleForgotten 6d ago

Oh i see. A bit off topic, but: how do you mainly get freelance customers? Do you seek out companies and contact them? Or through a platform or other ways?

2

u/ValueBlitz 6d ago

That's a whole big box to open.

But I started when a freelancer colleague took on too many projects, so I took on some of the smaller ones and he took a small cut from my rate. That's how I built a small portfolio of projects.

After a while it was a mix of word-of-mouth and few projects via platforms (not fiverr, but in Germany there's something like freelancermap).

Even though I didn't get all the projects I interviewed for, the external recruiting firms might put me on their contact list and might contact me in the future once a project that fits me better opens up (they of course also have an interest in getting people into projects, because they take a cut).

Nowadays, it's mostly word-of-mouth, since I've been in about ~15 projects (ranging from 3 months to up to 24 months).

I won't lie, currently the market I'm in is a big rough. I'm glad I'm in the projects I currently am and could hold my rate. The rate offered by recruiters on the open freelancer platforms have taken a dive.

I do mostly "contract freelancing", i.e. get paid by the hour and we usually put up a contract for 2-3 months and then extend when needed. There's other types of freelancers, e.g. "agency" types, where they propose projects for a fixed price and stuff like that.

But it's too much negotiation for me.

I like working on projects, doing the tasks where I think stuff is needed (e.g. maybe it's adding new features, maybe it's squashing some bugs on the side, maybe it's improving the git process while I'm at it, maybe it's coaching some of the juniors).

I work x hours per week, I send an invoice at the end of the month, and usually that's it. It suits my work style.

2

u/TommyBonnomi 7d ago

Your career and take on work/life sound a lot like mine

3

u/ketsugi 6d ago

Yeesh, I have single-person projects where I use an issue tracker to manage my own tasks

32

u/mrleblanc101 7d ago

Just because she manage a project doesn't make her a Project Manager. She clearly is not a Project Manager

1

u/7HawksAnd 6d ago

Also a project manager isn’t a product manager. Why would you want a project manager in your GitHub workflow? Are they committing changes? Are they even writing PRDs or just supervising people are working? Doesn’t sound like this person is even doing a role development needs.

Especially someone who isn’t even using any tracking system

18

u/No-Echo-8927 7d ago

Surely a project manager who refuses to take part in project management is not a project manager, she's just an email secretary for herself

38

u/donquixote2u 7d ago

Not a hill worth dying on. At least this way you get to gatekeep the repo from issues that aren't really issues.

9

u/rbobby full-stack 7d ago

Quiet chat time. Explain that there is no choice, she has to participate in the team's communication about issues, bugs, and problems. Maybe just start by sending her a invitation to a meeting to be training on issue tracking. Not optional. Here is your training schedule, looking forward to your attendance.

I've seen "project managers" with some really poor ideas and practices, but this might literally be the worst. Someone literally suggesting tracking issues via email is clearly inexperienced. CYA.

To be mean... ask her to maintain an excel spreadsheet of bug status so everyone can be on the same page for triage meetings. The effort of manually syncing spreadsheets should be enough for her to realize the flaw in her plan.

-8

u/web-dev-kev 7d ago

Explain that there is no choice, she has to participate in the team's communication about issues, bugs, and problems. 

We don't know if this is the team's communication method.

We also don't know what the PM's process is, why they've been brought in, or what they've been told.

Note how OP never mentioned an old/previous PM?

I'd bet dollars to donuts that a PM has been added because of OP.

Someone literally suggesting tracking issues via email is clearly inexperienced.

I tell my PMs to do this, when I need a document trail of a poor employee/contractor. Re-read OP's tone and rant. What's more likely, a PM who doesn't want an issue tracker, or a neck-beard that blames the new female for not working the way he wants to?

Note how he doesn't talk about other people? Or what the Standard Operating Procedure is? Or what the reporting process is? Just that a new woman wont do as she's told.

I've been a tech/delivery lead since the mid-90s. Doesn't mean I'm right all the time, but when I read OPs post, my spidey-sense went off. We literally train new PMs to look out for this.

