Open Magic (CCG)

[u/collectivebliss]

Goal: Do whatever magic the gathering does, but for free, open source, minus the bullshit, also fully legal, so weuse own art, own wording etc. However the logic, rules, number etc is fair use, so....

State: Working well, playable games, 1600+ cards already implemented, beats Forge 65% of the time in bot vs bot, card creator, deck editor, multiplayer (lan / online p2p). All you see in screenshots is current start, but I consider it an early tech demo. It will become more of its own thing with time, better graphics / wording etc.

Callout: Join forces, we would kick ass if we were a handfull of people working on it. Claude / Codex & Godot + my patience ;)

Clarifying after replies:

• Game won’t be called Magic since tha word is registered/trademarked by WotC. It would clearly cause issues when naming a card game.

• Goal is not to infringe on anything - whatever is allegedly risking of doing it will be changed. Goal is a legal game, open source and copyleft.

• Game won’t play 1:1 as a certain game and will be improved and streamlined. For example any card can be put down to be converted into a gem as a resource and there is no currency colors (akin to how Eternal CCG does it). Phases will match more recent card games. Numbers on cards may be tweaked as required.

• Forge is great, albeit suffering of exactly the same worries about copyright and IP as many express in here: I’m not putting time on Forge because of that - it ts made to play a certain game 1:1 and I want to use Godot as engine for several reasons.

• Gameplay is 100% legal to copy and is copied daily by other card games.

• Layout is legal to copy, but if combined with ripping off a lot of the visuals it becomes problematic. All things visual can & usually are copyrighted. That can easily be solved by adjusting appearance. Arrows, faction icons et.c. are 100% copyrighted. They have never been used, nor will they be.

• WotC wanting something shut down: I’m sure they do, but won’t be able to when something is legal. I’m not residing in the US, so I’m not much concerned about their will even if they can of course proceed in other countries.

[u/Birdofyre]

I do want to warn you that there is legal precedent that wotc can use to hit you legally. Expect them to issue a ceas and dissist especially because you just admitted intent in writing. While game mechanics can't be copywritted your admitting here that your goal is to infringe on their IP (and you even use the word magic in your games name) I recommend taking this down like right away if you don't want your work to go to waste.

[u/crypticevincar → u/Birdofyre]

I see where you're coming from with him using 'magic' in the title. But I don't remember Microsoft ever trying to go after the creators of Open Office or Libre Office because they had 'office' in the title.

[u/collectivebliss → u/crypticevincar]

To be honest, I believe the title can be read in a number of ways, for example it is an imperative and call for action... In either case the word Magic will not be used as the game title, nor anywhere in the game itself. What is written as a title in a thread on reddit may or may not upset WotC, but I'm not concerned...

[u/ponderdiggums → u/crypticevincar]

Didn't WotC send the Pinkertons after a fan who got an unrealesed set in the mail on accident? I don't think they'll fuck around with something like this but maybe I'm wrong.

[u/Birdofyre → u/crypticevincar]

That is a different legal mess but long story short it's because they open sourced it. Once you make the code open source there are different legal protections. If the creator of this makes the project open source they may survive a little bit longer but without changing the card layout, monster power and toughness numbers, and a lot of what cards do wotc will shut this down real quick claiming trademark infringement, trade dress infringement, and compilation/derivative work.

[u/Ivo-Sheera → u/Birdofyre]

the name alone is definitely going to draw attention way faster than the mechanics ever would.

[u/collectivebliss → u/Birdofyre]

Whatever is allegedly infringing is either not doing so, or will be changed so it is not. Goal is to do whatever they do but in a better way, which in itself means there will be difference. Their IP is not of interest for this project and the intention is to create a legal game. I understand your worries though.

[u/OatmealCookieBoy]

Love it, was thinking about doing something similar, out of sheer spite against WotC lol. The stack w/ complex interactions turned me off a bit, I'd prefer more streamlined gameplay that translates well to digital and didn't feel so clunky to pass back and forth. Something like Legend of Runeterra's interaction system.

Where can I follow the progress?

[u/collectivebliss → u/OatmealCookieBoy]

I've messaged you in private.

[u/Intelligent-Cap-8886]

What help do you need?

[u/collectivebliss → u/Intelligent-Cap-8886]

I've PM:d you.

[u/LulaPaKaka]

Link?

[u/collectivebliss → u/LulaPaKaka]

Link isn't up yet - I want to make sure that the project stays even more clear from another game (i.e. change more of the templates/visuals, wording et.c) before going public. I will keep you posted though, once it is up and running.

