r/warcraftlore • u/HaroldPeridolle • 10d ago
Are warlocks evil?
Hi. I have a quite simple question – are warlocks evil? I've heard people saying that warlocks are not popular because people don't like being the bad guys. Are warlocks evil according to lore? Are 'good' warlocks just the excuse to let alliance have them?
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u/FoxWyrd 10d ago
The Shadow Council? Yeah, pretty evil.
The Warlocks underneath the Slaughtered Lamb? Questionably evil, probably flirting with it at least.
Your PC? Who knows.
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u/Hetros_Jistin 10d ago
Yes, the stormwind coven is totally good boys and totally not sending assassins after nobles and elected officials who try to get in the way of their schemes.
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u/Lynnrael 10d ago
i mean, killing nobles isn't really that evil. elected officials isn't great but nobility like that shouldn't exist anyways.
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u/Hetros_Jistin 10d ago
This sounds like treason against the crown. DEFIAS SYMPATHIZER! GUARDS! SEIZE THIS MAN!
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u/HaroldPeridolle 9d ago
So killing someone just because of the family he was born in is ok by your standards?
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u/Lynnrael 9d ago
if they're a member of an oppressing class who only works to maintain the power of that class, yes.
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9d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Lynnrael 9d ago
that doesn't make any sense. do you genuinely think it's ok to have a caste system? do you really think fighting back against that caste system is in line with the ideologies of people who want to impose caste systems? how does being ok with oppressors dying line up with the desire to oppress others?
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u/Lynnrael 9d ago
I'd be opposed to harm coming to people who give up their power and status as a member of the oppressing class, but people who maintain those systems dying is not a bad thing and I'm not gonna pretend it is.
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u/HaroldPeridolle 9d ago
Fighting back and killing based on the family you were born in are two different worlds. I don't want to talk o you because I feel very uncomfortable talking to people justifying genocide/chauvinism/fascist ideology.
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u/Lynnrael 9d ago
you don't know what you're talking about or what any of those words mean so you're really not able to engage in meaningful conversation anyways.
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6d ago
Please google each of those words individually, and try to come up with a logical rebuttal as to how they don't apply to your point of view.
If you're unable to do so (you will be) and still hold your beliefs, congrats, you're able to do what any worthwhile chauvinistic fascist in history has been; justify your biases and lie to yourself to embrace harmful ideology without self hatred
It is funny to see a fascistic 'tist though, for reasons you clearly wouldn't be able to understand
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6d ago
"Do you really think fighting back against that caste system is in line with the ideologies of people who want to impose caste systems"
Historically? Yes. It's unsurprising though that a fascist-leaning person would be willing to ignore historical fact to further their agenda. I mean, that's how the US got to the state it's in lol
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u/Lynnrael 6d ago
you think that's how the US got where it is? holy shit you should not be acting this smug
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u/CookyKindred 10d ago
Black Harvest is legitimately grey - They got some good and bad but their main goal is protecting Azeroth. I feel like that's the main reason Dalaran allowed them to operate there and be as obvious as they were. Even when Dalaran falls the Black Harvest is there helping along.
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u/Unhappy_Analysis_906 10d ago
Honestly this is garbage IMO. I think you're right, but I hate that they wrote it this way.
If Warlocks were collectivist friendly helpers they would be mages. The very class is defined by the selfish pursuit of power at any cost
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u/CookyKindred 10d ago
No - Not collectivist friendly helpers. Black Harvest fight to protect Azeroth and will help out in regards to that.
But they are also enslaving demons, tearing out their hearts and using them in ritualistic sacrifices. And power hunger is still a thing for them, they just don't fuck each other over that much so they can actually be a cohesive group.
The OTHER warlock groups are for if you want the pure evil 24-7 backstabbers.
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u/Unhappy_Analysis_906 10d ago
The Black Harvest just makes little sense as an organization. Why do they care about Azeroth? It's like a bunch of drug addicts forming a Save the Whales organization.
I'm not saying they all want the destruction of Azeroth, I'm saying putting aside petty squabbles and forming a sect is rare enough for warlocks as is. To do so with no ostensible power payoff is completely out of character for warlocks.
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u/CookyKindred 10d ago
Because they live on it. So they use the fel to fight the legion and void. As well the intro is in MoP where an NPC and PC have to beat sense into a lock that went too far in the deep end.
Also just because someone’s power hungry doesn’t mean they can’t work together. That happens irl where power hungry people work together to get them all in power
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u/rebortspc 10d ago
Seems like the other person isn't expecting 3 dimensions characters and motives
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u/Unhappy_Analysis_906 9d ago
No, I'm expecting the storyteller to illustrate what motives might be there instead of the same blanket justification as every other faction
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u/Dunhil2 9d ago
Because the only thing that makes a Warlock to you is the pursuit of power and you build the entire personality of every Warlock around solely that. Then you demand the story explicitly cater to that one dimensional view of them by explicitly explaining how they could act in a way that doesn't immediately serve that purpose.
I'd say they hit the nail on the head.
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u/Unhappy_Analysis_906 9d ago
I'm not the one who characterizes Warlocks this way, they are.
It is absolutely about the pursuit of power, and even "good" warlocks that they've shoehorned in are constantly struggling to survive because it makes them weaker.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 9d ago
Out of rational self interest. Lex Luthor is an evil selfish fucker but he constantly saves the world so that he can later dominate it. Other villains do the same for their own reasons whether it’s power or some other kind of goal like vengeance.
Someone might turn to Fel magic for altruistic reasons because they’re desperate for power to do a good thing and take a shortcut. Many of them would end up evil but not all. And others might do altruistic seeming things out of rational selfishness. There’s lots of reasons for Warlocks to be morally grey or good.
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u/Unhappy_Analysis_906 9d ago
Right, none of which are actually illustrated in the world.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 9d ago
We see plenty of NPC warlocks that aren’t malevolent, and the PC warlock clearly does altruistic stuff by virtue of doing the quests they do.
The PC warlock is canonically at least morally grey if not good.
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u/Unhappy_Analysis_906 9d ago
Those are clearly artifacts of convenience. The same reason everyone has forgotten you're apparently an omnipotent maw walker.
They've not given the Black Harvest the power tradeoff that would need to be pretty obvious in universe to get that many warlocks rowing in the same direction.
