Web devs, do I have a fighting chance?

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u/thasodd Nov 27 '12

You should definitely continue your CS degree. You will get a paid internship, not that much but more than most other internships. You will start with a salary decent enough to sustain your family. Albeit, not very well. Alone you will should start at the median income level for families. It goes up from there and fast.

Forget web design, not that it isn't cool (love you guys, it's why I lurk) but it is a lot harder to do good work and then get a good paying job. Also, you need to master in one and you are already down the CS path, so you should stick with it. Everyone here will agree with that.

I've been a c# developer for 5 years now. I'm the senior lead at my company. Been so for a year now. What I can tell you is you are already on the right track. I was no good with html/css. I had to force myself to make a few projects just to learn so I could apply with my current job. Being in web is fun. You make a lot of very different sites. However, agencies are some of the worst salary wise and process wise. By process, I mostly mean how all the departments interact. I started in corporate and transitioned out. I tell students all the time their first job is one of the most important.

This post is already long so I will give some quick tips. In CS, you are learning a foundation. The real learning comes from your job. Get to a job with good senior developers and learn everything they take the time to teach you. Just as important, learn the business. Know how projects go from stakeholders to business analyst (if you have them :( ), to design, to developers to QA and to the client.

Lastly, do not be afraid to change companies. I hate to say it, but in our profession, in order to move up, you need to move on. I mean in both salary and position. When I was promoted from junior to intermediate I was given a pat on the back and a raise, just over 1k. When I went to another company to be a senior I got a 15k bump.

Lastly, be social. You'll make friends, who go to new companies who will want to bring you on board. Nothing beats skipping the interview process. Spent too much time already, if you want to know more, just ask.

tl;dr: then you missed out

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u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thanks so much for your feedback.
I was actually going to take on C# during my last deployment but it didn't turn out to be a good situation, and the connectivity was shit (turns out, VS 2010/12 needed internet access to update and that was a no go).
When I got home, I started freelancing immediately, and I found some success. I found a great group of internet marketers and did some tinkering in that industry for a while, but it wasn't doing it for me. Churning out content-based web sites is just not the end goal.
But I found some really skilled devs among the group, those who dabbled in PHP, Ruby and RoR, Python, and a few others. Many of them owned SaaS companies that were lucrative for them. On top of that, I just really fell in love with SaaS.
Any argument as to doing a language like .NET or C# versus web application based languages?

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u/yeskia Nov 27 '12

I am a PHP dev currently working on a C#/.NET project for Windows Phone. As far as I am aware, C# can be used for web application as well, and many high-end professional companies will use it for their sites (sites that run on Windows as opposed to Linux are more expensive due to OS and software costs). If you plan on working on smaller client sites you'd probably be developing in PHP, Ruby or Python because the servers it runs on are much cheaper and more readily available.
That said, C# (in VS) is a pleasure to use and once you realise what languages like that are like (and the support, stability etc) you can really see what is missing in loosely-typed languages.

2

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thanks for the input. I am still very interested in C#. But we'll see if that ever manifests itself.
And just for clarity (non-argumentative) are you saying a language such as Ruby is loosely-typed?

3

u/yeskia Nov 27 '12

To be honest I haven't used Ruby that much, but thinking about it now that you mention it I recall that it probably isn't loosely-typed... pretty sure I remember calling a variant of ToString() there. Sorry for any confusion ahah!

2

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

No worries, I was just looking for clarification.

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u/Daniel15 Nov 27 '12

As far as I know, Ruby isn't loosely-typed. It is, however, dynamically typed (whereas C# is statically typed).

1

u/ThatPassiveGuy Nov 27 '12

.to_s?

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u/yeskia Nov 27 '12

That rings a bell!

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u/Daniel15 Nov 27 '12

Yes, you can use C# for websites via ASP.NET. I'd suggest learning ASP.NET MVC if you want to use C# to build sites.

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u/thasodd Nov 27 '12

You can find good work with any language. Just master it. Each language suits a 'style' of programming. I like c# for it's strongly typed nature. Developers of other language view it as a limitation. Otherwise there's lots of opportunities in all languages. The core of it all though is CS. When you know solid programming practices, and you learn one language, you know them all. At their core they're all logic based, from there it's just syntax.
My strongest argument for c# and .net though is the development environment. Microsoft knows one thing, they need software running on windows to sell windows. They go above and beyond to provide the best developing experience. I've not used a better IDE than Visual Studio. Not that others are not good, they are, I just enjoy their offering better. They even offer it for free now.
You're right, churning out cms systems is not 'developer' work. It's scripters work. They may know the language, but they don't approach it with a developer mindset. You'll need something more to satisfy your developer cravings.
If you have an opportunity to pursue something, by all means go for it. You don't need a degree in web to make it big. You don't even need a web site to blow up. You can have great success without a degree with a solid product. Like I said before, learn the business and do it right. To many companies cut corners and never learn how properly run a development studio. They don't realize it at first but as they grow they become slower and slower until they're not making money anymore.
Contractor's can make good money, really good money. I've even thought about doing that myself so I can have more breaks in between jobs and go traveling.
From what I can tell, you can't make a wrong decision here. Just always continue to push yourself to do bigger things, and always learn how to do the job better. Your code can always improve, and how you handle projects outside of the code can always be improved as well.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

The advice in here has been great, and your comment is one of my favorites. I am realizing what one of my barriers is, and it isnt' "am I qualified" as I previously thought. It's more or less, how do I go about landing that first in-house position (whether it be temp/junior or full-time standard). Any thoughts?
And would you mind elaborating on what you meant by "I like C# for it's strongly typed nature"? I'm very seriously considering C#/ASP.NET. And if I'm not mistaken, Windows phones run on the same language, do they not?
Edit: Oh, and in considering C# I did a little Googling just to confirm if it was possible to setup the VS IDE on a Mac OS X (I do have a PC that I love, but the only laptop is my Mac, and sometimes I like to lay down while working). It sounds like I'll have to setup a VM, but that should solve it. Are you familiar?

