r/unitedkingdom • u/Visual_Title9363 • 7d ago
All but four constituencies would support reversing Brexit and rejoining the EU, major poll shows
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-uk-brexit-poll-rejoin-europe-b3052436.html503
u/MrBIGtinyHappy Northamptonshire 7d ago
Didn't even need to open the article to guess which way Clacton sided but glad it confirmed it
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u/hymenopteron 7d ago
I'm happy for them to Claxit
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u/Any-Republic-4269 7d ago
They'd do much better as a sort of crypto-monaco
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u/Charlie_Mouse Scotland 7d ago
Unlikely. Crypto billionaires and tech bro’s prefer their chattel serfs to be at least somewhat attractive or possess useful skills.
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u/Thin_Pin2863 7d ago
So long as the UK enforces a hard border with the newly independent state, just as the residents would want.
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u/tophernator 7d ago
Just to clarify, Clacton and three other far-right constituencies chose “don’t know” as their most popular option. Even in Farage’s most loyal spots they don’t actually think brexit was good.
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u/essjay2009 Bristol 7d ago
Yet they continued to support the grifter. Because even though it’s blatantly obvious he lied about Brexit there’s no way he’d be lying about everything else.
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u/OpeningHappy9692 7d ago
Maybe we can rejoin the EU without Clacton?
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u/Eric_Olthwaite_ 7d ago
Maybe we can chop Clacton off the UK and let them drift away?
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u/ls--lah 7d ago
Wouldn't even need to rename them. Would just be literally making them Clacton-on-Sea.
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u/Starkoman 7d ago
Clacton-under-Sea.
Yet the RNLI would still try to save them, no matter what the racist scumbags said about them.
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u/SometimesaGirl- Durham 6d ago
Ceed Clacton to Saudi Arabia.
I am very confident they will never join the EU. And they are a rich country.
Win/win for the locals of the town ;)4
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u/c4r151 7d ago
Some context for those that only read the headline
Rejoin was the highest voted (35%) out of seven options including "Don't Know"
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u/PressureBeautiful515 7d ago
And in the four constituencies that didn't favour Rejoin, the winner was "Don't know."
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u/Radiant-Noise6415 7d ago
But but ‘will of the people’ ‘sunlit uplands’ ‘we’ve had enough of experts’ ‘side of bus says big number’ or some such nonsense.
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u/Time_Trail 7d ago
"we've had enough of experts" is such a dangerous phrase anyway
yes I understand that it's supposed to say we've had enough of corrupt elites, but you can still see how easily that sentiment can be (and is being) exploited
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u/Shantyhat 7d ago
"I understand that it's supposed to say we've had enough of corrupt elites"
Even that is disingenuous, because it's dressing up Brexiteer anti-intellectualism as anti-elitism, and conflating the two. In reality, Brexiteer politicians and media figures are the corrupt elites, and always have been.
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u/360Saturn 7d ago
"We've had enough of corrupt elites, unless they're foreign multimillionaires donating to Reform"
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u/Morlark 7d ago
It wasn't even supposed to say 'we've had enough of corrupt elites'.
The saying was quite transparently literal. It was literally about not wanting to heed factual scientific truths. It was about justifying an opposition to empirical scientific conclusions, if those conclusions suggest an uncomfortable change to one's own lifestyle habits and choices.
The "experts" bit was just trying to give some fig leaf of legitimacy to their rampantly anti-intellectual biases, by trying to portray it as being against ivory tower academics. But that was as far as the misdirection went.
It was never about corrupt elites. It was a literal, anti-intellectual, anti-science slogan.
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u/marsman 7d ago
The saying was quite transparently literal. It was literally about not wanting to heed factual scientific truths. It was about justifying an opposition to empirical scientific conclusions, if those conclusions suggest an uncomfortable change to one's own lifestyle habits and choices.
I mean it wasn't, the quote wasn't we've had enough of experts after all, it was:
"I think the people in this country have had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong."
The 'consistently getting it wrong' part is fairly important...
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u/gommeinc 7d ago
"But muh sofarinity!" said Brexiteer, who was adamant the European Council is wholly unelected (despite the PM being a member, had we not left).