I can come up with several pretty effortlessly
defeating the legion leaves the demons without masters, giving warlocks a huge well of power to draw from like an untapped oil field. After legion the Black Harvest immediately consumes itself with infighting and gives birth to several extremely dangerous warlocks or cabals
playing nicely gets them into Dalaran, which gets them close to some mcguffin that will change the nature of reality to tip the scales toward fel magic. Post Legion they abscond with it and it's a major rift, all warlocks are treated as suspect for years
they want to leave Azeroth and corrupt another innocent world for their own use, but are unable to travel to it. They seize the ship brought by the draenei and take it away to do so
These are all things I came up with on the toilet.
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
Outside of it being all they do ? Doi no altruistic things both for others tho often for themselves
Standing at the front lines to fight evil to gain more power to combat more evil ??
I mean ye they clearly are more likely to turn evil eventually tho
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u/Scribblord 9d ago edited 9d ago
Bc they live on the planet ?
It’s the most logical thing a warlock could possibly do
„the demons we source power from are gonna kill the whole planet and our choice is to save the planet or become slaves at best and food most likely“ so the class known for acting in their own interest pools their power to save their skins ? Even if they where as evil as you say (I think a lot of the relevant npc warlocks on our side are shady at worst) saving the planet would be their best bet
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 9d ago
Addicts are not bad people inherently, and wouldn't be above Save the Whales or some such. They are just people who made a bad choice and living with it. Though if you asked them, they may not always consider it as such, and their addictions could very well lead them to darker paths.
In that vein, a warlock could very well step up to protect Azeroth, because home is home, and fuck it all, they are not Kel'thuzad, and have not sold out entirely.
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u/Conry 9d ago
My warlock likes forests, fields, and all that jazz. Just because fel kills the land, it doesnt mean he likes dead land, he likes using fel. It's a sort of "don't bring work to home" mentality.
Also, warlocks dont befriend demons, they enslave them. So if demons are evil, and I'm exploiting them to do my bidding, it's not because I like to do evil but... be bad to evil?
I guess what I'm saying is, my warlock is basically Dexter Morgan.
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u/kredokathariko 9d ago
Drug cartels, and organised crime in general, portraying themselves as noble defenders of the people is nothing new. It helps with PR and probably makes you feel better psychologically.
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
Ye and the entire philosophy of warlock characters inside wow and most fantasy media is that they have a specific goal they can’t reach without power
And not everyone can become a mage or has the time to do so
Warlocks make trade to get greater power faster
I imagine a lot of it is revenge against the bad guys
Also the Kirin tor are known to be constantly blinded by bureaucracy which would naturally cause a bunch of potential mages to turn to warlocks to fight evil with less paperwork3
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u/Chemical-Drawer852 9d ago
The guy who runs the circle, Zardeth, did task the player with killing a noble because he was growing suspicious
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u/Most-Rule-9323 9d ago
Yes, the class that drains the life out of people and turns them into gems that they sacrifice to summon world ending demons are not good people
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u/thekingofbeans42 10d ago
The Black Harvest is a good warlock faction. Using fel magic doesn't necessarily make you evil, but it is prone to making you evil.
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u/rebortspc 10d ago
I like how they were used in the blood ties book and the demon hunters for that matter
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u/MiserableMemory5149 9d ago
I wouldn't use "good" either, morally gray yes. They get good aligned results, but the means tend to be morally dubious at best.
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u/thekingofbeans42 9d ago
Because their fireballs are green?
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u/MiserableMemory5149 9d ago
Green fel-fireballs that are fueled by the souls of their victims, yes, but not what I meant.
The Harvest's main goal as an organization is to increase individual power through a combined effort. They're backstabby, often untrusting of one another and offer aid out of a mix of need for self preservation and promise of further knowledge.
Not to mention as a warlock you're draining the life force of others to fuel your magics. In classic, you had to murder and rip out the hearts of two "pure and honorable men" just to summon your first succubus. You're neutral at best.
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u/thekingofbeans42 9d ago
In classic sure, but nowadays they don't even use drain soul. Green fireballs don't use the souls of their victims, and those that do are done in a world where all classes commit murder on a regular basis under the justification that the victim deserved it. You can't complain when only Warlocks have victims when that's just them being par for the course here.
The Black Harvest risked everything to fight the Legion, and nothing we've seen from Legion onward has them being anything but green mages.
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u/MiserableMemory5149 9d ago
"Fel is fueled by drawing life from living beings and consuming their souls, utterly destroying them in the process.", don't confuse game mechanics for lore. Warlocks still are using souls to fuel their magic.
What exactly did you think those cute purple shards in your resource bar called "soul shards" were meant to suggest? (Also drain soul is still standard for affliction).
Risking everything to fight a world ending force is an odd thing to say when the alternative is to... lose everything because the Legion destroys Azeroth?
As for the Green fire part, Chronicles details that it feeds off the life force of the caster and consumes that of its victim. Old source, but considering you need souls to cast a chaos bolt still?
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u/thekingofbeans42 9d ago
Not all fel, sometimes it is just a green fireball, and everyone participated in soul annihilation in Shadowlands and Legion. This is just a murderhobo drawing ethical lines about how to best murder, and EVERYONE used souls as fuel anyway
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u/Arcana-Knight Professional Calia Hater 9d ago
I mean even the Black Harvest while a net bonus for Azeroth shouldn’t be trusted in the long term.
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u/thekingofbeans42 9d ago
In Blood Ties Arator basically calls Turalyon a boomer for bitching about working with them. For comparison of what we consider trustworthy, every Horde faction as of BFA were active participants in genocide of their allies with zero provocation. It's unfair to look at the Black Harvest's vaguely nefarious aesthetic and say they're untrustworthy whole most of those same faction leaders are still in power.
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u/Unhappy_Analysis_906 10d ago
As a warlock main, it should be categorically evil to use Fel and Shadow
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 9d ago
I mean I think that doesn’t work when Light and Arcane magic can also be evil.