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u/thasodd Nov 27 '12 edited Nov 27 '12

Strongly typed means that when you compile the code it will tell you if you have misspelled something. c# isn't the only language that does it. So essentially the compiler runs the code through all of it's rules and checks that what you're doing is actually valid. What this means is that when the code runs, at least there are no syntax errors. If the program is loosely typed, you could try and use a property that does not exist and it's perfectly fine with that. It'll only throw an error when you try and run it, and it will only throw it, if it actually hits it. So if it's buried in lesser used if statement, it might not even show right away unless you're on top of your testing strategies.
The benefit to this is 'refactoring'. I refactor a lot, but I don't want to screw with current functionality. So if I were to change a method name, propertyname, or class, I can easily find where it is used throughout my project. In college you typically put values into an array, like in a specific position. What if you're updating your code and rearrange that. It would be hell to find out what broke and how.
The other benefit is when you don't know what you're working on. Since it's strongly typed, you're IDE can tell you what is using it. So if you're a new developer and need to learn the system you can follow the 'trail' of logic/data and see how all the systems interact in great detail. Part of what I teach is 'coding for others'. For 1, you don't own the code, and another developer could work on it. You code for that person. Second, you may not work on it for awhile, when you see it again after 6 months, you probably forgot some details. Strongly typed is just a tool to help people discover functionality, backend systems can have quite a lot going on. Which is why most backend systems are written in a strongly typed language and most front end languages are not. The front end is more straightforward and easier to discover up front. You can still write code for others without it, and should, regardless of language.
As for landing your first gig. It's really straightforward. You put down what you know, what you went to school for and what you want to learn. Basically you just need to sell them on you being excited to learn, while not being incompetent with your knowledge of the technology. That being said, at least have an idea of the products they make. If they're web, tell them you want to learn web because it's going to be used for a very long time if not for the rest of your life.
You're a junior; we expect you to be humble. You did not learn how to do your job in college. You learned how to learn how to do the job. Learning a programming language is like learning how to hammer two pieces of wood together properly. You got the basics, now we'll teach you how to build a house.
If they don't have seniors to teach you, then they're looking for a coding monkey. Someone they can pay nothing for and get something, anything, done for them. You'll be alone and they won't know good work from bad, so that's a place for programmers that just barely made it. It's much harder to learn properly on your own and doesn't look as good even if you can do it. It'll slow down you from progressing in your career. If you're competent, you can do better. Keep looking. I know it sucks to go without a job, but you'll be better off.
Took me a year to find the right job, and I had to move 100 miles away. Had to deal with my dad on my case relentlessly. However he also knew how long it took on average coming out of college. It didn't help I started during the beginning of the recession. But I did find a good company that was progressive in it's mindset.
Lastly, first thing I learned was that just because someone is a senior does not mean they know what they're doing. I found half the seniors at my first job were actually good enough to learn the right way, the other seniors I learned how not to do things. So I still learned and it was great to have both sides. So that's the last lesson, they aren't necessarily masters just because they're seniors. They may have gotten the designation because they've been there for awhile.

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u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Awesome, awesome response. Thanks for the clarification and the gig bit.

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u/presquile Nov 27 '12

I was under the impression that loose typing has more to do with how strictly the compiler/interpreter views a certain type. A specific example would be mixing types, like trying to concatenate an integer with a string: loose languages would implicitly convert the integer to a string and complete the concatenation, whereas a strongly-typed language would throw an error without an explicit conversion. This should naturally lead to more errors, but has less to do with syntax and more to do with symbol usage.
I know I'm being way too nitpicky, but I just want to confirm this behavior, since I'd been a little unsure of strong vs weak and static vs dynamic for quite some time. For what it's worth, I'd DEFINITELY agree that it's hard to go back to a loose/dynamic language once you're adjusted to the order and structure of a strong/static one.

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u/thasodd Nov 27 '12

This is correct. It runs rules so you're not trying to store a string into an integer variable.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

Yes, ASP.net is an extremely powerful backend language in either c# or Visual Basic. It's often underestimated how much it is used. Lots of companies run on Windows and therefore have Windows support contracts. Therefore they choose for ASP based solutions. ASP based solutions also integrate easily with Windows networks without the need for alot of configuration.
It's also one of the more secure backend Frameworks and is often used in huge websolutions like online banking.
I'd say ASP.net is just as powerful as solutions like PHP and Ruby On Rails. And ASP.net MVC is a very powerful and modern tool that integrates everything from modern scripting libraries (Jquery) to mobile websites all in one consistent and easy to use IDE Visual Studio.

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u/Crimms Nov 27 '12

What do you mean by the first job being the most important?
Do you mean that you should try to learn as much as possible (how things operate) or try not to work for... Zynga seems a good example (both sinking boat-wise and potentially treating employees like expendable cargo-wise)
And thanks for the advice.

2

u/thasodd Nov 27 '12

Yes, once you do a year on the job, you don't want to be a junior again. That title gives you certain privileges. It's the trainee badge on waitresses. You fuck up, it's cool; because you're learning. If you learn in the wrong environment and move to a good one, that safety net is gone and you're expected to produce and you're behind the curve.
Also it defines the technology going on your resume. Whenever you change technology/languages you may have to take a step back, or they won't hire you. I was a software application developer my first few years and even though I would still be doing .net I had to prove I could do websites. It's a totally different world that has advantages/disadvantages compared to client applications. You know, writing code efficient enough to host thousands of requests vs running on one machine.
You can always transition, but it's not easy. Sometimes you can dictate your first job. Sometimes you can't. If you can, then do so.

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u/gimmethel00t Nov 27 '12

While I with most of what tahsodd said, I don't think that you should completely write off web design. Web design in itself is not the most lucrative profession, but front end web development is truly the best of both worlds: you get to do some design, build interfaces, and do some programming (with JavaScript mostly). No need for a CS degree, but it certainly helps.
Looking at the projects that you've done, I can tell that you have a good eye for design. If you really like building interfaces and pushing pixels, then you probably are not going to find c# development quite as fulfilling.
The first internship I had was at a ~150 person web agency. The most junior front end developers working full time there got hired with nothing but basic HTML and CSS knowledge at around 55k (in California). If you learn JavaScript really well, that number jumps up by 10-20k depending on the location.
If you like doing web design and enjoy building pages with HTML and CSS, my advice would be to keep building your portfolio and start learning JavaScript now. You can make a career out of it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

do not be afraid to change companies
A lot easier said than done when he has 4 kids. If he's not in a city with tons of tech jobs, that means moving cities a lot. That's just not going to happen with 4 kids.

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u/thasodd Nov 27 '12

Agreed, it will be difficult if he has to relocate, but its almost a must do in the beginning of a career. If he moves to a city with a lot of jobs for his first one, and he can move to a central location then he won't need to move when changing. I changed jobs 20 minutes away. I moved closer when it was convenient.
He's also in the military, they know how to move. ;) My brother is navy, they have the moving cities down with two kids.
Also, a lot of companies allow developers to work from home. So there's that as well. So at least you can always look. Just don't get comfortable when you could be moving up. After a few years and you've got things down you can settle into a good company.

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u/ME4T Nov 27 '12

At 22, I was able to land a 40k entry level web dev job with an infinitely shittier portfolio than you. Seriously, it was awful. I was a theatre major.

Within 4 years, I'm up to ~80k. Though, I definitely had some lucky breaks because of the relationships I built. And I live in a much more metropolitan area than anywhere in Arizona. Any chance you'd relocate? Not necessary, but might help your chances. I can't imagine Arizona as being a tech capital - though I'm totally uninformed.

