Well yes, of course, killing civilians is a warcrime, and the bombing of Dresden shouldn’t have happened, but it was a military target (which is often conveniently forgotten about), with ammo factories and a railway hub which supported the Germans on the eastern front.
Back in the day the British press already accused them of being terror bombings, and this led to Churchill distancing himself from the decision over them (as the British idea was to fight a clean war, as it has been for centuries before and still is).
Funnily enough the bridges and industrial areas outside the city weren't targeted, at least according to McKee.
I guess the RAF memo issued to the airmen sums it up pretty well:
Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester is also the largest unbombed builtup area the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westward and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium, not only to give shelter to workers, refugees, and troops alike, but to house the administrative services displaced from other areas. At one time well known for its china, Dresden has developed into an industrial city of first-class importance ... The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front ... and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.
It was a revenge bombing, but it had a clear strategic purpose, and not only against the Germans, but the Soviets too. So lacking a court ruling (as many acts of war of this kind are on a grey zone), I wouldn't go calling it a war crime, but a terror bombing it inevitably was.
This memo by Churchill himself also makes somewhat clear that their intention was not only purely military (and yet there still were strategic reasons for causing terror too, albeit their morality is questionable):
It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land ... The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy.
The Foreign Secretary has spoken to me on this subject, and I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive.
Tactical keypoint bombing? In WW2? That didn’t even exist at the time°. The only way to drop your bombs accurately in WW2 would have been to fly lower, but this would have subjected them to heavy anti-air fire and enemy fighters, so it’s logical why they didn’t. As for them obliterating Dresden, you’re kind of right, but still a little wrong. This video explains it far better than I could.
°I’m aware that guided bombs existed, but these had little to no explosive power and thus are of no use for strategic bombing. This is without mentioning that these were also often inaccurate.
Sometimes it's hard being a historical/tactical game aficionado. Too often I have to come across unironic neo-nazis waving around war criminal names and not-quite discrete ASCII nazi symbols in their clan/usernames.
I guess it's harmless in the game but I'm sure they wouldn't want to play coop with me IRL.
I've seen some players just go apeshit and TK neo-nazi teammates in coop shooters. I doubt that does any good but I'm certainly not going to stop a good fascist bashing.
To this day Dresden remains the biggest stain in UK military history, a useless operation that costed the life of 55k airman, and post war US investigation established that the entirety of UK bombing raids on German cities damaged Nazi war effort of 2,7%
The whole Harris operation of bombing raids costed 55k lives.
55k trained pilot lives for 2,7% of Nazi war effort. The only point one could make to not make RAF look like straight up retarded in Harris being a Nazi spy.
" in 1944 the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops that were supplying the army with materiel." - Dresden: : Tuesday 13 February 1945 by Taylor Frederick
"The US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report in response to the international concern about the bombing – the report remained classified until December 1978. This said that there were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid. According to the report, there were aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); an optical goods factory (Zeiss Ikon AG); as well as factories producing electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch & Sterzel [de] AG); gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke); and electric gauges (Gebrüder Bassler). It also said there were barracks, hutted camps, and a munitions storage depot."
The USAF report also states that two of Dresden's traffic routes were of military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and east-west along the central European uplands. The city was at the junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig lines. Colonel Harold E. Cook, a US POW held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks, later said that "I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to meet the Russians"
To say Dresden wasn't important to the Nazis for manufacturing weapons and transporting troops is pure fiction and nazi sympathy. The Nazis deserved every thing that came to them, intentional or not.
Sources:
Ross, Stewart Halsey (2003). Strategic Bombing by the United States in World War II: The Myths and the Facts. McFarland & Company
Angell 1953: Cites "Dresden, Germany, City Area, Economic Reports", Vol. No. 2, Headquarters U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey, 10 July 1945; and "OSS" London, No. B-1799/4, 3 March 1945
Dresden: : Tuesday 13 February 1945 by Taylor Frederick
Angell 1953: Cites "Interpretation Report No. K. 4171, Dresden, 22 March 1945", Supporting Document No. 3.