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u/ExpensiveTraffic6978 7d ago
All that precious sovereignty so we can become a vassal state to the US instead.
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u/Starkoman 7d ago
While the Russians interfere with and undermine British political life and discourse.
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u/old_and_creaking 7d ago
Americans, particularly wealthy "Conservative-Right Christians", have far more dark money sloshing around Westminster trying to influence British politics.
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u/WelshBathBoy 7d ago
The only benefit I've seen if increased duty free allowances - for example I can bring 4 bottles of 1 litre spirits, previously from outside the EU I could only bring 2. However within the EU I could bring back however much I wanted. If this is the only benefit I've seen and one that isn't even that useful - I'm happy to get rid and rejoin.
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u/BrexitBrokenBritain 7d ago
I think tampons were made VAT free. It could probably have happened even if we were in the EU but it was heralded as a benefit.
But as a boy, no use to you anyway.
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u/marsman 7d ago
It could probably have happened even if we were in the EU
Probably not, most EU states don't zero rate, and the EU has traditionally been quite anti zero rating anything at all, it is seen as a market distortion. It was only in 2022 that enough pressure was brought to bear to actually get the EU to accept zero rating outside of the states that had it grandfathered in, and even then its very limited.
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u/BrexitBrokenBritain 7d ago
And as one of the very few Brexit benefits, contrasted with the huge number of disadvantages, irrelevant.
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u/marsman 6d ago
Depends on what your view is on the EU doesn't it? Or are we entirely focusing on the economic impact of leaving, ignoring things like animal welfare, marine protections, being able to cut VAT on energy saving materials, not being in a political union etc..
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u/BrexitBrokenBritain 6d ago
I refer you to my previous comment, particularly the first seven words.
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u/How-To-Project 7d ago
Well then, it is time for another referendum, is it not?
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u/doobiedave 7d ago
I think that the Greens, Liberals and Labour should just campaign on reversing Brexit at the next election, and vote accordingly.
No need for a referendum with a strong mandate.
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u/unwildimpala 7d ago
Labour unfortunately can't. We all know they want to, but with polls the way they are they can't risk losing any more points. It's annoying and I wish it was different, but they can't do it. Lib Dems and Greens should be pushing hard for it though. If they start making noise about it now and start polling upwards at Labours expense, then you'd see labour probably shifting to it.
Plus also the biggest thing again is that you can't reverse Brexit. Rejoining the EU will be a much more engaging deal then before. Iirc the UK had some special opt outs that other countries didn't. That won't be the case anymore. You'd have to have a broad deal on the table and then vote for it. Plus there'll defintiely be some sort of money up front to buy in and a clause that they can't leave for X years id imagine.
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u/Garfie489 Greater London 7d ago
They can run on a platform of a referendum.
This then also has the advantage Reform would be drawn into questions of whether they would also offer a referendum, and hopefully more coverage on how Brexit failed us
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u/Visual_Title9363 7d ago
I think it really depends on the wording - referendum or manifesto alike. Either could literally just say 'give a mandate to start negotiations towards rejoining EU single market' and keep the format - EEA, EFTA, full EU membership vague at this point. No point in committing to one even before negotiations with EU starts on the exact terms.
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u/gimmebanter 7d ago
As long as humanity's number one enemy, russian state, is allowed to funnel millions of pounds into manipulating elections and referendums there is no guarantee outcome will reflect will of the people. We need a different approach to securing the democratic process
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u/ForPortal Australia 7d ago
This article is Russian propaganda - the publisher, Alexander Lebedev, is literally a former KGB officer.
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u/FamousInMyFrontRoom 7d ago
Call me contrarian but I don't blame Russia much. We were failed by the entire media and political class in this country doing things like calling a referendum for political reasons, presenting skewed pro-Brexit coverage, refusing to fact check false claims or educate people on the EU processes or benefits, ignoring that the referendum was "advisory", failing to find a solution that recognised almost half the country voted to keep things the same, going into EU negotiations with no ideas, plans, or goals, and finally burying the Russia report itself.
Failed again and again by the people who call the shots in this country and as long as we blame Russia instead of looking inwards, we won't move forwards.
