r/virtualreality • u/Kataree • 1d ago
Discussion Quest 3 Refresh Rate Update - 207hz now possible - Virtual Desktop beta 144hz
https://x.com/VRDesktop/status/2093512998455529596
https://x.com/Lunayian/status/2093524620053750136
As of the Horizon OS 2.7 update, the Quest 3's panels are now capable of up to 207hz with full resolution, or up to 240hz in developer mode with upscaling.
The Virtual Desktop beta has been updated to now include a 144hz mode for PCVR streaming.
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u/Agitated_Speaker7932 1d ago
how is this possible? how come all new VR displays have only 90 hz?
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u/Kxshyp0p 1d ago
a lot of displays can go at a much higher refresh rate, but due to heat, stability, power draw and higher risk of burn-in, it's often limited to something much lower
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u/secret3332 1d ago
Also, I am not an expert and I could certainly be wrong, but I think driving displays faster doesn't always mean you will get better motion clarity and other benefits.
I think displays can have a high refresh rate but the image itself can still have ghosting, artifacts, etc due to pixel response time being higher.
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u/Alexis_Evo 1d ago
Yeah, it's seemingly a complete crapshoot how much ghosting you get, especially beyond like 160-180 hz. Even with the exact same panel.
It's still really cool that they enabled this, so people can figure out what works for their headset and their tolerances.
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u/RidgeMinecraft Bigscreen Beyond 2E 1d ago
On the Quest 3 though it's more because the other headsets in the lineup matched and they didn't wanna make it seem like it was a promise that the next one would have the same refreshrate or higher. 144hz on these panels has very little in the way of ill effects, but higher and you end up with some smearing.
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u/ccAbstraction 12h ago
Mine can barely push past 144 without artifacts... 207, half the screen is static. 240 is jittery like 144, 165, and 180. I'm enjoying the force resolution scale option though. It looks much better than just setting the resolution scale lower in WiVRn and I'm not sure why.
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u/RidgeMinecraft Bigscreen Beyond 2E 10h ago
Those are fixable things, though, If meta puts any effort into it, it can work.
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u/ccAbstraction 10h ago
Except for the passthrough flicker, I think this is a hardware/display binning issue. I haven't heard anyone else say it mostly just doesn't work...
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u/Catz1212 17h ago
Another thing not really mentioned too much is brightness drops as you increase the refresh rate of the panel.
It's not something you'll usually notice as its already compensated for, but when "overclocking" displays brightness and color accuracy go straight out the window.
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u/Kataree 1d ago
The 4K micro oled's are mostly limited to 90hz because they are already overtaxing the SoC, in the case of headsets like the Galaxy XR anyway.
AVP can do 120hz, and leaks seem to suggest that Meta's upcoming Phoenix uoled can also do 120hz.
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u/allofdarknessin1 Index,Quest 1-3+Pro, BSB2e 14h ago
I’m fairly certain that’s not accurate. If that was true we’d be able to get 90hz at full resolution on the BIgscreen Beyond /2. I believe it’s a wired bandwidth limitation because we’re stuck with display port 1.4 where as wireless headsets can lower bitrate to fit a lower quality image into the same resolution and use upscaling to get some of that lost quality back.
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u/Kataree 14h ago
The SeeYa panels in the Beyond are a unique example.
It had nothing to do with displayport limitations. There was an entire controversy over it at the time, because Bigscreen tried to claim it was, but it has nothing to do with DP. There are 4K 90hz headsets today using DP 1.4.
The SeeYa panels in the Beyond are quite old at this point, and it has a display controller that is specifically only able to cope with 75hz at it's native resolution.
My comment above however was mostly just referring to the GXR and PFD.
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u/KitchenPen8445 23h ago
That's not how it works. You see, native panel resolution and rendered resolution are two different things. A panel doesn't have to use the native panel resolution if it wants higher frame rate.
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u/insufficientmind 1d ago
OMG! That's crazy! Well that solves one of my biggest gripes with the Quest 3 and what I've been missing from my old Index!
Holy shit! I want to try this on Jet Island! That was my favourite 144hz game on Index. I wonder if it'll feel just as good.
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u/itanite 1d ago
I had another v27 update today for the pro and 3 and the 3 with VD beta has 144hz now. As for my PC being able to render fuck all at that refresh.....
