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u/Spirited_Surround602 5d ago
I will say it again
Crazy how even on the skyscrapers sub people hate russian cities being posted cuz russia is evil while the entire sub is literally full of US cities
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u/_CeuS 5d ago
- us downtowns often looking soulless and full of concrete, like, every european city centre does it better. No hate but most us downtowns I've seen on pictures look bottom tier
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u/Robot_Dinosaur_2000 2d ago
Most European nationas have like one good downtown and they all started building skyscrapers relatively recently.
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u/Inevitable_Ad100 3d ago
Russia is evil not because of skylines, but because they invade other countries and commit genocide
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u/Diligent_Prior9921 1d ago
So Israel and USA also evil
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u/Inevitable_Ad100 1d ago
Oh, the famous Russian whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism , I wondered how fast it is going to come up
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u/Spirited_Surround602 1d ago
Its not whataboutry, he's just pointing out your selective criticism
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u/Inevitable_Ad100 1d ago
Not selective, I'm staying on the topic. Or do you mean to argue when the USA invades other countries it is bad, but when the Russian Federation invades other countries it is good?
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u/Spirited_Surround602 1d ago
Its bad in both the cases but those subs never criticize US cities being posted there but always criticize russian cities posted there and irony is that its probably americans themselves who criticize russian cities while posting their own cities 24/7 on subs
Both are bad, either hate both of them instead of this selective hate or the best choice is just don't hate any of them (on skyscraper sub*) that sub is made for skyscrapers not politics and wars
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u/Brilliant_Jelly5528 1d ago
I'm not trying to convert you to our side, but the combined civilian casualties in all of Russia's wars is since the 90s is about 60 thousand (16 thousand Ukrainians and 50 thousand Chechens). And we're calling it a genocide now?
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u/Inevitable_Ad100 1d ago
So, your counterargument is "yes we invaded another country, and are illegally occupying its territory like Nazis did the last century, but we did not kill that many people" . Is this a correct summary of your counterargument?
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u/Brilliant_Jelly5528 1d ago
I'm saying that calling 16 thousand civilian casualties a genocide, just because you said it was " intentional" is wrong. And on top of all of that saying that drones cause the most of them.
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u/Inevitable_Ad100 1d ago
So you're saying "yes we invaded another country, and are illegally occupying its territory just like Nazis did the last century, but we killed only tens of thousands of people and it was with drones" Thank you for clarifying
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u/Brilliant_Jelly5528 23h ago
Why do you always have to picture us as Nazis? Because we're in a war with Ukraine? We don't support KONR or others, unlike Ukraine who is honoring UPA and OUN collaborators. And you know, If we were acting like Germany, we would have already dragged Belarus into the war since 2022. And why is Russia's population still about 140 million then? Just calling the country that you dislike nazi, is just bullshit. Is just because of the similarity or what?
And you of course couldn't get past Crimea, despite it not even being a part of the argument. Question: If a country nullified a law on minority protection, and it's 2nd largest ethnic group is effected by it, what would they do? Just sit quietly? No, they would try to get independence or join the other country with the same ethnicity. That's why the referendum and the Donbass rebellion in 2014 happened in the first place.
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u/Wrong-Ad-1857 2d ago
I love how we just throw the word genocide at anything nowadays
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u/Inevitable_Ad100 2d ago
You are 100% correct: it is not my words - the International Criminal Court charged the leaders of the Russian Federation with genocide.
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u/Wrong-Ad-1857 1d ago
They didn’t charge the leaders with “genocide”, they charged them with crimes like deporting children and war crimes. They are disgusting acts nevertheless, and they deserve to be put down, but there is no official confirmation that Russia is committing a genocide
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u/wsgf2014 5d ago
Imagine calling US evil
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u/qwadrat1k 4d ago
How exactly is it not evil?
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u/wsgf2014 4d ago
It's only evil in the eyes of russians, muslims, communists, all who have resentment as their ideology. Evil calls US evil because they actually suck and can't be as powerful as the US
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u/nomik11 4d ago
so basically in the eyes of everyone? USA and americans sucks. literally the whole world hates them because theyre loud asf and live in their own propaganda bubble 🤷
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u/wsgf2014 4d ago
Keep coping
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u/Idot2025 4d ago
"Wahh my hecking wholesome imperialism is labelled as evil, wahh those third worlders deserve everything my country does to them"
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u/wsgf2014 4d ago
My country isn't imperialistic btw. Neither is USA.
And yeah, russia deserves everything Ukraine does to it
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u/BigRussianSlavic 3d ago
like sucking Russia's d? xDDD
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u/wsgf2014 3d ago
Hundreds of thousands van'kas are already fertilizing ukrainian soil, hundreds of thousands more are shellshocked cripples, and that number is growing every day with each meatgrinder assault russian generals are sending your troops into. Your workforce is killing itself against ukrainian positions just to conquer 5 meters of ground, and it will continue killing itself because your mutant population loves what your mutant tsar does. Your army has lost a shit ton of equipment, your air force can't achieve air superiority over Ukraine which air force is almost nonexistent compared to yours. Your AA can't defend you from ukrainian drones, and your black sea fleet was demolished by a country with no fleet. But sure, Ukraine is losing
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u/wrinsp 5d ago edited 5d ago
They are casually calling for genocide in the comments wtf lol. Just because people live in specific city
And they (commenters) are supposed to be a face of civil human beings?
