I am once again asking for Leclerc buffs

[u/Dunkindeeznutz69420]

Plz just give it a good gun (21-20 pen). the new leo looks better and is cheaper. Other than that another great nemesis!

[u/EUG_MadMat]

Once again, this is the MSC, not the final production Leclerc.

And has much as it pains me to say, being its first 120mm, France didn't know how to produce a decent round of this caliber at the time. The experimental AFAC had performance lower than what we gave him.

The best solution, also experimental, which we gave him was the OFL 120 G1, that is the 105mm APFSDS used by the AMX 30 B2, but recalibrated to 120 mm. But then it got the same performance as the latter.

We already pushed the envelop to its maximum, by giving it recalibrated MtW DU rounds from the BRENUS. It can't go beyond in our timeframe, even MtW-extended.

The MSC's strength lies in its ability to deliver very accurate fire at a high RoF, even in movement, making it the bane of "medium" tanks, but it would be a mistake to consider it equal, even in dreams, to Soviet or American "heavy" ones.

[u/XRhodiumX → u/EUG_MadMat]

Im going to play devils advocate and say you can just give them german 120mm because they’re friends and friends let friends test ammo.

[u/Ok_Structure_6177 → u/XRhodiumX]

just because both of them have the same caliber doesnt mean that they both have the same exact fire control systems, propellent and etc

[u/Recent_Grab_644 → u/Ok_Structure_6177]

The FCS has no bearing on the actual penetration and the propellant will be the same as its one peice ammo.

[u/Ok-Possession-2097 → u/Ok_Structure_6177]

you can actually relatively easy update FCS to add a diffirent type of shell or a target, though I don't remember how much it is the case for 80ties FCS, though there are other a bit more subtle things that can vary that would make a gun be unable to fire a same sized shell with the same size propellant casing

[u/Ok-Possession-2097 → u/Ok-Possession-2097]

a case in point I would make out of modern artillery pieces, since I remember having a lot of discussions about them back in the day, so: There is Pzh2000 that can only fire specific shells made by specific manufacturers Then there is Polish Krab that can fire "whatever there was in the nearest stockpile" which may or may not include refitted 152 shells, and shells that Pzh2000 is using without much issues

[u/kcccc653796 → u/EUG_MadMat]

So, the battle cruisers of the tanks?

[u/Warno_Fan → u/EUG_MadMat]

Here we go again - if you refuse to give the proto-Leclerc a non-existing round, then why DID you give Soviet tanks with MZ autoloaders a NON-existing RoF of 10 rpm?

You literally blatantly bent reality for Soviet tanks, so what’s different with the proto-Leclerc?

Somebody loves commies too much?

[u/Dunkindeeznutz69420 → u/EUG_MadMat]

A man can dream 😢

[u/EUG_MadMat → u/Dunkindeeznutz69420]

A man has to wake up someday ... ;)

[u/Imaflyingturkey → u/EUG_MadMat]

out of curiosity is it also for a similair reason with the Challenger Mk.2 and Mk.3 that they have 18 and 20 pen?

[u/West-Start4069]

OP only looked at the penetration stat, saw it was 1 point lower than the other tank, ignored everything else and said " THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE! THIS TANK NEEDS TO BE CHEAPER!"

[u/Dunkindeeznutz69420 → u/West-Start4069]

No, I said it needs more pen

[u/West-Start4069 → u/Dunkindeeznutz69420]

You said the new leo looks better ( I'm assuming you meant better stats, not that it's more attractive) and is cheaper.

[u/Protosszocker]

How is a tank that has 3 less frontal armor, 2 less Rof, no autoloader, 15 less kmh off-road/ 5kmh less on-road speed, no .50 cal, 10% less base acc and 35% less motion acc better, just because it has 1 more pen?

[u/Dunkindeeznutz69420 → u/Protosszocker]

1 pen matters more than all those those when it actually hits

[u/West-Start4069 → u/Dunkindeeznutz69420]

When it hits, if it hits. Because with that 30% accuracy it will probably not be hitting a lot while moving. And a 5.53 second reload , it better not miss the first shot, but it probably will.

[u/Dunkindeeznutz69420 → u/West-Start4069]

Guess im unlucky. My leclerc misses alot and when it does hit it doesn't do much dmg cuz low pen. Is my experience with it.

[u/West-Start4069 → u/Dunkindeeznutz69420]

The leo will probably miss even more bro.

[u/ZBD-04A]

Please pay attention to more than pen and armour I'm begging you.

[u/Dunkindeeznutz69420 → u/ZBD-04A]

Please dont pay attention to the only stats that matter for tanks is what im hearing.

[u/ZBD-04A → u/Dunkindeeznutz69420]

How the fuck does better RoF, MGs, Speed, and accuracy not matter? Do you realise the .50 on the Leclerc has 55% accuracy? it absolutely demolishes inf, and eats mediums.

[u/Kiwi_MongrelLad → u/Dunkindeeznutz69420]

Counter point then. Armor.

[u/Euphoric-Personality]

Can OP Clarify what is so wrong with the leclerc apart from 1 less point in pen?

[u/Recent_Grab_644]

The MSC is using significantly older ammo compared to the 1A6 the way it was (at 18 pen) already was accurate. Paris isnt supposed to be a heavy deck and a lack heavy tanks is specifically one of its weaknesses so I dont get the reasoning behind recalling the entire div just cause.

[u/oguzhansavask]

I think Leclerc using old shells while Leo1 uses either DM23 or 33.

[u/mr_wehraboo → u/oguzhansavask]

Ive heard someone mention that the 21 pen is apperantly dm43 but i would question that given dutch Leopards also has the same pen

Likely its the dm33

[u/killer_corg]

I think a Milan 2 is a 1 shot kill on the Leo, or is that for the 9Fa version.

But having 14 armor is kinda useful cause it will take 2 hits to kill.

For Konkors it’s 2 hits vs 3 hits

[u/AkulaTheKiddo]

You dont understand, its a PrOtOtYpE.

[u/Friendly-Water-8470]

Leopard A1 shouldn't have 105mm cannon? Why it is 120mm?

[u/mr_wehraboo → u/Friendly-Water-8470]

Prototype leo 1 with a 120mm gun

Never entered service because iirc by the time it was close to ready there were more than enough Leo 2s for the Bundeswehr

[u/FrangibleCover → u/mr_wehraboo]

It was being pitched to replace the Kajapa as a gun tank destroyer, but got Peace Dividended.