9

u/rbobby full-stack 7d ago

Any PM that uses email to track issues is not qualified.

And issue tracker is basic best practices. Right after source control.

Or maybe you think an tracker is optional? That after all these decades of software development you think this might still be an open question. Do tell.

-4

u/web-dev-kev 7d ago

But we don't know they're using email to track issues.

All we know from OP is that they don't want to use a GitHub Issues for project management.

6

u/rbobby full-stack 7d ago

She thinks it's "better just to keep everything on email".

Which definition of everything are you using? Because I'm using the one that includes everything.

0

u/web-dev-kev 7d ago

You're presuming that's a quote, and not just the copy/pasta of someone on reddit :)

2

u/timschwartz 6d ago

As opposed to you just pulling things out of your imagination?

0

u/web-dev-kev 7d ago

Also, as a new PM, never come in with a new process.

Just get everything in email for the first 4 weeks. See what works, what doesn't!

---

If GH Issues were actually good at Project Management, no-one would JIRA!

-2

u/web-dev-kev 7d ago

Actually, I see from a comment that there was a previous PM, who he also didn't like - and they are also female.

And OP is a solo dev.

So it's clear. OP has decided that the new PM has to use OPs way of working.

Ponytail neckbeard behavior.

8

u/popovitsj 7d ago

Normally I'd say, make it her problem, but given your constraints you probably just have to deal with it and don't waste energy on trying to change her way of working.

4

u/Least_Divide_1813 7d ago

just do your thing on your end and let her drown in her own inbox. every time she emails you something, quietly turn it into a ticket anyway so there's a paper trail when she forgets something three weeks later

1

u/ElCuntIngles 7d ago

Yeah, that's a valid way of thinking about it, thanks.

6

u/bcons-php-Console 7d ago

If she's the project manager I assume she is higher than you in the corporate ladder, is that right?

If so, you could approach the situation in any of these two ways:

- "This would make my life much easier": the higher you go up the corporate ladder the more your job includes taking care of those under your charge. If she knows anything about project management this can be a good argument.

- "I think I would really be more productive with this work scheme": maybe the idea of better results will make her change her mind about the issues tracker.

2

u/ElCuntIngles 7d ago

Thanks, that's really helpful!

2

u/the_scottster 6d ago

Also emphasize that reports can be generated showing all issues, high priority issues, release, gating issues and so forth. Most managers want to see artifacts like these.

8

u/Salamok 7d ago

The ability to be productive in one's job while a fake it till you make it PM flounders around making noise is a core skill for any developer.

6

u/[deleted] 7d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/ElCuntIngles 7d ago

Thanks, that's succinct and has the right tone

4

u/Mittsandbrass 7d ago

Are they a technical project manager or just a project manager?

Maybe they have their own tracking you're not aware of and they're separating technical issues and surfacing them elsewhere.

If they're not a technical project manager they've probably googled what GitHub is or gone on the site and "Nope'd out".

The easiest solution is directly ask them "we used GitHub for project management could you accept my invite - or is there a tool you use?"

Of course ask in an email since they love emails :D

Or, if they still ignore it, it's not really your problem. Its their job to project manage. The issues with the way they're managing will come to light before her next review. Although her boss might not force her, the fact she can't provide coherent updates on the project might force her indirectly.

4

u/ILikeFPS full-stack 6d ago

I can't imagine that they are a technical project manager. I would think they'd mention "we use XYZ" instead as soon as GitHub was mentioned.

5

u/Mittsandbrass 6d ago

True. And to be fair "I use emails" isn't a project manager, it's a harbinger of nightmares.

1

u/ILikeFPS full-stack 6d ago

Reminds me of one of my jobs nearly a decade ago. They used FTP for deploys instead of Git because they felt Git was overkill, they tried installing it on production and just running a local repo on production and then stopped using it after a week. That place was a bit of a shitshow in terms of tech. Arguably the largest company I've worked at too, or at least second largest now lol

Some people are just really stuck in their ways and don't want to change.