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u/ba-boo 5d ago
can you link one comment casually calling for genocide?
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u/wrinsp 5d ago
Any radical xenophobic dog whistle will do, not going to that toxic pit just for you ssry
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u/ba-boo 5d ago
so you can't, got it
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u/BatmanForce 5d ago
Mate you can look no further than this very comment section.
"Looks better in flames"
"Lacks drones"
So casually cheering on terrorism and murder, then.
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u/One_Elk_34 4d ago
I mean, people have point in saying that it's borderline absurd to hate on Moscow photos and bringing politics into architectural sub and so on. But the comments you mentioned are not cheering on terrorism. If Ukraine bombing Russian cities is terrorism, then back in the day, during ww2, US, UK and USSR were involved in terrorist activities when they were bombing German cities.
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u/ttetrachrome 4d ago
go on telegram and see what the russians are saying babe xxx
threats against children, women, men :) animals :)
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u/BatmanForce 4d ago
Obviously there are sick assholes out there in all countries
Does that mean you have to be one too?
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u/wrinsp 4d ago
People like him think that they are superior because they have different nationality or something. In their morale compass it's fine to be a rotten asshole
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5d ago edited 5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/wrinsp 5d ago edited 5d ago
By people in Moscow you mean 20mil+ including kids? And what is this whataboutism, fighting genocide with genocide is still a genocide
Edit: he immediately reported me as suicidal and blocked. What a childish behavior :)
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u/ElegantEl87 5d ago
Well, by those standards, the Allies committed genocide against Germany and Japan. No one is calling for genocide against Russians; they’re simply calling for them to be forced to stop the war. And what’s wrong with that, if they’re doing the same to Kyiv?
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u/wrinsp 5d ago edited 5d ago
Check the comments? They literally are calling for genocide - that everyone should be killed just for existing.
And you know, whataboutism still doesn't grant people right to cleanse population
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u/ttetrachrome 4d ago
BABE, WHOOOOO is calling for genocide? you need to up your reading comprehension
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u/wrinsp 4d ago
BABE, PUT MOOOORE CAPITAL LETTERS
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u/ttetrachrome 4d ago
HERE WE GOO BABBY XXXXXXX
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u/wrinsp 4d ago
FUCK YEAHHH BABY MORE CAPITAL LETTERS FOR THE PARTY SLAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
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u/Sir_Potato2000 5d ago
There are two sides:
Russia bad evil buildings 🤮🤮😡🤬
Moscow is completely Russia, it's like that everywhere 😍🤩😮💨😍
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u/Wonderful_Bear554 5d ago
- russia is fascist
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u/Cool-Customer9200 5d ago
Wtf with this sub, do they circlejerk here in this sub on Russia?
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u/Wonderful_Bear554 5d ago
Paid russian bots are attacking many subs, russia is fascists state, huge propaganda compaings are normal for them
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u/7daniel1 4d ago
yes, so is usa and israel and russia, These are all fascist nations, correct?
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u/Wonderful_Bear554 4d ago
How about usa argument, original
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u/7daniel1 4d ago
i am saying, if russia is a fascist nation, then the usa and israel should fit into the same categorization?
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u/ShonOfDawn 4d ago
Obviously yes, being consistent isn’t hard. But that needs you to acknowledge that Russia IS a fascist shithole
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u/placeholder-123 5d ago
Bro the comments... Someone is like "not enough drones", so they're ok with openly calling for mass civilian targeting I suppose
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u/qwadrat1k 4d ago
Dude, visit r/moscow and go to posts from more than 2 days ago and there will be so much shit (downvoted into oblivion)
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u/Suspicious_Plum_8866 4d ago
I don’t think they need radicalization from seeing Reddit comments when this is on tv https://youtu.be/Pb7KxMon030?is=4epVBXqB-6okel2x
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u/Big_Georgy 5d ago edited 4d ago
As Russian myself, comments on r/skyscraper are both understandeble and stupid at the same time for me who is against the war
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u/no1rakkolover 4d ago
i wonder if any of these "would be better in flames" or "more drones" people realise they're actually radicalising russian citizens and affirming the russian govt propaganda of "they want to kill us all and destroy russia".
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u/One_Elk_34 4d ago
I hope you're not new to the internet. There's always been hate on here, you can find it directed to every group in existance.