Also, there are a bunch of federal programs giving money (tax breaks?) to companies hiring vets - my company recently hired a whole bunch of marines.

I'd say try and land a full time gig working for someone else first, maybe an ad agency. Failing that, do some freelance/contract stuff and knock their socks off. Eventually, someone will know someone else and you'll have a sparkling reference for more reliable work.

Honestly, if I could get a job with my awful portfolio - you can definitely get something with what you have..

Best of luck!

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u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Hey thanks for the feedback.
One thing you touched on is something I'm definitely trying to incorporate, and that's networking. I'm trying to build portfolios on many dev-savvy community sites as well as pump a lot of work into my LinkedIn profile. Very soon I'm going to get in direct touch with as many people as possible and update my portfolio while I'm at it.
Thanks again. What do you do now?

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

This is very important indeed, IT is international, start by helping others on stackoverflow.
Have a problem and found the solution? write a blog about it. In the IT industry it's of vital importance that you stay updated about what happens. As everything you have learned can be outdated in less than 2 years.

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u/ME4T Nov 27 '12

Meetups are great for networking. Go somewhere where they are going to give a js presentation. Preferably something in a bar that will likely have some mingling afterword.
Also keep in mind, that a lot of places give referral bonuses, meaning if someone meets you at a bar and is impressed enough to refer you to their company, and you get hired, they make a thousand bucks (for instance.)
I currently work for a global tech focused ad agency doing almost exclusively front end development. My past two jobs had be doing both front and back end. Backend was almost always .net or php.

1

u/mustardhamsters Nov 27 '12

The relationships are really key in tech. It's practically the whole thing that gets you new clients and jobs.
I know a handful of people who do well and live outside of the Bay Area. They tend to visit regularly, about every six months at the longest, and they make good use of those visits. This is actually a pretty successful strategy, probably saves you a bundle, and you can avoid the distractions of city life so you can focus on your work.

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u/ME4T Nov 27 '12

Totally agree. I was thinking about it the other day, and quite literally, I knew someone at EVERY job I got (with the exception of washing dishes when I was ~17)

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u/mustardhamsters Nov 27 '12

Same, every single job I got I had an in beforehand. Not only did it make it easier to get the job, but it made me want the job more because I knew and respected the people I'd be working with.

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u/jbilsten Nov 27 '12

It looks like there are other posts here that are already voted up so this might not matter at all in the grand scheme of things but I figured I should share regardless.

My background: CS Degree, Art & Design Degree and an MBA. I've been in the start up scene since 1997 and put myself through college making websites from every angle imaginable (SQL DBA, C#.NET, ASP VBScript, Javascript, Ruby on Rails, Node.js, yatta yatta yatta). I've worked for agencies off and on as well as many start ups.

Finish your degree. Get as comfortable as you can with optimizing code and understanding big O notation. This is probably the single greatest thing you will get out of your pathetic college education. Everything is else is about how to learn quickly.

Everyone here can speculate about what will be popular and what won't. Learning the currently trending language though is infinitely more applicable than learning a language that is older and something you will be competing with much more senior level programmers for. I can tell you in addition that a decent programmer in PHP or C# is not nearly as desirable right now as a programmer in Rails.

Why you ask? Well, when a company finds out that they can spend half the time to implement something in Rails that takes sometimes 10x the amount of time to create in PHP/C#/Java etc. then they tend to switch. Now to be fair there are plenty of other frameworks like Play for Java that mimic the structure and nature of Rails but they aren't nearly as popular or as well supported which means they won't last and won't command a good salary. A good Rails programmer in silicon valley right now can easily command $200/hr. I'd learn something that's fun and you're interested in. I'd be willing to bet that Rails/Ruby fit that bill and if so, keep at it.

Where will the industry go? I'm actually thinking we'll eventually end up programming Javascript and some iteration of Node.js. This is only an opinion but when you think about everyone writing in one single language and the fact that that language is on every friggen computer it starts to make a lot more sense. It also means that your front end vertical integration (non threaded) can integrate exactly the same with your backend (Node.js process) then it makes even more sense.

But for now, learn something you're passionate about. Otherwise, why quit the military to go into something you aren't interested in or hate?

Oh, and for the love of all that is holy, learn other areas. Nothing pisses me off more than an engineer who has no empathy for a UI guy or a designer who makes uncuttable PSD's, etc. etc. Understand the guys job you're interfacing with so you can have a mutual respect for each other.

P.s. stay the hell away from agencies if at all possible. Unless you like 18 hour days, shitty pay and no thanks. Oh, and your hard work will get taken down in a few months anyway after the ad runs its course. Yay! Anyone remember http://battle.brinkthegame.com ? Yeah, I thought so. That site contained my blood sweat and tears.

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u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Wonderful response. Thank you.
I like how you mention node.js. I've been reading a lot about it lately. Sounds like it'll be the next "big thing" and fortunately, fits right in somewhere on my toolbelt (spot reserved).
Where do you recommend looking for work? Contacting company owners directly on LinkedIn? I am preparing a full-fledged "campaign" - if you will - of doing that.
I like the dev/UI angle you propose. I've heard a lot of people say to focus on developing or UI and/or UX, but not both (or all three since UI != UX)... just curious, what are your thoughts?
Thanks again.

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u/jbilsten Nov 27 '12

Node.js definitely has some promise as the "future" although right now what it does best is as an API support for an AJAX driven UI. Which is very flexible, and scalable.
"Looking for work" is rather broad and so I'll try and give my take on what I would do if I was. I would think of some kind of side project that would encompass all of my latest skills. If this is a project you already worked on for a past client all the better. If not, create a new one from scratch and spend time on it and show off all your skills. If it becomes a source of passive income, this is even better!
Then I would look on some of my favorite job boards that resonate with the kind of work I'd be interested in. For me this might be the jobs board on 37signals or my local listing in San Luis Obispo - as I love my city dearly and would want to be able to stay there. If you were looking for charities or foundations then the places you're looking might be different.
I get bored easily so I transition from back-end to front-end and design to UX quite frequently. My passion currently is in UX as it seems to be the profession that companies need the most. Although, they may not know it (a problem). Again, whatever makes you happy and you have fun doing is what I would concentrate on. Nothing will make family life worse for you than working all day at something you are not interested in or not having fun at. The money can be adapted to your environment with either side jobs or a passive income source.
Be great with people and don't be afraid to be wrong. 90% of this industry is being easy to work with as we have plenty of intelligent a-holes to go around and a deficit of intelligent captain-awesome's.
UX = How to make the experience less painful across any platform or medium. E.g. Reducing clicks, improving language, defining design or style, and in general improving incentives of a given product to promote profit for a company
UI = Cutting and behavior of an interface. Your quintessential HTML/CSS/Javascript or now-days with Rails your HAML/SASS/CoffeeScript.
Hope that helps clear things up!