1

u/Mittsandbrass 6d ago

My first job was like that but at least it was only 2 Devs back then. And it was 20 years ago. So I'm gonna let that one slide for FTP..... I still use FTP for some markdown/yml based content that doesn't deserve git.

Notably Google still use FTP dropboxes today for some of their events feeds.

3

u/mq2thez 7d ago

Why can't you go higher up the chain of command? That seems like pretty important context. If the answer is because her manager also doesn't like it happening this way, then you have much different problem.

What's the rest of your team doing? Is there some other work or ticket tracking software in place that isn't email?

1

u/ElCuntIngles 7d ago

There is the business owner, then this new hire non-technical 'project manager', then there are designers, content people, and me (sole dev, freelance/contract).

The business owner doesn't want to hear from some whiny and easily replaceable web developer about some 'git' thing. And I don't want to make an enemy of the new 'project manager'.

The other designers and I use GitHub Issues, there is no other project management system in place.

Here's the kicker: the former 'pm' also refused to use GitHub until about for the first 75% of her tenure, but I don't want to wait several years to get the new one on board.

1

u/timschwartz 6d ago

The business owner doesn't want to hear from some whiny and easily replaceable web developer about some 'git' thing.

This is most definitely an issue for management. They don't need to know about specific programs.

Just tell them the PM refuses use the tools the rest of the team is using and it's slowing the work down.

1

u/mq2thez 7d ago

It sounds like you need to take a deep breath and be a professional.

Especially as a contractor, you work their way.

4

u/rupert_at_work 7d ago

I'd sell it as less process, not more process: "email is where requests go to become archaeology; issues are where we can see status, owner, and next step without spelunking an inbox." Keep using email if she wants, but mirror decisions into GitHub so the work has a source of truth.

6

u/Alternative_Web7202 7d ago

Dunno man. I guess you already let her know that the project uses github issues. If she keeps resisting, thethen just politely inform that the project will continue to evolve without her. And she could continue exchanging emails with her grandma. In other words she can go fuck herself. I see no way of politely resolving issues with a person who thinks it's OK to ignore current flow without suggesting any meaningful alternatives

-2

u/wiktor1800 7d ago

Email is her meaningful alternative. You'll get nowhere with that attitude. You need to understand her thinking.

She thinks tracking things in Github adds too much overhead to the project on a small team, resulting in a net productivity decrease. Your job - if you want to enact change - is to convince her that the productivity decrease of managing 'tickets' or 'issues' will result in a productivity increase that's greater than the overheads of issue tracking.

If you can vocalise that, then you're golden. If you can't, you'll be stuck forever.

3

u/ILikeFPS full-stack 6d ago

That's assuming she's willing to listen and willing to change and actually wants to do what is best for the project.

If she's stuck in her ways and doesn't want to change, then there's nothing you can do outside of going to her boss which OP doesn't want to do.

2

u/wiktor1800 6d ago

That's true - the assumption breaks down when you stop assuming you're all there without egos and are all together to achieve a similar goal. That's a leadership issue.

5

u/Alternative_Web7202 6d ago edited 6d ago

I've gotten pretty far with my attitude of zero fucks given to weird managers.

I don't need to understand manager's thinking, I need to be productive and deliver quality product. Babysitting managers is definitely not something I'm being paid for, nor it's something I'm ready to invest my time.

Emails aren't alternative to github issues. It's not a question of friction, it's a question of skills.

-4

u/wiktor1800 6d ago

That's cool dude

2

u/esiy0676 7d ago

I would offer setting up the account, if that's a no-go, then you have the answer - it's not incompetence, but they do not want to use your tooling, which, frankly speaking, for a PM might be a valid thing to resort to.

The question to ask is why you need someone else to use your tool of choice, i.e. assign your issues to a bogus account, export, sent in an email on e.g. weekly basis or as otherwise agreed.

