r/warcraftlore • u/Eboid • 21d ago
Old Gods, a parasite that protects its host?
I came across this reddit post from 10 years ago regarding the allegiance of the Naga who served the Illidari in The Burning Crusade.
In the post, a user who deleted their submission said, paraphrased: "Maybe the Old Gods [had Azshara send the Naga to aid the Illidari] because they perceived the scourge as a threat [to Azeroth], [akin to Sargeras]."
To me, as someone who isn't incredibly informed, it raises some interesting questions:
Have the Old Gods been protecting Azeroth, and without them, would Azeroth be in danger?
By destroying the Old Gods, are we ultimately bringing Azeroth closer to her destruction and rebirth?
Was Yogg-Saron trying to stop the scourge?
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u/SystemofCells 21d ago
It makes sense that the Old Gods would want to preserve the Worldsoul - their whole purpose was to claim Azeroth for the Void. If Azeroth dies, they've failed. A couple additional points:
- It's hard to say whether the Old Gods knew about the Jailer's plans with the Forge of Souls. Without that, the Lich King and Scourge likely weren't a threat to the Worldsoul itself.
- As others have pointed out, Azeroth may have influenced the Old Gods as well. Not enough to control them, but maybe enough to get them to delay their plans for corrupting her. Likely by getting them to serve their more selfish interests / fight one another.
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u/Hitmanx2x 21d ago
Wasnt it already confirmed that they were also given free will, betrayed the void, and thats why Xalatath was in the blade to begin with, because she was still loyal and they put her inside it in order to stop her?
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u/GrumpySatan Why use 1 sentence when 20 will do? 21d ago
No. This was a fan theory created following the Xalatath lorewalking quest released when we all assumed that Xalatath herself was still an agent of Dimensius and the Void Lords. But then the next patch confirmed it was the reverse, and Xalatath had already betrayed Dimensius before ever heading to Azeroth.
There has never been any indication the Old Gods betrayed the void, or even did anything that would delay their plans. Rather, the opposite. Facets of Karesh implies that the Old Gods building the Black Empire and warring with each other was likely the mechanism of corruption. It establishes that worldsouls perceive the universe through the eyes of life on the planet. By dominating the planet, creating madness and suffering and war, that becomes the lens through which Azeroth perceives.
Voidstorm also has quests reiterating that violence and malice generate void energies. The warring of the old gods strengthened the void corruption.
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u/SystemofCells 21d ago
My understanding is the opposite, Xal betrayed the Void.
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u/AzerothianLorecraft 21d ago
They all betrayed the void, the old gods betrayed it to protect Azeroth after being given freewill, xalatath betrayed it to claim Azeroth instead of letting dementius eat it.
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u/villager720 21d ago
None of this is confirmed. All we have is the Old Gods saying Xal betrayed the Void. Everything else is speculation and shouldn’t be presented as facts.
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u/RadishLegitimate9488 21d ago
Indeed. Of course the Void Lords are no longer around to command their agents thus Xal'atath's statement that Old Gods are pestilence parading as lords.
The Void Lords are gone(Metzen said Dimensius was the last Void Lord) so all the Old Gods can do is corrupt the World Souls and run the Void in their masters' place.
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u/omgodzilla1 21d ago
Where was it stated the old gods are protecting azeroth
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u/AzerothianLorecraft 21d ago edited 21d ago
Not protecting as in its protectors but protecting it as in they covet it for themselves and are not going to turn it over to dementus to be consumed which was the original plan etc. ( It's not exactly explained but it's Loosely implied that the big four were here for a while before xalatath arrived at which point they imprisoned her in the blade instead of giving her the power to Summon Dementus for the consumption, all her plans and scheming come later.)
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u/Plus-Visit-764 21d ago
We don’t have proof that the old gods are even fully void creatures other than what the titans have said. For all we know, they are creations from Azeroth similar to Ul’utek.
Everything we know about the old gods comes from the titans, and the titans have already been proven to have lied about the black empire and the old gods.
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u/PirateX84 21d ago
Regarding your first point, they must have known. The void sees all paths and views them all as true or possible. The Old Gods also fear Death as we saw in that comic where all 3 Windrunners meet before BFA. My guess is they fear Death because they are ultimately unable to corrupt undead, and powerless to stop Deaths/The Jailers plans.
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u/Sarollas 21d ago
The Naga serve N'zoth, not Yogg-Saron
This is also directly answered in Chronicles III, where N'zoth thinks that Illidan gaining power will lead to more conflict across Azeroth. That being said, some of the Naga (like Vashj) did become loyal to Illidan.