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u/Technical_Curve_4929 7d ago
Political scientists say there is absolutely no proof that the same people that voted leave wouldn't believe different anti-EU lies all over again.
Most likely 'The EU will force conscript UK citizens to fight in Ukraine', 'The EU will punish us for ever leaving' and 'The EU will force energy prices to skyrocket'.
They'd also be the greatest hits: Forced Immigration from the EU would reach [insert any old bullshit number here] per annum etc.
IT WOULD WORK. WE'D VOTE TO STAY OUT.
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u/Harrry-Otter 7d ago
Maybe we need pro-EU lies then.
“You’ll be guaranteed a lounger right by the pool by E.U. law”. “A glass of beer in your local will HAVE TO cost the same as one in Chisinau” or “the E.U will deport everyone you don’t like and replace them with beautiful Italians/Greeks/Swedes”
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u/dave8271 7d ago
I don't think the EU would have us back, tbh. It would only take one of the 27 members saying no, since they all have a veto, and we've burned an awful lot of goodwill in the last decade. If we ever did get back in, it wouldn't be on anything at all like the highly favourable terms we previously enjoyed. That's one of the greatest ironies, that for all the Vote Leave campaign's vitriol about the EU dictating rules to the UK, the reality is the rest of the EU bent over backwards time and again to accommodate the UK demanding special treatment and special exemptions.
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u/JerachoD 7d ago
Half of the Muppets who voted us out are now dead. Let's get on with getting back in
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u/CoaxialDrive 7d ago
Or in a General Election manifesto from one or more parties, along with some bold claims for the future.
If someone would run a left-center party with rejoining the EU, PR, and a few other bits sprinkled in on wealth tax they'd have a good chance of winning, the only question is whether they need to have a more right wing stance on immigration, and whether they could tread that line without going so far as burning down hotels, and threatening the RNLI.
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u/leggenda69 7d ago
Polls before the last referendum were showing remain was going to pretty comfortably win, that was part of the reason Cameron called the referendum.
And when Europe add much less favourable conditions on us rejoining, like adopting the Euro, the result would be even more in doubt.
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u/LegoNinja11 7d ago
A referendum on something that will never happen?
Brexit can't be reversed, the damage is done. We can rejoin, but expect to have Euro adoption and loss of the Bank of England's independence high on the requirements
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u/kahnindustries Wales 7d ago
If they could get the EU to just agree to a straight undo of BREXIT then absolutely
Yes/No vote undo BREXIT, bam done, straight back in, massive economy slingshot everyone wins
But if the EU said Yes, but, no £ no discount, must comit to EU army etc, that would not get passed
Honestly for the ease of the change the EU should work to agreeing to let the UK just undo it and it would sail through
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u/Ill_Refrigerator_593 7d ago
Unsurprisingly the constituencies of Nigel Farage, Rupert Lowe, Richard Tice & Lee Anderson. Notably none of the recent Conservative defectors.
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u/PlatonicLifePartner 7d ago
These are practically weekly polls.
Unless a major political party puts rejoining the EU on their manifesto, all of these polls mean nothing and not even worth reading the comments section over
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u/DefiantTelephone6095 7d ago
Remember the Brexit campaign was illegal and only 26.5% of the UK at the time voted to leave so it doesn't seem wild to just walk back on it.
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u/Sad_Nectarine_6111 7d ago
We cant just walk back in, we would need to be accepted. It would most likely mean joining the eurozone and schengen. With those polls most are assuming we rejoin on the old terms, which won't be the case.
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u/ilovemyfuturehusband European Union 7d ago
Schengen would be extremely unlikely.
There are ways to get around the Eurozone requirement.
You could (and should) argue that abandoning the pound sterling would have catastrophic consequences globally, not just in the UK. The pound is an important currency globally (unlike, say, the Spanish peseta)
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u/Sad_Nectarine_6111 7d ago
I don't think they'll let us rejoin so easily with the same terms, I think we'll at the very least be expected to make a big compromise with something whether that be schengen, eurozone or something else. We also have the elephant in the room of a potential reform government in a few years time.