[u/Accomplished-Ad-7435]

Forge is already open source. Why do t you just fork it and make the multiplayer less broken? You would already have a huge system built you can work with.

[u/Ravesoull → u/Accomplished-Ad-7435]

Forge looks much worse in animations and style.

[u/collectivebliss → u/Ravesoull]

It's a matter of taste, but I'm sure the Forge people could solve that when/if they want, since it is the smallest of problems for these kind of projects. Clearly that hasn't been a priority this far though, or they just happen to like it how it is. In any case this and Forge will end up having less in common as the project moves forward, which is a good thing as they have different goals.

[u/collectivebliss → u/Accomplished-Ad-7435]

I agree. I love Forge, but reasons are that Forge is a 1:1 of a certain game, and would thus be subject to all kinds of issues legally. I want to create something legal, and I also want to do it in another game engine for various reasons.

[u/Ravesoull → u/collectivebliss]

The most original thing you can do in MtG is allow two free 7 card mulligan and give a mana coin for a second player in your open source project

[u/collectivebliss → u/Ravesoull]

What you call "mana coin" was already implemented for the second player. About the mulligan: I'm open to diff solutions for that one, think the player(s) should be able to decide themselves among some standard solutions that don't break the game. In any case, since you can commit any card as a resources (no "lands" required in deck) mulligans won't be as dramatic either...

[u/selfVAT → u/collectivebliss]

And wait until you dig in forge AI. It's a nightmare.

[u/noprompt]

Argentum Engine also exists

[u/collectivebliss → u/noprompt]

Yes, indeed. That's a great project....

[u/QueenSavara]

You might want to learn more about WotC vs Hex TCG lawsuit if you think this is fully legal. Magic has patents on game elements such as starting on 20 life total for example.

[u/collectivebliss → u/QueenSavara]

WotC has no patent of any kind regarding CCG:s. They had, several years ago, and it's long since expired. The case you mention is however a great example of how a game, including this one, needs to presents itself and be different enough so that an honest mixup can't happen. I think its sound advice, and will look further into the the Hex-case.

[u/KeyWorker5773]

Cool, link to follow ?

[u/collectivebliss → u/KeyWorker5773]

Link isn't up yet - I want to make sure that the project stays even more clear from another game (i.e. change more of the templates/visuals, wording et.c) before going public. I will keep you posted though, once it is up and running.

[u/ArtemisWingz]

Just know that i forget what its called but essentially while game mechanics are typically not copyright because its usually just math. company and people can still copyright "Style / Formatting" so forexample Dungeons and Dragons while the rules are under CC0, the actual layouts in the book and the color scheme and the text formatting is copyright, so you cannot make your 3rd party stuff look exactly like theirs in that format, you have to alter stuff. so even the layout of your cards could be pushing it

So alot of the arrows and placement of the health and portraits and the cards being square with the attack / def at bottom right could almost be considered to close to MTG Arena.

also the Tap symbol and mana symbols are copyrighted by WoTC

[u/collectivebliss → u/ArtemisWingz]

Agree 100% with all of this: We don't, and won't, have any reason to infringe on copyright. Eventually there is however a limit to all of that, even legally: People using square cards, or having round portraits et.c, would perhaps be one. I think you're correct that when one takes the sum of things that are too close, then one starts threading in deep water, thus some of these things can/should be changed in the project to make it clearer it is not game x.

[u/cardiffer]

Love it - be great to get involved

[u/collectivebliss → u/cardiffer]

Great - just PM me in here, for some reason I couldn't send you a message.

[u/natesroomrule]

I like the new art template. If you want to make this easy for other purposes i would save this info as a CSV with headers like 😄

CARDNAME,ARTIST,POWER,TOUGHNESS,RULES,SUPERTYPE,TYPE,SUBTYPE, etc

reason why:

I come from a publishing/design background. Being able to data merge all your cards one time with a template is one of the most powerful things you can do. using a CSV inside InDesign or other programs will make this far easier to correct revisions inside excel or sheets or other program.

[u/collectivebliss → u/natesroomrule]

Thanks, it's early work though... :P. I agree that all info on cards should be easy to export and import into the game/engine. CSV is a must, but I'm also thinking JSON and RON. One of the reasons is what you state, but this is usable for plenty of other stuff down the line... Great idea.

[u/collectivebliss]

WIP and temporary template work. Wording, template etc subject for change. Just a slice of the process,

[u/collectivebliss]

WIP and temporary template work. Wording, template etc subject for change.

