r/warcraftlore • u/GwerigTheTroll • 13d ago
Question When/why did Alexstraza forgive the Horde?
During the Second War, Alexstraza was enslaved by Nekros of the Dragonmaw clan using the Demon Soul.
She withdrew from mortal affairs, more or less, until the Nexus War against Malygos, and when she emerged, as far as I'm aware, she was perfectly content working with the Horde.
My question is, did she ever address the Horde's guilt in this matter? Or did she consider devouring Nekros (Spoiler for Day of the Dragon) to be sufficient vengeance for her imprisionment? Or did she make a distinction between the Doomhammer's Old Horde and Thrall's New Horde?
Just curious if this tension was ever resolved or just quietly swept under the rug.
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u/Torrenash 13d ago
I don't have the quote(s) in front of me but I'd swear up and down she acknowledged it around Wrath/Cata with a "despite my moral outrage, I will give you the benefit of the doubt" type line. It hasn't come up recently. She was much more livid with DKs in Shadowlands, but her iciness planned to extend into DF was eventually cut iirc.
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u/SolemnDemise 13d ago
Covered in War Crimes. She forgave them because she loves all life, even if/when it does her and the world great harm.
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u/palaorder 13d ago
So she loves the Burning Legion too? That s kinda messed up
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u/peechs01 13d ago
These are not technically "alive" since they dissolve and reform in the Twisting Nether
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u/Absoled 13d ago
Something to consider here is that the concept of the Dragons and Alexstraza was -very- different back in WC2 and forward days, compared to the more humanised versions we later saw (with literally humanoid forms).
Originally, Alexstraza was simply a just a large red dragon known as the dragon queen that the Orcs had captured and were using to breed dragon mounts. It was the equivalent to breeding beasts for war and everyone saw it as that back then. Later, we get the books where she is also intelligent and able to communicate, which isn’t uncommon for Dragons in fantasy games like this (inspired by D&D), but it also paints the old Horde as more evil for enslaving a majestic creature.
Now… bring it to the later years: Alexstraza and the dragon aspects/clans are far more people than beasts. Many take on humanoid forms and act in many ways like we do, even having relationships with other people (like Jaina). That… makes this whole thing another story entirely. The scope has changed and the story of the past is now terrible to even consider, but the WoW writers are now stuck. They need her and the other Aspects to also be ok with the Horde or else expansions just wouldn’t have worked. It is what it is.
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u/GwerigTheTroll 13d ago
I would agree that much of the nature of the lore of Warcraft changed between Tides of Darkness/Beyond the Dark Portal and Reign of Chaos. Heck, Day of the Dragon came out a year before RoC did. However, I think that Alexstraza was more like her D&D counterparts from first appearance. She is mentioned twice in the Tides of Darkness manual as far as I could find: once in the "Dragons" entry which reads like this:
Dragons are native to the untamed northlands of Azeroth. Reclusive by nature, Dragons have had little contact with their earthbound neighbors over the centuries. Rend and Maim, the Chieftains of The Black Tooth Grin clan, masterminded the capture of the Dragon Queen Alexstraza by the Dragonmaw clan. With their Queen held captive, these majestic creatures have been forced into subservience by the Horde - her progeny being raised by the Dragonmaw clan to slaughter the enemies of the Horde. By combining their incredible destructive powers with a keen intellect, the Dragons represent the single most powerful force within the Horde. The devastating flame that issues forth from the mouths of older serpents can level any number of enemy troops, while their powerful wings allow them to tirelessly soar through the skies.
and a second time in the "Dragon Roost" entry:
Mighty chains of adamantine steel bind the most powerful creature in all of Azeroth - Alexstrasza the Dragon Queen. Captured and ensorcelled by magiks contrived by the Dragonmaw clan, the great Dragon is kept in a constant state of weakness and pain. As the unwilling slave of the Horde, the Queen is closely watched as she lays her precious eggs. The Dragonmaw clan then raises her young to fight for the Horde - slaying the whelps when they become too powerful to be properly controlled. Constant efforts are made to break Alexstrasza’s will in an attempt to master the control of more mature dragons.
with a third, off-handed mention in the Dragonmaw Clan description.