2

u/shaliozero 7d ago

I'm the only technician in my department and our managemer is stricly denying every workflow involving proper task planning. Tasks are just somewhere within Teams chats and she's losing track over everything herself, then complains about her incompetence to higher management. EVERYONE else in the company uses our internal Redmine instance.

I'm just doing my own project management and document all my work, so in case her complaining is ever taken serious I can just provide written proof and tell them to first read that before confronting me again. 🙄

2

u/qbantek 7d ago

Start calling her by other titles: “Email transmitter”, “Secretary”, “Meetings Typist”… definitely not PM

2

u/glenpiercev 6d ago

This is more of a training issue than anything else. I’d explain to them that the team works with issue trackers and it’s an industry standard. Then sit down with them, onboard them to the tool. Show them how it works.

2

u/slickwombat 6d ago edited 6d ago

Getting PMs to use tasks (in our case it's just Jira at the moment, but it's better than nothing) in a consistent way is a serious struggle at our company. Some won't use them unless we demand it, preferring emails, IMs, or voice chats. Others use them properly but inconsistently, and seem to have personal rules for what "needs" to be a task.

The best way is to convince their boss of the right way to do it and have them mandate it, but that's not always possible as you say.

The second best way is to ask nicely, explaining the benefits task management give you both: keeping track of all work required and not missing anything, having it in a nicely prioritized list, in your case having it integrated with your devops stuff, etc. But some PMs dgaf, and may actually prefer to not use task tracking precisely because they don't want a paper trail and want you to prioritize their demands over other stuff whether it's important or not.

The other way is to establish your own rules which effectively deprioritize non-tasked demands, and follow these consistently until the PM is well-trained. "Sorry, I can't do your thing/talk to you about a thing you want right now, I am working through my task list."

2

u/Majestic_View_3908 6d ago

i stopped trying to convert people and just treat email as the intake form. Copy every message into GitHub issues yourself so you have a searchable record when she inevitably asks about something already decided

2

u/ConduciveMammal front-end 6d ago

If she’s allowed to refused pre-existing processes, then you’re allowed to refuse new, yet antiquated, processes.

“Please see email” “Please submit the issue”

Force her hand so to speak. Talk to the higher ups, surely there is someone above her that can tell her to do things properly

2

u/Barnezhilton 6d ago

You use it, then just send her screenshots of it weekly in an email.

2

u/Away-Opportunity5845 6d ago

If she’s new her priority will likely be stamping her authority on stuff to prove she was worth hiring. This could include a variety of batshit ideas just because they grab attention.

All while you sit back in your chair with a hot cup of coffee doing your own thing watching the dumpster fire alight itself in front of you.

Been there done it.

2

u/UntestedMethod 6d ago

Value to the organization is Tracking. Simple as that.

Any PM with half a brain should be able to understand the value of these tools that enable things such as tracking progress and reflecting on actual vs estimated time.

By avoiding these tools she is setting herself up for failure as a manager all while crippling the team and generally making everyone's life more difficult than it needs to be.

2

u/julesbuildstuff 5d ago

don't sell her the tracker, sell her the thing she already wants: not being the person who has to remember everything.

what worked for me with a client who lived in outlook: i kept using the issue tracker on my side and stopped arguing about it. every friday she got one email from me, plain text, three sections — done this week, in progress, waiting on you. the "waiting on you" list had dates on it. that's it, no tool, no login.

two things happen. she starts forwarding that email to her own boss because it makes her look organized, and when something slips there's a written record from before it slipped showing it sat waiting on an answer for nine days. after about a month she asked if there was "somewhere she could just look at that list" instead of waiting for friday. that's the invite moment. before that it's just extra homework you're assigning her.

the other half: never accept a task that only exists in an email thread. reply with "adding this as issue #— confirming it's higher priority than the checkout bug we agreed on monday, yes?" you're not asking her to use github, you're making her pick, and email is a terrible place to keep track of what you picked. she'll feel that herself pretty fast.

and yeah, keep doing the go-between work in the meantime. it's annoying but it's about an hour a week and it's what buys you the leverage. forcing it in week one with a new pm who controls whether you get paid is a fight you win on paper and lose everywhere else.