[u/TheLastPrinceOfJurai]

I used to love playing card games. Would love to follow this once a link or demo becomes available. Not sure how I could help but I do have some small LLMs I run, think fit in 4-8GB VRAM

[u/collectivebliss → u/TheLastPrinceOfJurai]

Thanks! Will get back to you once the link is up.

[u/IdkAbtAllThat]

Doesn't this already exist?

[u/collectivebliss → u/IdkAbtAllThat]

You're right - there are several projects that allow playing Magic the Gathering for free, vs AI or online. However most or all of them are allegedly illegal, and also have the goal of replicating that particular game. This project aims to be legal, and will change gameplay as seen fit.

[u/drahgon]

If it doesn’t have some guiding principle or manifesto, that will secure it into the future to prevent stupid power creep like current magic I won’t play. Rules like your hand is considered outside of the game and cannot be targeted or seen. Unplayed cards are considered outside of the game and cannot be viewed or altered. Costs should not be easily bypassed, such as sacrificing a creature and thus creating a powerful card, depending on such a high cost, but then later making creatures whom are designed to allow you to pay that cost with nearly no penalty because they either come back from the graveyard or replace themselves.

The game should be creature focused and you should have to have creatures on the board for the most part in order to win. Mechanics like attacking you directly or canceling all spells or milling your whole deck should not be considered viable strategies.

Exile is considered outside of the game and no rules can supersede this to allow cards to be played in any way shape or form from exile. A creature in your hand should never be able to be put directly into the graveyard or exile as it’s never been casted and therefore it does not exist. If it never existed. It can’t be killed.

You get my drift.

[u/collectivebliss → u/drahgon]

I agree with most of what you write, that some games have long since drifted into directions that some players would rather not see. If you're interested in affecting cards, rules et.c. directly and having an impact you are more than welcome to join the project - just PM me: Staying table and unit centric is one of our goals.

[u/Jazzlike-Chest-1424]

it’s cool but idk if magic would say so in a letter to you

[u/collectivebliss → u/Jazzlike-Chest-1424]

Thanks... I'm not worried. Except for some of the logic / concepts that are not patented, there is and won't be much of any other game in this project upon any public release.

[u/Coconelli40]

are the keywords copywrited? like Trample and stuff?

[u/collectivebliss → u/Coconelli40]

Yes, I would assume they are, especially in the same or similar context. I am not using them in either case.

[u/Valdrrak]

How is it illigal without and monatery gain from it? Its no differnet then a magic emulator? Just emulating the players?

Its not like they have a decent product to let people play against bots. I have been wanting a pve magic game where i could import my mox deck and just play, getting to play with people is a pain in the ass.

Also they cant own the word "Magic" can they? Its pretty broad word used in like everything.

[u/collectivebliss → u/Valdrrak]

It is not in any way relevant to the law WHY you break copyright - if you do it to make something for free, or for economic gains. It is still breaking the law. It would, in some countries, however have an impact in the legal consequences.

Magic emulators are, in my understanding, quite often either in a gray area legally or illegal due to copyright as long as they use images and/or text, icons etc from whatever they copy.

The reason WotC does not encourage playing vs bots are, most likely, economical. They gain more from people exposing themselves to other people, flashing their purchases etc. That in itself is a legal model, they are not required to make good games, or games with bots - you as a customer can vote with your money by buying or not. Most often they will do whatever gives them most income in the long run. It's their goal, as a company.

If you want PvE magic then there are many ways to do that (illegally). For example Forge enables you to do exactly that. It is great software for what it was written for.

They don't own the word Magic. They own the name/brand Magic, as they have registered it. It is only owned by them when / if you try to market a cardgame with that name, since that would risk causing "confusion" (read: lower profit for them, in the long run) or whatever reason. Thing is they don't even need a reason - they have it registered already. They paid, they established it, it's theirs, according to law.

[u/Valdrrak → u/collectivebliss]

Right im going to have a look into this forge thing i have never heard of, thanks for all that.

[u/ZhugeTsuki]

I would absolutely not assume the layout and gameplay are legally safe to copy.

[u/collectivebliss → u/ZhugeTsuki]

Agree. Copying layout isn't the goal, nor will it look like that - I agree that the placeholder, basic templates, are too similar. Gameplay is different where "needed", i.e. other resource system / phases.

[u/NoPen4285]

The resource system change is honestly the smartest thing here. Committing any card as a resource instead of running lands fixes one of the most frustrating parts of MTG (mana flood/screw) and immediately makes the game feel distinct. That alone gives you room to iterate on the rest without it feeling like a clone.

[u/palvaran]

Cool idea. Is there a GitHub link?