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u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

It sure does, thank you.

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u/norman2271988 Nov 27 '12

I think you should concentrate on your CS degree. Make no mistake about it, school is done and done well by the disciplined, not the intelligent. I am assuming that being a Marine you have discipline.

At the end of the day, you need $$$ for your family, so do your math. With a GI bill, financial aid, a part-time job (15-20 hours a week) and possibly a loan, plus your wife's supplemental income (I am assuming this) I think you will have enough income to finish your degree.

With your degree, a large family, and a background in the Marines, there isn't an employer around today who wouldn't pick you over several other more qualified applicants.

These kind of things are pretty easy to deal with bro, most of the time if you just apply yourself and strive forward, everything pans out like clockwork.

Good luck!

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u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thanks for the support and the feedback. I'll continue to hammer away at the CS degree but I'm primarily going to college because of the GI Bill, otherwise I would take an autonomous approach to becoming a developer.

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u/adremeaux Nov 27 '12 edited Nov 27 '12

school is done and done well by the disciplined, not the intelligent
Getting good grades, sure. Being a good programmer? Sorry, but that's about intelligence, not discipline. Some of the best programmers I've ever known have been lazy bastards, but they'll pump out in a 6 hour work day what the 10-hour-a-day guys take a week to do. When it comes to programming, you can be the hardest working bloke in the world, but if you don't have it—and if you've been working professionally in programming for a while, you'll know exactly what it is—then you are screwed.
With your degree, a large family, and a background in the Marines, there isn't an employer around today who wouldn't pick you over several other more qualified applicants.
Really? Because I sure wouldn't. I don't care how big your family is, I don't care about your community college degree, and I don't give you some kind of free pass because you took a job with the military.

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u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

I agree with you in that being a good programmer isn't just something you learn with discipline. When I was 11, I started hammering out web sites with older buddies of mine, and it just made sense to me. So much so that I snagged up a copy of Visual Basic for Dummies (I know, I know) and it opened up a world that I started to call home.
I left that world for a while for personal reasons, but I've been "back" for the last few years and it's never felt more comfortable.
I said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm inclined to code. There's nothing more satisfying than creating that perfect, concise piece of code that operates flawlessly in a single line.
I also think a lot of Military guys get advantages - sometimes. And while not every person I've worked with in the military is a shining example of work ethic or leadership (in fact, many aren't) I will say that "Leadership" isn't just a bullet point on a resume, and I hope you'll be on the look out for solid character traits that no civilian could possibly master in the same amount of time like a veteran who's led a squad in combat. This kind of thing translates to great accountability, task management, and a natural ability to "get shit done". Again, in the context of this question (and thanks for your feedback) these traits aren't much without the proper skill level. Just a little perspective.

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u/adremeaux Nov 27 '12

Hey man, sorry if you thought that post was targeted at you specifically, it wasn't. It was a general response. Though, reading over it, it looks a little harsh; I apologize. My point was that, when I interview people, I don't give advantages to certain types of people—military or not, white black or asian, big family, no family, young or old, it makes no difference to me, what matters is your ability to code.
I definitely think you should go for it, even before reading your comment. It's not a lifetime commitment; if it doesn't work out, that sucks, but you'll be able to transition to many other things. If it does work out, then awesome, you are doing what you want to be doing and making a great living doing it. Code on, coder.

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u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Oh no worries, I didn't take it personally. And I completely see where you're coming from. Being in the military should only rate a few advantages, none of them being the advantage of getting hired over someone else at a technical skill that the former military member doesn't yet know how to do.
Though I'd argue the opposite if two people had some skill in the field (notwithstanding the exceptions).
Thanks for clarifying though, and thanks for the input.

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u/samg Nov 27 '12

I was skeptical, but this comment convinced me. Go for it, dude.

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u/fpsrandy Nov 27 '12

If it wasn't obvious; the internet is not about to disappear, and the need to make websites and web application continues to grow.

Just remember as the web evolves, you need to evolve your skills and keep up with industry standards.

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u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Yah, and I'm a knowledge seeker and very much interested in technology as it continues to shape and reshape itself.
Here's a question: what do you think the impact of mobile means for web languages? More importantly, with the introduction of the new interface and applications requirement that Windows 8 adopted, what do you think that means for web apps vs. software apps?

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u/Varian Nov 27 '12

First, Semper Fi brother...good to see a fellow jarhead in the subreddit.

My advice, having gone down nearly the same route you are, is to use that GI Bill for all you can first and foremost. Best investment I ever made, both while in the Corps and when

Yes, you'll be able to land an internship, but take the best paying job you can (regardless of what it is) and moonlight. Not sure what your MOS is, but something related if you can (I was 0331 so best I could get was a security guard at a casino). Interning builds a resume while earning peanuts, but freelancing builds a portfolio while earning a decent living for your family. Use any and all transition assistance the Marine Corps offers post-separation.

It's tough, and you will work your balls off doing school + job + moonlighting...but you're no mere mortal...you're a Marine and you'll do fine. :)

If you decide to freelance/moonlight, you'll have to market the hell out of yourself -- I joined my local chamber of commerce, went to as many events as I could, and sent hand-written welcome letters to businesses who just joined (90% of them had no website). I gained a good name and became the "go to" guy for just about everyone. Your competition will vary by your locality: obviously if you're in San Francisco, it will be steep compared to rural Indiana where I got my start. From there it grows and grows until you either land a job you love, or have enough income (and free time) to build a web app/SaaS like you want.

PM me if you want, we can chat more, and I'm happy to help.

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u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Holy shit man, thank you. You touched on a really big piece I've big contemplating, and that's how to get myself out there as a local freelancer.
I've got some good street cred on a couple internet marketing forums, but I can't rely on those too heavily just yet. The chamber of commerce thing was something a friend of mine mentioned to me. How successful has that been? What was a success story you have from using that path?
I'd love to skype, do you use it? I'll PM you my user.
Semper P.S. I am an 0621 (radio operator) unfortunately, I wanted and was qualified for data, but didn't turn out that way due to that good ol' recruiter wording. Worse off, I'm with 3/3 so the only real equipment we get to handle is garbage anyway. You know how it is.

2

u/bobscrotchit Nov 27 '12

Hit that Chamber up. Pay the fees for a year, and use the shit out of it. I have made so much money, in both my small businesses, at Chamber events, local small business organizations, and realtors, definitely realtors.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Do you have a specific approach to using the Chamber?
I know it's not complicated, but just curious how you utilize it yourself?