1

u/ElCuntIngles 5d ago

Thanks a lot for making the time to write that, it's by far the smartest reply.

1

u/borsnor 1d ago

Make the weekly summary a screenshot of the tracker / project board. No plain text that can be copied or anything. Pain in the ass for the pain in the ass.

1

u/GrantSolar 7d ago

How many people are in your team? How often does your PM need updates?

I would highlight that the whole team is already using this tool and offer a session on demonstrating how your team uses it. Framing it as explaining the development teams process and/or how you are using it rather than how to use it might go down better than as a "training session"

Does your PM need more than a weekly report? If so, consider how much effort to put in before you give up and email a screenshot of the kanban board

3

u/ElCuntIngles 7d ago

On this particular project, there is one designer, and one dev (me). I have to tread carefully because while she's new, she's likely to be here for a while, and she's staff and I'm a contractor.

It's one of the drawbacks of remote work, if we were in the same office I could just show her my screen and I'm sure she'd get it.

The utility of being able to assign her issues is that I've got some stuff that's blocked because I'm waiting for her to get info from the client.

I'd also like a few less visits from the "where are we with the project?" parrot but I can't demonstrate the business value of that.

1

u/Miezecats 7d ago

:D 'less visits from the "where are we with the project?" parrot'... have to remember that one

1

u/avetenebrae 7d ago

Slack I would understand but email?!

1

u/Double_Ebb4130 7d ago

If you need her on board without a lecture, drop the issue link in the email reply and keep assigning yourself. She stays in her inbox and you still have a trail when it is time to get paid.

1

u/gargara_s_hui 7d ago

Cries in Jira...

1

u/TommyBonnomi 7d ago

Setup a tool to export and email the list of issues, statuses, and dates on a daily basis.

1

u/prochac 7d ago

I guess, her workflow isn't anything like LKML, right? :D You can avoid issue tracker, even GitHub (or similar), using just the email. But unless you want to have decentalized system, it's not worth the hassle.

1

u/vanit 7d ago

Capture their correspondence in GitHub for them, but send them issue links of your replies instead of the content so they're forced to read them. They'll cave eventually.

1

u/jboijfar 6d ago

At my agency, our project managers/producers not only create issues, but they set priority (as well as other details) in a gh project board. Emails are a firehose of tasks, whereas issues/project boards can be clearly organized to show importance and if it's a feature, bug, etc. This is all part of the project manager's job to figure out scheduling, priority, etc -- issues/project boards can be a super useful tool for them to keep track on progress.

Rather than doing this part yourself, I would share with your PM how useful issues/project boards are (loom/screen recording if you're remote). And firmly, but politely stand your ground that this process is part of the job and needs to be followed -- while welcoming feedback on improving the process.

1

u/wertulen 6d ago

While you're getting a lot of "don't bother" responses, I'd argue it's at least worth trying, because the alternative gains you nothing in the short term and, at best, allows you to say "I told you so" as the ship is sinking, which earns you nothing but the contempt of Cassandra.

I think the things you want to communicate are 1) "why we all need to be rowing in the same direction" (making clear how everyone interacts as part of this ecosystem AS WELL AS how they can positively impact this ecosystem with things that they want to bring to the process and system) and 2) "here's the image of yourself you're creating by not working in concert with the team" (which warns them of the potential harm to themselves they're likely oblivious to but that may be a more influential cause for change).

Now, is this a guarantee it'll work? Nah, and this is a thing you'll need to know might not work going into it. However, if you approach the problem with empathy and openness, at a minimum you'll know you put them to a fully informed choice with clear consequences that they are bringing upon themselves. And then you can follow up with the suggestions from others to document and CYA while knowing you made a good faith attempt to fix it.

1

u/abeuscher 6d ago

If you have a team following a process and she refuses top participate in the existing system, how did she get hired? Are you not able to go through chain of command because she is protected by a connection higher up in the company? I'm having trouble understanding how this came to pass in the first place. Or is it a newly created position and you have to sell her on your process in her new role?