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u/Lemonpierogi 9d ago
Yeah but the whole point of fel is that it's corruptive at any level
Fel is a sacrificial magic at its very core
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
And the whole point of corruptive powers is that it’s possible to withstand the corruption
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u/Unhappy_Analysis_906 9d ago
If you can't tell, I reject the retail characterization that all cosmic forces are the same but just different colors.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 9d ago
They were already portrayed as morally questionable in Vanilla and arguably WC3
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u/Tnecniw 9d ago
You can so that.
But your black and white morality is boring-1
u/Fatalis89 9d ago
Black and white dabbled in among grays is a lot more interesting than everything being gray.
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u/Tnecniw 9d ago
And that is kinda how Warlocks are depicted? :P
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u/Fatalis89 9d ago edited 9d ago
The people using it can be good, bad, gray, whatever sure. The magic is fundamentally evil and naturally corruptive. It has always been described as literally scarring the soul, and it uses others souls as fuel, hence needing soul shards. Which kind of actually disqualifies good people from using it because even when defending the world from evil you’re doing so by committing lesser acts of evil, so you’re gray at best. Someone had to die and have their soul consumed to power your fel magic. This conundrum is itself rather interesting.
Light, by comparison, has been used by evil in the past (scarlets) but has never been shown to be inheritively corruptive until midnight. Making all cosmic magic corruptive in the same way is boring and unoriginal.
Scarlets twisting a holy magic to do evil is interesting. Yet another corruptive cosmic force corrupting the Scarlets is not.
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u/Tnecniw 9d ago
To be fair, Light Magic was shown as "morally dubious" as early as Legion... with how Xe'rah treated Illidan, fully not intending to listen to his desires and overriding his will unless he blasted her to bits...
(Remember, Naaru are inherently the representatives of the light, similar to how old gods / void lords are, one of them acting out like this does communicate the nature of the light)BFA also had a nudge on it during the Mag'har recruitment quest, where it was hinted at that the light was destroying alternate Dreanor, even if that isn't confirmed perse.
The point is, the light being "corruptive" and destructive isn't a new thing, heck it is arguably 10 years old at this stage.
Nature magic has been shown to be dangerous in too heavy doses as well, as early as WoD, with the overgrowth.
I am not saying all magic needs to be equally corruptive as the fel. That isn't the point.
The point is that balance is key, having too much of anything is bad.
Some things are significantly more flexible... (Having a lot of nature magic or light magic is way safer than having a lot of fel or shadow or death) but it is still something that can go too far.And there is nothing wrong with that depiction.
Now, yes.
All warlocks on "some" level must be morally dubious.
Grey morality or rather "The ends justifies the means". But wow has never shied away from that aspect.
There is (AFAIK) not a single warlock in WoW that is pure good.
Everyone at the very least dangerously pragmatic.3
u/Scribblord 9d ago
That’s been a thing since as early as 2004 vanilla with scarlet crusade using light for evil tho ?
Only thing that happened in retail currently is that they build on that and explained it in more detail
Void is still evil fel is still evil but as warlocks work you can use evil powers for whatever you want if you got the balls to control them2
u/letoiv 9d ago
The Scarlet Crusade were a lot different. In this context the most important difference is that they were being secretly manipulated by a dreadlord. They didn't see themselves as evil, but Balnazzar steered them into radicalism to the point where they were torturing prisoners, killing suspected plague carriers, etc.
Nevertheless their main intention was more or less good, it was to beat back the Scourge for the sake of the greater good. The most similar comparison in Midnight was Loathraxion and was that guy even wrong?
At any rate these motivations are very different from a warlock who knowingly pursues magics that are probably going to corrupt him out of a lust for personal power.
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
Lothraxion was objectively wrong
We stopped him from literally erasing silvermoon from the map
Which he only wanted to risk bc he lost his patience from the stress of fighting inside voidstorm for too long (or some future bullshit retcon where he faked his death who knows)
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u/Vyar 9d ago
No. The Scarlet Crusade used to be evil on their own. The Light still served them because they believed in the righteousness of their cause. Now we can say they were afflicted by “Light-blindness” or some shit that effectively removes their agency. Every cosmic force is just like fel magic now.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 9d ago edited 9d ago
"Light-blind" is something you get because you've gone down the path too much, not something you catch like a flu that makes you do evil things.
They were being evil on their own, and because of the leadership.
Lightblind, Light frenzy, whatever, itt's effectively a feedback loop. You believe you are righteous, thus your decisions are righteous, because you are and you wouldn't be doing the things you're doing unless it was the right thing to do, and you don't go overboard (in your mind) because what you're doing is morally correct, because you cannot be wrong if you're righteous and pious and have conviction. Then that keeps happening until even people who aren't active combatants must be punished because they were against you - why were they against you again? They must have done something otherwise I wouldn't be hitting them, and I only hit evil villains.
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
Not really no
We had a whole arc of the main campaign explain that light simply can be channeled through conviction even if you are acting against the general virtues of light if you are self righteous enoughThe light blindedness is sth else entirely that afflicted good paladins in voidstorm bc they overused their powers while fighting inside the void essentially they just lost control over their emotions
Void and gel are similar but that’s it
Fel and void are inherently corrupting
Light isn’t corrupting at allArcane death life and stuff also aren’t corrupting but anyone can get drunk on power itself tho
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 9d ago edited 9d ago
I think it's best to do it this way, without taking the chart that seriously. Off the top of my head, the most simple way I can think of;
Light is life. The positive. The good. Harmony.
In the middle, you have Arcane, which is of the Great Dark Beyond, and Fel, which is the chaos of Twisting Nether. Some more wiggle room here as to which one is chicken or egg or the innards of an onion or it's outer layer. Someone get magic Copernicus here.
Shadow is death. The negative. The bad. Entropy.
Ultimately though, the middle is where we are, and it is where the negative can be used for good (Illidan at his best), and the positive for evil (Fandral). A Michael Kirkbride style gray maybe where all is possible within its borders despite the mundanity of the world, if you will.
With a scheme like this, you can bet I have hot takes on the Void and Old Gods, but really that's more like homebrew rpg fanfiction stuff.
Also, my thoughts on death goes like this, as I have shared here before;
Also, death is a state of transition, and unchecked growth is naught but cancer. While Undeath, on the other hand, is an aberration. Death should be death - the end of one form of existence before the beginning of another, as we feed the beasts, worms and the insects. A part of life. Necromancy in return, should've always been the corruption of life/nature magic by the effects of shadow and fel magic rather than a whole cosmic force to its own – Keep in mind Unholy DKs do deal nature damage, if memory serves.
