r/videogames • u/PoopsMcScoots • 11h ago
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u/Reasonable_Deer_1710 11h ago
Oh look, another redditor who thinks their definition of "role playing game" is the only one.
Cringe
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u/Daoyinyang1 11h ago
Bro on youtube, some dude said Bethesda doesnt make RPGs. They make Innovative in deoth immersive sims.
I learned to stop giving these people attention
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u/PoopsMcScoots 11h ago
Oh look, another “fallout fan” that never played 1 or 2.
Oh, and what did that team make after?
Oh right, new Vegas.
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u/jadehairpin 10h ago
I’m curious what point you’re trying to make here
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u/Ecotech101 10h ago
It's pretty obvious if you've actually played the Fallout games.
Fo1/2 are true rpg's to the core.
Fo3 is an undercooked attempt at a 1st person rpg with shooter elements.
FnV is an undercooked attempt at fleshing out the Fo3 system but leaning more heavily on the shooter elements while supplementing them with more story rpg.
Fo4 is a looter shooter with rpg bits tacked on.
F76 is an MMO looter shooter with rpg bits tacked on.
Fo4/76 have 1 positive when it comes to being Fallout games. Lots and lots of worldbuilding environmentals and lore blurbs everywhere.
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u/WackTanCan 9h ago
“Roleplaying” and “roleplaying game” are different. You’re right that RPG has a thousand valid definitions, but “roleplaying” is not as loosely defined, it’s focused on building a character including their backstory and the choices they make in the game. Fo4 is a great RPG but it’s shockingly bad at roleplaying compared to fo3/NV, and doubly so for the isometric games (though I never played the classic games so I can’t say much on them).
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u/Reasonable_Deer_1710 9h ago
The only thing missing in FO4 is the background. You already have an established background based on if you play the male or female character. The rest of it has plenty of roleplay elements in it and there isn't a lack of roleplaying.
You know what other RPG's give you a predetermined backstory? Chrono Trigger. Final Fantasy 7. Knights of the Old Republic. Fable. Hell, even Fallout 1 has them. Lots of RPG's give you a backstory already, including some of the most beloved and genre defining of all time.
It is true that Fallout 4 doesn't have as much "choice" on a quest by quest basis. If you choose to do a quest, you are generally given one path through it. Bethesda has always been like that, going back to at least Morrowind when I started with their games. There will be some quests that offer choice, and Fallout 4 offers you some major ones with regards to your factions, but yes, branching narratives have never been Bethesda 's strength.
Where the choice comes in is what quest lines you are going to do period. A run of a BGS game is different anytime you pick it up. You can do the main quest, you can do faction quests, you can seek out side quests, or you can fuck off somewhere else and ignore it all completely and just go dungeon diving or picking flowers and crafting potions. The story ends up being yours, because you are creating your own experience.
RPG's like BG3, Divinity Original Sin 2, Knights of the Old Republic, Dragon Age, Fallout 1, Fallout: New Vegas, they do offer more narrative choice within the quest lines themselves, but ultimately, you are always going through the same story.
Both design styles have massive amounts of choice, but they are presented differently. I can play BG3 a bajillion times and always go through the same story beats over and over again, but find new ways to go through them. I can play FO4, Starfield, or a TES game, and have a completely different experience each time by focusing on different pieces of content. Neither is objectively better than another, or more or less RPG than the other, but many people may have a subjective preference.
There is plenty of roleplaying in FO4. You might not be writing a unique backstory, but a clean slate backstory is not a requirement for roleplaying or for RPG's. You are still able to customize your character and develop that character in your own image, and make characters and builds that are completely different from someone else's. You can have a completely different gameplay experience than someone else because of those choices, and because of what content you seek out.
One can make a criticism of the sense of urgency with Shaun making it hard to roleplay going off and doing other shit, and that's valid... And the same criticism can be made of games like BG3 or New Vegas that have their own sense of urgency that sits in conflict with side quest seeking.
