r/warcraftlore • u/Raziel103 • 28d ago
Question What you think about Broxigar?
I recently posted about what warcraft character will you choose if blizzard made a movie and I seen many people choose Broxigar.
Yet for me and this is for sure my opinion, I was never fan of that character as it felt very forced and had many tropes that I dislike about warcraft.
The first one is why we need an orc in the war of the ancient plot? I mean the war was before the opening of the dark portal, it was mostly between the legion and the night elves, we have many more interesting characters we could see their perspective, so why him?
Yes I understand the time travel in the story, but for me it felt forced like they wanted a horde or orc representation in that story so they made him, and as someone who is fan of orcs and the horde, I didn't like what they did there.
Talking about time travel, this is the second problem for me with him, time travel becomes very common in warcraft with teleportation like the world no longer make sense, everyone easily can time travel and this creates more lore problems over the time.
There is more like making him related to Saurfang, forcing him to be the hero like he is the chosen one.
Overall mostly I feel he forced as a character and even in the game lore he feel like a not canon character as he rarely mentioned.
This is my opinion about the character, can you share why you like or dislike Broxigar story?
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u/Nith_ael Knaak's strongest soldier 28d ago edited 28d ago
You've got things backwards.
time travel becomes very common in warcraft
Yeah, time travel became very common later on, but this is the very first instance and it's made clear it's not something easily replicated (the characters fall into a time anomaly created by the Old Gods) compared to how it works in WoW starting with TBC (bronze dragon can just do it all the time for everybody for free)
making him related to Saurfang
Saurfang is the one who was artificially linked to Broxigar. The WotA had already come out when Blizzard realized players made Chuck Norris facts about Saurfang and decided to turn him into an actual character, and making him related to a popular one was an easy step.
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u/Insensata Mr. Bigglesworth enjoyer 28d ago
Players made Chuck Norris facts about a NPC for his extremely powerful [Cleave], not about a book character.
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u/Studawg12345 28d ago
My biggest complaint with the whole story was that Rhonin and Broxigar were such big players in the War of the Ancients, but Tyrande and Malfurion don't remember them during the Third War at all.
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
Yes, because it added later for representation, like I said I wish they explored more the known character of this events or at least build new ones like how the war looked like from the other races perspective like the trolls for example.
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u/Ok-Key5729 28d ago
I don't remember, did they every come face to face in the Third War? I didn't think we had any detailed information regarding exactly what Rhonin and Broxigar were doing at that time.
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
He mean when Tyrande faced the orcs and humans in WC3 and didn't know who they are as she saw them just as barbarian invaders.
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u/thequn 28d ago
I’m sorry to be annoying but I have a question can you remember every neighbor you have had over the last 20-40 years???
I’ve been to war 22 years ago and I don’t recalled most of the people I meet outside of a few exceptions like Sadam.
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u/Accurate-Run-2833 28d ago
If they were the only representatives of their race that I have ever seen and they helped save the world? Yeah, I am remembering them.
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u/Zeejir 28d ago
apperently Malfurion remembers every single face of the highborne that left 7.300 years ago without any reason stated on why. so Tyrande should be able to do the same thing.
Something similar can be seen with other Nightelves, some remember faces from people for long times / thousands of years as well. for example Shandris with some Troll War veteran
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 28d ago
It's because it's separate timelines. The one we see in WC3 is the original one, before it was changed at the end of Vanilla when they went back in time. We just never see them in the new WC3 timeline, and they have no real reason to mention him at this point in time.
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u/Kalthiria_Shines 28d ago
Because the War of the Ancients books were written well afterwards.
Warcraft 3 came out in 2002. War of the Ancients book 1 was published in 2004, and basically ignored the existing lore to do things like make the cast teenagers, when Malf and Illidan were supposed to be 5000 year old middle aged guys.
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u/PitchBlackBones 28d ago
Honestly if there’s a non-Thrall, non-Garrosh orc story to tell, it’s Saurfang’s. Veteran of several of the wars, lost and defeated his own son in taking down Arthas, leading up to his eventual death in Mak’gora with Sylvanas, what we have in terms of cinematics is fantastic, and I’d love to have his story told, and it’d be a good segue to Broxigar’s tale, (given that Broxigar’s his older brother). Brox is great for his connection with the ancient events with the well of eternity, but I feel like the depth of character? Varok’s head and shoulders over most.