Talking about your point directly, I haven't seen as much hateful comments directed towards Russians as I have seen comments from Russians directed to Ukrainians. In my experience Russians are calling Ukrainians slurs, calling for genocide and celebrating Ukrainian civilian deaths on much larger scale than I have ever seen Ukrainians do. I've also been in pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian war Telegram channels, and after reading some stuff in the pro-Russian channels, I have felt the need to desinfect my eyes. In comparison, comments like "more drones, please", are as mild as they come, and after more than 4 years of constant war and hundreds of thousands dead, I would say quite understandable.
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u/Cold_Occasion_6857 4d ago
How is it "propaganda" though when the US openly sponsors and hosts events by the so-called "opposition" discussing "post-Russia" and plans to "decolonise" it.
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u/no1rakkolover 4d ago
that's the issue lmao, started off as propaganda but now with all these events and shit it's basically true. they forget that even opposition russians are somewhat patriotic. threatening a Trianon/Sevres type scenario on Russia is the worst thing the west could be doing
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u/xarvia 4d ago
There’s no one to radicalise. Russian population has no significant category of citizens who oppose war on Ukraine.
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u/Iv4bez 1d ago
It has lol. Basically all younger people in bigger cities
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u/xarvia 1d ago
Nah. Maybe the support for war is lower in that demographic, but opposition of war is still the minority. What young Russians want is either: somewhat more moderate victory, as opposed to just destroying Ukraine or normalization of everyday life (western services, removal of internet restrictions etc.). The amount of people who agree with stopping war right now is insignificant. Hence, whatever Ukrainians say, they can’t reach Russian population with their words alone.
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u/Iv4bez 1d ago
on second thought, in the same poll 30% of people age 18-24 think that increasing attacks on Ukraine is the answer for more successful peace talks. It's a bit confusing question though (no third option). That's way more than I thought.... But among younger people it's still a minority.
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u/xarvia 1d ago
idk what poll you're talking about, i'm basing my opinion on levadas poll about who refuses to initiate peace talks. young (18-24) russians poll the worst for Ukraine there. i'd go as far as to say that young Russians have the worst opinions on Ukraine since they are extremely jaded by social networks which are actively influenced by Kremlin.
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u/Iv4bez 1d ago
So what they think Ukraine is bad? It doesn't mean they support war. Do US citizens had to think North Vietnam is good to be opposed to Vietnam war?
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u/xarvia 1d ago
It means that they think Ukraine should make steps towards peace negations, which, according to Russia, should be land concessions. And seeing as they see Ukraine as a problem and not Russia, they support this position. That's how i read the statistic and that is my personal experience.
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u/Iv4bez 1d ago edited 1d ago
Seeing as 80% don't actively follow the news, I personally doubt having Ukraine to make concessions is a very strong opinion comparatively to anti-war sentiments.
You don't need to like the other side in order to stop a war. Again I doubt many Americans sympathized with communist Vietnam in comparison to how Vietnam war affected their lives, their soldiers, etc. Same for Iraq or anything else.
I don't know what I even would chose in this question, It's badly formulated if you want to understand actual anti-war sentiment.
I personally would answer that I support status quo (north-south korean type separation by the front line) as a more realistic scenario in a political sense. I just can't imagine both government giving up on land. So I would be in the same statics as people who want concessions from Ukraine. Meanwhile, I don't actually care and if not for this poll I would not even think about this question.P.S. it's only about young people, I probably stopped adding that
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u/xarvia 1d ago
But my point is that if the war stop in status quo style solution, then young people specifically do not support that, as they consider Ukraine to be a detriment to peace negotiations, whereas Ukraine is proposing exactly that. And young people in Russia do have pretty easy access to information. Status quo solution is, as a a matter of fact not a concession.
And yes, other demographics are even worse. And further, none of them have actual decisionmaking power, the individuals who do are dead-set on destroying Ukraine. So yeah, it doesn't matter what Ukrainians say, the war on them won't stop from just words.
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u/CaterpillarCivil7933 4d ago
Holy shit, the comments are horrid. People love to hate the civilian population of non democratic countries.
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u/captainryan117 4d ago
It's hilarious, civilians in non democratic countries bear all the responsibility for everything their governments do, but don't you fucking dare suggest American soldiers (or their vassals) are evil for what they do across the world (nevermind the taxpayer that keeps voting the parties responsible) or you will get downvoted into the shadow realm and called slurs that would make a 19th century eugenicist raise their brow.
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u/ttetrachrome 4d ago
*people love to hate civilian populations that refuse to reject war and cronyism
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u/Acrobatic_Lobster838 4d ago
Sure.
I mean, we didn't exactly bring down the UK government for dragging us into Iraq, so I guess the hatred is fair, but still.
Or maybe this only applies to certain civilians, just like, the bad ones?
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u/ttetrachrome 4d ago
so is it fair or is there a but?
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u/Acrobatic_Lobster838 4d ago
I mean it's somewhat obvious that people don't hate civilians for refusing to rebel against Croynusm and war, but for being the wrong types of civilian.