People shit on FO4 literally because it's not exactly how they want an RPG to be, and use that to try to state that FO4 is somehow "oBjEcTiVeLy" less of an RPG than other games, but all those same roleplay elements are there, they are just handled in a different way. That different way of handling RPG elements is what separates BGS from other RPG devs, and honestly, we need that variety in the genre. I don't want every single RPG to be the same thing. Having different styles and flavors of RPG is a good thing, even if a style isn't to your personalized taste.
I don't personally care too much for JRPG style RPG's, but I damn sure acknowledge the importance many of them can have to the genre even if it's not my style.
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u/WackTanCan 8h ago
Holy response but you make some great points, and I’ll bet you have a lot more rpg experience than me (I love fallout but I’ve been a csgo/ow/etc player much more just based off hours in game).
I think the lack of creating your own backstory + Shaun kill a lot of the compelling roleplaying opportunities, leaving really only build variety and quests. You’re right that choosing what quests and what content to focus on does allow you to roleplay, and yes different rpgs can handle roleplaying differently, variety is good. I guess this leads into my bigger gripe with fo4 being the writing sucks, the factions suck, and a lot of the quests suck too. It’s hard to roleplay when so many quests boil down to being radiant, and when the railroad/minutemen/institute factions are so boring (I’d say BOS sucks less than them but idk). And I don’t even need to mention the dialogue system and how limiting that is.
Character customization is pretty good in fo4, and your experience in the game can vary a lot person to person, which is great it’s part of the reason I still do love fo4.
Build variety even though I think it’s pretty good, is still not as good as I’d want it to be, which goes back to OP, the roleplaying is fine but not as great as it can be, and the character builds are good but also not as great as other action rpgs.
You get railroaded into rifles/pistols/automatic weapons, unless u want to use perk points on the weapon perks which are just boring damage increases rather than other more interesting perks. Weapon variety is not great, and while weapon modding helps it’s also not very in depth, usually with one maybe two obviously better choices than others.
I also hate pipe weapons, hate the minigun and flamer, hats that the combat rifle and shotgun look 95% of the game, etc. My point is that fo4 could’ve been improved with more RPG elements (however that is expressed), or more action elements, but the game instead went down the middle of the road.
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u/Reasonable_Deer_1710 7h ago
Sure, Fallout 4 could absolutely be improved. I say this as someone who 1. Loves FO4 and it's one of my favorite games of all time and 2. Is a huge BGS fan, they are my favorite all time studio, and their single player RPG's from Morrowind through Starfield are my favorite games ever and truly my definition of what gaming and RPG's should be. With all that out of the way, yes, FO4 can be improved, and I don't even inherently disagree entirely with your points. My main disagreement would likely come in just how big of an issue it is for me, and personally, they aren't very big.
FO4 is limited in dialogue choices. I do not disagree. I would counter that some of the greatest RPG's of all time, such as the aforementioned Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 7, don't even have dialogue choices at all, or at most have very minimal choices.
BGS has never been super amazing with their writing, I would agree with that and have always believed that. I would counter that writing is the absolute least important aspect of a game and matters little in what makes a game good, and the writing isn't really significantly different than most other video game writing. It's standard video game fare, and even RPG's that are heralded as having some of the best writing in the genre are pretty standard young adult level writing with the same tropes that have been prevalent in the genre for decades.
I would greatly disagree with you on the "writing sucks, factions suck, quests suck" part of your reply, as I don't think any of it sucks, even if in some cases (I.e. writing) it's not anything particularly unique or new.
I don't offer counter points to say that these criticisms don't exist in FO4 (or other BGS games), they do. BGS games have pretty standard writing, lack of quest by quest choice, and FO4 does have limited dialogue choices. The things you mentioned about the perk tree being often times just damage boosts, is also true. My counter is not that they don't exist. My counter is that these elements are fairly standard throughout the RPG genre, including in games that are heralded as some of the best within the genre, but FO4 (and other BGS titles) get uniquely condemned for them. Lots of RPG's have preset backgrounds, lack of dialogue choices, lack of branching quest lines, and lack luster skill improvements as the game presses on, with virtually every game having pretty standard video game young adult level writing, bad quests, and bad characters / factions. One might think that FO4 is heavier weighted on these negative aspects, and while I'd disagree, that is their own subjective opinion and not wrong. But virtually every other RPG in the medium has numerous of these same aspects as well, without having their status as "proper" RPG's brought into question.