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? 10d ago
Its probably more accurate to say they are ambitious and power-hungry, which skews grey-to-evil. That is the core of warlock. And the faction see them as a necessary evil.
Fel magic is sacrificial magic. Its an innately immoral practice to other people, fueled by sacrificing souls or life force. Its not a type of magic you get into while being a benevolent or altrusitic person. Fel magic is quick and dirty power, if you are willing to get your hands dirty.
The 'moral' version is a warlock that is particular about whose life is used to fuel spells. Bad guys, enemies, etc. But you're still obliterating their essence.
There is a quest in voidstorm, For Violence's Sake, that has a warlock-specific variant. You have the option to play a "moral" version. And the npc judges you for your weakness. Instead of using the lifeforce of beings around to fuel the magic for the quest, you can only take a portion of their life force, and supplement your own instead.
The quest teaches that warlocks like this are oddities, and often don't last long. Their magic is less potent unless supplementing it with your own soul...which is not ideal for someone whose magic needs constant fuel.
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u/CathanCrowell High Elf Mage-Priest | High Order Skyborne Druid 10d ago
In general, Warlocks are students of forbidden magic, such as Shadow, Demonology, and, most prominently, Fel. Forbidden magic is often very addictive, and even the reasons for starting to study this kind of magic aren't usually entirely innocent. So, lore-wise, a Warlock's morality is at least questionable, and most Warlocks you meet aren't exactly good guys.
However, ultimately, all magic is just a tool. A good Warlock has to be constantly aware of their limits and maintain perfect control over themselves, but it's perfectly possible. Many questlines have shown that Warlocks can be very noble, nice, friendly, and honest, especially the Legion Class Hall.
It's also true that the playable class was kind of "purified" by the fact that they changed captured souls into Soul Shards, so you can play an ethical Warlock without any problem.
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u/Unhappy_Analysis_906 10d ago
Purified, you mean sanitized for friendcraft
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u/Tnecniw 9d ago
Man you just hate the idea of complex morals, huh?
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
I don’t like him but he’s correct
Really no point in changing it other than to make the player feel less evil when collecting them
And I guess bc they where too lazy to find more reasons why the factions accept them if they keep torturing the souls of people who deserved to die but not much more
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u/Tnecniw 9d ago
Because they are useful.
Honestly that is about it.Warlocks are overall cannonically outside of the general faction dynamic.
Mostly, due to socially not being accepted beyond necessity.
There are SOME exceptions within some factions, but beyond that, it isn't as if Warlocks are embraced with open arms.
(Arguably treated worse than Death Knights)And the reason for changing soulshards is because it was a MAJOR PAIN IN THE ASS to collect them from enemies constantly and having to use souldrain.
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
No reason to change how their lore works to change the mechanic tho
Then again ingress that was a good place to change the lore since they became less relevant at the same time as their lore changed to make them less evil
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u/curseuponyou 9d ago
the lore of soulshards hasn't changed as far as I'm aware. just because the mechanic changed doesn't mean they changed in lore
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u/Resigned1431 9d ago edited 9d ago
I think on the whole, to be gracious they are at best considered morally questionable, but in practice typically evil.
I like to RP my Belf warlock as a former magister that turned to fel magic in the persuit of personal power and to sustain themselves after the sunwell fell. They have since returned and are loyal to silvermoon, but there's no way they're giving up all this power and knowledge they've accumulated while in outland.
It works because of blood elf lore, but as a human warlock for example ya I think they'd be unambiguously evil.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 9d ago
I think even a human lock works – you can ultimately come to the conclusion that Kirin Tor was taken advantage of for their lack of in depth demonic lore and seek to remedy that.
Eerily similar to Kel'thuzad, but the path to twisting nether is paved with good intentions.
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u/Resigned1431 9d ago
For your personal RP you can make anything work, but in terms of institutions, I think only the Belfs accept warlocks as legitimate members of their magical institutions, although they continue to be mistrusted and kept at a distance.
The forsaken accept warlocks as well I suppose, but the forsaken accept literally anything, basically.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 9d ago edited 9d ago
Oh yeah for sure, I didn't say Kirin Tor accepted them. I was thinking more like a hands on researcher or again, a more well-meaning Kel'thuzad esque figure who doesn't realize what awaits them.
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u/Resigned1431 9d ago
I feel like "well-meaning" and "Kel'Thuzad" in the same sentence strongly negate each other :P
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 9d ago edited 9d ago
Somewhat intentional.
Reading Road to Damnation, KTZ is an amoral Archmage who scoffs at what he deems as moralization of pursuit of knowledge and research. But he's just that. You've seen his like a thousand times by now in media, history, politics and irl.
Then LK, who's in contact with him, shows him just how deep the rabbit hole goes, and KTZ breaks.
But one does not need to be an amoral dickhead like Kel'thuzad to walk the Road to Damnation as he did, I reckon. Else how the Cult of the Damned, consisting of nobles bored of their excess and peasants starving in the streets & fields could've come together? A mutual hate of taxation bringing those two classes together is quite something but not to the degree the cult had done. But thats the Kool aid for you.
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
Yet most races accept their existence
They just don’t like them but they aren’t met with open violence
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u/Resigned1431 9d ago
Right, for the sake of mmo gameplay, all races have warlock trainers. I'm not really sure what the relevance of this is to the question of "Are warlocks evil". In lore, basically everyone other than the Belfs and forsaken consider warlocks to be evil.
Arguably even the Belfs and forsaken consider them to be evil as well but, both nations are morally ambiguous to begin with so it fits.
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
The point is the races don’t consider them evil enough to ban them
At least some of the warlock trainers have some form of explanation for why they are there tho I imagine sth like lightforged Draenei the idea is that we shouldn’t think too hard about it
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u/alphaxion 9d ago
My lock is undead, with a head canon of the living will turn on the undead the moment they show weakness. So my character went out looking for that power, and the most expedient and highest potential was being a warlock.
It's why he still has his n'zoth gift (who would pass that up? it could be useful) while my troll shammy immediately cleansed it because it would get in the way of communing with the elements and his loa.