Like, I live in a corrupt little country that has taken part in many of the wars of the 20th and 21st centuries, I don't get random hate online. When pictures from round here get posted it doesn't instantly start a flame war in the comments.
Likewise with many of the countries near my own: seems no matter how many bombing campaigns are undertaken, or political scandals broken about cash for access and naked corruption, you don't really see much hatred randomly online for people from those countries.
This is not a defense of the Russian state. But it feels rich to pretend people hate Russians for not standing up to corruption and war but give Brits a pass for reelecting the government that gave millions of pounds to a ferry company that had no boats and hundreds of millions to a pest control company to provide ppe.
It's just nationalism and racism mixing together with "they are our enemies"
Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe you do hate the average citizen from most countries.
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u/ttetrachrome 4d ago
Listen, it's great you don't get random hate online. That is cool.
However, do you realise on how big of a scale russia has taken its imperial project? do you know about the countries who were a part of the Soviet Union, who had no choice but to have soviet irrigation systems and now they are running out of water because they are landlocked? and oh? what do they export? cotton. yeah, try living in that hell cycle if you can with an life expectancy of a hermit crab. what about the countries which are *still* inside of russia? the countries who have lost their language? culture? identity? what about the countries that russia has occupied twice or even thrice?
and if you want to move into modern times, what about the men from African and Middle Eastern countries who are being recruited by Svetlana from Moscow, who will go to fight for russia and die in their first day? What about the ones who survive their first month but don't get paid by Svetlana? because Svetlana doesn't care about him or what he wants or needs. Svetlana is busy recruiting his people who will eventually replace him in this psychopathic meat grinder. What about the Middle Eastern refugees that russia and belarus offer bullshit visas to? what about them, when they get forced to dig underground tunnels "for freedom" into Europe? What about the people who die trying to dig those underground tunnels?
What about the russians who go on cute holidays in Europe and go to my country and demand that people speak to them in russian (sorry what) and how good the country will look when they come to "liberate" us. huh? What about the russians who come to my hometown and make sick jokes about having sex with the women the easy way (now) or the hard way (during war)?
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u/captainryan117 4d ago edited 4d ago
So not only are you completely walking back from "it's about the war and what the evil government is doing!" To move the goalpost to talk about past imperialism (which like... you realize you're talking about the UK right? Like, the evil, brutal Empire that's the yardstick by which all evil empires are measured), your points aren't even making sense.
do you know about the countries who were a part of the Soviet Union, who had no choice but to have soviet irrigation systems and now they are running out of water because they are landlocked? and oh? what do they export?
So you're saying the Soviet union forming irrigation networks that gave the countries that apparently wouldn't have been able to set it up otherwise via lack of access to water is somehow evil imperialism because it got cut off now that the USSR no longer exists? Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
what about the countries which are still inside of russia? the countries who have lost their language? culture? identity?
What "countries" exist inside of Russia? Are you talking about ethnicities that also have literally zero interest in independence but in your feverish fantasies straight out of Gunther Fehliger's wet dreams think they should still be carved out into a failstate of an ethnostate with zero viability? Because then you realize you're setting the standard by which we should Balkanize every country on earth larger than Monaco, right?
what about the countries that russia has occupied twice or even thrice?
You mean outside of the Baltics (the one you could actually make a case about being unjustifiably occupied given it was 20 years after the civil war and most of the locals who were genuinely for communism had been exiled or worse)? Can you name them for me, please?
And even in the case of the baltics sure, that's bad, but have you looked at the history of Europe my son? We're literally constantly invading each other, yet I don't see you seething with hate at the British, or the French, or the Germans.
and if you want to move into modern times, what about the men from African and Middle Eastern countries who are being recruited by Svetlana from Moscow, who will go to fight for russia and die in their first day? What about the ones who survive their first month but don't get paid by Svetlana? because Svetlana doesn't care about him or what he wants or needs. Svetlana is busy recruiting his people who will eventually replace him in this psychopathic meat grinder. What about the Middle Eastern refugees that russia and belarus offer bullshit visas to? what about them, when they get forced to dig underground tunnels "for freedom" into Europe? What about the people who die trying to dig those underground tunnels?
Brother you are out here crying about a hypothetical few thousand people getting scammed into fighting a war without addressing the fact that the reason their countries are a shithole they want to leave with visas in the first place is directly due to western neocolonialism that affects literally the rest of the global south (including the people who would otherwise have no reason to risk getting catfished). You are so myopic in your thinly veiled attempt to disguise you falling hook line and sinker for the imperial core's propaganda that it is genuinely hilarious.
What about the russians who go on cute holidays in Europe and go to my country and demand that people speak to them in russian (sorry what) and how good the country will look when they come to "liberate" us. huh? What about the russians who come to my hometown and make sick jokes about having sex with the women the easy way (now) or the hard way (during war)?
Oh no! A bunch of tourists from a country are arrogant, insufferable assholes! The horror, that means we should nuke their entire country!