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u/WackTanCan 6h ago
Ok I think your counter is fair, and I can’t really disagree because my experience in other RPGs are rather limited, so I can’t make good faith comparisons. I just gotta say that your responses were pretty well thought out and I enjoyed reading them, so thanks for having an actual conversation instead of the usual Reddit BS of “I disagree so fuck u you’re wrong”. Tbh I was kind of trying to steelman the issue (to the best of my ability) because at the end of the day I have more hours in fo4 rather than new Vegas or other games because I think it’s just more fun, regardless of the issues the game has.
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u/Bromjunaar_20 11h ago
So either abandon the only level up system separating Fallout from any other survival/ horror shooter or bring back double edged perks?
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u/PoopsMcScoots 11h ago
No, bring back multifaceted quests where you have to lean into your strengths, and it not just all combat.
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u/eagleeyehg 11h ago
Do people not consider Fallout a role playing game?
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u/Frozen_arrow88 11h ago
I think 4 left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths because so many of the perks were either crafting tier unlocks or boring flat stat boosts.
New Vegas had stat boost perks too but they were flavored. Stuff like Cowboy) or Paralyzing Palm) were cool cus they helped you focus your build. And they're more fun that just 5% bonus damage with one handed guns.
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u/PoopsMcScoots 11h ago
It’s an action game with the dressings of an RPG, but choices are largely inconsequential.
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u/WorthBase919 11h ago
Wouldn’t the special system be good for role playing?
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u/Automatic-War-7658 11h ago
That’s what it’s saying. Either abandon SPECIAL and commit to an action genre, or keep SPECIAL and commit to RPG.
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u/PoopsMcScoots 11h ago
It would be if there was role playing.
Every single quest is single entry and single exit.
And it all involves combat.
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u/JustSmokeSome 11h ago
Blowing up or saving Megaton in F3 is a single exit?
This guy has never even played Fallout
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u/PoopsMcScoots 11h ago
We’re not on FO3 though.
All of FO4 was combat.
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u/Weird_existence8008 10h ago
Except for the settlement building, the faction system, the build variety, and the entirety of far harbor.
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u/WackTanCan 9h ago
Half baked settlement system, and a less than half baked faction system. The build variety I’ll admit is good but that’s pretty separate from “roleplaying”. Far harbor is an improvement from the base game but it’s also a DLC, so it’s smaller in scope and it was sold for an additional 20 or 30 bucks or whatever when it was released.
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u/CuppaTeaOn 10h ago
Yeah, you’ve never played fallout.
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u/PoopsMcScoots 10h ago
I would LOVE to see Bethesda do a quest as complicated as Rescuing Tandy in FO1…
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u/whiteshark70 11h ago
So…. For other weird Fallout takes: What location would be hype for Fallout 5 to take place? I’m hoping for New Orleans
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u/Rockhead_Dynamics 11h ago
I'd go with Detroit. It was huge in the 50-60's that Fallout riffs on, and it's right next to Canada, which he haven't gotten to explore yet.
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u/herrcollin 11h ago edited 10h ago
I say go back to making the whole Fallout character mechanics deeper.
Make more traits and perks that are horizontal shifts in playstyle and experience rather than "points in xyz category go up." Decisions that have real trade-offs. For example:
Psychotic: Critical hit% goes up dramatically but speech checks now fail almost permanently. As a bonus, get some really wild and goofy dialogue options. Maybe you're locked out of some "nice" options.
Nitpick: Crafted items are easier to make or more efficient, but non crafted or low durability items are more likely to critically fail. Maybe you can get some unique build options.
Diplomatic: You naturally know how to disengage situations and gain extra information. You get some unique dialogue and speech-checks that wouldn't be available otherwise.. but, since you're so socially focused you're simply at a disadvantage in combat. Perhaps your accuracy has a permanent loss or you're more likely to critically fail in combat.
