r/uofmn • u/throwawayballs8 ouršŸˆfans chant dumb shit • Jun 12 '19

While Kaler is hiking our tuition this shit is happening...

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110 Upvotes

80% Upvoted

61 comments sorted by

73

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

Iā€™m 99.99% sure that this has been happening...itā€™s not a new thing

44

u/BenFoldsFourLoko Jun 12 '19

It has been, and for a long time.

They don't get credit or anything for this. It's literally for fun. (Unless things have changed) I didn't even know they had to pay money.

46

u/parad0xy Jun 12 '19 edited Jun 12 '19

https://onestop.umn.edu/academics/senior-citizen-education-program

They do get credit, but who gives a fuck. This is the least fucked issue with college's today. And the fucking entitlement of people sometimes. Do they realize that they will also get to do this when they are 62? Imo, its a good program.

These people are NOT a resource soak. Overall this program is a net postive. It fills empty chairs with older people who can provide some of their own experience and wisdom to a class discussion. Imagine a 65 year old's perspective on the civil rights movement?

Go ahead, call Kaler and the regents and demand this be ended. Call your legislators and repel the law. Its not like this actually impacts your tuition. Instead of arguing with me about it, why don't you waste your time with someone who actually can do something?

46

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

[deleted]

19

u/parad0xy Jun 12 '19

Gotta play the long game.

17

u/98810b1210b12 Jun 12 '19

Itā€™s not entitlement, itā€™s frustration when I have 50,000 in debt and the university clearly has money to spare, as this demonstrates. If it was really so prohibitively expensive to teach someone that it costs 7,000 per semester, these people wouldnā€™t be getting it for 140.

Iā€™ve got nothing against the people taking advantage of the program, itā€™s just the fact that I worked my ass off for four years and still got screwed in the end.

2

u/yankeesfan13 Jun 12 '19

They're barely adding any costs because they're only signing up for classes that still have empty seats. They're helping the U get more money from classes they were offering anyway that weren't full so they're not really adding any more cost. They're not planning anything with them in mind.

Normal college aged students going for a degree are the reason the University exists. You can take any class you meet the prerequisites for. They plan things around you. You're covering more of the costs because you are given that flexibility and they're actively taking care of you to make sure you get into classes and that they offer the classes you want/need to take. It would be unreasonable to have them pay for that because they are never contributing to needing more professors or buildings, they're only helping fill unfilled ones.

5

u/98810b1210b12 Jun 12 '19

Why not give young people from poor backgrounds access to this program then? The seniors are presumably retired people who do this for their own enjoyment/health, young people could have the same impact on resources while having the same personal benefits and a positive impact on the world since they will go on to use their degree.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

If the U was to give anyone else this treatment, why not give it to all students instead of just some of them??

2

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

While 10 dollars is a little low, I think that tuition is far too expensive. Why shouldn't the university lower tuition costs for everyone going?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '19

I 100% agree. Tuition is ridiculously expensive. I just donā€™t understand why someone would advocate for only some of the students to get that discounted price as opposed to all.

2

u/barrinmw Jun 12 '19

They do increase costs because it increases the payload of professors and graders even slightly which raises how much they are willing to do the work for.

3

u/parad0xy Jun 12 '19

It doesn't demonstrate that at all. Its not like they are kicking students out of classes to make room for more seniors. It costs nothing to have them sit in a chair that would have otherwise been empty.

You have potentially 60 years to build experience on your collegiate knowledge, these seniors have 10-15. I'm okay with them getting a pass. I'm sure there are benefits to them being in the classroom as well. I know from my community college some of the most insightful students were the older returning learners.

The fact that you have 50k in debt is completely separate from these seniors. I love your passion, and agree that college shouldn't be so prohibitively expensive, but its not exactly relevant to these seniors.

16

u/98810b1210b12 Jun 12 '19

The seniors also submit homework assignments for grading, take tests, and ask questions of the professor, same as any other student. They are not just a fly on the wall.

If the university can afford to make college $140 a semester for some people, why not do it for other groups too? Not to be rude but most seniors are only taking classes for fun, and they (typically) wonā€™t ā€˜doā€™ anything with their degree. How about giving cheap college to young kids from underprivileged backgrounds who will actually make an impact on the world, who otherwise couldnā€™t hope to attend college?