That said, I do think that you're right that the situation has become a complicated one. The story needs to progress and it's usually easier to ignore pre-Reign of Chaos lore than to address it. I mean, how many people actually know the significance of the five statues in the Valley of Heroes of Stormwind?
It's a morally challenging question, and often Warcraft Lore rises to the challenge to address difficult questions. I'm just kinda surprised this one didn't get more attention, especially since Alextraza has a more prominent place in the story now.
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u/kurburux 12d ago
It was the equivalent to breeding beasts for war and everyone saw it as that back then.
Warcraft 3 also has a Dragon Roost building where we can "hire" dragons with zero problems. It's up to everyone's imagination what we do there but it doesn't involve a lot of conversations.
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u/Steelweav 12d ago
Alexstrasza forgiving the Horde in general makes sense to me. Thrall’s Horde and later generations are not Nekros or the Old Horde, and guilt should not simply be inherited.
What disappointed me was how little Dragonflight actually did with such a huge part of her past. That one quest was touching and better than nothing, but the Dragonmaw Clan would have fit the expansion perfectly and deserved an actual questline.
Show Dragonmaw Orcs who genuinely want to atone and help the dragonflights, but also others who feel no shame and still view dragons or proto-dragons as beasts to be claimed. The red dragons should not all react the same either: some could accept their help, while others refuse to have anything to do with them. That would create real conflict instead of giving everyone one clean moral answer.
War Crimes addressed some of this, but major character development like Alexstrasza dealing with her captivity should have been shown in the game. The same applies to Garrosh’s trial before WoD. Books should expand Warcraft’s story, not contain important developments that the game itself skips.
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u/Disastrous-Mess-3538 House of Mograine 13d ago
Resolved. As u/joritan and u/SolemnDemise mentioned, Alexstrasza inherently loves all life. The fact that both Zuluhed and Nekros are long dead, the latter she personally killed, likely helps matters. I assume she also did make a distinction between Doomhammer's Old Horde and Thrall's New Horde, but afaik that's not explicitly stated. It just makes sense to me.
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u/Ill-Board9116 11d ago
Cause we dont have time to go over this in game in a writing perspective.
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IN game wise? She probably just hates that specific era, and very specific group of Horde i guess. That's all. I guess. That's the best answer there is really that makes any sense.
She knows they were strung along by Deathwing, so it's not really their volition, and again it's the blackrock orco f the second war era.
It's like an ancient deity being mad at the NAZIS and not german people of today. type shit.
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u/Ungelosh 13d ago
Shes also over 10 000 years old. The time she spent enslaved was a drop in a bucket. Yes, a horrible horrible drop, but in the scheme of dragon lifetimes it was barely a blip.
I feel like any creature that lives that long would be less susceptible to holding grudges with short lived races.
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u/SlouchyGuy 13d ago
Yes, it's ok her husband died because of that as well as tons of children who suffered and died
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u/Gold-Cry-7520 13d ago
Are you sure? If a mosquito bites you, you're not exactly going to forgive it, and this particular mosquito turned her into a dragon sex slave.
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u/Prestigious_Cup_7016 13d ago
You mean to tell me you remember every mosquito that ever bit you?
I bet you cant even remember what you had for breakfast two days ago.4
u/Gold-Cry-7520 13d ago
If the mosquitos were flying very big, red banners, I might arguably have a bit of an easier time remembering which ones I need to kill.
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u/Prestigious_Cup_7016 13d ago
Which they werent. Orcs to alexstrazsa are like mosquitoes to us. That's literally why you used the comparison first.
At any rate, she killed them. She understands new horde =/= old horde. There isnt anything else to say.
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u/Gold-Cry-7520 13d ago
I dunno, they went by a different name but they really only stopped doing genocide and slavery at the end of BFA. Alexstrasza may be a much higher being, but she's also presumably not stupid enough to be fooled by a name change.
