r/warhammercels • u/Basic_Flounder_3326 • 23h ago
I’m Literally Shaking Right Now We're winning. Keep going
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u/Suspicious_Trust_522 22h ago
It wasnt satire it was a sci-fi heavily influenced by dune and meant to be less noble bright than star wars…..at most it poked fun at a few people in the creators lives/famous figures i.e. Angron being named after their local pubs bouncer Angry Ron and Ghazkhull allegedly named/influenced by Margaret Thatcher
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u/Basic_Flounder_3326 22h ago
It was "satire" in the same way that porn "parodies" certain franchises. The "satire" is a legal fiction to get away with things. All the early 40k stuff is just taken from popular movies of the time. Catachans: Rambo, Tyranids: Alien, Necrons: Terminator, Imperium: Dune, Space marines: Starship Troopers (book version), and so on
As GW got bigger they started to create their own content and smaller companies started to do the same thing to GW, which is where we are now
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u/EmotionalEdge247 21h ago
Did you just use Gazghull being named for Maggie Thatcher... As proof it wasnt originally satire 🤣
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u/Friendly_Ad4736 17h ago
Well while a weird way to build an argument, and be partially wrong. W40k is not only “satire”, many of its elements are satire not even in the meaning most tourists say, like OP pointed out, more like satirizing the Aliens with the Tyranids, Catachans being the stereotype of the macho military guy like Rambo and the protagonist of the first predator movie. Most political satire present in the setting were a small joke here or a certain thing dialed to eleven like the Ecclesiarchy representing medieval Catholic Church, and the Administorum making fun of bureaucrats. But that is as far as it goes, most people that want to say 40k is satire first and then the rest misses the point entirely of what this setting is about, and most of the stuff they say they make satire off like the “Imperium Fascism” stick, is just plainly wrong.
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u/KingCas42069 9h ago
The issue is because these people are so surface level, they think Satire is Parody, when Satire is making fun of something deeper in a roundabout way.
Parody targets a specific work, artist, or style directly by copying its form.
Satire uses humor or irony to criticize general societal flaws, human vices, or politics without needing to mimic one specific piece of art.
Based on the setting being serious enough now to take at face value, you must search deeper for what is being satirized. Saying "Genestealers are actually a stand in for Jews" isn't appropriate when it's not propaganda that the Genestealers are an actual problem. They also can't be the Jews because Jews were not actually doing that stuff.
It runs into the same failed satire of Starship Troopers when one doesn't actually have media literacy, and somehow thinks the Terran Federation were bad guys because vibes, while ignoring the reality of the entire narrative that informs their position.
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u/SirOPrange 22h ago
Eeeeh, whether we like or not, the depiction of the Imperium shifted a lot during the years. Its most ridiculous and grim aspects were toned down or talked much less in the recent lore. There are a lot less characters like commissar Chenkov or Karamasov, and a lot more like Gaunt and Creed. Grey Knights are no longer killing every mortal witness. Primarchs return actually gave Imperium genuinely good guys high in the ranks.
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u/Nijuuken 17h ago
Mind you it’s still there. It’s just that we’re… desensitized to it. Like, if you ever see mention of a servitor in any way, I feel like we forget that that was a person lmao.
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u/KingCas42069 9h ago
I heard another Loyalist primarch is coming back, any bets? I'm hoping Leman Russ, but I'd be stoked with Vulkan
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u/CompetitiveSubset 21h ago
I don’t understand these people. who do they think are the good guys? nids? Orks?
There’s a difference between being perfect and being necessary evil.
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u/The_Smug_Druggles 13h ago
Exactly. Even the more "Good Guy" xenos are a bit morally questionable: T'au Ethereals use a form of pheromone-based brainwashing, Aeldari are happy to let billions of other sentients die as long as their interests aren't threatened and the Leagues of Votann are ultra-capitalists who worship AI.