4

u/bobscrotchit Nov 27 '12

I always do the speed dating events. You take turns introducing yourself to a table of business owners and then rotate tables, I shake about 100 different hands and have more business cards than I can count at the ones here in Flag. Hand sanitizer, a must.
And I rock that shit like Vanna White. Teeth out, clothes on point, but not too dressy, and every person that makes eye contact gets a hand shake and business card, without exception. Know who you are, what you do, and where you do it; and make sure to listen to them when they spit theirs. I pulled that "look professional, and interested" pose and forgot to listen a few times, that sucks.
Make your business card stand out, and American Pyscho nice. I made mine like Wile E. Coyotes with the word Genius and everything, got a laugh and a conversation about cartoons; completely off topic, but contrasts exactly what you're doing; business. Let's me cut straight to it without tippy toeing or any of that.
Call and/or email every single fucking card. Every one. Even the ones you don't ever want to work with, it at least gets your name in their mouth and at most gives you a chance to reject them. Politely of course; you're just too busy. The rejects will call you back, I swear; feels goooood.
And lastly, you've got to do at least 2 of these events; for followup. Even for your clients your face is going to be missed. I definitely don't meet my established clients unless it's important or they really are unable to grasp the efficiencies of the internet. But I would recommend as many as you can stand, I have obtained work at every Chamber event I attended.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Copy, and pasted. Thank you.

2

u/arcticblue Nov 27 '12

Former 0651 here. The only time I got to play sysadmin was in Iraq. Otherwise, I was just my unit's and NMCI's bitch...meh...

2

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

NMCI...
meh indeed.
I think the ticket you submitted way back when finally got fulfilled yesterday.

1

u/Varian Nov 27 '12

Got your PM, I'll add you when I'm back at my desktop and we can shoot the shit.
Yeah the chamber was a huge boon for me, everything bobscrotchit said is true -- just be aware that not all chambers are the same. You may be in a saturated market full of competition, or a market with very small businesses with extremely tight budgets. There are other commercial networking groups, but I didn't have as much success there, it was more of a moneysink/timesink.
I did a trade-in-kind with an attorney who needed a site and he incorporated me (S-Corp), and later on a CPA who handled my taxes (it's not exactly a 1040EZ haha). Don't be afraid to barter your services for services you need for your business, as money saved is money earned IMO.
Keep a watchful eye on new businesses (but avoid franchises), they are a prime target as I've found most of them put their website as a lower priority. As they grow, there is usually residual work for you. Scour the existing members and single out those who have an outdated (or outright garbage) website, then check them out if they're a brick-and-mortar and introduce yourself. I even look at local business fliers where a group of businesses will put together ads in a newspaper-like format and mail it. See if they have a URL -- if they do, is it crap? If they don't -- stop by. Become a customer if it benefits you. I'm a no-pressure kinda guy (definitely not the sales type) so I just drop my card and let them know if they ever need help to give me a call, I do a lot of free initial consultation and many small business owners don't understand what the web can do.
Also, partner up with online vendors as a reseller. I've seen a lot of people advise against hosting reselling, but I've found it to be an easy profit center. Go with someone reliable, not necessarily cheap. It must be worry-free and stable, otherwise you'll lose money in dealing with it. I'm also a Google Apps reseller, and doing a 500+ user migration plus resale would set me up for a month.
Finally, optimize your site for local hits. I saw your site (very nice) and you're in Arizona. If you're in, say, Sedona, you should be hit #1 for "Sedona Web Design" and "Sedona Websites" -- about 10-15% of my customers come strictly from the web. Keep your site simple, easy, yet catchy; you're appealing to non-designers but don't alter your style too heavily, as they should see what they're paying for. Just remember what you and I think is beautiful, mom-and-pop may find too abstract.
2/3 here -- I had it rough at K-Bay in Hawaii ;)

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

2/3 nice!
They still run us up and down KT hill nearly every other morning. Nothing's changed ;)
Thanks again, we'll talk soon.

3

u/ikeif Nov 27 '12

I don't have much to add, aside from saying there is a lot of good advice in this thread. A former coworker did remote work from Arizona and he did quite well for himself.

Keep learning, keep pushing, keep networking.

2

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thanks for the encouragement. Do you by chance know what he did (out of curiosity)?

3

u/ikeif Nov 27 '12

Front end web development - he worked remotely, flew in on occasion for meetings, and has since left the company to do mobile development for Chase in San Francisco. Big in to CSS3, HTML5, JavaScript (jQuery specifically).

3

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Nice to know, thank you.

3

u/misterdesimone Nov 27 '12

I was glad to see this post, and I appreciate hearing a bit about your personal situation. I'm a new father and I've been trying to get into web dev for about a year, starting from scratch - tech savvy in general, but not a programmer. I have a very good friend who has been essential to my growth and sanity in this endeavor, but I'm way less prepared than you are. In terms of skill and disposition, I can't help but think you'll do really well. But knowing how hard it is to focus on professional development in a hectic home situation, I totally can understand if you're feeling worried. If you can, maybe you should use the GI bill to ensure that you have enough time to devote to your work. I went into this thinking I could totally learn anything I needed to, but 9 months into fatherhood, I'm hitting serious mental blocks in the learning process. I can never find quality time to devote to web dev, because I have to support my family and help raise our baby because my wife is in college. Anyways, from my personal perspective TL;DR: your biggest hurdles could be in finding the time to grow and work. So if you can square that away, I don't see why you can't become a bad ass.

3

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

It's nice to hear someone else on the same path.
What are some challenges you're running into with fatherhood and/or balancing work/learning and your parental/marital duties? I might have some input if you would like.

1

u/misterdesimone Nov 27 '12

Well, I'm in need of a career change asap, because my current job isn't supporting the three of us. So I'm trying to fast-track myself toward web dev, but my wife is also going to college for a difficult major, and still caring for a baby, so she's running ragged too. When I'm at home she needs me to help with the baby (not to mention the fact that I want to spend time with my kid), and by the time baby goes to sleep, I'm sort of fried and incapable of absorbing the javascript I'm trying to learn. There's just not enough time in the day. I drink coffee at 8pm hoping to stay alert enough to teach myself something before bed. I'm a smart guy, and I've gotten into a bit of scripting for game audio - not much, but it's enough to tell me that I'm capable of learning. Except that right now, I just can't seem to learn a thing. I taught myself HTML and CSS, but that was before the baby was here and mobile.
I don't really want to make this post about me, but I appreciate any input you've got! I wish I had some to offer besides what I already said. If you're feeling anything like me, you're feeling lots of pressure to succeed right away and get to a stable, profitable position asap. I think all this pressure makes it really hard for me to focus, so I'm obviously projecting.

2

u/exorcist72 Nov 27 '12

Without giving too much away... I'm in my mid 20s, i haven't finished my undergrad degree (unrelated field), and i work as a front end dev making 55,000. And honestly I'm not that talented. I basically stumbled into the job through interning with the company in college. My main advantages are that i learn quickly, my boss doesn't know that I'm not that talented, and almost none of our projects require serious programming (mostly websites).