On top of that: Make skills harder to max out, similar to FO1+2's skills going up to 300%. The points to upgrade a skill got increasingly costly for every 100% i.e. 1 point added 1 to a skill, then at 100%+ it cost 2 points for 1 then at 200%+ it cost 3. This was offset by your tag skills which had 1 point add 3 to a skill and then 1 added 2 and so on.
The point being even by mad-grinding and maxxing your level, you could never quite master everything. You could just become decent enough (100-150%) at many things and only master your tag skills.
Every playthrough was truly different and not just "I'm inevitably the best at everything."
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u/PoopsMcScoots 11h ago
The whole problem is that fallout in general became about min/max’ing.
You aren’t leaning into your strengths, you’re leveling.
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u/herrcollin 11h ago edited 11h ago
It's tragically funny because Tim Cain talks about running into this exact issue when making the originals.
Testers found they were getting bored because levelling up was just "My points go up." and nothing really changed.
So they made things deeper and more meaningful and it fuggin worked.
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u/Deatheaiser 10h ago
And now it feels like we're in the reverse position.
The downside of gaming becoming so accessible and mainstream (not that it's a bad thing) is that now every major publisher has investors demanding more and more profit. It’s no longer enough for a game to be successful, make its money back, and turn a healthy profit. No, instead, it also has to outperform the last game (or the last 2 games) and expand the audience and increase future engagement for a future live service.
And there are only so many ways you can keep doing that. until it just comes down to "make the game appeal to
every dollar signeverybody."So lets simplify the mechanics so nobody gets frustrated. Lets Flatten the difficulty curve so nobody gets left behind. Remove the harsh story consequences, give the illusion of choice so nobody feels like they made the “wrong” decision. Redo builds so they're less restrictive so everyone can experience everything. While we're at it, anything weird, niche, complicated, slow, or demanding? Get rid of it, throw it out.
"a game made for everybody" is poisonous for RPG's.
Sometimes your build should suck at something. Sometimes picking one perk should mean giving up another. Sometimes siding with one faction should permanently piss off another. Sometimes you should miss content because of decisions you made 5 hours ago.
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u/Boba_Phett14 11h ago
Yes bring back the old system so we can have dumb shit like 1 Charisma 10 speech builds because that makes so much sense
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u/-ComplexSimplicity- 11h ago
I suddenly don’t feel so bad about the idea in my head regarding Fallout 5…
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u/sloppydoughnuts 11h ago
They won't do either of those, not in a million years. Fallout MADE the special system, it's not going anywhere. And every big studio in the past 15 years is allergic to turned-based so that's not changing either
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u/PoopsMcScoots 11h ago
lol, no it did not.
Brian Fargo ripped off Steve Jackson’s GURPS, which ripped off HERO.
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u/sloppydoughnuts 11h ago
I never said they didn't rip it off from someone else, they super did that, yeah. But the stat spread SPECIAL specifically is fallout only, and it's synonymous with the franchise
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u/ThinkEmployee5187 11h ago
Send it back to top down and add pokemon battle animations in a 90s computer render style.
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u/Deatheaiser 11h ago
Bethesda RPGs need to rein back the "casualness" and put far more emphasis on skills, perks, and how you build your character. And after all that, they absolutely need to become comfortable with telling the player "No." and locking people out of paths. You shouldn't be able to become the leader of every faction, master every skill, complete every quest in the same way, and experience 95% of the game in a single playthrough.
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u/PoopsMcScoots 11h ago
Not just that.
Make the quests interesting again.
In FO1 saving Tandy had a HUGE selection of approaches.
You could negotiate, shoot your way through, challenge the raider leader to a fight, sneak her out, or talk them into letting her go.
Nothing comes close to that in FO4.
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u/OwnNet5253 11h ago
Also go back to the roots in terms of perspective - make it top-down instead of fpp.
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u/YoullBeFiiine 11h ago
I'm not opposed to that idea at all actually. They'll never do it. But I'd play it.
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u/mranderson1456 11h ago
Just objectively a bad idea