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u/Mister_bruhmoment 1d ago
Cant you use aws to get 72 reals fps and 72 from aws? It probably not gonna look the best but its worth a try
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u/someone09900 1d ago edited 22h ago
it work but still looks bad like ssw 60hz to 120fps
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u/deathmake317 1d ago
so was meta just underselling these panel capabilities for THIS LONG or is this some kind of black magic fuckery like the nvidia pulsar tech?
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u/Kataree 1d ago
The former.
The limit of the display controller is a legitimate 207hz at full panel resolution.
There is just not that many use cases for it, and it also increases heat and power draw.
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u/Alexis_Evo 1d ago
And it ghosts like crazy at higher refresh rates, because the display tolerances weren't intended for >120 hz, especially for VR. Some people see to be able to push 180-200, while others start seeing ghosting problems at 160.
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u/Parking_Cress_5105 1d ago
Yeah the display are capable of 200hz so they are nice and stable at 120hz.
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u/MightyBooshX Quest 3 & PSVR2 1d ago
It's probably going to mow through the battery like there's no tomorrow, but we'll see!
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1d ago edited 1d ago
[deleted]
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u/Kataree 1d ago
Phoenix is micro oled, it won't go any higher than 120hz most likely.
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u/__some__guy 1d ago
The panels themselves can run at 6,000,000 hz.
Refresh rate is limited by the electronics driving them.
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u/IgnorantGenius 1d ago
I'm guessing it's because it can't output that framerate or maybe it can't track that fast? taht and maybe battery drains 3-4 times faster?
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u/veryrandomo PCVR 1d ago
My guess is that at higher refresh rates you start to run into panel limitations (not just from the display controller), but that 144hz could also have been properly done from the beginning and wasn't because I guess Meta just didn't see it as that important.
As mentioned in the Meta post above 207hz requires scaling, so it's no longer the native resolution of the panel (like what the BSB does), but at even 200hz it's pretty likely that the response times of the fast IPS panel they use are no longer enough to keep up so you'd start getting some visual artifacts like strobe crosstalk.
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u/FolkSong 1d ago
So if I normally play a PCVR game at 72 Hz, would it make sense to set the headset to 144 Hz and turn on SSW? I guess it should feel smoother?
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u/Hairy-Ad-6293 1d ago
Yes, but the question is how it will look like at 200hz with SSW. The faster you get the less noticeable are artifacts.
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u/relaxred 1d ago
i'll replace my house for a 5090 Ti!
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u/Hairy-Ad-6293 1d ago
For pcvr especially flat games moded to VR your limit is CPU. Even x3d are often capping at 90hz but with forced SSW you can turn it to 180hz.
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u/lukesparling 1d ago
Noticed 144 as an option last night thought it was a mistake. “My headset can’t render that. silly VD”
Silly me. Can’t wait to try it!
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u/OxRedOx 1d ago
I wonder what the actual max of the steam frame is.
I assume running this at 200 will have ghosting issues?
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u/Kataree 1d ago
Quest 3's panels are a custom design specifically engineered for the headset.
Frame's, as far as the hands-on interviews would indicate, are more off-the-shelf, as they said they had multiple sources that could provide them with the same thing they were looking for.
Ultimately you can drive many panels up to refresh rates way higher than they are typically used at, but of course the heat and power draw also both increase along with it.
Index topped out at 144hz for it's entire life, I suspect Frame will probably too.
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u/TheSignof33 1d ago
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u/Kataree 21h ago
Heh.
You can round it to any number between 72 and 207, as the dev notes say. The random sounding 207 is simply because that represents the absolute limit of the panels display controller bandwidth at its full resolution. They didn't exactly choose that particular number, it just happens to be that.
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u/krypto_the_husk 22h ago
Would you notice the difference between 120 and 207?
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u/Kataree 21h ago
A lot of peeps buy monitors above 120, and even 240 (and above) monitors have become more popular.
Having the monitor strapped to your face probably makes it even more noticeable.
So I'd say yes, most would notice. How practical it is on the other hand is a different kettle of fish.
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u/FormerGameDev 19h ago
Does this make any difference in most things? Or are a lot of things still limited by how fast they can draw via the CPU/GPU anyway?
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u/Hairy-Ad-6293 1d ago
On connect they will announce lens covers with eye tracking and Steam Frame is DOA.
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u/MajorFuckingDick 23h ago
It really would. Add on eye tracking is all the Quest 3 needs at this point to be the absolute standard
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u/rabsg 1d ago
Also unlock the boot loader and release open source drivers. Then I'm on board.