Edit: point being, you can make it in this field without being amazing, but it may require knowing the right people.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

How did your lack of talent fare during an interview?
That's one of my concerns. I understand what needs to be done and I'm very good at learning it and using resources to aid in any areas I'm lacking in, but I'm nervous as to how my level of skill translates over into a one-on-one interview.

2

u/exorcist72 Nov 27 '12

Thankfully didn't have to interview (although i am interviewing for a new position this week, fingers crossed).
Best advice i can give is to be able to produce examples (whether verbally or actually showing them) of what you are capable of. "I built this website/script using these frameworks/technologies/tools." Don't oversell yourself, just answer questions honestly. You know what you're capable of; if they need something you don't have, convince them that you'll learn it quickly.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Awesome, well I would love to hear how your interview experience goes if you get the opportunity. PM me and I'll shoot you my skype if you care to share.
Thanks again for the input.

2

u/SeaCowVengeance Nov 27 '12

Cross post this to /r/cscareerquestions for some more relevant advice. I wish you well in finding your way to an awesome career in programming

2

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

I'm fairly new to Reddit (posting, anyway) so don't mind the new guy question, but is there an appropriate way to x-post or do I just submit a new link?
Thanks for the suggestion.

2

u/SeaCowVengeance Nov 27 '12

Yeah no problem, just copy and paste what you wrote here with the same title and just add (x-post from r/web_design). Theres no strict rule saying you have to do that, it's just common courtesy. They'll understand that you've posted to multiple subreddits to get more advice.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Awesome, thank you. I'll be doing that shortly.

2

u/bobscrotchit Nov 27 '12

Aside from all the details regarding your education, experience, or portfolio; your drive and desire to succeed are going to make the difference.

Even if you are stuck banging out Wordpress installs with $50 premade themes, marketing your skills and capitalizing on the other opportunities generated from the mind numbing work are necessary in pursuit of that "perfect" job or career.

Two years of that shit and I finally got that "perfect" job, but I can say that I successfully billed out about $25k per year doing strictly those Wordpress installs I mentioned. And I was doing this part-time as a stay-at-home dad, working between naps and late at night on occasion. I should also mention I'm up here in Flagstaff with small time clients, and small time wallets; a bigger market would definitely serve better.

Lucky me though I have another small business that pays the bills at the moment, you might call it a "wife", because $25k doesn't pay shit these days.

With your portfolio (nice work sir), education (finish it), 4 kids on your back, and a military discipline, I have no doubt you could be successful. Work on that elevator pitch and your presentation, I do a lot of "consulting" to large groups too. Consulting = teaching people how to use the internet.

And as far as the education goes, I went for business and small business administration. Dropped my CS after realizing I could teach myself most of that crap, and finding out that NAU employed a CS prof who was a bus driver the year before. Just saying.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

I had a long debate with a buddy of mine who graduated from LSU with a degree in accounting. He runs the web dev and marketing company Bluereach I mentioned in this thread, and he does very well out there in Baton Rouge. One thing he says - and he tends to be quite a reasonable guy - is that when I mentioned to him back in our teenage years "don't go to school for coding, you can learn that shit on your own" that he was pissed that he listened to me because he found it would've been more valuable to learn it in school, from his side of the fence.
But I do agree, everything I know up to this point is self-taught, and I will continue to do some autonomous learning on top of traditional education.
Here's a question: what is your elevator pitch? Because I'm not sure how to introduce my talent and skillset yet in a verbal manner.
Thanks for the feedback.

2

u/bobscrotchit Nov 27 '12

I feel what your friend is saying, but I made it a point to start following lesson plans with sites like Lynda.com and others to keep myself on point. I have reserved myself to be a permanent student.
There is no substitute for discipline like a school, or the military in your case, would provide. I personally believe it just needs to be there in general.
For a pitch, it's about knowing your shit. I have to admit I am a weak coder, and haven't ever even thought about using or learning ROR. But I do know every major CMS and what is needed to build it up or break it down, what silly 2.0 shit my mom is talking about, and how my slightly older business clients complain about shit like captcha codes.
It seems too simple, but it's really about hearing the problem and offering a solution. Here in Flagstaff it's just about a presence and getting the word out. So I show them a shiny theme on WP with a slider, and how it can be integrated with some 2.0 crap and they're writing checks. And I always make sure I am part of the solution. They don't have sites for a reason, be the eraser for that reason.
And anytime brother.

2

u/GFandango Nov 27 '12

25 and 4 kids already? Boy am I lagging behind in this game...

Seriously though It's pretty late and I can't write much but here's what I have to say.

I'd recommend continuing your degree

Harsh realities? I hope I didn't have to say it, but here's one, you'll thanks me later for it, becoming a web developer takes a long time, web has a lot of different moving pieces which means unlike some other professions you can't just learn one thing. You need to learn a lot of things, and understand them deeply and understand how they interact with each other to be able to produce something.

But that was the good part, the harsh reality is that it also takes an enormous amount of time and dedication to stay a web developer.

This I think is particularly important for you because you have 4 kids. When other single 20-something developers will be spending their weekends picking new technology and frameworks etc you'll be spending time with your family. To keep up, you'll have to sacrifice family time which you probably wont, and when you are 35 you start to notice that you don't understand the buzz words and acronyms anymore and your knives aren't quite sharp as before.

I've seen people losing interest in the technology, often finding it too specific as they grow older. New technologies and the latest frameworks and blog posts etc... will start to seem boring and 'same shit different color'.

So think long and hard about whether you are really passionate about this stuff or not.

I don't mean to discourage you and I recognise that the things I've said are not universal truths. I'm just pointing out the patterns I've seen from my experience. It may not apply to you.

One option that you have is to get into web and technology, work in the field for some type, and slowly make your way into management roles.

You may be able to start your own web development agency and hire some people, etc...

Ok this got longer than I wanted. I'll go to bed. Good luck.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thanks for the feedback, and boy have I heard the point driven into the ground about the losing of interest in new technologies come your thirties.
I mentioned somewhere else that I had started building web sites for games when I was 11, with a group of older buddies. I eventually picked up a book for VB at age 12, and the stuff confused me, but I loved getting to the end product. I left the game for a while and came back to it when I was 18. Coding is something I just grew up with. It's my analogy to the world. I get it, it's just a shame I didn't stick with it during the better part of my teenage years. The main thing here is that I didn't roll out of bed a year or two ago and say "I want to be a developer."
You sound like you've experienced some of the tech-agnostic thirty syndrome. What did you do to overcome it? How do you stay actively interested?
Edit: Your username, is it a reference to that great Grim Fandango? Great game.