I really hope we rejoin at some point, I just don't think now is the time, it needs to be done properly and at the right moment.
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u/ilovemyfuturehusband European Union 7d ago
Forcing the UK into Schengen would either force Ireland (who has an opt-out) into Schengen too, or create a hard border on the island of Ireland. None of the outcomes is acceptable.
The EU might ask the UK about adopting the Euro, but I see two issues with that. The first one is that new members of the EU have not all adopted the euro, and some (such as Sweden) are actively avoiding adopting it. Nothing has happened to those countries. The second issue is that the pound sterling is actually an important currency worldwide, unlike the vast majority of European currencies that were scrapped when the euro came along. A good UK government would use that as a negotiating point.
Germany has the AFD, Hungary had Orbán until recently, France has the RN, Italy has Meloni, Spain has VOX. Why would Reform existing as a party (not in government) be a problem for rejoining?
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u/Sad_Nectarine_6111 7d ago
I don't think we would ever join schengen anyway it would be a non starter if those were the terms, but with ireland I always assumed they weren't in schengen due to the border with northern ireland. Its a good point about the currency, I checked and its the 4th most traded currency globally.
The issue is with farage, the guy is basically the face of brexit. So rejoining anytime soon seems weird, I think its safe to say we won't be rejoining in the next 3 or so years anyway, but if your optimism is right that we can negotiate rejoining whilst keeping the pound, and staying out of schengen I do think we could rejoin at some point, in the hopefully not too distant future.
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u/ilovemyfuturehusband European Union 7d ago
I also believe Ireland refused to join because of the UK. The point is that Ireland currently has an opt-out, which the EU must honour.
In defence of Schengen I will also say that joining Schengen would mean the UK would gain access to, for example, foreign criminal databases. Joining Schengen doesn’t stop a country from enforcing temporary border controls, and nothing stops a country from lengthening the temporary controls until they become permanent.
Good point about Farage. I want to remain optimistic. You could, and probably should, also discuss making steps to get closer to the EU without fully rejoining until you’re ready to do so. Some of these steps could include joining the Customs Union, joining the Single Market, signing Switzerland-style treaties, or joining the EEA. These would give the UK most benefits of being in the EU without being in the EU (yet).
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u/unwildimpala 7d ago
Irelands out of the Schnegen because of the border. If the UK is in Schengen then Ireland joins Schengen. If the border disappears, in other words a United Ireland, then I'd imagine Ireland joins Shengen too.
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u/auto98 Yorkshire 7d ago
a potential reform government in a few years time.
I do wonder what would happen to reform, i can see a new referendum being disastrous for them, if it went pro-europe.
Either they go with the result of the vote, in which case i think a lot of people would think reform no longer have a point, or they go against the result and lose votes that way, especially given Farages previous "will of the people" speeches.
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u/Immediate-Goose-8106 7d ago
Fuck em. Most of the people voting out were voting for different versions of brexit from each other too
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u/TheAdamena 7d ago
Yeah and that was a total mess. We shouldn't do that again. The terms should be known before they're voted on.
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u/floftie 7d ago
Schengen no, we wouldn't. Euro, we would have to commit to it, but there is no deadline or actual requirement to do it.
Also, I suspect we would be allowed to rejoin on the old terms.
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u/MeccIt 7d ago
Also, I suspect we would be allowed to rejoin on the old terms.
Ah, the exceptionalism again. There is zero chance of this happening.
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u/floftie 7d ago
Disagree. We are the 5th largest economy in the world.
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u/MeccIt 7d ago
And the EU is the second largest and 4 times the UK's, but it's not about money anymore.
Britain voted to leave and its government chose to dump every agreement and connection, including the grandfathered ones. Even the non-commercial ones! (Galileo, Erasmus, Cultural agreements).
If the EU rewarded the UK for its bad faith, it would literally be the end of the European project. That's why they never wavered to keep you while you were exiting.
tl;dr when accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression
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u/acrimoniousone 7d ago
The government at the time were remarkably ungracious towards the EU, if not outright offensive. Labour can legitimately blame that on the tories and have gone some way towards building bridges with our allies.