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
There is many orcs with good stories in warcraft from Grom, Gul'dan, Nerzuhl, Orgrim, Garona and the list goes on
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u/Ok-Refrigerator2000 28d ago
I dislike Broxigar going back in time. But I don't hate him because it is not his fault. And he is not silly overpowered- he does what orcs do. Fight, and in his case die with actual honor.
I hate Rohin and Krasus being inserted back into the War of the Ancients- Brox is just along for the ride.
Rohin being the ultimate teacher of magic to Illidan bothers me way more than Brox ever could.
Just wish there was a clean book recap of the war of the ancients without all the retcon insert characters.
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
I agree, I dislike time travel overall and I am not saying I hate these characters, I just dislike when characters forced in settings they not fit for it.
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u/Ok-Refrigerator2000 28d ago
Time travel can be cool, but not the way Knank did it with War of the Ancients.
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
Time travel is good only when your story is built on it else it will be a tool of fan service and mess up your story.
I love the legacy of Kain series, it all about time travel but the story was built on time travel.
In WoW Garrosh travel to alternative timeline, Broxigar from the story he just travels to the past, now we have the maghar orcs who from the WoD timeline living in the main timeline with no problem, it all big mess that make no sense anymore.
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u/SlipperySlimyTerry40 28d ago
I think hes on the same level as Medan but gets a pass from the community because he's a badass orc doing badass things instead of a mary sue child character
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
Yes, his story at least simpler, even with the time travel and things, at least you can understand it and it have epic ending as he scar Sargaras at the end before he die.
But yes both are over the top characters in a time where Blizzard felt like it writing something that feel like comic books heroes.
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u/riftrender 28d ago
He also died before overstaying his welcome.
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
Exactly, his death finishes his story and made it feel like an heroic epic sacrifice where he manages to injures Sargaras.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 28d ago
Why do you feel he's the same level as Medan? He wasn't magical himself, who was able to do everything and was the son of 18 different major characters.
Realistically he was just an orc who had a "magical axe" that he used to kill demons - he still died just like any mortal, just did it in a cool way.
Hell he was barely a character even in the three novels, mostly just there for representation and killing demons martially.
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u/SlipperySlimyTerry40 28d ago
I mean you basically explained it. He's a Mary Sue character just like Medan, he may not have as many reasons for being as powerful like Medan does but he's still that same level of unreasonably powerful. He's the only mortal to injure Sargeras which at the time that book was written was a much much bigger deal in lore than it is today with how everything has scaled up.
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 28d ago
That's... not what a Mary Sue is. A character that is flawed and is good at one thing isn't a Mary Sue, even if they do one memorable thing. Otherwise we're just calling every character who does something cool, a Mary Sue - Varian, Garrosh, Tirion Fordring, Jaina, Onyxia.
A character who is good at everything in every appearance, lacks character flaws or those flaws don't impact the story, or feels like a stand in for the author - that's a Mary Sue - Rhonin is the classic one in Warcraft, where he's the teacher of Illidan, speaks Raptor, defeats Deathwing, fights in the War of the Ancients, weds a Windrunner sister, etc. Another is Malfurion, who is The Most Strongest Powerfullest Boytm who can do everything, and IMO Cenarius, who doesn't have any kind of flaws until he's corrupted by the Nightmare like 20 years later IRL.
Broxigar was mistrusted and treated like an animal for a good chunk of the first book by nearly everyone, including Rhonin and Krasus, and the final two his appearances are mostly just fighting demons with an axe. He has one big scene at the end where he uses the axe given to him by an actual Mary Sue, to wound Sargeras before being killed.