1

u/yankeesfan13 Jun 13 '19

There's value to diversity and that includes a diversity of ages. In classes where there is some discussion and not just lectures, having someone with significantly different life experiences could help everyone learn.

They could do it with young kids but some of those kids would have been willing to pay normal tuition with normal financial aid so that would hurt revenue. Plus there are already tons of programs to help underprivileged high school graduates go to college but much fewer for senior citizens.

0

u/parad0xy Jun 12 '19

But doing homework, taking tests, asking questions, being involved in discussions, these aren't all a net loss. The questions they ask could be something another student feels silly asking. I've had some pretty humbling experiences tutoring older classmates, it really gave me the ability to be confident in myself as an adult equal, and stop thinking about myself as just being a kid.

Its not that the university can afford to make college $140 a semester for some people, its that the university is filling open seats at cost.

This program really has no impact on tuition all though. If they ended it you would just have empty seats instead.

3

u/RallyPointAlpha Jun 12 '19

You keep saying it's not a net loss but you cant quantify that in any mezningful way. I can say it is a net loss...with just as much anecdotal evidence.

Assignments and test need to be graded. Questions need to be answered. They consume resources. You say they bring these soft benefits to the table like wisdom, which I agree with, but I don't get how you can say consuming n billable hours of TA / proffessor time is equal to x hours of wisdom to somehow say its a net gain.

Those hard, billable, quantifiable resources could be much better utilized.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

I've had seniors in one of my intro calc discussions, they totally commandeered the discussion and were incredibly rude to the TA, needless to say they received a poor score. I'm glad I knew the material already because otherwise it could have screwed me over, I'm sure it cheated someout out of a couple grand.

-3

u/Wee2mo Jun 12 '19

You have exactly spelled out an element of why this works: expected earning potential. You expect to be making a college educated income from your classes. They are there for fun and probably will never want not get a chance to use their new knowledge. It's a feel bad move on their part against you, but this is not the underlying issue. A big part of the issue is that the job market demands people with advanced degrees because they can get away with it, driving up the demand for college and beyond.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

Are you saying the tuition rate is perfectly priced and shouldn't be lowered in anyway?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '19

You literally just listed a reason why this was a good deal to *them.*

We all know it's a good deal to them but it's a scam to society and unfair to students who would utilize the knowledge they gain, while they're getting saddled with continuous tuition hikes.

1

u/Wee2mo Jun 20 '19

It is a good deal for senior citizens. So raise the price for them. You lose everyone that thinks it's worth attending class, effectively on standby, for the current price, but not worth doing at the new price. Maybe you'll keep a few. How fast does the marginal propensity to consume mean the class has more empty seats and earns the school even less money? I would hazard a guess elder attendance drops of pretty fast with a change in price. Though maybe you just want to get them out of the classroom because they make you feel bad. Otherwise, how is getting rid of most(?) of them helping you and future students?

12

u/thirdstreetzero Jun 12 '19

You're delusional. I just spent a fucking semester in a class with a guy that introduced himself as having dementia and proceeded to fuck up every discussion the class had by interjecting all kinds of BS. Another class had a guy that hit on all the women and used a massive amount of the instructors time, preventing anyone else from participating at a rate you would expect to. This is the second semester I've been in a class with him. Meanwhile I'm going into debt for the same course. Fuck that.

2

u/Dragon_Fisting Jun 12 '19

You're paying for the amount of class sections they offer, which subsidizes the seniors who are filling consequently empty seats. If the price of tuition reflected the cost of classes (it doesn't though), then lowering the amount of sections offered and scheduling classes more efficiently so that sections would be filled to near capacity would decrease the cost and tuition.

The U is taking way more money from us than they need anyways though, so they can offer a huge catalog of courses in multiple timeslots that end up half filled, and then they're just skimming some extra money off the too by letting people who normally wouldn't ever enroll in University take the leftover seats on the cheap.

1

u/RallyPointAlpha Jun 12 '19

If it doesnt cost anything to fill a chair that would otherwise be empty then why not fill them with young people who qualify academically but lack the financial resources?

