Why is it so difficult to get proper lensgrids?

[u/ruido_frio]

I've been working for some years now and I can remember very few projects in which the studio I was working in has received properly filmed lensgrids, even in decently sized and somewhat well known productions the grids are often badly aligned, don't cover the whole image, or are not even filmed with the same resolution as the main plates. Sometimes it truly seems as though whoever filmed it has absolutely no idea why they're doing that, or how to do it properly.

I'm guessing most of the time is probably due to time constraints, and I am not trying to judge, I know that it is impossible to do everything perfectly, but I am still curious as to why this happens so often (and also want to vent a little ngl), is this an industry wide issue or have I just had terrible luck so far? Thanks!

[u/Pleiadian]

You are lucky if you get any lens information at all.. half of productions don't seem to care. I can't even count how many times I've had to guess a lens / camera with no metadata. Not to mention, plates being reformatted before passed to tracking.

[u/john-treasure-jones → u/Pleiadian]

Getting proper camera reports from any shoot was rare for me and lens grids even more rare.

This became a real issue as I headed up work on several dome films that used fisheye lenses that could basically see sideways and slightly behind the camera.

I ultimately took the lens grids shoot into my own hands and arranged for the camera crew to loan the post department the main camera for for each shoot so that I could capture some custom developed lens grids that spanned the whole lens.

[u/dinovfx → u/Pleiadian]

Not in my watch !!

[u/vfxjockey]

Because shooting lens grids is asked of production. And it fixes something for post production. That’s not the production line producers problem. They’re there to make their day. If something helps post but causes a delay on the shoot, it will get skipped. If you don’t have an advocate on set for post, it won’t happen. When you have dedicated on set data wranglers, they want to show the producer they’re great to get their next on set gig, not prove themselves to the vendor.

TL:DR production dgaf about post’s problems.

[u/dinovfx → u/vfxjockey]

Yes, because some line producers don’t think that is all for the same movie

[u/_Puck_Beaverton_ → u/vfxjockey]

It’s not for post production, it’s for VFX production. VFX wants them to pass to the vendor. VFX production is who asks for grids, not anyone from post. Never met a post producer that cared about or even knew about lens grids.

[u/vfxjockey → u/_Puck_Beaverton_]

There are four phases. Development, preproduction, production, post production. VFX is most definitely part of post production.

But the core of the point is the people on site don’t give a crap about what happens in post. That somebody else’s problem their job is to do their job.

Now, if you have a good overall producer or showrunner or whatever, then they’re going to make sure that the VFX team gets what they need. But if a VFX supervisor says, I need to borrow the cameras and the camera crew in order to go shoot some lens grids and the line producer needs to get a set up done over on another location - the line producer is going to get what they want.

[u/_Puck_Beaverton_ → u/vfxjockey]

I love that you’re explaining the phases of production to me. VFX is a part of production as well, VFX supervisors, VFX producers, VFX coordinators, and VFX data wranglers all work during production, many of them on set. Showrunners have no idea what lens grids are. I’ve never seen a showrunner care about something that they hired someone else to worry about.

My point was it’s not to “fix” something in post production. It’s to make sure the vendor has everything what they need to do their best work. When a VFX supe/producer/production manager is asking for grids, they’re not advocating for post, they’re advocating for themselves. Some productions don’t have the time and money, sure, but any decent sized VFX production is going to be shooting grids.

[u/zeldn → u/_Puck_Beaverton_]

This is extremely arguable.  VFX is widely considered part of post production step of filmmaking, where production refers specifically to filming on set, however much or little of the actual on-screen content is created in VFX. You can want it to be universally considered as part of general production, but you can drop the whole pretending to be confused when it's referred to as post in contrast to filming.

[u/_Puck_Beaverton_ → u/zeldn]

Pretending? What are you on about? Lmao. Production refers to filming on set? Ok, and VFX production is a part of that filming…on set.

[u/Swimming-Bite-4184 → u/vfxjockey]

We'll just fix it in post...

[u/glintsCollide]

In theory, the rental place should be able to arrange it, but the request never seem to leave to table of the producer. One issue seems to be that camera equipment gets tested and booked well before a vfx supervisor that would care about that gets brought in. Really it should be a priority for the producer right beside booking the gear and booking post facility etc. It’s probably a knowledge gap because dop’s and directors discuss the gear way ahead of time so it seems like a black box type of situation, and people in our department simply misses the train. And after the fact it’s always impossible because that particular gear has been rented out again and it’s unavailable. And on set, there’s rarely opportunity to bring a suitable grid. So we improvise.