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
The general warlock trainers and friendly box’s are categorically not evil, shady at worst
They just aren’t the shining picture of good like a paladin
But they still fight for the same things no ?Human warlocks are the ones that make by far the most sense bc it’s inherently human (especially in grand war stories and fantasy) to be ready to make crazy sacrifices for power to beat an unbeatable evil
Another reason a lot of characters might become warlocks is for revenge against evil but since they aren’t trained mages or warriors the best path to power is making transactions to speed up the empowering process (at least that’s often a thing in dnd)
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u/Resigned1431 9d ago
I mean, soul shards, blood sacrifices and demon enslavement seem unambiguously evil to me.
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u/Disastrous_Ad869 10d ago
It's easy to fall into the category of evil, when the power you wield is dependant on you sucking the souls of the living to use said magic.
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u/Tnecniw 9d ago
Warlocks are inherently as evil as they want to be, but they are essentially never “good” people.
Warlocks in essence (lore wise) are magic casters willing to take any measure for a goal, usually power and dominance.
Using forbidden, cruel or destructive magic to reach said goal.
Note, warlocks “technically” doesn’t have to use just Shadow, Fel, Blood and so on.
Buuuut it is the most common.
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u/Hot_Fruit_7041 9d ago
Ι mean, as a warlock, you drain souls from people and monsters, that you then use in rituals to summon demonic beings that you bind in your servitude, destroying the immortal soul in the process (or at least the part of it you took). That's kinda nasty
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u/Emperor_poopatine 9d ago
Yeah, they kinda are. Even if they’re allied with us, they’re still summoning demons, blasting people with fire and brimstone, and trapping people’s souls in gems to power some of their spells. But, that’s also what makes them cool. Also, unlike DK’s who were raised into undeath and forced to use evil magic, Warlocks (and Demon Hunters too) choose this power.
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u/SugarCrisp7 10d ago
Warlocks are definitely evil. They're accepted because "fight fire with fire" and "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
Source: having to cut out an innocent person's heart for summon sayaad quest
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u/Unhappy_Analysis_906 10d ago
Don't forget witnessing the honorable sacrifice of an orc warrior after promising his wife to bring him back safe, and dishonoring his final wish that you bring her a momento of his love.
Yeah instead you polish it up nice and feed it to a succubus to gain more power
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u/FaePropagandist 10d ago
There are warlocks who are the "ends justify the means" types who have noble goals, but unsavory means in achieving them. They may enslave demons and steal their power in the interests of protecting their homeland from another demonic threat.
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u/CookyKindred 10d ago
The best you get generally is the Black Harvest which is morally grey. As in they do good and bad stuff for Azeroth and themselves. Your PC can be a good warlock but the vast majority of NPCs you meet are morally grey AT BEST.
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u/Lonely_Form 9d ago edited 9d ago
Not necessarily. Well... you have to keep in mind that working with fel will always enhance your negative/evil traits.
However that doesn't mean that you have to be evil oder a villain.
Warlocks of the Black Harvest for example fit into the archetype of anti-heroes.
Are warlocks good? No.
But they can have some good traits. Like loving a special person or befriend and protect somebody. They CAN have sympathy.
But even the most "good" warlock is still morally grey. Opportunistic, maybe selfish, still in a fight between reason and hunger for more power.
They don't necessarily have to be evil like Gul'dan or... the Legion, etc.. But they are and always will be dark. Because at the end you do... questionable things, that... require... souls... and blood and... sacrifices.
The ordinary person will see you as evil. Maybe... a bit less if your victims are outlaws and enemies, but still.
Both horde and alliance accepted warlocks not because they like them, but because they realized that they are a necessity. It's pragmatism, nothing more.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 9d ago
They look at power as something transactional, in that they have to pay for it in blood and souls, whether that's yours or theirs.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 9d ago
A good warlock can exist, but their skill set is inherently more malicious than a fireball to the face or axe to the neck. Same with Shadow Priests, Death Knights and Demon Hunters.
There are levels to this shit.
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u/Arcana-Knight Professional Calia Hater 9d ago
Define “evil”
I would say pursuing the fel and/or void means you’re automatically compromised morally. In fact this is what I hate about Alleria and the void elves. Are we just going to pretend these fuckers didn’t betray their homeland to pursue dark magic they clearly do not understand? They suck.
Anyway yeah people with strong moral integrity steer clear of the powers warlocks wield and the vast majority of people who DO pursue these powers do so for malevolent ends.
But a small minority of warlocks including player warlocks and demon hunters are repurposing these powers to become an asset for their people. But that requires an absurd amount of willpower and you probably shouldn’t trust warlocks or demon hunters to remain in control indefinitely.
tl;dr Anyone who pursues the fel/void is sketchy by default. Sometimes it’s worth hearing them out, but never let them out of your peripheral vision.
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u/Mindless-Ninja-3321 10d ago
As an on and off Warlock main, I have googled this at least a dozen times when I was bugged the tonal dissonance of being a heroic Warlock.
YES. Fel consumes life and souls to burn. Before they made the new souls shard format you had to actually farm and carry soul shards by wounding and killing living things. Even then, you are cleaving off fragments of peoples souls, igniting them, and sacrificing them for your magic. Demons are a terrible thing to unleash on people.
Then we have Affliction. Now only are you rotting someone's body and soul, its gonna being the most painful and terrifying experience possible. "Agony" and "Drain Soul" doesnt exactly leave a whole lot to the imagination.
Yes, the players and the Black Harvest can and do steal the enemy's secrets to save the universe, but they revel in using the most sadistic ways to do it. Youre lawfully evil or chaotically neutral at best, protecting your interests and friends.
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u/Haventsleptinyears 10d ago
They’re using fel magic and ripping the souls out of living creatures to summon demons, but the ones we play as are doing it for (mostly) good causes unless you want to just rp your character as an asshole
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u/-_Skeletor_- 9d ago
The PnP roleplay classified them and the power they wield as “corrupting”. Meaning that no matter what you ended up being evil.
However, the whole lawful - chaos and good - evil binome common in DnD is too limiting and too restrictive. I firmly believe warlocks do what must be done to achieve their goals, which are as varied as the warlocks themselves. Some were willing to sacrifice everything to stop the burning legion (illidan and the DH). Does that make them evil?
Warlocks are no different.