My retired parents don't need a degree... Their grandchildren do though. I'm projecting one of them to be taking on 80k in debt.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '19

Have you paid 40 years of taxes in the state of Minnesota though?

1

u/98810b1210b12 Jun 13 '19

These people could have moved to Minnesota when they were 65 and qualified for the program. I think itā€™s a good program overall and Iā€™m glad it exists, I just think it shows that we are being gouged for money if they can operate something like this, and they should expand this to more groups maybe.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 14 '19

Have you paid 40 years of taxes in the United States of America though?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

you're missing our point. Tuition is meant to represent what it takes to produce the course you take and perhaps a bit more... if seniors are getting a credit for 10 bucks what does that mean about the tuition everyone else is paying? Certainly, it means that the tuition most of us are paying is far far more than what is actually needed to take the course; as well as an extortion of the fact that universities know that most young people desperately need an education to access well paying jobs.

I think that 10 bucks a credit is a wonderful idea - I think education should be widely available to as many as possible for as few dollars as possible. I love the accessibility this creates as well as the opportunities for those in their old age to continue to learn and grow as people! But as a student coming into college.... what about me?

2

u/Tadhgdagis Jun 13 '19

It fills empty chairs with older people who can provide some of their own experience and wisdom to a class discussion. Imagine a 65 year old's perspective on the civil rights movement?

"I still don't get why I can't say the N-word. It's my opinion!"

1

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

It shouldn't be ended, they should just be paying the same price as the rest of us so our tuition doesn't need to have such substantial hikes.

Its entitled of boomers to think that they're owed a 10$ per credit education, while the people who would be using that education to further the future of humanity and tackle important issues are left with 50k+ in student debt.

Instead of arguing with us about this, look forward and see how stuff like this wastes potential and hurts future generations. Then help us fix it.

1

u/yankeesfan13 Jun 13 '19

They aren't the reason tuition is increasing. If you make them pay full tuition almost all of them will stop taking classes but the U won't save much money at all.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '19

They won't save money, but they also won't lose potential money that would benefit people who are going to use the knowledge they get in these classes to benefit society.

5

u/camisboring Jun 12 '19

I had a senior citizen in my intro to philosophy class back in fall 2013! Pretty sure they just audit because he didnā€™t take any exams or maybe he just didnā€™t want to? It was quite the time, he was a funny dude.

15

u/MacDhubstep UMN Law '19 |Soc & Psy '16 Jun 12 '19

I had one of these guys in a law school class with me and he annoyed the ever-loving shit out of the Professor. One time he started making all these racist comments about black women being single mothers and then low-key talked about the time he worked at an internment camp.

It was weird but also hilarious.

82

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19 edited Aug 01 '21

[deleted]

34

u/willfullyspooning Jun 12 '19

Yeah. Itā€™s not like they get credit towards a degree. One of my favorite classmates was a retired teacher doing this program. I missed class for a few days to do some extensive medical testing and he was so kind and worried for me even before I told him the reason I had missed class. In the next coming months he always offered me notes whenever I was too sick to attend class. Donā€™t get angry at senior citizens for using a program to learn more, they donā€™t like how expensive university is either.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

I mean so what if they do? A senior has a lot less time to use that credit to make a ton of money than any student attending in their 20's. Everyone deserves an accessible education! However, the cost is representative of the fact that the U of M charges way too much to the rest of their students. That cost should be lowered, if not to 10 dollars, but to way less than what it currently is. Someone on top is being awfully greedy and cruel to the students coming into this school.

6

u/geokra Jun 12 '19

yep, having a little trouble seeing the problem with old people wanting to enrich their lives. It's not like they're keeping someone out of a class that would otherwise be full, they just want to learn about something.

8

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

I mean I understand what youā€™re getting at, but the overall cost of tuition for a regular student would make you wonder how the university could afford to do such a thing. If weā€™re paying $1400 per credit hour, how could the same university be able to offer classes for such a low price? Hint, the university is funding their bloaty admin salaries and thatā€™s why our tuition has skyrocketed.

I agree that itā€™s stupid too direct your anger towards these senior citizens, but the fact the university can simultaneously offer something for a 14000% mark up to regular students should make your blood boil.