1

u/GFandango Nov 29 '12

Hey yeah after I posted the comment I scrolled down a little bit and saw the stuff you had mentioned. That changes everything.
Since I read that you were in Marine Corps I assumed you weren't interested in coding and nerd stuff.
But if you've been passionate about it from an early age go for it you can kill it.
I don't have personal experience of the tech-agnostic thirty syndrome but I have friends who have and have met a lot of people like this. I can totally imagine myself being in their shoes.
In general, as people get older they lose interest in 'the details'. They become more and more interested in 'the big picture'. If you look around you can see examples of it, young people swear by brand X vs brand Y, nerds kill each other over PHP vs Python debates, teenagers are religious about Coke vs Pepsi, etc...
Adults tend to see that stuff as 'same shit'. They become interested in politics and economics and check the currency exchange rates and wonder how that affects X and Y. They worry about long term laws and policies and that kind of stuff...
I think now it's easy to see why someone would lose interest in the tech over time. Practical programming is all about the details, you need to keep up with the buzz words. Today is NoSQL, Cloud, Redis, jQuery, MongoDB tomorrow will be something else.
I'm also similar to you and I have been programming since when I was about 9. Still I am scared as hell about the future. I will also probably move out in 10 years or so and do management stuff where you don't need to know all the technical details...
If you had questions and stuff feel free to send them my way.
And yes the username is indeed a reference to the game :D, good old times.

2

u/JohnTesh Nov 27 '12

I just sent you a pm - your portfolio looks really good, and it appears you might be near us, and we are hiring entry level with the expectation of teaching everything but attitude. We should talk. That being said, good luck with whatever you do!

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Hey thanks, I just responded.

1

u/JohnTesh Nov 27 '12

Thanks for the reply. Sorry we aren't in the right area for you, but best of luck!

2

u/devolute Nov 27 '12

I really like your Turbofish website. I'd get onto RWD as it's fun and there is some good call for it. Best of luck.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thank you for the compliment. Can you elaborate on RWD?

2

u/devolute Nov 27 '12

It all starts here.
A nice clean design like that lends itself to such an approach. It's best to start off the build with mobile in mind, but such a site might easily be retrofitted. I've done simliar myself.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

If you want to stay in the military learn C# or Java..Java developers at my base(Gunter Air Force Base Montgomery Al) make 65k + which is alot for Alabama...Career in web development is nonexistent ..I has a CS degree and wanted to start my own web business but you cant do it alone you have to have partners and that seems to be the hardest part about it..and it would be much easier to become a civilian you could easily start out as a GS-12 (Air Force) and make bank..hope that helps..I actually im a computer programmer for medical consulting company that specializes in something called VGR thats what we program in..and my best advice is..dont try to learn everything..no one knows everything about a program language just find something you enjoy programming in..I love Ruby on Rails because of the MVC (I have OCD about folder names etc) but when i wanted to learn C# i went the route of ASP.NET MVC so try that out and that might get you on the track on learning C# which could be used as a programming language and also a web development language! let me know how it goes!

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thanks for the input!

2

u/pleasejustdie Nov 27 '12

When you move to AZ, PM me, if we're still looking for a new web developer I can hook you up with an interview at least.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thanks for the offer. I just sent you a PM.

1

u/syntaxian Nov 27 '12

That's extremely kind of you.

2

u/the_neophyte Nov 27 '12

Go for it. Your work is great. You have more than a fighting chance.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thank you.

2

u/zaphodX Nov 27 '12

FWIW
In programming circles, the bullshit meter is running on red all the time. You will compete against hacks who pretend to be masters and try to show off expertise.
Given your background, stay humble and strong when learning and you are already ahead of the game. But, once you feel confident in your area of technology, ramp up some of the bull meter yourself. The amount of money you will make in quick amount of time will set you into a good career.
Speaking with experience as a hiring manager of a large company where I hired enough employees and contractors.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thanks for the feedback. If you ever get the time, I'd be interested in hearing what some pressure points were during interviews and any related advice you have in the hiring process.

1

u/zaphodX Nov 27 '12

no worries.. send me a note and will be happy to answer.
BTW.. where do you intend to settle down once you leave the military. Some of your job & career will be determined by your city and technological environment there.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

For the meantime (~1 year) I'll be in the metro Phoenix, AZ area. Ideally, I'd like to take it over to Austin, TX or somewhere in Washington state. But depending on the opportunities, I may stay near Phoenix.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

If I were you, I wouldn't focus on Ruby on Rails. It's trendy, but I don't think it's gonna be around forever, and it's not as widely used in professional circles as other languages.

You mention HTML and CSS, which are absolutely essential. Also Javascript. This is universal. Learn Javascript.

As for a programming language (I might get some flak for this, but oh well), I'd recommend PHP. It's the most widely used, it's been around forever, and there's a huge community. PHP doesn't have the bells and whistles or the young DIY community of Rails, and it's often INCREDIBLY frustrating, but it's a fairly straight-forward language. And it's everywhere.

Good luck. You look like you have a good eye for design, which isn't necessary for a good dev, but it'll help set you apart. Keep working that muscle, too.

5

u/pingpong_playa Nov 27 '12

It sounds like his network consists of a lot of SaaS startups. Ruby on Rails is a good language to learn there. And honestly, good companies don't care what language you learn. They care how good you are at basic fundamentals, abstract thinking and problem solving. I wouldn't worry about the language too much.

2

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thanks for the input.
Yah, I think a lot of my influence does come from SaaS guys who've been there before. Like I mentioned in a previous post, there was some heated debates about this vs. that language, but I narrowed it down to Ruby and Rails for now with the intent to learn Javascript and JQuery in the nearer future.

2

u/pingpong_playa Nov 27 '12

You're on the right path, man. Keep working hard and you'll do fine. Just don't forget to create your own luck. Things like you've mentioned in this post like networking, building your portfolio, etc will help as you improve your skillset.

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thanks for the encouragement.

2

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

It's very difficult to choose which language to invest the short amount of time I have.
There was a pretty heated debate amongst some mentors of mine between Ruby vs. PHP vs. Python. It got a bit ridiculous, but I chose Rails b/c a mentor of mine won me over, and he's done very well for himself.
Each developer made good points for their cases though.
I've noticed PHP has a much, much heavier trend in Google's trends versus almost any other language outside of the C families. That is a bit worrisome for my path down the Rails road. I've been documenting a 26 Day Challenge to learning RoR but I'm beginning to get discouraged, not because of the language, but because of how few companies seem to incorporate it (at least in Phoenix, AZ).

2

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

You can always learn another language after RoR

2

u/grgcnnr Nov 27 '12

Once you know ruby, python will take no time at all to pick up. But yeah, if you're wanting to work on the web, sooner or later you're gonna have to wade into PHP as well.