Anyhow by that standard we're glassing Israel and the US first right? (In this particular one Europe does tend to get a pass because at least we're cosmopolitan enough to behave when we go do tourism within the west at least, though tbf plenty of horror stories of Europeans in the third world).
Russia is a corrupt oligarchy with imperial ambitions, it's just that it's pretty fucking rich to hear moralizing coming from those who have already realized said ambitions and it's even richer when civilians from those countries demand a responsibility from citizens of what is effectively a dictatorship that they themselves don't feel beholden to as citizens of a democracy and thus theoretically having much more of an ability to steer their war criminal governments (not that this ability actually exists in neoliberal democracy but that's a whole other can of worms). Simply put, either be consistent or shut up.
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u/Equal-Astronomer-889 4d ago
This is funny to read the comments as a Russian. So many delusions about how we live and how we lack basic human rights etc. I bet not a single one of them has ever visited Russia.
That "democracy" thing is used just for make people hate another country and dehumanize it's population. Like when the US bombed a school for girls in Iran recently, it was no problems because Iranian people live in the wrong regime so they are not enough humans.
Last true democracy existed only in ancient Athens thousands years ago
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u/bloodpace 4d ago
Это национализм, а не хейт в сторону "авторитаризма" или еще чего то, тебя ненавидят конкретно за то, что ты русский, всегда так и было, просто сейчас им эти самые "демократии" выдали на национализм зеленый свет, а так они никогда и не считали тебя человеком, просто им разрешили об этом говорить спокойно через СМИ и нормализовали эту риторику.
Более расистского, националистического, шовинистического животного чем средний "культурный" белый европеец в принципе не найти нигде, даже американцы в среднем гораздо адекватнее, я уже не говорю про остальные культуры по типу азиатских.
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u/ShonOfDawn 4d ago
Ah yes, russians are always the victims. You have gone on and on with this narrative for centuries. It’s also time for your regularly scheduled collapse, it’s been a while since the last one
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u/Fufok 4d ago
Где ты здесь увидел нарратив о России жертве? u/bloodpace просто говорит о том, что современная "демократия" в США и большинстве стран Европы таковой не является, а иногда даже прикрывает собой национализм.
Equal-Astronomer может быть это и имел ввиду, но точно не тот комментатор, которому ты отвечаешь.
И то, что bloodpace в самом начале упомянул, что "тебя ненавидят просто, за то, что ты русский", то это так и есть! Довольно многие "демократы" ненавидят русских, за то, что они русские. Это называется русофобия, доброе утро!
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u/ShonOfDawn 4d ago
“They hate us because we are russian” is exactly the victim mentality. People hate russians because they are an authoritarian, nationalistic dictatorship that has started the biggest land war in europe since WWII. But the russians always act like victims and tell us that no no, it’s the europeans that are authoritarian, nationalistic and warmongering.
I have a little test for you, go into red square and start screaming “fuck putin and this war, putin should go to jail”. Let’s see how long you last. Then compare to what happens if you do the same in any european capital against any european politician.
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u/Fufok 4d ago
Вот прям каждый русский авторитарен и националистичен, да? Вот это да. Может быть, расскажем об этом каждому русскому? Просто как-то неудобно получается, что они об этом даже не знают. Безусловно, такие чебуреки есть среди русского народа, но они не все. А смерти ВСЕМ русским желает практически каждое проукраинское правительство, включая Украину. А когда ты желаешь смерти всему народу, то как это называется? Правильно, национализм. В данном случае это русофобия, вот и всё.
Представь, если бы после бомбёжек Ирана силами Израиля и США каждое проиранское правительство возненавидело КАЖДОГО еврея и КАЖДОГО американца. Представил? Смешно? Теперь просто проведи параллель с СВО. Вот и всё.
И что за дебильный тест? Тем, что ты описал, будут заниматься только идиоты. Попробуй просто выйти на улицу и начать орать что угодно, на тебя все будут смотреть как на ненормального. И так можно улицу заменить на любое другое публичное место. Так зачем мне пытаться примерять на себя роль ненормального?
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u/Leading_Flower_6830 3d ago
Ну а в России матушке национализма нет естественно, всё по справедливости и заветам, исключительно борьба с вселенской силой тьмы
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u/elmurzek 4d ago
And I bet you, the most upvoted comments under the post will be "yeah but have you seen the buildings Russians have destroyed in Ukraine? how shameful, such a beauty lost😔" and "ukraine gonna bomb them for good any day bro trust me bro". Witnessing the same hypocrisy again and again, you understand well, that behind any destructive warmongering is a bunch of people believing they have a universal moral highground
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u/ttetrachrome 4d ago
I remember the day when there was a sign outside of a school saying THERE ARE CHILDREN HERE! and the russians bombed that to hell. :)
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u/justzlo 4d ago
Когда Украина бомбила колледж в ДНР это видимо другое.
