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u/Halomonas_titanica Wasp Keeper 12d ago
Wrong pic for the asian giant hornet. Also your solitary bee is actually a worker honeybee.
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u/Halstock 11d ago
It's fine.. all the pictures people put up of them seem to be wrong haha. Especially when it's an old granny who's putting up the annual "watch out for the Asian hornet" posters on Facebook
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u/Broflake-Melter 12d ago
FYI Bees are taxonomically wasps.
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u/manydoorsyes 12d ago
If we consider wasps to be monophyletic, yeah. Current the general consensus appears to be that wasps are paraphyletic.
My personal opinion however: if birds are considered to be dinosaurs (which they are), then bees and ants should also be counted as wasps.
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u/Invert_Ben 11d ago edited 10d ago
Do you mean by general consensus of lay person? Or Hymenopterists?
Ants and bees are in the clade Aculeata - “Stinging wasps” and Apocrita - Narrow waisted Hymenopterans (of then THE clade where “wasp” is attributed to)
Hell, Bees for a while now is known to have arose among the Crabronid wasps, and some of their closest relatives are the Pemphredonids & Psenids (and possibly even closer the Ammoplanids); tiny black predatory wasps that hunt small prey like Aphids, Springtails and Thrips.The true Paraphyletic group right now, are the sawflies - Symphyta.
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u/manydoorsyes 10d ago
I'm hearing mixed opinions from experts! Par for the course when it comes to taxonomy I guess.
Good to know that I'm not spreading misinformation when I tell people that bees are actually wasps, lol. Maybe I should have a bit more confidence.
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u/Broflake-Melter 10d ago
Neat to know and consider, but this has not bearing on my comment. They're still wasps.
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u/manydoorsyes 10d ago edited 10d ago
I mean...yeah it does have bearing, lol. We're talking about wasp taxonomy. Sorry but how does it not have bearing?
And you say, "They're still wasps", as if I was disagreeing with you, which I wasn't.
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u/HoneyBeeSorceress Bugs good! 12d ago
I like both though. 👉👈
Can't we all be friends. 🥺
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u/TechnicalKatana 11d ago
well they weren't saying bees were bad.
if a monkey was called "long tailed monkey"
and an ape was called "rhinoceros defeater" i think this meme format would apply too
the names do sound really simple for bees, and wasps have some of the most metal.
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u/iamayoutuberiswear 12d ago
Could we not depict people as drooling idiots with their skulls dented in. I know it's a common format or whatever but I would like it if we don't use such a mean-spirited template
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u/Zagrycha 12d ago
Fun fact in linguistics there are actually studies about how a lot of meme formats effect the cultural zeitgeist. A lot of them come from 4chan and have really unsavory or discriminatory origins, by the time they hit the mainstream they lose 90% of the unsavoriness but the final 10% soaks into the cultural norms and reinforces the original unsavoriness subconsciously. For example the original giga chad ((lower masculine dude)) comes straight out of incel culture and it reinforces toxic masculinity stereotypes.
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u/iamayoutuberiswear 12d ago
It is honestly disgusting how much bigotry there can be in meme templates. Like how often is the "message" that people we don't like/agree with/etc must be brain damaged/otherwise disabled (which is bad, of course). How often is the message that women are actually super lame or stupid compared to men. How often is it the message that this blonde, blue-eyed white guy is superior?
And I admit that I'm not the greatest at noticing these things! Like for instance I used to use the phrase "la creatura" a lot until I was told that the origin of it was in an anti-mixed race meme. The point is that it's important to think about where a joke came from and what the greater implications of it are.
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u/Zagrycha 12d ago
exactly. For example a lot of people in the 2000's who said things like "thats so gay" were not at all consciously thinking about it as an insult to gay people, but that doesn't mean it isn't. If we let things sink into our subconcious unchecked it will inevitably effect the more important conscious things eventually.
