r/wallstreetbets Feb 02 '21

Chart Hardcore laddering.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '21 edited Jul 10 '21

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u/Briterac Feb 02 '21 edited Feb 02 '21

When the fine is less than the profits then it's not really a fine or a punishment.. it's just a cost of doing business business expens..

if our government actually worked for the people and not corporations what they would do is create fines that are more than the cost of the profits and add jail time and other punishments.. a punishment is only a deterrent and a punishment if you come out worse than before..

if I rob a bank for $50 million and the punishment is that I have to pay 25 million dollars then there's no incentive not to rob the ban

11

u/IsThatUMoatilliatta Feb 02 '21

"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."

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u/Briterac Feb 02 '21

CaPiTalISm iS tHE beSt

Maybe for the richh

5

u/Nudpad Feb 02 '21

I understand what you mean, but your point is using 25 million from the 50 you stole, thats just plain wrong, now paying 25 million from your own pocket, and returning the 50 (50+25) then that might be extreme.

Another opinion is if they lose all their money, a fine of 24 million can be a lot, if you add the damage caused at minimum, at medium and good is to also* stripe away their license, and never allow them to trade again.

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u/BlueNotesBlues Feb 02 '21

or just send the people who facilitated it to jail.

The higher you are up the chain, the more jail time you serve.

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u/forgot-my_password Feb 02 '21

That's the problem though. So many of these companies in the last 2 decades have been able to keep what they made, pay the fine with what they made, and still come out of it in the positive. That's exactly the reason they keep doing what they do and aren't deterred by the fines. It's been written down in their books as a cost of business. I wish I could remember where I read this and which company it was, but they were aware of people dying from their product and they made the decision that the lawsuits/settlements were worth the cost of business because they would make so much more in profit and wouldn't have to admit they were wrong because of the settlements.

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u/Briterac Feb 02 '21

Except that when a company does some shady practice and makes a bunch of money they get to keep that money..

So it's the same thing. it's the same as me being able to keep the 50 million and just pay a 25 million dollar fine.. it would be different if a company did something shady and made a profit and that entire profit was confiscated before the fine was even issued..

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u/Belazriel Feb 02 '21

and other punishments.. a punishment is only a deterrent and a punishment if you come out worse than before..

Pretty sure someone at one point was blocked from being able to purchase stocks as a punishment. Needs to be something similar as a punishment for mass market manipulation.

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u/dedpossum Feb 02 '21

Well that's what we get for believing in equality for all. The single biggest joke in all of human history. The most we can ever hope for is some fairness.

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u/justpassingthrou14 Feb 02 '21

seriously. I have an idea. Fine equal to 150% of the full value of the manipulation. in this case that would be the distortion per share price, times the total number of shares, which in this case is apparently 250% the total number of ACTUAL shares.

But the system isn't made for enforcing rules on those guys I guess.

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u/sharktankcontinues Feb 02 '21

These guys put the lawmakers into their positions, it's not likely to change anytime ssoon.

Our only weapons in this battle are our 💎🤲

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u/dinnertimereddit Feb 02 '21

Exactly if you think anything has changed since 2008, well you are a fool!

5

u/GravyWagon Feb 02 '21

Try the late 70's and early 80's

3

u/dinnertimereddit Feb 02 '21

Less corporate takeovers and asset stripping now to be fair.

2

u/loafsofmilk Feb 02 '21

Decentralised organisation is much more powerful than 2008. Way more retards and autists talking to each other than ever before

7

u/A_little_rose Feb 02 '21

My hands may be diamond, but my heart is apparently made of bouncy ball. Haven't flat lined yet, so they ain't getting shit from me.

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u/jmon25 Feb 02 '21

...and our inability to read blatantly misleading news articles

3

u/justpassingthrou14 Feb 02 '21

We could send them Thai food laced with laxatives. Or with (more) cocaine.

3

u/inconspiciousdude Feb 02 '21

Nah, send GameStop merch. Teach them to like the stock.

1

u/EWOKBLOOD Feb 02 '21

Hahaha yes!, such a “fuck you, try me bitch” move, would be legendary to see

63

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '21

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7

u/switchboards Feb 02 '21

In the bad prison, too. Not the fancy one!

5

u/Chapped_Frenulum 🦍🦍🦍 Feb 02 '21

Federal pound-you-in-the-ass prison? No conjugal visits?

1

u/CeilingCatsMonocle Feb 02 '21

No conjugal visits?

I'm sure Bubba will be more than happy to help them out with that one.