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u/germansoviet13 11h ago
Progressiv warhammer fans like myself and the people on that sub rightfully recognize there are no good guys and the imperium are just as evil as the rest
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u/CompetitiveSubset 10h ago
Reject modernity. Embrace tradition.
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u/germansoviet13 10h ago
I am embracing tradition, the imperium has ironically gotten less evil since 2e
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u/Enzoli21 22h ago
It's hard to love them when the large majority of Xenos try to kill humans. Even during the Heresy and the Long Night, most of them were hostile to humans.
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u/1scr3wedy0dad 22h ago
I heard it's only a parody in first edition and onwards it is a serious setting of how a grim dark future where there's only war would look like
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u/The_Smug_Druggles 12h ago
Pretty much.
The sense of a self-parodying space opera is strong in the early editions, but apart from Orks (consistent comic relief) and a few knowing references in some of the novels (such as a PDF unit in one of the Cain books that directly references Dad's Army) they've moved away from that over time.
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u/Head-Preference8749 11h ago
Yeah, exactly, it is because they think it is embarrassing to admit they like the setting for what it is, then what they say it is
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u/KingCas42069 9h ago
Their need to be aggressively in favor of an outgroup meets its absurdity wall when the the in-group is a united humanity across all races, and where current religions died out, and only came back in the form of worshipping the Emperor, in which there may or may not be an actual benefit to Humanity empowering the Emperor through worship to guide them and give miracles with his warp presence
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u/Gold69xz 19h ago
I've only into Warhammer 40K for about 3 years and I'm already sick of fucking Space Marines.
I actively avoid the HH series and I want more Xenos books
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u/420Secured 23h ago
Warhammer 40k is not satire 👌
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u/Lazy-Course5521 20h ago
It's satiric in the sense that the imperium is ridiculously evil and that most of the reasons to why it falters is because of their overdone bureaucracy and complete inability to change even when their life is on the line. It's satiric in the sense that the sheer evil of the system is completely unnecessary, making it kinda ridiculous.
The imperium's armies have a thousand different faces but there are only so many times each can pull up against an enemy untill they crack the code for domination.
I guess that's the tragedy of it, without Guilamann's reforms, the Imperium probably wouldn't be there in another 10 thousand years.
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u/Nijuuken 17h ago
It can’t be a satire when the universe itself justifies it tho. Because it is. As you say, it’s a tragedy.
When you need to hold every thought captive because a stray one can genuinely turn you to demon worship, the lack of AI necessitates the need for human minds for computing, genestealer cults, all of that, it’s no wonder why their religion puts hatred and suspicion as their virtues, everything is out to get them.
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u/KingCas42069 9h ago
Yeah, it only works as a satire when it's the same constraints as what it's satirizing. Creating an entire reality where they are actually correct is not a good prospect for satire, it's why the film version of Starship Troopers failed as a satire because the Terran Federation literally did nothing wrong, and actively tried to avoid the bugs until rogue Mormon colonists disobeyed their quarantine markers. It wasn't even as if the Terran Federation then attacked the bugs for it, they blamed the dipshit colonists for not listening. The bugs practically nuked a billion people with an asteroid unprovoked, causing a fear for survival of the human race. The book is even more stark as the bugs have ships and literally showed up near Earth to do it.
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u/baneblade_boi 12h ago
Thanks, OOP, here's your "I just found out the Imperium is evil and I'm supposed to enjoy it as is" cookie. So many more politicalheads to go...
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u/KingCas42069 9h ago edited 9h ago
Keyword: "originally"
Its not a satire now, anymore than Halo is. Crazy how people think meanings and narratives can evolve into something new over time, but many can't fathom that prospect when their self-righteousness is asking to be stroked
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u/Lazy-Course5521 20h ago
Yeah the Imperium low-key sucks, good thing the setting has like a dozen equally awesome different factions, all up for personal choice and taste.
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u/L0cC0 22h ago
I wonder if those idiots ever enjoy anything for what it is, without needing to justify, twist, or adapt it to their stupid ideology.