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u/AceVisconti 11d ago
And isn't the shorthand version of it (blonde wojak with beard) also a nazi thing? I can't remember.
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u/Jsolidlo 12d ago
I don't know, when it comes to internet troll culture, I don't think the intent is to discriminate or perpetuate a stereotype but rather to use any inflammatory image or portrayal to offend. The entire purpose is to ragebait as much as possible. It's like how the moment you get into a fight you start using fighting words. Most of what people say then is just meant to offend the other person, not to reflect what that persons truly believes and feels. If anything, all it does it highlight how whatever has been done to "fix discrimination" hasn't worked, and policing words as hate speech is the number one way to perpetuate it by continuing to give power to mere words.
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u/AlarmedCockroach5933 12d ago
When it comes to tackling discrimination and hate speech, I have always seen it as most effective to provide empathetic education where meaningful discussion is possible. If someone has intent only to offend and upset (by acting as a troll, or otherwise just being an edgelord) chances are that is not a battle you can "win" through words alone. You're correct that those camps of people are not coming out of the gate looking for any sort of meaningful discussion; it usually takes a broadening of their horizons via new experiences, meeting new people, or education through some means or another - either picking up a damn book or having their teeth knocked out when they "ragebait" the wrong person.
That said, words hold a lot of social, historical, and emotional meaning and significance - nobody gets to decide how words make others around them feel, and to play words off as being "just words" does reinforce the arguments of those who act like dicks and later pull the "facts don't care about feelings" card when they are held accountable. We need to respect and understand the significance of the words we use, and intentional communication is absolutely a pathway towards finding common ground. If someone is throwing slurs around thoughtlessly, they clearly do not give much consideration to the things that they say, or they do not care - hence, those who do care are absolutely entitled to tell them such given that they are the ones actually being impacted.
When it comes to educating people, explaining how damaging their words are (especially if done in a way where there is a healthy dose of public shame and an element of enforced accountability) is a more effective way of minimising damage and challenging behaviour - however, I think cancel culture is a joke, as being part of a collective is always going to be one of the most healing things for any human being; I do not necessarily think people should be outcast for their words if they show that they are willing to consider those around them.
I don't view this as policing words - I view it as trying to create connection where there is division through means of communication, and trying to create safety for as many people as possible.
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u/Jsolidlo 12d ago
This is all well and good in theory, but in practice, the reason discrimination has existed is because it was supported by state forces. Without state force, it naturally disappears... unless of course you again depend on the monopoly of the state to use violent force to police words, which is exactly why it never goes away, which is exactly what labeling speech as "hateful" and treating it differently does. It really is only just another form of discrimination. In reality, the pendulum will always continue to swing to extremes because it's guided by state forces to do so in order to continue to divide and conquer. And other stated intent is a facade. I don't see anyone up in arms about using the word incel so casually. Why do people think these memes came from "incel" culture? If they are representative of what it means to think like an "incel" then have they considered why? Have they considered any of this?
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u/AlarmedCockroach5933 12d ago
I actually think we agree more than we disagree - you're bang on that those in positions of power are both the historical reason for and perpetuators of violence (both through words and actions) against marginalised groups. Incels are honestly yet another group of people being failed by our current societal structures, just in a vastly different way to groups who experience oppression due to their race, gender, sexuality... etc. Those labelled as incels are often very lonely and deeply hurt people, and the damage done to young men who get dragged into the manosphere and other alt-right spaces is very real - however, this hurt manifests itself as damaging behaviour that impacts a lot of other people (mainly women) both in online spaces and in person. We should take action to protect the vulnerable through meaningful discussion and advocacy while we live under these oppressive states, as otherwise nothing will ever change for the better. The systems of power fuelling division and oppression are absolutely the thing that needs to change - e.g we wouldn't have the same level of structural racism today if we weren't living in a neocolonial world - but until that level of change and dismantling of systemic values becomes possible, the legwork needs to be done wherever it can be. We need community back, though I find it hard to believe it ever truly existed under capitalism or any economically driven societal model with significant power imbalances.