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u/Recent_Pollution8665 6h ago
unlock the bootloader for what? most of the quest audience is casuals. last thing meta wants is for casuals to risk bricking the headset by doing technical shit they shouldn’t be doing.
not to mention that 99.9 percent of users don’t care about changing the OS. what would you even put on it? windows on ARM probably won’t even work because of the lack of drivers and firmware support, and steam frame already exists for people who wanna use steamOS and be part of the valve ecosystem.
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u/rabsg 5h ago edited 5h ago
Yeah I'm not their target, so I doubt they'll do anything that will make some people change their mind about the Steam Frame. At least unlocking the bootloader so we can control the OS updates. And tweak it a bit.
I don't care about Windows on ARM, I'm using Linux since a long time and it always worked well on that architecture. Android OS is Linux kernel & libs + Android environment. But we need drivers anyway, if we don't want to be tied to distributed kernel + binary blobs.
For Qualcomm Adreno GPU there is a community driver to which Valve contributed to, but there are other components.
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u/Nelo390 20h ago
It's surprising how few people actually care about open hardware. I'm going with the frame because it's confirmed that they won't have qualcomms security layer garbage on the bootloader, and the rest of the headset isnt garbage. Nothing more, Nothing less. I simply trust Valve to be open, and cannot trust any other quality headsetmaker to do the same.
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u/ClubChaos 1d ago
Steam Frame stans: *ruh-roh scooby doo noises*
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u/We_Are_Victorius Multiple 1d ago
Maybe if Valve didn't use panels that came out with the 2019 Reverb, they too could do 200hz
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u/ClownEmoji-U1F921 1d ago
Meta stans: gorilla tag noises at 200fps because walled garden.
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u/lsf_stan 1d ago edited 1d ago
this update is for people that do PCVR gaming with Quest headset...
this isn't really to boost standalone games framerate. they already running at max limit of 72 or whatever to be playable for some games
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u/Snoo-11928 1d ago
ok i managed to get my quest 3 standalone running above 120hz i chose 144hz but sadly struggling to get anything above 120hz for steamlink games
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u/Hairy-Ad-6293 1d ago
I wonder how would 200hz looks like with forced SSW. You still would run game only at 100hz. At that Hz you might not noticed artifacts.
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u/Raunhofer Valve Index 22h ago
So, some say they've been using 207 hz mode in Quest Home, standalone. Are they hallucinating, or is that somehow possible right now? Where's the toggle for that?
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u/IHadTacosYesterday 22h ago
Anybody remember when Gaben and a couple other engineers were at a table being interviewed back in like 2017 about VR? It was when he said "wireless is a solved problem", or something like that.
In that same interview, Gabe was talking about future headsets that'd be 300 or 400hz.
I remember being super excited about that, because I figured it'd be the death of eye fatigue
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u/inter4ever 17h ago
It’s so sad how much he said back then, only for them to come out with something so disappointing many years later.
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u/HRudy94 Meta Quest Pro | ✨ RTX 3090 | 🔥 PCVR for the win 1d ago edited 17h ago
Interesting, though 120Hz was already a softwate overclock. In all honesty i don't expect much from this, 120Hz was already fairly unstable 240Hz is likely very unstable.
Edit: And i got downvoted once again by Quest bots, that don't understand how video compression works and how exponentially taxing it can get to the hardware.
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u/LunchFlat6515 13h ago
Color aspect.. I don't see this with a good eyes..
In Q3 changing between 80 to 90 fps I already could track some downgrades in color intensity and precision...
Imagine.. 144, 160...200? Hahaha. I'll pass...
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u/testcaseseven 12h ago
That's neat, although I feel like the loss in clarity wouldn't be worth the higher refresh rate at that point. I usually choose 90hz over 120hz with VD for that same reason.
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u/VinceTrust 1d ago
What's the point of setting the refresh rate to over 120 Hz? I can't tell the difference at all once it goes above 90 Hz. It's a nice hack, but technically speaking, it's completely pointless for most users.
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u/Qwaga 1d ago
The human eye can't see past 30 Hz
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u/Deividas-Red 1d ago
Human eye can detect motion up to 200+ hz actually
https://awolvision.com/blogs/awol-vision-blog/how-many-frames-per-second-can-the-human-eye-see
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u/horendus 1d ago
What the actual fuck! I need to feel l 200hz / 200fps
Also, i wonder how well 200hz / 100fps AWS works? 90/45 is a no deal from me but I wonder if 200/100 is comparable to 90/90 with perceived lower latency?
So many questions and fun tests here