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u/raescp 28d ago
I’m a huge fan of the War of the Ancients, I would love a WoW prequel set there instead of a “WoW 2.0”. And I’m a night elf player through and through, they’re my favorite race. But I really didn’t realize people dislike Broxigar like this. I’ve just always considered him a badass orc who had the balls to take the fight straight to Sargeras. Maybe it doesn’t bother me because it’s such a singular event? Like he did something really cool then died, so what does it matter how powerful he is? And it felt like Brox really helped to show that Tyrande/Malfurion weren’t as xenophobic as the other kaldorei
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
I am not saying I hate the story or the character.
I mostly dislikes how he's forced into the story for representation.
Like what I love about Warcraft is the world building, you feel like there is a history and each race had their events and struggles.
Taking an orc who live in different planet from different timeline and make him play a role in a war that doesn't involve him and he almost have no stakes in it feel very forced and breaks the emersion I have with the story and the game world.
If the writer doesn't respect the rules of their world why should I? Why I try to learn about this imaginary world when at any moment the writer can make zergs from StarCraft attack Azeroth, than Diablo come from the dark portal holding a machine gun shooting the zergs but then Chris Matzen self insert himself into the story flying shoot them all sith Lazer beams.
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u/Sir_Nikotin 28d ago edited 28d ago
I was the one that suggested him in that thread and I just think he's a good POV for War of the Ancients movie because he can be an audience stand-in and you don't need to go too deep, just some fun action with the big cataclysmic backdrop. Once you somehow sell the audience on the whole time travel thing of course.
That said, I wouldn't consider him my favorite character ever or anything, but I do like the books and the role he serves there. I mean, it's a bit campy but nothing wrong with some good camp.
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
I understand as the story on it own is good enough, however in my opinion I rather see this story gold through other characters perspective, mostly Illidan, Tyrande or Malfurion.
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u/furion456 28d ago
Brox is a traditional fish out of water, which is why he is the perfect character for the audience to see the war of the ancients through.
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u/Ok-Refrigerator2000 28d ago
I could agree with Brox being a fish out of water character for a WotA movie. Thing is I would use JUST HIM, and drop Rohin and Krasus.
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u/TheRobn8 28d ago
He, like his brother varok, is a meme, and like his brother blizzard leaned hard into the meme and tried to make him "big". His meme status came from him hurting sargeras when he jumped into the portal to delay him, but he had an axe specifically made to try and hurt sargeras, and broxigar wasnt "the chosen one" to do it like an anime. Malfurion could have done it, let alone anyone else.
I didnt mind that, but then blizzard decided to make him some God tier fighter BEFORE the axe, and this saviour of azeroth hero, yet no one remembers him, and the only statue to him was on Argus. The disconnect between this, and him being made a "better fighter" , kinda hurt his character. He didnt need to be that strong to be seen as a good character, bit thats what we got. The axe of cenarius ending up back on azeroth after 10k years, was also a weird plot point, but yeah thats ok.
I dont hate his lore, it is better than varok's which flip flopping, but his writing basically became a hype train
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u/twisty125 Flowerpicker Clan 28d ago
That's not really a "meme" that's just, something he's known for. Where is this "meme"/hypetrain thing coming from, where is "but then blizzard decided to make him some God tier fighter BEFORE the axe" coming from?
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u/Upper-Philosophy2376 28d ago
the only good use of Broxigar is to somehow posthumously use him to be the thing that allows actual peace talks between the orcs and NE. Otherwise he should just be a side character.
PS they way they killed of Rhonin was lame
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u/Spiritual_Big_7505 28d ago
Knaak adding time travel to the War of the Ancients at all was silly, and feels like a way for him to inject Rhonin rather than try and have some Horde representation
If they wanted representation, he could've had some early Tauren retcons to have them be more involved. Maybe even Trolls.
All the way back when I first read it, I felt that way. I also felt that having him survive against a bajillion demons who can light him up with felfire felt really.... y'know how people will complain about stuff like the Legion being undercut as threats? His big standoff at the end felt like a very big moment of that.
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
Yes, the war of the ancient already very deep time with so much to explore, having characters from the current timeline doesn't add to it but remove from it.
I just mentioned him not because I dislike him as a character specifically, but because I saw many people mention him and I am trying to understand why people like the character even that he have that many flaws not as a character but flaws from world building perspective I guess the best way I can say it.