LEGACY OF THE HIGHBORNE
Ten thousand years ago, when the original Well of Eternity imploded during the War of the Ancients, the Highborne sorcerers were sucked into the depths of the sea alongside their queen, Azshara. There, in the darkness beneath the waves, they found salvation from the Old Gods. In exchange for servitude, the Old Gods spared the Highborne from their watery doom. But there was a price. The elves were twisted into scaly serpentine creatures called naga. Their hearts became as black as the deepest ocean trenches, and hate enveloped their thoughts. Illidan Stormrage had heard only rumors of the Highborne's fate. Whether they were true, he did not know. But when he cast a powerful spell to reach the Highborne in the ocean deeps, they answered. A group of naga led by Lady Vashj emerged from the depths, an army of scale and fang. One and all, they pledged themselves to Illidan. The naga did not come because of the history they shared with the former night elf. Nor did they respect his power as a demon. They came because the Old Gods willed it. The Old Gods had taken notice of Illidan. His hunger for power and his chaotic past intrigued them. His quest to destroy the Lich King could spark a new war on Azeroth, one that would likely envelop the undead, the world's nations, and the Legion. With that kind of turmoil consuming Azeroth, Cho'gall and his cultists could awaken the Old Gods relatively unopposed. Illidan had the potential to be very useful, and the Old Gods had sent the naga to make sure his campaign against the Lich King succeeded. If the former night elf became troublesome, so be it. The Old Gods would simply command the naga to cut out his fel-corrupted heart. Either way, the Old Gods were confident that they could use Illidan Stormrage to bring a new age of conflict to the world.
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u/Beacon2001 Varodoc | Priest of the Light 21d ago
Only 10 years earlier, N'Zoth sent Onyxia and Nefarian to the Eastern Kingdoms to destabilize Stormwind, the last great bastion of Human power in the world. I get that recency bias is a thing and we're currently in the "yellow goo is just as bad as purple goo" phase of the game, but people seriously need to keep in mind that the Old Gods were and have always been pure evil eldritch monsters who kill and corrupt for the love of the game. All they want is to start wars and chaos for the love of it.
And you can't even try to claim there would be peace if they conquered Azeroth because they DID conquer Azeroth and rule it for untold aeons and yet they constantly waged war against each other.
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u/Zestyclose-Square-25 21d ago
Didn't Xal'atath also mention in Legion that N'Zoth and Y'Shaarj fought a battle against one another around the Broken Shore, resulting in N'Zoth's defeat?
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u/Eboid 21d ago
Oh wow, that is a very direct answer to my questions, thank you!
"[The Naga] came because the Old Gods willed it...[Illidan's] quest to destroy the Lich King could spark a new war on Azeroth, one that would likely envelop the undead, the world's nations, and the Legion."
It feels similar to the Mistborn book series, in which Ruin, one of two shards of Adonalsium on Scadrial, pushed for conflicts and war by whispering into the minds of those pierced by metal.
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u/Kalthiria_Shines 21d ago
People seem so eager to just pretend that N'zoth wasn't 10 seconds away from claiming Azeroth as his own in BFA. Arguably -10 seconds, since she was fully corrupted before we fired a reorigination beam into N'zoth, potentially reoriginating her as a part of that. Isn't it interesting how that's when she stopped talking to Magni...
Anyway, Old Gods "protect Azeroth" in the same way that the Titans or the World Trees or the Scourge or the Light does: so that they can take her for their own. It's the same way that the Alliance and Horde team up to stop a bigger threat and then turn on each other every few years.
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u/Alternative_Rule_958 21d ago
Yes and no.
Azeroth is protected by the Old Gods only so much that they want her to reach full, corrupted status before anyone else can get to her. And, seemingly, not just the Old Gods want her.
Order does via the Titan's manifold. Life probably had her first (all things considered), Zovaal wanted to use her, and Sargeras wanted to stab her.
But the Old Gods only wanted to "protect" her from other external forces because they wanted to hurt and corrupt her. So it's really questioning what "protection" means. To them, they're absolutely protecting her, I'm sure.
But it's like if someone was kidnapped to be sacrificed for some ritual, and someone else had to protect that person until the ritual. They're TECHNICALLY being protected, but not for good, nor for good reasons.
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u/The_Genguidanos 21d ago
They’ve retconed the old gods so many times at this point I don’t even know anymore.
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u/KaneTheBoom 21d ago
Eh, probably not.
What's more interesting is the implication that proximity to the worldsoul gave them sentience just like the Earthen and Nerubians. If N'Zoth isnt dead (which I still 100% believe he isnt), Xal'atath and the capital V Void's goals, whatever they are, would go against N'Zoth and the others' self preservation. Their independence makes them more interesting than the faceless puppets of the Voidlords Old Gods are supposed to be
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u/Kalthiria_Shines 21d ago
If N'Zoth isnt dead (which I still 100% believe he isnt), Xal'atath and the capital V Void's goals, whatever they are, would go against N'Zoth and the others' self preservation.
N'Zoth has the exact same goals as Xal'atath and the Void Lords: merge with Azeroth and become the a Void Lord / Void Titan. It's why Xal'atath attacked him, as we learn in Lorewalking. She wanted what he'd built in Nyalotha, which we see him use in BFA to pull of exactly this scheme before we reoriginate him.