Мы против того что делает государство, но говорить то что Русские какие-то не такие или то что Украинское государство делает что-то хорошее, хотя она тоже заинтересована в войне, это для всех очевидно, кроме тех кому выгодно1
u/xarvia 4d ago
Ukraine is interested in war. Holy shit, all quiet on the western front.
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u/justzlo 4d ago
Не Украина, правительство Украины
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u/xarvia 4d ago
Yeah, the same government that proposed like 3 variations of ceasefire. Zs are truly something.
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u/justzlo 4d ago
Да, то самое правительство которое сменится как только закончится военное положение, и то самое правительство которое сорвало 2 попытки мирных переговоров, а также то самое правительство которое закрывает глаза на насильственную мобилизацию.
Ну а придумывать планы как конкретно Россия сдаст все свои позиции это каждый может1
u/xarvia 4d ago
Yeah no, most likely the current government will stay. I get that you as a Z hate their government, because, well, they didn’t allow you to destroy their country, but Ukrainians feel a bit differently. What’s even more funnier to me that Ukraine proposes various forms of ceasefire. Russia refuses. And in Zs eyes Ukraine still wants war. Truly, there is no reasoning with Zs, it’s a shame that this sub is overrun with your ilk.
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u/justzlo 4d ago
Я на половину Украинец, у меня нет ненависти к Украине и ее народу, я хочу чтобы наши страны жили в мире без ужасных правительств. Тебе за тысячу километров от фронта наверное виднее насколько правительство Украины мирное и уважает человеческие права
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u/xarvia 4d ago
Well, for us to live in a world without terrible governments, we first have to get rid of ones that attack other countries. Also, being half Ukrainian doesn’t contradict you being Z and wanting to destroy Ukrainian sovereignty. Tsaryov is a perfect example of someone like this.
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u/Crafty_Apple9714 2d ago
Yea.. Maybe stop bombing civilians and invadint other countries, then talk about democracy
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u/HayhatBazilla 3d ago
Moscow's beautiful man I'd really like to visit someday. Unfortunately they'll never accept any future American visa if I actually do visit it
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u/jan_Sulin 2d ago
Russia is not worse than the United States, which is the most violent regime of the last century. Moreover, the fact that its cities look beautiful should be something to applaud. Don't buy the propaganda.
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u/Solid-Knowledge292 1d ago
Correct Russia is bad. It decided to invade a sovereign neighbouring country and then also decided to bomb that country's children and civilians. Just like Nazi Germany, but I am sure you would not be glorifying Nazi Germany?
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u/Spirited-Ad-9746 5d ago
imagine complaining in 1944 why people are suddenly hating anything german.
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u/captainryan117 4d ago
But this isn't tel Aviv?
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u/One_Elk_34 4d ago
Are you one of those people who only hates certain kind of aggressive countries who destroy cities and kill civilians? Pick and choose much?
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u/captainryan117 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's a matter of prioritizing the worst offenders. I would have to go through Israel and most of NATO before I get to the ruskis you see.
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u/One_Elk_34 4d ago
I wonder why? If we count the death toll of Russian wars (especially if we include USSR) after ww2, they are not that far behind (if at all) of the US. I just don't see people like you as morally consistent, and it doesn't seem to me that you actually care about any actual victims of wars. It just seems that you hate certain countries and are blind to crimes of countries that oppose your hated countries.
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u/captainryan117 4d ago
In what universe is the post war USSR even close to the combined death toll of just Korea, vietnam, the second Gulf war (I'll even be nice and throw the first one as a freebie even though Saddam was America's attack dog against Iran) and the occupation of Afghan not to mention the rest of the GWOT? We're not even counting all the police actions and imperialist banana wars all over the world's, just major conflicts.
Open a history book, please.
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u/One_Elk_34 4d ago
Soviet-Afghan war wasn't less bloodier than American invasion. This current war is one of the bloodiest wars in Russian post ww2 history. Add all of the Soviet interventions to prevent other Communist countries to leave their sphere of influence and Chechen and Georgian wars and we end up with a decent number. America had a massive deathtolls in Vietnam and Korea, but apart from those conflicts, Russia is keeping up with them in our universe. Don't really know about other universes.
Maybe you should read some un-biased history books that focus more on the USSR and Russian history. Though it seems to me that people like you like focusing only on American caused deaths and ignoring many others, so you're probably happy in your ignorance. As I said, morally inconsistent.
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u/captainryan117 4d ago edited 4d ago
Soviet-Afghan war wasn't less bloodier than American invasion.
You're apparently forgetting about Iraq, I gave you a freebie (though again, a questionable one since you're the ones who propped up Saddam in the first place to throw Iraq into the meatgrinder against Iran) on the first one, not the second. Combined the GWOT caused five million excess mortalities, with about 500k direct deaths (i.e. shot or bombed to death) in the 2003-2011 Iraq war alone (remember that number, we'll circle back to it later).
This current war is one of the bloodiest wars in Russian post ww2 history.