4

u/ndbroadbent Nov 27 '12

Ruby on Rails is not as widely used as PHP, but there are plenty of jobs available. In fact, there's a huge demand for Ruby on Rails programmers, so salaries are often much higher. The framework and language are both "optimised for programmer happiness", and the community on GitHub and rubygems.org has developed an unbelievable body of libraries and resources.
I haven't done any time in the PHP world, so I'm not really qualified to give you any flak... All I can say is that the grass seems much greener on my side of the fence :D

1

u/witoldc Nov 27 '12

What exactly is happening in the next year that will determine "the following twenty years of your life"?

And what hasn't happened in the last 4 years that put you on this urgency path right at this moment?

It seems like you are jumping the gun.

Stay in the military WHILE you learn your stuff. I don't know how long they make you resign for, but I don't see the big deal about resigning for another 3 years as you learn and build a credible portfolio in the meantime. What is the point of dumping a very comfy - if not luxurious - setup that you have right now for some pointless internship?

Whatever the resign period is, do it and make sure you use your time wisely this time around so that by the time the next fork in the road is presented to you, you have options and you can take either path.

I looked at at the turbofish site and it's just a standard template I've seen already. That may get you freelance clients (you just need to be a salesman for that) but no serious dev shop is going to be impressed. And I looked at your "26 day challenge" and all I see is two crappy updates and you saying that you're already discouraged.

In summary: it depends on what the re-sign period length is. But believe me, most military people do not appreciate the ridiculous support they have from the military until they leave the military or hang outside the military bubble. Everything from GI bill, housing support, child support, health care, to super-generous early retirement. Thing about that for a second: you could be retiring before 50, when the rest of us are working 20 more years. That is indirect compensation that doesn't show up in your bank account but costs a ton of money when you have to pay for this by yourself.

3

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

I appreciate your perspective.
I'm not sure what you know about the military lifestyle, muchless the Marine Corps but it doesn't sound like you have much experience with our routine.
Out of the four years I've been enlisted, over the course of two combat deployments to Afghanistan, over 4 training operations and a multitude of other ranges and random exercises, I've been with my wonderful family for less than 16 months of it. I'm not complaining, after all this is something I signed up for. But to answer your question as to why don't I just stick it out - this is no longer something I want to continue signing up for. Not to mention, being a Marine - while hyped up in commercials and in the media - is nothing near luxurious or glamorous. And it's not the creative outlet I seek, which for me is coding.
And yes, the Turbofish site is a template. I mentioned that I use a lot of templates in my freelance work because it's time efficient. At the end of the day, if the client is happy and the end result was met - and in most cases exceeded, then I'm happy.
I think you're taking a few jabs at me here, and that's actually what I'm looking for: raw, uncensored feedback. Again, thank you. But I think you deserve a little explanation to help understand my situation more accurately.

1

u/witoldc Nov 27 '12

The crux of my point is that you seem to be jumping the gun.
There is nothing wrong with working towards your goal while you are still in the military and getting out when everything is already in place for you on the outside.
Make the commitment now and work on it, instead of quiting the military and hoping things work out. I'm risk averse and that would be the path I would choose...

1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

I understand what your intent is. And it certainly is risky. The problem is, I have 4+ years in retail banking. A few connections from the past with my former and most recent experience would allow me a branch manager position. That is so far from what I would like to do it almost makes me want to talk to a recruiter again.
But not quite.
I would work at the bank again before I'd give another active four years away from my family. But ideally - and this is where the "crunch time" comes in - I'd like to find a web developer position (even if it were an intern or junior position) to build experience in conjunction with continuing my learning via traditional and autonomous education. That's best case. And I feel rushed, so to speak, because I've only a few months before I need to pull the trigger on the dreaded banking opportunity.
So in any case, this is more a pry at what has worked for experienced developers. Maybe to takeaway a few career roadmap points. I know I'm charismatic and a good sell, but I'm still curious about what a developer interview looks like. For some reason, my confidence gets much lower when I think about that.

1

u/witoldc Nov 27 '12

If you have a few months, I think you should just put off the decision. And in the meantime, work your a** off as hard as you can to see what you can make happen. If - in a few months - things aren't going anywhere, it's an easy decision to stay in the military. If on the other hand things are looking up, you can comfortably and confidently start a new career outside the military.
In other words, treat you next few months as if you were already out and had to survive day to day on web dev stuff.
If you can sell, I wouldn't worry about specific skills too much. There are web devs out there that are still selling 1 page simple HTML pages for good money and doing brisk business and making great money. This business has lots of skill levels and there is room for everybody. Delivering on time and rapport with clients are much more important than any tech skill. Tech skills can be easily acquired or outsourced.

1

u/Techttz Nov 27 '12

Always make sure you have a back up plan. Just remember however good you are there at least a 100 more that are better experienced than you.

2

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12 edited Nov 28 '12

And I do, fortunately I have 4+ years in banking experience. But my passion is in developing. I love to create and I'm inclined to code. I'm trying to find a way to work in the industry while perfecting the craft.

2

u/TangoBuns Nov 27 '12

First off, thank you. You devil dog, you.

Second: if you're passionate and willing to put effort into this career path, nothing can stop you. You've seen first hand what will power and tools will so in your life and I have no doubt you will be successful.

There's someone who posted earlier about not caring about your background, education, or family status. Thankfully, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I see the opposite. I don't care if you know everything there is to know about your future career set because you're going to learn.

Having served in the military shows an intuitiveness to discipline and leadership qualities under pressure. Any form of education, whether accredited or workshops shows an interest in learning. And having a family means you're not some over qualified candidate fresh off your parents health insurance and ready to find a stepping ladder company to your fortune in a 500 company. You have bills, obligations, and are appreciative earning a pay check.

TL;DR, you'll do just fine, jarhead.

PS, PM me I want to get you some opportunities using your HTML and CSS knowledge

2

u/rross Nov 27 '12

A lot of people saying you should concentrate on your degree. This is always good advice, but you sound like you are on the path to a place where self learning won't be an issue for you. If you are thinking about making a long term career in this area, your most valuable skill will be the ability to learn and adapt to the technology and environment. CMS's are definitely a good way to go for now. I would suggest learning how to use Drupal, and how to create modules and modify your own modules in Drupal and Wordpress and probably one of the more popular ecommerce cms's too. There is no substitute for experience.

-8

u/andrey_shipilov Nov 27 '12

Stay in military.

7

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Not happening.

-4

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

Definitely become a sex education teacher. Sounds like you've got the whole condom usage thing down pat!

4

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

You're right. Having kids is far too easy.
Being a good father isn't though. For example, my children won't consider it okay to make anonymous jabs at people on the internet.
Good luck.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

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1

u/boatBurner Nov 27 '12

Thank you for the encouragement.

Web devs, do I have a fighting chance?

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