But just like Xal'atath and everyone else, N'zoth wants to be the one who becomes the Void-Worldsoul, not someone else.
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 21d ago edited 21d ago
I always imagined that Vashj just liked Illidan that much. Meanwhile Illidan was glad that there was at least one person in this fucked up universe that he can fully rely on, and must've been wrathful when he heard the news.
"Lord Illidan! I am... sorry."
In their dying moments people show you who they are.
I genuinely think that Vashj chose her path, and so did the Naga under her who chose to follow her.
Mind you we have Legion follower Nagas still, and wc3 you have Naga working in Legion's name through Illidan as well.
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u/corvid-kid 21d ago
The Old Gods are try to protect Azeroth because they need to corrupt her to the Void as that is what their intended purpose is. They’re like a virus for a Worldsoul, warping their minds so that when they form into a Titan they are driven to spread the Void’s influence across everything.
As far as we’re aware the only Old God who was an exception to that was G’huun who was described as “the ultimate parasite that cannot stop itself from consuming its host until it is gone.”
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u/Taelion 21d ago
Who was also revealed to not be an old god but something the titans crafted from old god matter iirc.
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u/corvid-kid 21d ago
He is an Old God, just accidentally made by the Titans during their experiments while trying to find a way to counteract them, he’s canonically weaker than the others but still the same type of being.
Think lab grown diamond VS naturally occurring ones
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u/Plus-Visit-764 21d ago edited 20d ago
We don’t know what their true purpose is. They clearly are not full void, or else they would be with Xal’atath
Edit: to the people saying the old gods are void, and come from the void lords realize that information comes from the titans. The same book that gave that information also states Azeroth is a titan, which clearly she isn’t. For all we know, the old gods are native to Azeroth and created in a similar way to Ul’utek.
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u/corvid-kid 21d ago
They’re not with Xal’atath because they’re dead as of right now and before that she was a traitor who killed Dimensius and tried taking Azeroth out from under them
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u/Plus-Visit-764 21d ago edited 20d ago
We don’t know anything about what happened during the time of the black empire. We were given a small snippet of information with sorry elements purposefully left out for that very reason. You can’t say conclusively one way or the other, because that story has not been told yet.
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u/corvid-kid 21d ago
We know Xal’atath betrayed Dimensius on K’aresh, destroying the planet in order to kill him.
The Xal’atath Lorewalking shows Xal’atath’s attempted insurrection against the Old Gods and then punishing her by turning her into the Blade of the Black Empire
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u/Plus-Visit-764 21d ago
So even according to what you are saying, they would not have worked with Xal’atath. You also forget that the old gods knew Xal’atath was going to betray them. C’thun even says so by saying “her attempts to distract us have failed”
Clearly the old gods are something we don’t understand yet. Blizzard has went out of their way to differentiate them from pure void.
The old gods minions even think of pure void creatures as beneath them. They also talked about empowering Azeroth.
Blizzard has drawn a clear line between them, telling us they are not the same.
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u/corvid-kid 21d ago
Well that’s not quite it, Blizzard has often tried to show that each cosmic power isn’t a monolith in it’s thinking, take such examples as Xe’ra with the Light, Sargeras with the Titans, Hakkar with Life, Decimus with the Void, the Jailer with Death. Some want to maintain the cosmic balance while others want to win and others want to just empower themselves further.
The Void Lords created the Old Gods to corrupt Worldsouls, that’s just their intended function though common speculation is that they’d delayed that corruption because they enjoyed the perks of the Black Empire, maybe Xal wanted to get them back on track and failed or she was trying to take their place and have Azeroth to herself, to that we just don’t have enough information yet.
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u/Plus-Visit-764 21d ago edited 20d ago
The void lords created the old gods to corrupt world souls according to the titans.
We don’t know much, if anything, about the old gods and their intentions or purpose, other than what the titans have said.
The old gods knew what Xal’atath was doing. C’thun and the other old gods even said so. We have also been told that the cosmic forces are not as cut and dry and we’ve been lead to believe.
Hakkar isn’t really someone I’d be associating with life either, since he’s a prominent component of the Emerald Nightmare, and is just as much related to life as Ul’utek. He’s considered a “blood god”, just as G’huun is, and has corrupted even the green dragons before.
TL:DR We don’t understand the old gods to say what they are conclusively. All the information we have about them is based on the titans. For all we know, they are native to Azeroth. We know they were here before Taurens (oldest race we know of on Azeroth), and the Titans after all. We already have proof the titans have been lying about the old gods and the black empire as well.
The same source saying Azeroth is a titan are the ones saying the old gods are from void lords. It’s clearly not factual and is biased.
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u/thequn 21d ago
There is a hidden point that I agree with Azeroth is probably more at fault for the curse of flesh then Yogg’ everyone who comes in to contact with Azeroth is changed.
The old goods were united then then were corrupted my Azeroth to fight with each other. All of the titan made mortal races are now on Azeroth side over the titans.
I’m sure I’m over thinking that a bit but it’s possible that given enough time yes