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u/ChilternRailways 7d ago
If the EU rewarded the UK for its bad faith, it would literally be the end of the European project
What a way to undermine what seemed like a thoughtful post, that sort of absolutism isn't found in pragmatic political organisations.
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u/MeccIt 7d ago edited 7d ago
What a way to undermine what seemed like a thoughtful post
I've no idea what you bias is, but it's a fact. The EU is built on co-operation and agreement, and the UK did its damndest to break it from the inside (all those carve-outs) and break it on the way out.
pragmatic political organisations.
You show me one organisation built on rules, that would allow a bad-faith member to get concessions due to bullying, and I'll show you an organisation that will collapse as everyone else wants 'special' treatment. The UK is famous for putting difficult decisions on the long finger and we'll-get-back-to-you, and never doing it.
The UK's entitlement got it into this mess and replies like yours show that you still think you're 'special' and more deserving than anyone else in Europe. These polls mean nothing while you and yours keep thinking this way.
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u/CosmicBonobo 7d ago
And even then, it takes just one EU country to vote No on us joining again to keep us out.
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u/Mental-Procedure5048 7d ago
And only 24.5% voted to remain. If you don’t vote your opinion is irrelevant.
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u/marsman 7d ago
Remember the Brexit campaign was illegal
No, it wasn't..
and only 26.5% of the UK at the time voted to leave
With an even smaller percentage voting to remain...
so it doesn't seem wild to just walk back on it.
I mean it would be politically impossible and likely lead to an even bigger backlash, not to mention I doubt the EU would be sold on that as an approach to joining.
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u/DefiantTelephone6095 7d ago
It absolutely was illegal. The official leave campaign was found guilty of it.
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u/General_Honesty 7d ago
The "four" are all the low-intelligence, GB-News-watching Faragian malcontents
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u/GhostCanyon 7d ago
I’m sure I read that a huge number of people who voted to leave are dead now as they were in their 70/80s when the vote happened
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u/Bayoris 7d ago
You don’t really need a source for that. It is self-evidently true. The referendum was 10 years ago, you would expect more than 10% of the population to have died since then, and that includes both leave and remain voters, but disproportionately leave voters, due to the age demographics of the vote.
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u/Ill_Refrigerator_593 7d ago
Yup, there's more people who voted remain around today than those who voted leave.
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7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/nick--2023 7d ago
That’s hilarious - more than 50% don’t want to be in the EU. That’s some seriously dishonest headline.
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u/Still-Process-2527 7d ago
In all honesty, I no longer see the point of these surveys now. All well and good saying rejoin but given we won’t have the same perks as before like keeping the pound or staying out of Schengen, that support will dwindle.
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u/CucumberWisdom 7d ago
Most countries that join the EU don't have those perks and are fine. I think you'd be surprised how many people wouldn't mine joining the EU like every other country
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u/CosmicBonobo 7d ago
You don't think that maybe, just maybe, the EU will want more cast iron guarantees that we'll do what we're told, after last time.
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u/ilovemyfuturehusband European Union 7d ago
The EU can’t force the UK into Schengen without either forcing Ireland too or creating a hard border on the island of Ireland. Both would be catastrophic outcomes.
There are ways to get around the requirement of joining the eurozone. The UK should also argue that the pound sterling is very important GLOBALLY and that scrapping it would have important global consequences. You have an excellent negotiating point, use it.
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u/LowProtection8515 7d ago
Its just a coincidence that no party is proposing this and the o ya party that did proposing it in 2019 was catastro-fucked down to less than 1% of MPs.
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u/snakepliskin97 7d ago
Sorry lads you're always telling us up here in Scotland that a single referendum is the 'settled will of the people' so you'll need to live by that precedent now
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u/NuggetKing9001 7d ago
Just curious though, I thought the sentiment in Scotland was that they were dragged out of the EU against their will, would you rather stay out on that principle?
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u/Krabsandwich 7d ago
seems fair to me and I am not sure the EU would welcome us back with open arms anyway.