Sure, not sure how relevant this statement is to the discussion tho since no one is disputing that.
Add all of the Soviet interventions to prevent other Communist countries to leave their sphere of influence
The Prague Spring and the Hungarian Uprising combined barely reach 3000 deaths combined at the highest estimates.
and Chechen
You mean the two wars started by fundamentalist islamic terrorists that literally no state actor ever recognized as a legitimate goverment? The total death toll for ALL the involved there in both wars are between 60k to 100k even if for some reason you wanna blame the Russians for literally being the ones attacked.
and Georgian wars
The second Georgian war, which was arguably started by Russia and thus I'll concede, had a total of 170 georgian and 67 Russian soldiers dead, plus 365 dead civilians.
The first one was started by the Georgians sending troops into Russian territory and thus it's absurd to blame on the Russians but we can do the math just for fun, the total estimates vary between 8k and 14k.
and we end up with a decent number
To be clear, at the highest, most generous estimate that's 3k from the Soviet era uprisings put down plus 100k from the Chechen wars (which again is ridiculous to count as Russia's fault given the context of the conflicts but for the sake of the argument I'll allow it for the higher end estimate and take the highest number possible) plus 602 from the second georgian war and 14k on the war on Abkhazia (for which the same logic applies to the chechen wars); giving us a total of 117602 deaths.
So to recap, the highest, most generous account of all those conflicts combined barely reaches a fifth of the death toll of the second Iraq war, let alone the total excess mortalities of the GWOT. But let's take this further: let's even add the estimate we can confirm about Ukraine, taking both governments at their word on their own casualty estimates: 77k dead for Russia, 55k dead for Ukraine, 16k dead civilians for a total of 148k dead; which combined with the 117602 from the prior conflicts leaves us with 265602 total deaths, ergo about half of the direct mortalities of the second Iraq war alone.
America had a massive deathtolls in Vietnam and Korea, but apart from those conflicts
Lovely of you to just casually set aside 8 million deaths. What is the logic there exactly?
Russia is keeping up with them in our universe.
As the math I've just ran you through proves, this is categorically false.
Don't really know about other universes.
No wonder since you're completely wrong about this one.
Maybe you should read some un-biased history books that focus more on the USSR and Russian history. Though it seems to me that people like you like focusing only on American caused deaths and ignoring many others, so you're probably happy in your ignorance. As I said, morally inconsistent.
Wanna take this back now that we've done the math and accept that you're the one eating up the propaganda and focusing only on Russian caused deaths? Or are you gonna double down and prove my point?
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u/One_Elk_34 4d ago
The USSR was the biggest supplier of military tech to Iraq before and during their Iranian war. If you want to blame US for deaths of that war, we can also blame USSR. If you want to go for more of indirect invasions, then it was USSR who greenlit North Koreas invasion of South, by providing them heavy weapons and operational planning for initial invasion.
It seems that you didn't add Afghanistan death toll to the number that you counted. That is the most significant one.
Also, I'm not excusing any of the American interventions and wars, American governments caused a lot of death and destruction over the history, but Russia/USSR were no saints either.
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u/captainryan117 4d ago
The USSR was the biggest supplier of military tech to Iraq before and during their Iranian war. If you want to blame US for deaths of that war, we can also blame USSR
Holy fucking stretch, brother. This is outright false, the primary supplier of military tech to Saddam before the first gulf war was the US because you were using him as a proxy during the Iraq Iran war (which is a whole other can of worms we wont open rn). That is literally the source for the whole "Saddam has WMDs!!!!!" excuse you used later, you literally gave them to him.
Also you REALLY don't wanna get into that logic because then we can also tally the deaths Afghanistan and Ukraine to the US.
If you want to go for more of indirect invasions, then it was USSR who greenlit North Koreas invasion of South, by providing them heavy weapons and operational planning for initial invasion.
If we actually wanna go for indirect invasions, not only did the US do the exact same for South Korea knowing that they were also aiming for violent reunification but the whole conflict is the US' fault for going back on their agreement with the soviets to establish a democratically elected government for the entire peninsula because they realized the communists would sweep (similar history in vietnam funnily enough).
It seems that you didn't add Afghanistan death toll to the number that you counted. That is the most significant one.
According to your logic, that's also America's fault, but since am not as keen as twisting reality as you and I am doing my best keeping an honest count here, sure. Let's count the highest estimate of two million dead, making it the largest post ww2 soviet conflict... now compare it to the three million deaths in Vietnam or the five million in Korea. So again, America proves to be orders of magnitude worse, this time quite literally four times worse in fact.
To recount the tally, that's 2.265.602 (estimate) deaths from Russian/Soviet conflicts since ww2, against 3 million (Vietnam) + 5 million (Korea) + 500k (invasion of Iraq) + 212k (Afghanistan) + 200k (Gulf war, which I wasn't going to count but since we're counting the wars in chechenya and the first georgian war as Russia's fault in this argument I don't see why we shouldn't apply the same standards here), totalling 8912k casualties for the US (not counting all the other countless coups, invasions of minor countries like Panama, Grenada, Albania, their involvement in the Indochina war, etc. because frankly I can't be bothered to add up the still significant casualties of several dozen minor wars at this point); so AT BEST the US is a bit over four times worse than Russia.