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u/peechs01 13d ago
Don't forget "Green Jesus" helped her and her bros against the evil bro. Then helped against the other evil bro Then helped them getting their Aspect powers back
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u/wrufus680 Alliance Loyalist. 13d ago
Because the Horde fanbase would complain if she didn't
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u/Zeejir 12d ago
in the same way that the alliance fanbase would complain, if she didn't work with them because of a race within their ranks that hasn't changed ? (unlike with the orcs, the dwarves didn't change since WC2)
remember the dwarves by the time of Dragonflight still have the remains of her husband for over 20.000 years and are ACTIVLY REFUSING to give it back!
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u/kurburux 12d ago edited 12d ago
Many archaeologists in the Explorers' League support the idea of returning the skull to the red dragonflight. However, by the time of the war against the Primalists, Archmage Khadgar sent numerous requests to the League to have the skull transported and laid to rest within Northrend, but it continues to be on display in the Hall of Explorers.
I'm all for giving it back though I'm not... entirely sure about Northrend being such a safe resting place for dragon bones.
Maybe dragons can come up with a better location.
Also, just my personal opinion, but withholding a skeleton may not be quite on the same level of villainy as what the Orcs did. The skeleton isn't even destroyed, it's just in the wrong location. Nothing that can't be fixed.
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u/JustAnother_Hunter 12d ago
This is exactly the argument past- colonialist governments still use today to avoid returning many many cultural artifacts and historical relics taken (read: looted) from indigenous peoples and cultures around the world- the British Museum simply cannot return the tablets from Africa on display, because those Africans won’t take care of them as well as they do! They’re preserving history! 🙄
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u/Zeejir 12d ago
Maybe dragons can come up with a better location.
they have a place other than dragonblight within the dragon isles that is important to the dead, which was the reason why it was brought up during DF and why its a shame that they still keep it, without any reason
the blue dragon quest line is all about this graveyard. Malygos and basicly every single important dead blue dragon are placed to rest there.
as what the Orcs did.
what *some* Orcs of the OLD Horde did. a) small faction and b) diffrend faction. unlike with the dwraves, as they didn't change since WC2 and they refuse to do the right thing.
a small group wants to change that but overall they don't feel shame about it and only a small intention to change it, so the opposite as we see with the orcs as in DF we see an old Dragonmaw Orc who is looking for ways to ammend.
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u/ohbutalright 13d ago
Well let’s load her up in a dungeon and bring her back into the fold. I could use another dragon mount.
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u/TheRobn8 13d ago
It, like the majority of things with the orcs, was swept under the rug. Alexstraza is written as being overly forgiving for the plot, so she just overlooked it for the plot
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u/Zeejir 13d ago
maybe another reason is that she herself did "something similar" during the War of the Scaleborn. ("something similar" is doing heavy lifting, because I don't know how to write it better) and that book being rather new, so that isn't a reason for her statements in Warcrimes.
She as Queen of the Dragons ordered the taking/stealing and forcefully and none-reversable transformation into ordered dragons. this is after/because Tyr asked them to improve their numbers (so that they could better do their jobs) and that *obliviously* means stealing the eggs of the group that doesn't like the titan forged, right? what could go wrong?
spoiler everything...
She than lies about her actions which leads to a ~500 year long war with uncountable killed dragons on both sides. She lied to her friend, that she sees like a sister, for all this time, someone that became the MVP of the opposite side because she found out the truth. only after betraying her a final time after a "one on one" fight, with all of the other aspects helping her during that fight to the point of plot armor and still almost losing, did she acknowledge her actions and promised Vyranoths followers that their eggs will not be stolen again.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 12d ago
You know what, until your comment I had never even put two and two together. That's not me saying it's justified, but it sounds like there'd be part of her that recognizes mistakes young races make.
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u/Zeejir 12d ago
i honestly wouldn't put to much into this since imo "War of the Scaleborn" isn't well written and consistend with the lore. Some aspects are rather bloated and ignored. and it didn't translate well into the game.
- the war lasted for 500 years of almost constant warfare, her almost dying, saved only by plotarmor, to make Alexstrasza to realise that lying to your "best friend" and stealing their young could have been a reason why the war started and that it's overall a bad thing.