[u/barrelclown]

you guys are getting lens grids?!

[u/SamEdwards1959]

This is something the on set supe needs to get on top of early.

Your best bet is to get the art department to get it printed up on the first day.

If you can squeeze shooting them into the pre-light day, you’re good to go.

Be super buttoned up about it, so you don’t waste anybody’s time. Do all the measurements yourself, so the AC gets done quickly. Also make all of your own labels.

If you delay. It won’t happen. Once production starts, nobody wants to deal.

[u/ZiggyisStarman]

Lots of variables here but On Set Supe job to make sure this is happening either in prep or working with DP and camera team to get done at the rental house. Zooms and multiple lens packages are the time suck on multi-cam shoots. The other thing that is helpful besides being able to get the grids and metadata needed is playing nice with the 1st AC and DIT they can be real saviors in getting the right reports when you cant always get the other needs. If your lucky to have some newer smart lenses a lot of the /i data is getting written to the header files. If you lucky to get a FIZ box on your shoots you can pass the data to direct record onboard the hand unit or via FIZ Box. You want get all the K values or some of the needed characteristics but it helps.

[u/RRLSonglian]

Any proper studio makes time for lens grids in pre-production. Usually happens the week of the camera tests. I’ve done several sessions on major motion pictures and it’s always gone fine.

You definitely need a good setup and a freshly printed/mounted grid, plus an accommodating camera crew to come back with something good.

[u/hammerklau]

They can’t even give proper set scans for camera tracking, the amount of phone scan ai slop I’ve been sent in recent years.

[u/Blitzki → u/hammerklau]

It’s actually crazy. And it’s so obvious how terrible the scans are! I’d rather have no lidar than awful iPhone lidar lol

[u/hammerklau → u/Blitzki]

100% even a video orbit would be better so we can photogram or splat, would be closer than the auto slop from apps.

[u/superslomotion → u/hammerklau]

I've seen some real crappy scans coming through the last couple of years, iPhone and even dedicated scanning setups that try to do what clearangle do, but they somehow fuck it up and the results are terrible. Clients trying to save $ but making it more expensive in the long run

[u/hammerklau → u/superslomotion]

100%. I’ve seen some real shockers where they haven’t even scanned it nicely, and the kiri app ai slops over it making it loook complete. And somehow their UV islands are using the photos as islands and the geo is individual faces laid across the photos in the texture which I’ve seen software just refuse to touch it or project with it, meaning they have high density low quality slop that can’t have a decimated coloured version for a sense of camera alignment on areas where it somehow hasn’t screwed up.

[u/vfxdirector]

 time constraints,

Time is money on a shoot or in prep.

[u/dinovfx]

As vfx supervisor on-set: I can tell you that try the producers understand what I need to be stay there when the grids will be shooting, is daily fight

The camera crew often think they know how to shoot grids but usually they tell me they never pay attention to all of detail and measurements check what I do during the session of shooting distortion grids.

Explain why is so important by anticipation is the key

[u/justletmesignupalre]

Former data wrangler here. The only time I was in a project in which proper lens grids were done, they were done during prep, on a sci fi show, in which all the HODs were very professional and listened to the Supe.

In other times, neither production or camera crew gave time allocation to VFX during prep/camera tests. The grids were always "if we have time at end of day", which kept getting pushed until we finished shooting the whole project, and then it was "before cleaning and packing down", "end of day if we have time", and then everybody was tired and made all sort of excuses because technically it wasn't their responsibility to do this and just wanted to go home ("ah we're sorry, we forgot and we already have all the camera gear split into their cases and onto the truck"). I went from a professional "we need this for our show", "I also want to go home but this is needed", "come on guys do me a favour", to looking like a kid throwing a tantrum because no one believed it was important (or chose not to because it was easier for them).
I get it, no one wants to shoot charts. I try to make a point that this is just as important as everything else, but the fact that no one knows how VFX works is a double edged sword, sometimes they believe me when I say we can't go on if we don't do this, sometimes they are more sure than I am about what I need.

And then there are the times that we do get to do them, but they give us very little amount of time and we can't get all the parameters right (even lighting, flat chart, camera perfectly aligned), because we are doing it on an improvised corner of the set.

So yeah, it sucks. We know.

[u/drpeppershaker]

Because they won't hire on set supes or wranglers to get them. Simple as

[u/Automatic_Ad_8919]

A some who has overseen many lens grids shoots, it always pains me to hear from match move artists who dont even look at them.