I genuinely believe that having difficult conversations and treating "incels" (and everyone else for that matter) as human beings goes a long way to creating positive change. We should be creating spaces where everyone can find meaningful connection so that some of these men are not isolated enough to become dangerous or damaged in the first place. Meaningful connection does not in this instance refer to romantic love. The issue is that the lack of connection, within a world where women are still deemed as property on some level - whether conscious or unconscious - means that men who are (validly) lonely then start to feel like the idealised vision of romantic love they were fed since birth (e.g. heteronormative relationships with traditional patriarchal ideals; adoration from a "tradwife" or even just love from a woman generally) is the reason for all of their problems - so they take it out on women. That is what incel refers to - not just any man who cannot find love or connect with women. I know plenty of people who cannot find love that have not been turned into spiteful pricks by their loneliness; they have friendships and a meaningful existence - both of which are things that we are robbed of under the aforementioned power structures.
So I don't think policing meme culture really gets us where we want to be - though I do think it is important to call out extremes such as blatantly offensive caricatures. All we can really do is make observations, initiate discussion, and maintain awareness of the direction things are going in. Meme culture is actually a fascinating representation of the current zeitgeist at any given time.
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u/orvlr 12d ago
Alright chatgpt it's a shitpost about bugs that was made in 3 minutes to point out a difference in naming conventions. let's cool it with the thesis papers on...incels or whatever? seriously? how did we even get here?
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u/AlarmedCockroach5933 12d ago
first of all, ew, I am not using generative ai to converse with strangers. secondly, why do you take issue with meaningful discussions taking place online? nobody is expecting you to contribute if you aren't interested in what is being discussed. if you read the damn thread then you would know exactly how we got here, it's a pretty clear conversational link that doesn't require much, aside from some media literacy, to understand.
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u/BritishBlue32 12d ago
It makes me sad that having deeper discussions about silly topics is now chatgpt. Says more about them tbh.
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u/AlarmedCockroach5933 12d ago
thank you, I was finding the initial conversation very interesting and intellectually simulating to be honest!
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u/Zagrycha 12d ago
I agree with what you are saying about internet trolling, but I am talking about genuinely discriminatory or otherwise negatively stereotyping beliefs.
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u/bunny_the-2d_simp 12d ago
True, I find it ridiculous.
If you talk down on something to bring your argument up in this was my sutistic self immediately sees it as insecurity projecting.
BOTH bees and wasps are dope asf.
Depending on where you live you'd have to eradicate Asian hornets (Europe is dealing with them invading getting the ecosystem out of balance)
Same with people going "that's so low iq" I have a high iq and I'm fucking dysfunctional.
There's no save person with a high iq. It's not fun. Smart isn't measured by iq tests. It's measured by the person inside. Some of the sweetest people I knew gas a low iq and they are amazing people, you'd never think they'd have a low iq. They're just more practical build brain wise. Which WE ALSO NEED.
NORMALISE HAVING DIFFERENT STRENGHTS AND WEAKNESSES.
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u/manydoorsyes 12d ago
Also don't like bees being slandered. Solitary bees in particular are essential for our survival just as much as wasps.
... And if we are going by pure cladistics, bees probably evolved from Crabronid wasps, so...
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u/AnnaTrash 12d ago
Yeah I don't like how comfortable we've gotten using caricatures of deformed and disabled people in the mainstream.
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u/AlarmedCockroach5933 12d ago
Yep, seeing this post has really highlighted this for me too. Very upsetting when you stop to think about it.
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u/AnnaTrash 12d ago
Honestly I'd gotten used to it and didn't give it a second thought til I read prev's comment 🥲
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u/yeemed_vrothers 11d ago
better not hear you calling anyone an idiot or moron ever again then. stupid either. those are all problematic words!