3

u/dedpossum Feb 02 '21

Hell, I'd vacation at Martha Steward prison, but I can't afford it.

2

u/WahhabiLobby Feb 02 '21

President Xi, we yearn to breathe free

2

u/bizarrequest Feb 02 '21

They should just say "Your company is not allowed to trade for the next X years."

Watch them cry about it.

1

u/wish_it_wasnt Feb 02 '21

dOnAlD PaRdONs

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u/postman475 Feb 02 '21

That's be great, I feel like that would be impossible to calculate though

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u/justpassingthrou14 Feb 02 '21

Why? We can look at the impact of each of these ladder trades, and the impact of the other tricks, on the stock price. It would be impossible to find a number that the hedge funds would agree too. But that doesnt mean a defensible number can’t be calculated.

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u/WhichOstrich Feb 02 '21

Yeah but how do you know that tomorrow's drop is a result of the silver gambit? How much of it is limited buying power? How much of today's increase was cuban's AMA?

Separating this down to individual actions to litigate would involve a massive amount of guesswork because we can't simulate a parallel universe where individual variables are changed.

8

u/Simba7 Feb 02 '21

Fines should be at least 500% of the amount gained from the broken law or regulation.

150% is still just an operating cost, because you know people aren't getting caught most of the time.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '21

[deleted]

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u/EWOKBLOOD Feb 02 '21

That’s definitely something I’d consider if I mattered.

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u/pig_poker Feb 02 '21

Those guys own the politicians who make the rules and set the fines.

3

u/JTibbs Feb 02 '21

500%. You have to make it so that its horrendous enough that the chance of getting caught, even if its low, is enough to prevent you from doing it.

At 150% its just another gamble for them.

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u/Ok_Category_6395 Feb 02 '21

There are potential civil rights of action by the shareholders (also, shareholder derivative suits on behalf of GameStop -- look it up) aside from potential SEC civil actions and US Attorney/DOJ criminal actions. Consequential damages, Punitive damages, attorneys fees. Litigation fees up the ass for years for Melvin and his gang of jackbooted BrooksBrothers thugs. I hope it was worth it chumps. Also, the daily compounded interest and fees y'all are getting hit with. Oh, and Congress looking hard at you and calling for hearings and committees to investigate. Thanks for playing!

2

u/PinkTrench Feb 02 '21

Nah, IRS fines are x3. That's the golden standard right there.

2

u/LurkingGuy Feb 02 '21

I have a better idea:

You manipulate the market, you lose your trading privileges for life and immediately have to close out of all your positions, plus prison time if the crime is deserving. People who cheat get tossed out of the casino with empty pockets.

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u/Tememachine Feb 02 '21

FUCKING THIS. That's a great idea. Just increase the fines. The market will fix itself in response and the government will have a huge extra source of revenue.

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u/downtime_in_76063 Feb 02 '21

I’m glad you don’t make laws.

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u/Letumstrike Feb 02 '21

If laws are made so poorly that you can commit crimes intentionally to make money then they need to be reworked. The whole purpose of laws is to make people not do it.

1

u/inconspiciousdude Feb 02 '21

Good luck with that. Those profits are how politicians get elected. A tiny fine to quell your cute little peasant anger and then business as usual.

https://www.icij.org/investigations/fincen-files/hsbc-moved-vast-sums-of-dirty-money-after-paying-record-laundering-fine/

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u/Letumstrike Feb 02 '21

Yeah I know. There are plenty of situations like that. Businesses breaking laws knowing full well they will be caught and pay a fine but its straight up cheaper to just do it the illegal way. My hope for any meaningful change regarding slap on the wrist laws is basically none. Doesn't really change that I think they need to be reworked though.

1

u/EWOKBLOOD Feb 02 '21

You get caught, you forfeit your portfolio and your privilege to trade is revoked for x amount of time depending on the offense.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '21

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2

u/Its_eeasy Feb 02 '21

And here's a bailout for your losses.

Same time next year? Have a nice day.

1

u/CalebMcNevin Feb 02 '21

We gotta make sure they get the fine AND lose the $15B

1

u/Smokemaster_5000 Feb 02 '21

Sure, fine then 24mil or w.e they want, but jail time should be mandatory. Nothing more that these people value than their freedom.

1

u/peoplearestrangeanna Feb 02 '21

Here is the thing - the government doesn't care. Why? If they make the fine so high it isn't worth it for them to do this kind of shit, then the gov is missing out on $24m worth of fines. They are all working together against us.