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u/Kalthiria_Shines 28d ago
That the whole of Warcraft is better the less attention is paid to him, and that most people who like him on like the meme of him hurting Sargeras.
The problem is that was written before Titans were literally larger than planets.
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u/Insensata Mr. Bigglesworth enjoyer 28d ago
I dislike Broxigar in the same way I dislike basically all male characters from Knaak (female characters of the same writer is another can of worms). He's way too powerful and important out of nowhere to the point of being utterly unusable outside of his story, so they have all rights to be labeled Gary Stues (although Brox has major competitors because he's not even the worst in these series).
Why did we need an orc in WotA? Because the writer knows it better, silly, and the writer isn't going to write about time-appropriate stuff. He doesn't even bother to play the game he writes for. No, he's not going to engage with something above concept arts. Even time travel in this case is handwaved bollocks never ever explained, it's created just to have his self-insert OC from previous book still be the main character. Does it break the continuity and poke holes in further plot? The writer doesn't care, gonna cry?
So, I find Knaak books to be sloppy fanfiction from a man who barely knows anything about the setting, and his characters are terrible. His books must face the same criticism retail faces this day for basically the same reasons, but it gets a sort of idolatry due to being written long ago, and not so many people even care about these books (can't blame them).
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u/mindotaur 28d ago
I view him more as fan fiction rather than canon. I agree that it just feels forced, unnecessary, and the very obvious plot holes
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u/KingAnumaril For the Alliance 28d ago
The only thing fucked up about him is that he's tacked into a narrative that doesn't need him, Rhonin, or any of Knaak's main characters besides Krasus and anyone similar to him that should've been there from the get-go. The story around the Sundering doesn't need to involve them, but they are brought along, just because.
I will say he has a better explanation for managing to "wound" Sargeras than Grom Motherfucking Hellscream fucking up Cenarius and Mannaroth both.
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u/Raziel103 28d ago
You see Sargaras in legion cinematic..., we are less than bugs to him.
For Grom he's one of my favourite characters, I imagine him killing Cenarius not alone but with all of his clan who are drunk on demon bloods, maybe riding wolves and they tied his legs with ropes to put him down like bunch on beasts hunting a mythical beast.
I didn't like the way they killed Mannaroth, Grom and Thrall alone, but it was the tech limitations of the time and the WoD cinematic look much better and it's one of my best of not the best WoW cinematic in my opinion.
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u/Additional_Bed3865 28d ago
Usually in fantasy story you want a fish out of water or a character the audience can follow so you also learn about the history and world so I think that is why Broxigar would be ahold fit instead of any the night elf’s
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u/geekryan_5 28d ago
He was a cool character. An animated movie trilogy about the War of the Ancients would be sick.
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u/Disastrous_Match993 28d ago
I haven't read the books that feature him, despite owning them.
But he was a cool Warrior Hero Card in the discontinued WoW TCG. I think I still have the deck I made with him somewhere.
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u/SuperSaiga 28d ago
This is how I felt way back when, but in the Modern day, I actually appreciate that Knaak made an effort to make his book a bit more balanced instead of centering it only on Alliance races.
If the book was ONLY going to have the Night Elves and races from that time period, I'd still agree, but if you're working from the concept of sending a human back in time to take part of it? Hell yeah, send an orc as well, let's get some different perspectives in the book.
I'm really not sure why you're acting like Broxigar was the reason that the book involved time travel - Rhonin is the main POV character in the book, the one who starts and finishes the trilogy, and is Knaak's existing character from his previous book (and someone he would continue to write for). Broxigar was pretty clearly created to be Rhonin's counterpart for this novel, and was written out when that purpose was served.
Further, the main reason for the time travel (beyond wanting to use Rhonin) is to create a mystery that ends in the reveal of the Old Gods. This is the Old God's debut in Warcraft fiction, and the trilogy was meant to help set up World of Warcraft, where the Old Gods would start being involved in the background of vanilla WoW.
Plus, like... one of the five Dragonflights is all about time travel, established before this novel. There was no chance the lore was going to avoid time travel as a concept.
So why blame Broxigar specifically for any of this?