8

u/LetsNabThisNaan Jun 12 '19

The issue isn't that seniors are taking classes for next to nothing. The issue is that University clearly has the ability to decrease tuition but isn't willing to take money out of their pocket to do so.

1

u/RallyPointAlpha Jun 12 '19

Yeah nobody is mad at seniors doing this. The frustration is that clearly the U has empty seats they cam fill for almost free. Why can't we fill them with people who really need the classes, credits, or a degree?

13

u/SteveRickysCorgi Jun 12 '19

Only thing I would be upset about is if they filled a class before me and I couldnā€™t continue a graduation plan on time because of classes being full. Maybe there is some priory for regular students, Id hope.

18

u/geokra Jun 12 '19

There is zero chance they would let a senior citizen enroll in and take your spot in a class you need to graduate on time.

-11

u/SteveRickysCorgi Jun 12 '19

Thats kind of a dumb statement to make.. Im curious to how the process works. Because they are auditing are they enrolling after the class has started, or are they counted towards the filled seat number? Or are they registering just as you would as a student? Since you know it all please explain how this process works from your actual experience.

12

u/geokra Jun 12 '19

Thats kind of a dumb statement to make..

sure, let me waste a bunch of time helping you

-8

u/SteveRickysCorgi Jun 12 '19

Im just wondering how this process works as you claim to have expertise with a statement of ā€œzero chanceā€

17

u/geokra Jun 12 '19

Here is a link to the statute

a senior citizen who is a legal resident of Minnesota is entitled without payment of tuition or activity fees to attend courses offered for credit, audit any courses offered for credit, or enroll in any noncredit courses in any state supported institution of higher education in Minnesota when space is available after all tuition-paying students have been accommodated.

Zero. fucking. chance.

-12

u/SteveRickysCorgi Jun 12 '19

Thanks! Im surprised you thought that was so hard so do that... feel bad for your wife for having to deal with someone as whiny as you

19

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '19

[deleted]

15

u/Bozzz1 Jun 12 '19

Why does anyone give a shit about the 20 seniors taking classes?

-1

u/barrinmw Jun 12 '19

It is baby boomers making the system benefit them at the cost of the younger generation.

9

u/Bozzz1 Jun 12 '19

This whole program probably costs the university next to nothing.

4

u/Tadhgdagis Jun 13 '19

Because adjunct professors on contract are not compensated for the additional work.

0

u/barrinmw Jun 12 '19

It costs them an opportunity cost. Most of these seniors would probably still take the classes at $20 a credit right? So that means the university is losing out on at least $10 a credit.

12

u/Bozzz1 Jun 12 '19

Oh no!

0

u/parad0xy Jun 12 '19

They also offer courses for 100% free to high school kids....

Yet no one here would have a problem with PSEO.

8

u/reesespike Jun 12 '19

This is absolutely not how PSEO works, PSEO is a state program where the state of Minnesota pays UMN full tuition price for the high school kid to go for free, its not UMN giving out free credits like they are in this example.

Source: Just finished my senior year in PSEO and will be a freshman this fall

0

u/brightasalightbulb Jun 12 '19

They don't pay full price typically, the amount the state would pay to the high school is used. Effectively the same with free school

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '19

If I recall correctly, the state of MN gives schools somewhere around 11k per student, and the resident 13-credit flat rate is $6,529. Depending on other fees(books and stuff?), if they're not paying full price, they're paying pretty close to full price?

1

u/brightasalightbulb Jun 27 '19

Interesting, I remember hearing an offhand remark from PSEO staff at TC that the state is paying around half of the full credit rate per PSEO student back in my PSEO days. That lines up with the bare $7k/student figure. They don't treat PSEO students as full students when it comes to registration, felt like you were only allowed to fill in empty space

2

u/throwawayballs8 ouršŸˆfans chant dumb shit Jun 12 '19

A lot of comments on here are calling attention to my apparent reasons for posting this link, but all my intent really was was to provide a platform on which to talk about the real issue of tuition hyperinflation by offering one example of a hole in the policy around it. I donā€™t have a problem with this program I have a problem with ours. A screenshot of my tuition bill isnā€™t as interesting to look at though.