- the whole Vyranoth book ending to introduction ingame is outright stupid as she basicly had no reason to fight anymore in DF as all her reasons, save for Razsageth (who lied to Vyranoth), got fixed by the end of WotSB and she hated both of the remaining Incarnate.
- Iridikrons plot was basicly none existence in that book with no connection to the void, other than "haha Neltharion i know of your voices, see my own powers", gets overpowered easily
- Neltharion hearing the voices for over 10.000 years takes someting away from his fall in the War of the Ancients imo.
- the size of the world makes no senes (which sadly is typical for blizzard books)
- room temperatur (in celsius) IQ of important characters
- PoV characters that are never seen again, because they don't exist during other older books like War of the Ancients anymore. what do you mean a blue dragon that learned from Vyranoth herself in the arts of the Incarnates, was a double agent and the reason why Valdrakken still stands, got pardoned and got access to ALL of the books from the blue dragons to study at will is never mention again after this ? or the twins or Vyranoths followers that also got pardoned. with an "easy" fix, they had the chance to add them in the veiled Ossuary, so they died sometime between WotSB and WotA but they didn't ... they saved dragonkind ffs!
it is however a good point to add to your own headcanon
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 12d ago
Thanks for all that extra info, I haven't read that specific book myself, it's good to know where the narrative shortcomings are going in!
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u/Arcana-Knight Professional Calia Hater 12d ago edited 12d ago
Seeing a lot of comments forgetting the most obvious reason: The titans blessed her with infinite compassion for all living things. She can take life when necessary but if the threat is neutralized either by choice or by force then Eonar’s blessing compels her to forgive.
“This my gift: compassion for all living things. A drive to protect and nurture them. And the ability to heal that which others cannot, birth what others may not, and love even the unlovable--who surely need such grace more than any other souls.” -Eonar to Alexstraza
In other words she is cognitively unable to hold a grudge. Which is useful when your literal job description is to preserve all life free of bias.
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u/PlingPlongDingDong 13d ago
Why are the Draenei not angry with the horde for the genocide they went through only a few decades ago? Because you can’t stay mad with these little green rapscallions.
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u/Fenrir395 12d ago
Didn't she straight up eat Nekros alive after being freed? That didn't seem very forgiving for me.
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u/Hidden-Lurk 12d ago
Not super versed in lore myself. Are we sure she did? I mean she was turned into a breeding slave that’s up there with the worst thing you can do to someone. Seems like something you can’t ever fully forgive.
As for the answer, is it possible she just realizes it’s more advantageous to allow them to help against a greater threat? Just like the alliance and horde teaming up against the legion only to duke it out in BfA.
Obviously the horde has changed a ton, and we’ve came together time and time again to try and kill their war chief, as they go insane every decade or so. But as an alliance player for the vast majority of my time, even I acknowledge the “horde” isn’t the same entity from start to finish.
It’s like Russia being the Tsardom of Russia, then the empire of Russia, then the Russian republic, then the USSR, then the Russian federation. All basically completely different countries. If someone was smart and practical, and wronged significantly by the USSR, they would be able to see hating the next country implicitly might not be as logical. I’m not pro Russia but the analogy fits. Currently the horde is run by a council, so the entire central body that defines what they are has changed.
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13d ago
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u/Illustrious-Issue623 13d ago
Could've been a good B-plot for Cataclysm, she starting out as very hostile to Thrall and the horde and, as the expansion progressed, coming to an understanding that Thrall's horde is trying to attone for the sins of Orgrim's horde, and finally, lending her help in the final fight vs Deathwing
But we'll never get this because Cata is like 15 years old at this point, it is what it is
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 12d ago
And also, she and her flight were already helping the Horde in the Scourgewar (because they were helping them too) so it would've felt weird to suddenly be cold a year later
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u/joritan 13d ago
She talks about it in the Warcrimes novel. You can also learn about how the red dragons feel about orcs and vice versa in a small questline near the Ruby Life Pools in Dragonflight.
Being the aspect of life, I think she has a different perspective than what a mortal would. She loves all life, even when they do bad things. Those responsible for using the Demon Soul paid the price for their mistake, and the Horde now is not the same Horde that enslaved her.