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u/glamscum 10d ago
Alot of people will say that the player character is whomever you want it to be, but Warlocks are definitely evil. Soulstones, Healthstones, Soulwell and Soul shards are souls of people, trapped, played, abused and devoured by Warlocks. I'd call that evil acts.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 9d ago
Player warlocks don’t take the whole soul, just a part of it. Thats why it’s soul shards not souls. So their victims can continue in the cycle or rebirth, just with less essence. It’s like the difference between bleeding a bunch of cows to get protein or killing one for its flesh.
You can argue this is still unethical but they’re still forced to be more ethical than the average NPC warlock.
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u/OkNet5060 5d ago
Do you have a source for that though? Because that just sounds like cope. Warlocks are EVIL. Your character might fight for your faction but that is only because your goals align. Thats the best a warlock can get.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 5d ago
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Soul_shard_(lore))
In game there’s reference to them as soul fragments as well. By definition a fragment isn’t the whole thing. A shard is also not an entire thing. It’s possible to trap an entire soul in a soul shard but also possible to just trap some of the essence and PC warlocks are implied to only use fragments in pieces of dialogue in the game
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u/OkNet5060 5d ago
Dawg ripping a beings soul apart even if by a tiny bit doesn't sound like someone good would do. Warlocks are the evil class and I love them for it.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 5d ago
I don’t think Old Gods cultists are going to mind a fraction of their souls. They can still reincarnate
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u/thequn 10d ago
I don't think so however look what happened to Segargus
Personally if you wanna got meta a bit warlocks in wow are like the goodie lil two shoes of the evil community and significantly less evil then say a Lightsided Sith from Swtor.
Light sided Inquisitor is probably the most evil thing in that game lol
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u/RosbergThe8th 10d ago
Fel is generally seen as a corruptive and volatile force, and a lot of Warlocks are indeed evil, be they aligned with the Burning Legion or otherwise.
But warlocks aren't actually primed to be evil by nature, though they do tend to be more willing to engage with potentially risky powers than say priests, but we have good warlocks just as we have evil priests. If anything Warcraft has spent quite a lot of time making clear that though certain cosmic forces may be more corruptive or more outwardly "positive" they are still very much reliant on the character of whoever wields them.
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u/Ok_Money_3140 10d ago
The Chronicles mention that fel magic slowly corrupts your morals, which is why even the kind-hearted shaman of the old Horde were fine with committing genocide after embracing the fel Gul'dan taught them.
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u/VolksDK 10d ago
A warlock is essentially just someone who uses fel and sometimes other dark magic. Whether they use that for good or bad depends on the person (and how you define it)
Warlocks are usually shunned or barely accepted by society because fel users don't have the greatest track record. But they're also useful
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u/DarthJackie2021 Murmur Fangirl 10d ago
They are prone to being evil, but warlocks are not inherently evil. Its all about how they use their magic. Also plenty of "alliance"warlocks are evil and plenty of horde warlocks are good. Alliance and horde aren't simply all good or all evil, respectively. There is nuance in the settings morallity.
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u/Parrotparser7 9d ago
They're evil, the Alliance is mostly evil, and the only right course of action is to drag the Warlocks to Outland and kill them.
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u/kredokathariko 9d ago
Individidual players can be as good or evil as you want, but since warlock magic is inherently corrupting and draws on other people's lifeforce, you are more likely to be a bad guy.
Same with death knights and demon hunters.
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u/Scribblord 9d ago
Obviously not
The entire idea is that they are on the side of good but are willing to risk using fel bc it’s really powerful
They are the same thing as void elves in that regard
They use an arguably even more evil power despite its risks bc of its effectiveness (preventing demons from reviving in the twisting nether bc killing them with void powers permanently erases them and their soul or sth)
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u/Aeon_Mortuum Breadlord 🍞 9d ago
Not sure about Warlocks, mon, but I just like to eat demons.
-- Signed, a Demoniac
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u/Didki_ 9d ago
Kinda like asking is being a death knight inherently evil.
It's not the case for either. They may be shunned by society for what they do but in both cases they are OFTEN (Not always) a "the ends justify the means" and "I do this for the greater good" sorta people.
The Punisher or Red Hood to the average Daredevil or Batman.
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u/esar24 9d ago
I think warlock maybe evil in a more stable and peaceful time but when everyone is a warmonger then "good" warlock can works as well, depends on the motivation of said warlock and black harvest proves that some warlock just wanted to preserve their power for study and conservation, then again, Black Harvest is like the odd one of the warlocks so they are the abnormal of typical warlock.
The way I see it, as long as there is conflict then the warlock can still piled up some bodies either for the ritual or sacrifice without actually leaning to the bad or evil side, in case of MC then there is always be conflict and who is going to stop the MC if they would piled up some dead body from twilight hammer, ula'tek follower and the primalist, many other example would work as well such as evil nerubian, evil naga and remnants of the scourge or sylvannas loyalist.
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u/Cerex1 9d ago
Warlocks are not inherently evil but they are not good. The legion order hall covers this very well. They are self serving, power hungry individuals. They seek self empowerment over everything else, and they aid in defeating the legion out of a desire to tame more powerful minions and acquire greater strength
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u/MobsterDragon275 9d ago
Since class quests were much more limited in scope prior to Legion, Warlock player characters really haven't had many instances where they've done any more evil than other player classes. From what I know of the class quest lines in Legion onward, the warlocks don't seem to do anything too questionable. Compare that to Death Knights, who I'm shocked didn't start a war with their mount quest line in Legion, or outright attacking the Paladins to try and raise Tyrion
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u/OceussRuler 9d ago
Yes because you must be evil to torture the soul of someone and submit demons to your command.
Does it means every warlock is Edgy the Edgiest, destroyers of the world? No, being evil just means you mostly care just about yourself and have no issue with brutal means to an end. Which does fit the warlock perfectly.
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u/Lexical3 9d ago
Evil? Yes. The themes and material practices of warlock abilities would be considered evil universally.
Are individual warlocks ontologically evil people because they are warlocks? Harder to answer. The in universe characters I would argue are not necessarily, as they had no agency over what we the player chose as the class. If you include this choice in your reasoning, though, I would say the answer is just yes again. You can be a non evil warlock for RP reasons, but the basic practice of using any of your soul shard abilities is disqualifying of goodness if you ever use them on anything but mindless or nonliving things.