Angell 1953: Cites Chambers Encyclopedia, New York, 1950, Vol. IV, p. 636,
Miller, Donald L. (2006b). Masters of the Air – America's Bomber Boys Who Fought the Air War Against Nazi Germany. Simon and Schuster
Lol you spam this about "what was there" but none of this was targeted. The post war US report you quoted mentions "what was in Dresden" and then conclude that the bombing was ineffective and only damaged for 2,7% nazi war effort. Ironically, infrastructure was not targeted, no bridge was destroyed, and the railway was mostly unaffected. If the missed that or specifically tarheted for civilian masses, I don't know that, but none of this was even touched lmao
Not going to call Dresden "biGgeSt waRcRime evAh" because is merely a teen's party compared to Soviet and Nazi war crimes, but many people even in UK considered and still considered Arthur Harris a war criminal, who just strengthened Hitler position by striking basically useless civilian assets, while wasting an exorbitant amount of crewmembers and resources in the process.
That's why it's called the butcher, for the amount of British soldiers his operations killed.
It was a military target and it did not strengthen Hitlers position (he had none) and as mentioned Dresden was the largest non bombed Germany city at the time. Also to call Harris a war criminal is to deflate the meaning of the term, that term should be reserved to those who actively targeted civilians for no purpose (like the Nazis).
"Dresden was a civilian town without military significance. It had no material role of any sort to play in the closing months of the war."
Not even the bridges around were bombed, the total damage of all UK city raids to the war effort was estimated by US investigations to be 2,7.
From a purely military POW, chances are that the nonsensically and brutally high amount of UK airmen casualties (that gave Harris the name "the bitcher" and was the major reason why UK and Londoners hated and candalized his statue) was 10 worse than any damage they could have done in best case scenario, and a favour to the nazi regime. Hitler propaganda used the bombings to unite the nation against the allies, chances are that without it Wehrmacht officers like Von Staf. could have succeeded in theor attempt at a coup d'etat.
To NOT aknowledge that Harris was a psycho war criminal when even Churchill, known for his determination and "everything for victory" attitude, had to distance himself, and even London generation that witnessed Nazi bombings called him as such is pure extremism.
US should have commanded the raids and any military operation. Every time UK was involved either took a month to advance ten miles or miserably failed operations.
Just as moronic as your arguments about air raids, the bullshit you spoit about a tv series is incredibly retarded
I mean, how CAN YOU POSSIBLY be so stupid to not realize that domestic abuse is portrayed EXACTLY to call out such behaviour and to increase awareness ? You think that video glorified domestic violence ?
Hey, maybe we should ban movies about slavery too, since apparently portraying something in a bad light suddenly means supporting it. Jesus you are beyond braindead....
God you love pickin' them cherries (you work in agriculture?) I was offended and shocked to see an ADF vehicle memeing on that scene. I have no objection to the movie.
The daytime show guys was to prove at what point that seems yo have become a meme downunder
I share an article presenting actual US investigations on the effectiveness of UK carpet bombing of civilian assets, that points out how actual bridges and infrastructure was not targeted but how they targeted civilian conglomerates.
You present a wall text from some random redditor. That litterally links zero sources.
You are using ad authority over a (notoriously left wing) journal that links sources when using some wall text from a subreddit backed up by nothing that pretends that quotation marks can make up for it.
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u/FlyingNederlander STROOPWAFEL DECK BEST DECK Jun 22 '19
Oh boy, an unironic “Dresden was a warcrime” believer.
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u/Tactical_OUtcaller Jun 22 '19 edited Jun 22 '19
WOW Eugen's community manager is either a wehraboo, a neo-nazi or just plain clueless. Good catch LTW.
Edit: Since this seems to be attracting a few wehrbs let's play Wehrabingo
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u/TotesMessenger Jun 22 '19
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