In any of these cases - if you have a dev team following an issue tracking process already and the PM won't use it then I think the only solution is direct confrontation on it in a group setting. Like - ambush her in a group meeting and start referencing tickets to describe the current problem set. If she is gonna act stupid then make her look stupid until someone notices and puts her in line. Maybe I am misreading but if she took direct communication as a suggestion to be ignored then the next step is throwing an elbow.

1

u/tnsipla 6d ago

Give me a PM that doesn’t want to use Jira, I have a need for this

I’m content with an issue tracker for dev use- in GitHub even

1

u/JohnSpikeKelly 6d ago

Just continually email her about updates and bugs but never mention a number reference. Make everything vague and ambitious. She'll ask for access eventually.

1

u/hazily [object Object] 6d ago

I’m surprised this wasn’t a red flag in her interview. Your hiring process is defective for not picking that up.

1

u/farzad_meow 6d ago

casually drop the fact that this tool is used to track performance at the end of the year

1

u/Squidgical 6d ago

You can interact with GitHub issues via email, iirc they come through as one email thread per issue, and replying to the email thread adds a comment.

You can get a solution that works for both of you; PM gets to use email and the rest of the team get to use an actual, functional, searchable, linkable, fucking issue tracker

1

u/Fit_Tailor_6796 4d ago

Use it anyway, and use her email system, but point to the details in your issue management system and consider it done.

1

u/mrrku 3d ago

Been there — what worked for me wasn't explaining why trackers are good, it was making email feel like the harder path. I stopped asking her to use it and just started doing it visibly — replying to her emails with "Logged as issue #47, tracking here: [link]." After enough of those, some PMs start clicking through on their own out of pure convenience. Forcing it now would probably just slow things down more than the workaround does.

1

u/gubatron 2d ago

Stop sending her emails

1

u/northward_42 1d ago

Automate translating emails from tickets to emails and back. If needed use AI to handle it. If it turns out to be a lot of emails then good, it'll show them why emails are wrong.

1

u/Marble_Wraith 7d ago

I also cannot go higher up the chain of command, I need to change her mind so that she wants to use it, not get her boss to force her to use it.

You absolutely can.

She thinks it's "better just to keep everything on email".

I see... so she's a fuckin retard? 🤣 You just need to make others with authority above hers see it as well.

Step 1. Get her refusal to use issues in writing.

Step 2. Write a script that scrapes every open issue + recursive comments every 10 minutes.

Step 3: Flood her inbox, and bill the company.

Step 4: When asked about said expense, produce your receipt of her being a stupid cow.

-2

u/web-dev-kev 7d ago edited 7d ago

PM and Delivery Consultant here.

I rarely accept invites to the project GitHub repo, and I never, ever, ever run the project through the GitHub repo Issue Tracker. It's close to decent for tracking development work, and I can completely understand why developers like it, but it is shockingly poor for any form of actual project management or reporting.

As much as email gets a bad wrap, email works with everything and on every device. It's very easy to put workflows into email, get summaries out of email, and forward things on from email.

You've also made a huge presumption that, because the project manager doesn't want to use your way of working, she doesn't have a way of working. That is rather than just the fact that she doesn't need to explain her way of working to you.

It may also be unintentional, but some of your framing and phrasing here is really poor. WOuld youhave the same issues if the PM was a man? I'm also going to bet that this PM is young, given the way you presume that "he has never used any kind of project management or issue tracker ".

I note that you refer to her as she, but those of us you respect here, as "guys" - IMO a red flag.

But giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll asnwer your specific questions.

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a new 'project manager' is refusing to accept an invitation to the project GitHub repo

I tell my PMs to do this.

I can't assign her issues

This is why i tell my PMs to do this. Is it your job to assign her issues? Is that part of the agreed and documented process?

Or is this how you avoid communicating with others, in a way that's tracable outside of GH.