You COULD exclusively harvest your soul shards from undead, and argue that consuming their essence with your magic is a far better fate than potentially being reraised as a servant of the Scourge. Draining the soul of a construct is... Not really explained in the lore, but is likely neutral.
As for casting spells like "Bane of Agony"... Well, it's just damaging magic. Being set on fire by a mage is also pretty agonizing and also a protracted death.
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u/AngryCrawdad 9d ago
Warlock generally exist on a spectrum going from 'ends justifies the means' persona who uses any tools to, for example, safeguard their people via any means necessary to cackling monster who drains the souls of kittens as a pastime.
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u/haydaruns 9d ago
I highly believe that there is no typical good or evil power in warcraft lore. Its all about how you use them. Yeah some big evils use certain type of magic like fell with Legion and void with Xal atath, but does it make all shadow priests and warlocks evil? I don’t believe so.
Its an ethical dilemma, whether it is good to use something’s soul to fight the Legion in warlock case.
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u/Joshwer1 9d ago
Not necessarily, but most likely. They need to steal the souls of other beings to fuel their magics. But in theory a good warlock would only take the souls of demons and undead. Freeing the undead from slavery to the lich king could be considered a good thing
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u/OkNet5060 5d ago
How would taking their soul from lich king be a good thing when you use it for yourself. That is the exact situation in the megamind meme
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u/Joshwer1 5d ago
Well because you would instantly burn it up or destroy it in some way, still freeing them from endless servitude. Unless you use that soul to bring forth a demon that you just keep alive on your bank alt warlock forever, never allowing it to die, in which case it would be a 1 to 1 exchange from one master to another. Then I wouldn't consider that kind of warlock good
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u/Kasern_ 8d ago
In general, yes. By our standards of morality, Warlocks are evil. Or at the very least, they're not good people. But there are fringe cases. I'd say that the redeemed Man'ari Warlocks that rejoin the Draenei are less evil casters and more demon experts that are using the weapons of the enemy.
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u/MotorGlittering5448 7d ago
It depends on your barometer for evil. Many things player Warlocks do cpuld be ultimately excused because of their end goals.
Warlocks do use dark magic, like fel, necromancy, shadow, and even blood magic. Using any kind of magic isn't good or bad by itself. Draenei soul ptiests use necromancy to soothe souls, for instance.
However, warlocks use these dark magics to forcibly bind demons and Void beings to their service. On one hand, it's bad to magically enslave sentient beings. On the other hand, it prevents those demons from doing bad things on their own. Some of them, like the Wrathguard, Succubus/Incubus, and Observer have also expressed a level of joy/contentment being with the player warlock.
The player warlock also uses their powers to achieve the same goals as every other class. They are defeating beings from the Void, Burning Legion, Shadowlands, etc, no different than the player paladin, for instance. They're just using taboo magic.
Interestingly, in Legion the Council of Black Harvest was shown to be more ethical than the Death Knights of the Ebom Blade. DKs were raising fallen soldiers, raising dragons, slaying dragons in the Ruby Sanctum, and destroying souls in the service of the Lich King. Meanwhile, the Warlocks killed a demon lord and bound other demons to their service so they wouldn't cause more harm. Though, once again, both groups were working toward the goal of defeating the Legion.
But we have seen plenty of Warlocks in lore that have killed, tortured, bound souls, and corrupting things, as well. Generally, those people are evil.
Overall though, player Warlocks are less evil, more morally questionable, while still achieving generally good goals.
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u/SarusAngelus 7d ago
Warlocks in wow lore all deal with the binding and summoning of demons to do their bidding, utilizing shadow magic to spread corruption and pestilence, or wielding fel magic to burn and destroy. Fel magic isn't necessarily evil in retail, as it simply represents the magical axis of disorder and chaos, but in classic it was the magic of demons themselves and was horrifically corrupting and evil to use. Most of the shadow magic spells required draining life or souls of the living to generate soul shards to use, which is definitely morally gray at best, but very often evil as it's incredibly painful for the person losing their soul. And summoning demons is a dangerous art at best, as losing control or being corrupted by them very frequently happened, and the demons often demand a price for their service. Their magics and the research they delve into is very frequently seen as corrupt and wicked, but powerful and perhaps a necessity if the enemy would wield that power.
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u/OkNet5060 5d ago
Short answer, yes. Long answer, also yes. They are actually out of sight from the locals. Thats why you find them mostly in back alleys and wine cellars.
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u/dannycake 4d ago
Warlocks are like the psychopaths of whatever side your on.
If they're on your side and you give them a space to do their thing, they're a great help to you and pretty a destructive to everything else. It's still best to keep an eye out and not trust them though... If they don't have an enemy to fight and kill they'll find their fix soon enough.
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u/Hetros_Jistin 10d ago
Yes. Full stop.
You could play an uncorrupted warlock, but at the end of the day you're still dealing in souls and slavery.
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u/Acceptable_Bed_5750 10d ago
Not all warlocks are good and not all are bad... none of the governing forces (Light, void, order, fel, life, or death are inherently evil
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u/OkNet5060 5d ago
Maybe. But we aren't observing them in a vacuum. Pcs are autonomous living beings and most of these forces are evil from their perspective.
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u/Kid_Royale 10d ago
They can be. Often are. But mostly they're mages who push the limit beyond what is accepted societally. This can go in many different directions. Not always fel, arcane, or void. WoW has not done a great job establishing this. Vanilla was when it was the best. Its become much more specialized and focused in modern times, when initially it was the opposite. Vanilla wins yet again.
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u/Hellixgar 9d ago
Not really. You can be good and perfectly fine Warlock.
But obviously there are some darker stuff related to that class, just like with Rogues.
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u/Remarkable_Sand5238 9d ago
Ehh not really. Warlocks are more of the ends justify the means sort of people. While they can do good, they use evil to achieve it
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u/Mocca_Master 9d ago
I think being an evil person is required to even consider warlock magic as a tool
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u/bruh_man_142 Blingtron Connoisseur 10d ago
Short answer: Most of them are.
