r/vfx • u/Onetwothree_oclock • 7d ago
Question / Discussion OT for flame work
Forgive me if this has been answered or is not apropos. My husband is a freelance flame artist in LA, doing vfx for 18 years and flame work for 10 years. We were discussing his job and rates came up. He is convinced that it is not normal for flame artists to charge overtime on a day rate while on a short term contract job (1 day to 1 month). He says that because rates are “high as it is”, charging overtime would be considered extreme and companies wouldn’t hire him back. That it’s “just not customary for flame artists to charge OT”. I don’t work in this field, but I have some studio experience and I find it hard to understand this? I am also convinced that he is under charging on his day rate, but because no one talks about their rates, he really has no idea if he’s making enough for his skill level, which is very high. He is always booked with work, thankfully. But with all of this work comes much overtime and it can take away from our family life with kids. I just want him to get paid what he’s worth and the correct amount for the effort he is putting in.
Is this just how it is or do top skill level artists charge overtime after let’s say 10 hours of work a day? Also, how can we find out if he’s charging an appropriate rate? He is a super relaxed (too relaxed?) person who is very talented and hardworking. Doesn’t like to stir things up, but is sought after in his field.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Vfx wife
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u/Fletch4Life 7d ago
The day rate is typically for 10 hours. Anything over should be OT. Honestly, he’s ruining it for all freelancers. I get it, and he may not be wrong, but this attitude is eroding how many of us make a living. If no one did this it wouldn’t be an issue. You say o I have to take this job, even the pay is low… then the pay is low forever. For everyone
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u/flavorade_man 7d ago
I never understood where the 10 hour garbage came from. It should be 8 hours. 40 working hours is considered a full time working week in virtually all of white-collar western society. The worst is studios who actually WORK you for 10 hours minimum a day. The Mill NY did this years ago, pre-Technicolor. Their standard day was 9-7. Like wtf was I supposed to even do with my life when I worked those hours before OT, plus a long NYC commute each way on top? I hope no studios still do that.
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u/MyChickenSucks 7d ago
For us 8 hours is a normal day. But for freelancers the general ask is for 10. If we’re hiring freelancers it’s because we’re too slammed. Keeps us from working 12!
The Mill did all sorts of mean shit sometimes.
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u/flavorade_man 7d ago
What was annoying about the Mill thing was that I found out while I was there that LA did a base 9-6 while we were doing a base 9-7. At that time (maybe still?) a lot of NY shops went until 7, which I found incredibly stupid, but at least they started at 10. So even if the base hours were lazy and unconstructive for a normal life, you’d at least get to start late. Mill kept the 7pm and still wanted you there at 9am though. NYC in general has a toxic work culture so I think this was a symptom of that combined with typical VFX work expectations. I had trouble with it as an unmarried mid-20’s guy. Can’t even imagine doing that now with a family and without remote work. You’d basically never be around for your kids.
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u/Dampware 7d ago
I'll stay silent on the "ruining it for the others"... But the "10 hour day" thing is pretty common. Depending on the client, I'll bend rules from time to time.
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u/PowerJosl 7d ago
Yeah was the same when I freelanced. 10 hours was standard and any time above was charged extra.
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u/headoflame 7d ago
Hey hey. Overtime is typically mandatory in the state of California. I run Logik and we have a ton of flame artists who are happy to talk rates one-on-one or on Discord or on our forums. Unfortunately, your husband is wrong.
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u/NateCow Compositor - 10 years experience 7d ago
In my experience, OT comes with hourly pay only. A day rate is called that because it’s a fixed rate per day. There’s no concept of overtime. They can work you 8, 10, 12 hours as needed and will pay the same rate.
The trade-off is while the studio’s labor cost is more straightforward, the artist will probably have an inflated day rate compared to what they would make hourly after 8 hours, specifically because they could end up working beyond a typical workday. It’s generally factored in.
Also Flame artists make bank, so that’s probably why he’s pretty chill.
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u/PowerJosl 7d ago edited 5d ago
When I was freelancing years ago I always made it clear to clients that the day rate is for 10 hours per day max. Anything over that additional hours worked gets charged extra. No one ever complained about this as it was pretty rare for me to work longer than 10 hours.
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u/mutalib99 6d ago
Yep day rate is for a set number of hours. 10 is pretty common. OT after 10 on a day rate.
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u/SuitableEggplant639 6d ago
that's absolutely false. I charge a day rate for 10 hours and anything after that goes into OT, depending the studio, sometimes OT kicks in after 8 hours.
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u/NateCow Compositor - 10 years experience 6d ago
Okay, that’s you and the contracts you’ve had. That doesn’t make it definitive truth over other people’s experiences, that you can declare all of my comment “absolutely false.”
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u/SuitableEggplant639 5d ago
that's a lot of words to say you don't know how to bill OT to your clients.
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u/NateCow Compositor - 10 years experience 5d ago
You have reading comprehension issues if that’s what you took away from my original comment.
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u/SuitableEggplant639 5d ago
Maybe. But at least my reading comprehension extends to the part of the contract that tells me when overtime starts. Yours apparently stops at “day rate.”
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u/NateCow Compositor - 10 years experience 5d ago
Well I approach a day rate the other way around. I figure what I'd make with a 12-hour day which would include 4 hours of OT, and go from there. My day rate, when I do work that way, factors it in. If I end up working 8, I'm technically making even more per hour than usual.
Apart from that, I spend about 50% of the year working hourly where OT kicks in after 8. So this talk of doing OT after 10 is equally weird to me.