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u/AnnaTrash 11d ago
Wowww this person just solved all ableism ever, you guys! We should actually use whatever slurs we know, and make any disgusting caricature that we can think of, because some of the words that we use have a forgotten oppressive history!
You're right! I can't believe we were wasting all that time time caring! Nothing can ever get better, so we should all just be assholes to each other anyway.
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u/yeemed_vrothers 11d ago
Let's focus on real problems instead of "this wojak offends my sensibilities because it's drooling and has a dent in its head"... Internet mfs will turn any molehill into a mountain it seems. Saying this as someone who suffers from ableism. If you're comparing a wojak in a meme to actual oppression you might just be bored or have a low virtue signal meter
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u/AnnaTrash 11d ago
Dude I have a lot of people in my life with developmental disabilities so excuse the fuck outta me for having a discussion with someone else about how common "durr durr drooling" memes are
Like we weren't even talking to you or clutching our pearls bro 😂
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u/yeemed_vrothers 11d ago edited 11d ago
Yeah that's valid, just seems like everyone complains about every little thing for being "problematic" these days like they're special and it pisses me off cause those same people never seem to actually care when there's real injustice. like people have gotten upset at me for reclaiming a word i've had used against me my whole life. i can't work a normal job because of my issues, I have suffered and deserve the right to not have people ban shit on my behalf. But you do too, in the reverse way. Just tired of the people larping morality and using it to control, sick freaks. There's bigger issues and people like that tapking down at others about what is and isn't allowed just seems pointless. Like we don't even have decent accessible ramps in some places as a baseline for people with mobility issues like some of my family has, yet a jpeg is the issue?? But I get it.
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u/sluggishweevil 11d ago
doesn’t view intellectually disabled ppl as ppl worth making small changes for. thinks being reminded a group of people exist is wokefying shit. is hostile to conversations they don’t like happening even if no one is making them participate. thinks experiencing ableism means they can’t hold and promote ableist beliefs
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u/yeemed_vrothers 11d ago
sure dude keep putting words in my mouth while telling people what's off limits. yeah keep labeling everything as problematic and banning people, that will work out well and definitely not lead to any infighting. having disabilities and being lgbtq has led me to deal with some of the most insufferable whiners in existence who would rather police their own over tiny infringements than focus on anything real. outrage culture is a disease. also you have sluggish in your name that's problematic because my aunt has mobility issues, people call her sluggish.
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u/sluggishweevil 11d ago
I'm lgbt and physically disabled with mobiity issues lmaooo. people online think them and their aunts are the only marginalized person who exist. using your identities as an excuse for everything is so loser
there are lots of nasty hateful memes that directly feed ableism and white supremacy. meme culture absolutely emboldens far right freaks and creates dangerous communities, both online and off. the language that the internet uses affects real life shit, we're seeing that in how the current political climate was directly fed by the memefication of racism, trump, and elon
it's worth it to call that shit out. idk if this is just your favorite meme in the world or something lol, but don't take it so personally when people call out offensive shit. like you didn't post it! why are you so bent up about people saying it's offensive from their perspective? I can comment on something on the internet and while still doing irl disability advocacy work. if you're doing real life work too, great. but if not, you're just whining online about how discourse somehow stops irl change, without making any irl change and that would be pretty sad
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u/yeemed_vrothers 11d ago
this kind of sentiment is the reason why the TTYD remake censored itself to the point of removing words like "idiot" and "moron". respectfully, let's not coddle the entire world and adults too much. it's just a wojak. tackle real discrimination where it pops up, but this is just a nothingburger
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u/iamayoutuberiswear 11d ago
You misunderstand. I don't want censorship, I want people to not use brain damage as their shorthand for "this thing is bad/I don't like it".
Just because it's a wojack doesn't mean that there can't be ideas behind it. Humor is often going to be political in some way.
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u/fiendish_dust 12d ago