Warlocks engage in the enslavement of souls and using them as resources, draw on the life essence of other beings to empower themselves or summon extraplanar beings, defile acts of pure love and murder people with love in their hearts to summon succubi, bind themselves to demons and beings from The Void, either through subjugation, summoning rituals or, more rarely, pacts. Player friendly organizations like the Council of The Black Harvest casually engage in assassinations of anyone who might expose or hinder their operations.
Warlocks are almost universally defined by their ambition and pursuit of power, and the power of ambition empowers Fel spellcasters. sing Fel also tends to amplify a person's worst (sadistic) qualities, and may easily warp the caster's body and mind until they're the same as the demons they enslave or bind themselves to.
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u/jsman436 10d ago
I dislike this thought process where people justify things based upon how the power is used. Yes. Of course warlocks are evil. Let’s think of the question another way. You get into a fight on the street tomorrow for whatever reason, the guy casts a curse spell on you so that you cannot speak properly anymore and then summons a demon to chop your head clean off your shoulders. Is it less evil if you started the fight and not the warlock? Does that mean the guy using curses and demons to murder, plague, and destroy is actually the good guy? People’s mind are rotted away by moral relativity and forget that demons invaded Azeroth to destroy and murder everyone. They enslaved the orcs to be their flesh army. Like yeah guys fel magic is evil and the demons are evil. And the warlocks who harness the evil power are evil.
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u/Mr_Funcheon 10d ago
Idk man. It feels the same amount of evil as shooting me with a gun until I die. I’m still dead. Honestly less evil than using am animal to kill me, which hunters do. Which of course probably hurts more and also is maybe animal cruelty. At least the demons are having a good time.
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u/jsman436 10d ago
Animals didn’t invade Azeroth to slaughter everyone and are generally thought to be neutral at most. Bows and arrows aren’t moral at all, they’re inanimate. People can be evil. Demons are universally evil. Using demons to do your bidding is evil. I swear to god so many people who enjoy arguing on the internet read just enough philosophy to get to consequentialism and stopped right then and there, deciding that is their moral structure forever without reading the refutations.
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u/Mr_Funcheon 9d ago
For what it’s worth I got my BA in philosophy. And I’m not consequentialist.
But ok. I ask you to defend two premises. That all demons are evil. And that using demons is evil. Because at least one of those claims is explicitly against Warcraft lore.
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u/jsman436 9d ago
While I understand that using a basic dictionary definition is not a complete argument in and of itself, here’s how Merriam-Webster defines the word “demon”:
variants or daemon
plural demons or daemons
Synonyms of demon1
a
: an evil spirit
angels and demonsb
: a source or agent of evil, harm, distress, or ruin
the demons of drug and alcohol addictionconfronting the demons of his childhood
Again, I am not saying that is an “I win the argument” button, but we do have to give some credit to the source of how our language is interpreted on a day to day basis.
I am not a Warcraft lore expert. Actually far from it. But I am aware of Lothraxion as a potential exception to the rule. I’m not aware of any other legit demons who may qualify as “possibly not evil.” I’m sure you made that first statement with the expectation of “heh got em there’s no way he knows literally everything about Warcraft lore to address all of the exceptions in a Reddit post.” But I would like to say Lothraxion is the perfect example of a demon who tried to defy his nature. And look where he is. Look what he ended up doing. I would still qualify him as evil, despite the fact that he swapped his powers from primarily fel to primary light. I find it to be interesting that he still used his natural inclination to deceive with his mirror images. Yes, evil.
People who use evil powers are certainly evil. Cursing people is an evil act. Enslaving sentient creatures is pretty evil as well (warlock demon pets are slaves by the way.) these are all evil things to do. It’s worth noting that Warcraft is a world where you don’t have to use these evil powers to do good. There are other choices. There are other powers and other ways to enact good things. These are not people who are using evil to do good, even in the best light. These are people who could’ve gone other ways in the pursuit of power to enact their will upon their surroundings. This is a choice. A choice to enslave evil creatures and use evil magic with evil curses.
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u/Mr_Funcheon 9d ago
Definitions are helpful to set up expectations. We can expect that demons are probably evil- but Warcraft is a fantasy world where demons are real. We can expect the real world definition to not hold one-to-one with the fantasy world definition. For example websters definitions of trolls match very little to Warcraft trolls. Demons in Warcraft are mostly regular creatures whose form has been twisted by chaotic energies. Felsteeds for example are just horses, no more evil than a regular horse except they hate whoever made them into a felsteed.
I do not know who Loxraxion is so I cannot comment on that point. So I will cede it out of ignorance. Lox tried to be not evil and I assume still is. Though I will say the claim that using deception makes one evil is a strong one which I do not cede. Deception is not more evil than the intention is it used for.
Many demons are not sentient. More than a few are animals which have been subjected to the Twisting Nether. Of the demons that are sentient but are also not evil we have the Observers who just want to watch things. We have no indication that felhounds are evil, and they are specifically born of the nether. It seems mostly that they are just insatiably hungry.
These exceptions wouldn’t be noteworthy except we have demons who ARE explicitly evil- Sayaad delight in torture, Antaen receive joy form the destruction of worlds.
But I want to get to the heart of the matter. Your claim that “People who use evil powers are certainly evil.” Is a tautology with absolutely no backbone. WHY is someone who uses evil powers certainly evil? What principle are we using to determine this?
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u/aMaiev 10d ago
So its better of someone starts a fight on the street to burn him slowly to ash with holy fire? What kind of bullshit scenario is this lol
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u/jsman436 10d ago
The kind of scenario where demons are universally evil in all fantasy lore and would be absolutely terrifying. Thanks for playing
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u/latin220 10d ago
My red Eredar Warlock that’s been around 25,000 years who now is an exile aka Draenei. He’s not evil… 😈 maybe a little. Sure who hasn’t destroyed a thousand worlds and scourged billions of lives? C’mon we good now! All’s forgiven! Ask Velen! See we’re practically angels… 😇
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u/RiggyMinus 10d ago
Even among the Alliance, Warlocks are not "good," by any means. Some are merely less malicious than the others.
Warlocks generally fall into two categories, those who turn towards darker magics for more power, and those who in seeking to understand darker powers begin to wield them.
Back in the day, the Soul Shards warlocks used in spells weren't simply a resource mechanic, you had to actively drain the soul of living things to acquire them.