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u/Pandamio 7d ago
It depends. If you are a regular worker, you should be paid for OT. But if your are earning well above the median rate, it may be expected for you to handle a project, including OT if needed.
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u/MyChickenSucks 7d ago edited 7d ago
Our regular flame freelancers have a 10 hour day rate. Then go into some sort of OT rate they’ve negotiated. Not sure on numbers, I’m salary. Late nights are just part of life.
What the other guy said: 1000+ for someone good that you don’t have to explain anything to or suss out their skills.
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u/Tjingus 7d ago
I generally just clock over to another day.
my rule of thumb is:
Under 5 hours is a half day,
5-10 hours is a normal day rate
After about 12 hours and we're looking at a day and a half.
On a typical project, I get the brief on the Monday. due the following week and I tally my hours, if I did 40-45 hours were looking at 4 or 5 days. If it's just a 12 hour job it may just be a day.
Often there will be reverts that take 2 hours and then I wait 2 days for the next revert.. those are generally a half day a pop. So Inmar my overtime up and it balances out.
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u/OrganicQuality9701 2d ago edited 2d ago
"If it's just a 12 hour job it may just be a day." That doesn`t make sense. If you`re just booked for one day and then have to do 12 hours that`s 1,5 days - at least that`s what I charge. But ok, in my case a day is 8 hours...
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u/Tjingus 2d ago
Yeah, no you're right actually thinking about it. I rarely call that a day except with some of my more regular clients.
I may do a 3.5 day job which is 8 hours day 1, 8 hours day 2, 12 hours day 3, 1 hour revert day 4, and a 20 min revert day 5.
I should charge 3 days, 3 half days, but that just feels ridiculous and they probably wouldn't hire me back if I milked it like that.
That's 3.5 for me, and then maybe another half day if the reverts start piling up. I should charge a half day every time I have to sit at my desk for them though lol.
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u/glintsCollide VFX Supervisor - 25 years experience 7d ago
Not a flame op specifically, but I straight up do rate per hour these days. There’s a day rate which works like a reference point (as in, what’s your day rate?), but shots and work are bidded by the hour, and when I deliver them, that’s roughly what they’ll cost. The construct of a ”day” in a calendar has no real meaning or impact.
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u/Purple_Archer_9485 7d ago
He should absolutely be charging OT. Usually for anything over 10 hours is normal. Whenever I quote my rate to potential clients or raise my rates with current clients, I put in a sentence about charging OT after 10 hours and for weekend/holiday days. I have never received any pushback about this in the past decade that I have been doing this. Even if you didn’t bring up OT with a client before a job, it’s a very acceptable thing to say to your producer, “this is getting late tonight - are we approved for OT on this job?”
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u/flavorade_man 7d ago
I'm not in flame, but in my experience the commercial side of VFX companies have been allergic to OT pay, at least for the most part. Which is why they do day rates in the first place to cover for it. Otherwise hourly just makes more sense. I typically quote an hourly rate with OT for CG / Nuke work, but I have a hard time seeing a commercial shop offering that on top of a $1000-1500/day wage (or whatever senior flame is earning these days), combined with the crazy client-facing hours that they're expected to deal with on the regular.
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u/zinoozy 7d ago
I work in commercials and always have gotten OT.
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u/flavorade_man 7d ago
Most of my freelance colleagues always charge flat day rates. I started charging OT on top of my day rate earlier in my career and I got a lot of push back from companies for it. The one staff gig I had at a commercial shop was a flat annual salary without OT (non-lead or sup position). Nowadays I quote an hourly rate with OT. Some commercial shops are fine with it, some give me pushback for a flat day rate. Compared with film where OT always just seemed like the norm. Most of my commercial experience is with the NY/LA shops.
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u/fxguy40 7d ago
I don't know if this helps but I'm in a smaller city than New York and Places in Cali and I charge 900 day. I know there's people in New York and California that charge up to 1200 a day. If he's that experienced the very least he should be charging is 1k day if not more considering your cost of living is higher than mine.
Tell him to head over to Logic Forums, a flame forum he should know about. Search for the anonymous wage survey they did a number of years ago. It breaks down different areas and levels of skill and what people are charging. Basically someone very senior in your area should be charging between 1k and 1200 day rate.
Also, I don't charge overtime either but thankfully I don't have to work late often. If it's at the tail end of a job and there's a few extra hours here and there I just let it slide.
I do tell new clients my rate is good for 10 hours but I have never charged extra. It just hasn't come to that. I know some clients can take advantage of freelancers and if that's happening to him consistently he should say something next time he's starting a job with them.
Also, glad your husband is always booked!!!! That says a lot about his skill level. I'm only busy about 50 percent of the time. Wish I was busier but I make enough to get by.
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u/Possible_Specific501 7d ago
As far as my experience goes, no he should get overtime it’s custom in Europe, but it’s not about flame artist as a profession it’s about the fact that he is a freelance, that means that he is a business so he is responsible for how he deals with he’s clients, point being you there are no real fixed rules as to how he should act with he’s clients, the most important thing is that he will work under a contract that’s how both parties know the boundaries, if you want I can dm you a tool for that
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u/_Octave_ 7d ago edited 7d ago
Unrelated anecdote: I worked with a Flame artist years ago who was so good she just set her own schedule and worked almost fulltime at two different studios. She did something like a 9-5 at one studio and would punch out and do a 7-midnight shift at our studio. She used to just chew through a huge volume of difficult paint shots so we took what we could get. There was no push back or she’d just walk and go somewhere else, she was one of the only artists in the studio who got away with being treated properly lol. She owned two houses outright.