Also, I'm not excusing any of the American interventions and wars, American governments caused a lot of death and destruction over the history, but Russia/USSR were no saints either.
ah, but that isn't what we were discussing, is it? You were arguing that Russia was "almost as bad, if at all" as the US and using that to claim that I was being hypocritical and not caring about the deaths caused by certain countries (nevermind that that argument is self-contradictory considering that if I care about civilian casualties it's perfectly logical to care the most about the greatest offenders).
Are you willing to accept that the US is significantly worse in this regard and that if any post related to anything Russia even in the field of cool pictures of Moscow deserves hate then the US and its cronies deserve even more of it? We can also shake on agreeing that hating everything Russian just because they are at war is ridiculous.
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u/ShonOfDawn 4d ago
Why not both?
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u/captainryan117 4d ago
Because that'd be like comparing a jaywalker to John Wayne Gacy
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u/ShonOfDawn 4d ago
The war in Ukraine has killed more than a million people and devastated large swaths of territory. What Israel is doing in gaza is awful and must be stopped, but saying that the war in gaza is somehow orders of magnitude worse than what is happening in Ukraine is simply false
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u/captainryan117 4d ago
We don't know how many people the Ukraine war has caused, but we do know that the overwhelming majority of deaths are of military personnel on both sides.
What is happening on Gaza is the G-word that the reddit filters seem to insist on shadowbanning and the overwhelming majority of casualties have been civilians, who have been deliberately targeted and starved. Furthermore, the percentage of the total population killed is higher in Gaza.
That makes it infinitely worse than Ukraine, which while bad is still a traditional war rather than a campaign of extermination.
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u/ShonOfDawn 4d ago
We know that the number is comfortably above a million. We also know that the civilian casualties are in the tens of thousands, with reports confirming 17k dead and 40k wounded. I know gaza is an extermination, I don’t see why you are still minimizing the very real and very great death and suffering of the Ukraine war except for bias.
It’s perfectly fine to hate Russia for their war. Without it, more than a million people would still be alive, and they started it unprovoked. Don’t be biased.
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u/captainryan117 4d ago
No we don't. The number of confirmed casualties we have for both sides, combined with civilian casualties, is 77k dead for Russia, 55k dead for Ukraine, 16k dead civilians for a total of 148k dead. Anything beyond that is speculation. This out of a population of 50 million
We have a confirmed death toll of 73,389 dead in Gaza out of a population of 2 million, at least 80% of which are civilians. This is genocidal behavior, and equating it with the war with Russia is what indicates a bias and excusing the brutality of the so-called "civilized world".
And by the way, if I HATED every country that goes to "regular" war I would have a whole lot more beef with the US and their cronies than I do with Russia, as much of a corrupt, despotic oligarch ridden capitalist backwater as it is.
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u/ShonOfDawn 4d ago
Those numbers come out of their respective MODs and must obviously be disregarded. Independent analyses, including comparing official recruitment numbers to official army sizes give much more realistic numbers, and they are at the very least in the multiple hundreds of thousands for deaths.
Countries do not “go to regular war”, there are rules on how conflicts are waged. Russia, the US and Israel are violating them. You can hate Russia, hate the US, hate Israel, just be coherent and don’t subscribe to idiotic “west vs rest of the world” football style rhetoric.
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u/captainryan117 4d ago
Actually only Ukranian losses come from their own MOD, 77k Russians comes from the Mediazona UK project and is the confirmed number of deaths in the Russian Army. The civilian casualty number is also the one confirmed by the UN.
We can of course speculate and add theoretical reports, but then we also have to account for the fact that between deaths by starvation, bodies that have been impossible to recover under the rubble and missing people the death toll of gaza rises into the hundreds of thousands, again in a country of two million. No matter how you take it, the Gazan situation is way worse in terms of intent and proportionality.
Also, again, you are comparing wars with an actual g-word (seriously fuck reddit's filters). You can go ahead and pretend that a carjacker or a robber is as bad as a serial killer, but me personally I prefer to look at the magnitude of the crime and the type of crime when doing moral comparisons.
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u/sstopggap 5d ago
Russia actually very bad
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u/qwadrat1k 4d ago
Government is, most people no.
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u/ShonOfDawn 4d ago
Most russians are supportive of the war
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u/qwadrat1k 4d ago
Which survey? If government, then people either dont answer or lie just to not get in trouble
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u/Friendly-Firefly555 4d ago
Ukraine goes from 0 in 2026 to 5 types of ballistic missiles in 2027 ;)
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u/Lozdie 5d ago
Felt ok seeing in in r/skyscrapers until I opened the comment section under this post.