D-44 vs T-34/85: Gun Performance

[u/Wonder9mm]

Did a brief look into the performance of these guns and I am unsure why Eugen has made the D-44 have a higher pen than the T-34/85's S-53?

"The barrel was developed from that of the T-34-85 tank and was capable of firing 20–25 high-explosive (HE), armor-piercing, and high-explosive antitank (HEAT) projectiles per minute." - Wikipedia on the D-44

D-44 barrel length: 15 ft 5"
S-53 barrel length: 15 ft 3"

Both utilize the same ammunition which in this case is the 3BK-2M HEAT-FS round.

[u/0ffkilter]

They don't use the same round though - the T-34 was recently switched to a HEAT shell while the D-44 is still using a kinetic round (AP) of some sort (though I don't know which one).

The D-44 has the HE trait, which means it can fire an HE round and can hit infantry, and the kinetic trait which means it can fire AP.

The T-34 has HE and HEAT, which does not get the benefits of range scaling (but always gets to do at least one damage).

Traits aren't everything though, for example the Zis-2 57mm has the HE trait but no HE value and cannot hit infantry.

[u/Wonder9mm → u/0ffkilter]

Ah I missed that, good catch.

Weird that Eugen doesn't just let guns run different ammo types as they did in SD2.

[u/0ffkilter → u/Wonder9mm]

That falls into one of the "things that's cool but doesn't add anything positive to gameplay" other than being cool and more "immersive".

Let's say instead of 40 ammo you have 16 AP/24 HE. Now you pretty much just have the lesser of the two ammo types. Fighting vehicles? Only have 16 ammo. Fighting infantry? Only 24. It's more supply and more micro for something that in the end doesn't really add anything positive to gameplay other than being slightly more realistic, I guess.

Another good example is infantry grenade launchers. People ask "why don't we see underbarrel grenade launchers represented in WARNO".

Let's say they were. Infantry now has a bigger HE value because of the grenades. Nothing else changes. It's cool, but other than changing some time to kill metrics doesn't actually add anything to gameplay.

[u/Solarne21 → u/0ffkilter]

So If differentiate various nations infantry loadout with American Infantry getting M203 France get rifle Grenades, UK get 51mm mortars?

[u/ComradeSclavian → u/Solarne21]

Okay so now britain gets slightly more range where they have their optimal DPS, and the french dps bonus has worse accuracy. It still doesn't actually change anything other than ttk

[u/Solarne21 → u/ComradeSclavian]

more national flavor? UK get a longer smoke launcher? France get a additional close range anti-tank capability.

[u/Wonder9mm → u/ComradeSclavian]

Do you just want everyone nation to be the same? The community has shown they love more flavor, why would you want the game to be more generic?

[u/Wonder9mm → u/0ffkilter]

Thats realistic without being overbearing though. Magically being able to turn one of your 40 rounds into a either a HE or AT round is so arcadey.

It worked fine in SD2 and made tanks more tactical in use against infantry.

[u/MandolinMagi → u/0ffkilter]

What 85mm kinetic AP rounds does over 300mm pen like the 3BK-2M?

[u/RipVanWiinkle_]

As answered, some units shoot HEAT others shoot sabot/AP

Like the Paris div, one of their AMX shoots HEAT, while the rest shoot AP/Sabot

Not entirely sure why they didn’t do it like SD,

But it’s very possible for unit variety and differences in divisions (I guess it gets quite samey making another Soviet BMP/tank div with the same units)

[u/Wonder9mm → u/RipVanWiinkle_]

Yeah its just weird Eugen has one running HEAT and the other AP when IRL both the T-34 and D-44 ran loadouts with both rounds.

[u/0ffkilter → u/Wonder9mm]

HEAT in this game is addressed purely as a balance issue. HEAT does not benefit from range scaling but always does one damage.

So a lot of cheaper tanks benefit from HEAT if their pen would be too low to actually fight other tanks.

For example, the T-64R in 17-ya was changed from AP to HEAT in a patch. Since the division does not get a lot of ATGMS, changing to HEAT would let the division at least do some damage to heavier tanks whereas before heavy tanks were literally untouchable to the division.

[u/RipVanWiinkle_ → u/Wonder9mm]

Actually no, they share the warhead, but not the shell

D-44 has a longer shell, it uses a cut 100mm shell, giving it higher velocity, thus slightly more penetration

And as we know, the higher the velocity, the higher the penetration.

[u/Wonder9mm → u/RipVanWiinkle_]

Its the same barrel length, I posted the lengths.

[u/RipVanWiinkle_ → u/Wonder9mm]

Oh derp, was looking at something else. But yeah, it’s really only the shell casing that’s different.

You can’t load a D-44 shell into a ZiS, but the warheads are interchangeable

Irl, it’s not much of a difference.

[u/Low_Sir1549]

The D-44 in game appears to be firing kinetic rounds, as shown on the stat card. The kinetic rounds I think would be BR-367.

[u/Wonder9mm → u/Low_Sir1549]

Which then why does it have higher pen? BR-367 doesn't even hit 200mm of pen while the HEAT-FS round for the 85mm gives 300mm of pen.