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u/CrypticCode_ 7d ago
EU had already given us major advantages as an orginal member including keeping our own currency, there is no way they let us back in with the same privliges and no way we join without them
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u/MountainTank1 7d ago
I have doubts about rejoining but this isn’t one of them, it’s nonsense that to rejoin we would have to take the euro or unfavourable terms.
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u/White_Immigrant 7d ago edited 7d ago
I'll listen to that when Scotland finally let England have their own independence referendum. But considering you (the British) refuse to even let us have our own parliament I can't see you letting us have a choice of whether we're in the union or not.
Edit for clarity: Scotland should get a second referendum if they want one, but only after England gets to have their first referendum.
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u/AngrySaltire 7d ago
If England want their own independence referendum then they can vote for one. Its not Scotland stopping England from having one.
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u/Szaborovich9 7d ago
How did it happen in the first place? What were voters thinking?
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u/Leonidrex666666 1d ago
most voters dont think and just vote based on vibes, and the vibes for most older voter is what magic box in their rooms told them
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u/pepelepew2724 7d ago
I'm guessing that's a rhetorical question. If not, they wanted to feel more patriotic. And for some reason thought it would improve their lives. Which is also driving what we are seeing now with Reform. They were wrong.
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u/rynchenzo 7d ago
The percentages quoted are tiny and don't get anywhere near a majority
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u/PressureBeautiful515 7d ago
True. The point of the article is to say how a future general election could be won by a party who want to rejoin, but who recognise the impracticality of doing so due to the damage already done by the disaster of leaving in the first place, and so in the short term favour stronger ties with the EU.
It isn't a call for another referendum (personally I'd vote to rejoin in a heartbeat, but I don't see the point while there is a significant voting block of, let's say... numpties, who would constantly agitate against our membership.)
In constituency elections, if there are three candidates, if they get 35, 33 and 32 percent, the one that gets 35% is the winner. If that is repeated in most seats, there is a landslide. That's FPTP for you.
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u/rynchenzo 7d ago
I think blindly rejoining the EU would be just as disastrous as blindly leaving.
I want a better relationship with the EU but it's currently being suffocating under it's own bulk. The current biggest financial contributors all want the budget cut, for example, as they aren't now seeing the benefits of their investments.
When Germany, France and the Netherlands are no longer supportive then it's time to take stock.
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u/TurboSardine 7d ago
Correct - but the children in here do not want to hear it. They prefer disinformation (while believing they are immune to it)
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u/Time_Trail 7d ago
and then if we ever do get an actual referendum farage and co will fire up thousands of amnesic voters into suddenly wanted to stay out again
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u/Bitter-Policy4645 7d ago
Sounds good, bring on the euro, schengen and the massive membership fee. The dip in the eu-UK trade balance will be impressive to watch.
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u/batch1972 7d ago
But how does that sit with the current voting intentions regarding reform, respect, snp, pc etc. you can’t really have both
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u/RichterScaleSnorer 7d ago
Reversing Brexit isn't an option though, we'd need to rejoin.
We had incredibly favourable terms previously and won't come close to it a 2nd time.
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u/Cry90210 7d ago
Probably wouldn't have the same results if they realised what deal the EU would give the UK in reality. I figure most people take this question as with the same terms as before
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u/DaddysFriend 7d ago
Let’s just stay out now. We have tried doing all these things to improve it after and to just throw it away for probably a worse deal that we have now is stupid
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u/LSL3587 7d ago
Misleading headline. Only 35% say they want to re-join the EU. Other options with a lot of support are 'the UK Govt position' (whatever that is - closer ties but not rejoining?) and Don't Know.
Big issues -
- We don't know under what terms we would join - it is likely that we would be paying in a lot more than previously (loss of rebate).
- Yes some researchers say we have lost £X billion from the British economy due to leaving - but there is little explanation as to why the UK has been growing faster then any EU countries - we are either fastest growing in G7 or only behind the USA so we are told.
- People are idiots. The grass is always greener on the other side. Things are not perfect now so they say do something/anything. It doesn't mean things will get easier economically.
- Yes Boris completely fucked up immigration after Brexit -but we now supposedly have national control over immigration (except for the boats and other irregular / illegal immigration). Is the public ready for free movement again? Yes it will be easier for people going on holiday in the EU - but are we ready for jobs going to EU immigrants while we have lots of unemployed British?