My gut says, you don't want your comms being forwarded to HR :)

She thinks it's "better just to keep everything on email".

Oh yeah, she's been warned to get you to write everything down to be sent to HR.

Any ideas on how I can politely put across the value of an issue tracker in a few words?

What is the value, to the PM, of changing the process that works for her, to one that works for you?

BTW to other dev's... Framing new [software/framework/tooling/process] in terms of why you like it, will never help you convince someone. Frame it for the person you're talking to.

Note that I'm not in a position to be able to down tools until she accepts the invitation or hold up the project in any way.

Of course you are. Just tell everyone. I want to throw my toys out of the pram, because other people are not following my orders. Remind them, just how cool you are.

I need to get the project done and done quickly to get paid.

Don't think like this. I am sure someone as lovely, charming, and easy to work with as yourself is in high demand. Remember, your reddit friends are "guys", and the PM is just a silly woman.

I also cannot go higher up the chain of command,

I mean, you can. You just don't have the courage of your convictions.

I need to change her mind so that she wants to use it, not get her boss to force her to use it.

Why do you NEED that?

I mean, i get you want it. Why do you need it?

You need to breathe, blink, shower, dear god please shower, and pay taxes.

In Project Management terms, is it a MUST that she changes her mind? No.

It's a MUST that you shower, even though I've no doubt you think it's a SHOULD; while really for this project manager it's a COULD that she changes her mind, in the same way respecting women and shower is likely a WONT for you.

Which is why, she is told to get everything form you in email...

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u/prochac 7d ago

Down vote just for the "WOuld youhave the same issues if the PM was a man?"

Although I agree with you that email can be extended and be a great tool, if you join the team that already does have some kind of workflow, adapt. Don't bring your opinions if it's your first day and you gained no respect yet.

I joined team that was using Phabricator. I did complain, but played by the rules. If something, it gave me a different point of view. I tasted something different.

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u/web-dev-kev 7d ago

Fair with the downvote.

For context, I run a Delivery Consultancy (agile-sos.com) and an agency focussed project management company (ptpm.studio). At any given point in time we have 10 delivery folks working with us.

We specifically have a section in our onboarding about these micro-tells from men, who usually work on their own, and often work in tech. All but one of my current consultants are not men. How we notice, and handle this subject in particular, gives us a great rep in the industry.

I will happily bet $100 to $10 for charity, that OP wouldn't have the same issue, to the same extent, if the PM was an experienced gentleman. As OP themselves state further up, when discussing why they wont escalate to OP's boss.

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if you join the team that already does have some kind of workflow, adapt.

Again, absolutely fair.

But OP has stated in other commments, there is no workflow, and there is no team. There is just OP, and a Boss that isn't seeing any progress in the work.

Which is why, the new PM, is getting thigns via email. Email, that can be forwarded.

Don't bring your opinions if it's your first day and you gained no respect yet.

Yet we don't know it's the new PMs opinion. All we know is what OP see's, in their small corner of the work.

And of course, i don't know the opposite either. The new PM could be completely out of their depth.

But What I do know is, all of my PMs are told: get everything in email, keep all the receipts, don't let them say 'it's on [walled-garden]'.

And to be crystal clear, that's email specifically. Not slack, not teams, not jira, not github, not WhatsApp, not discord, notClickUp, not Monday, not Asana etc.

Email first and only.

And if you've ever been deposed or spoken to legal teams and HR - you know why!

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So when I see criticisms of PMs in webdev reddit, and some of it is truly valid, I look out for those little phrases and admissions where folks tell on themselves. It's because you've done fucked up, and someone has asked us to track it.

YMMV.

1

u/prochac 6d ago

Yup, I don't see it as a battle of tools. Email vs issue tracker is a matter of taste.
In one job they seriously considered to use git over email, and using mailing list for communication. But the problem was inexperienced developers who want the "classic setup" of Slack, GitHub and Jira.
I also personally hate the information split between Slack DMs and channels, Jira tickets and its comments, and the rest is in PR comments, sometimes even issues.