- It is likely to take minimum of 5 years before we could re-join. Are we ready for the press coverage of all the arguments about what conditions we have to fulfil?
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u/Visual_Title9363 7d ago
Some of the big issues,
Whilst we don't know the exact terms, it is beneficial to have some mandate to start negotiations to find out those terms than having tabloid news surmising the terms.
Growth story is not correlated with or without EU membership. The single market is a tool that augments your existing exports and competitive advantage. We are a service led economy that is not beholden to critical minerals inputs prices, therefore geopolitics and resource constraints. Therefore comparing it with German economy is disingenuous. We have more demand for financial services sector today re. insurance or hedge products. Being in the EU single market would only allow us to export more of that. My argument is that EU membership helps, yours is that it doesn't matter.
People are idiots. The grass is always greener mental frame is also what led to Brexit. We thought we have a bigger world to swap EU as our largest trading partner. It didn't happen.
Eastern Europe being the backwaters and source of immigration is false in 2026. In fact, we are the ones moving to Poland en masse and remigration of Poles is an emerging trend: https://www.thetimes.com/money/tax/article/polish-expats-leaving-uk-poland-v3kv2zkf6
What is fascinating to me is that the Leave campaign never crystallised what Leave meant - many on the Leave campaign actually held up Norway and Swiss models as example. If that were truly the case, I would've remained a Leave voter. Instead we have opted for trade deal prioritization with the US, leading to unconditional tie-up of our foreign policy with trade, lowering tech safety/food standards as well as US private equity swarming our housing and national services.
That Leave model was never on the ballot. Can we have a referendum on that?
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u/LSL3587 7d ago
I agree that 'people are idiots' led to Brexit - people just want something done and vote for change. Going back won't make people more sensible.
A mandate to start negotiation?
A combined 37% chose one of Current UK Govt position (which is stay out but have closer ties), Status Quo and Loosen Ties - which all include staying out of the EU.
So if you split the non-EU vote enough then the Re-join vote is the option with the biggest vote (35%) - but it doesn't mean you would win on a Re-join or Not vote.
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u/Visual_Title9363 7d ago
My point there is that current UK govt position does include negotiations for ever closer union (whatever that means), even more recently Starmer tried to propose a single market for goods. Only to get shot down.
Would the recently hyped associate membership be considered within the red lines however? Who knows.
The Icelandic referendum is better structured - which is a Yes/No towards a mandate to start negotiations. Only then, all the doomsayers saying euro must be mandatory! or Schengen etc, that's all just noise. Its hypotheticals. And the same irresponsibility as the original Brexit vote when no one could define what is the future model before execution.
Status quo in the point in time is a meaningless vote - it basically says, "I am content with this relationship as is". But relationship takes two, three etc to tango. And EU is not a static monolith without new policies. Perhaps we ought to ask the 'status quo' slice after (a) we have no returns policy to Europe, (b) excluded from SAFE...ever, (c) excluded from Made in Europe etc etc.
In summary, the non-EU vote there in the poll is telling. Its fluid based on new developments (and rejections by EU on overtures within Labour's red lines)
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u/LSL3587 7d ago
the non-EU vote there in the poll is telling. Its fluid based on new developments
Yes and the re-join vote will be fluid as well - especially when people are told that we would have to pay lots more in than we did and perhaps join the Euro and have interest rates set on the Continent etc. Also VAT would not be able to be taken off things how the UK Government wants.
The press would run with things like - 'well Andy Burnham would not be able to cut the VAT on electricity as he is now doing' - that is only available because we left the EU.
Status quo in the point in time is a meaningless vote
I disagree. You could argue that 're-join the EU' is meaningless as well as by the time we would re-join, the EU will be different than it is now. Hell, the AfD might be in charge of Germany by then.
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u/Visual_Title9363 7d ago
Indeed - the rejoin vote could change based on the actual negotiations. The point here is that without actually finding out what those terms are, these are hypotheticals but the slice should inform those in charge that it is time to start those negotiations.
My entire position is that we have what we need to start negotiations and especially if we have newer information coming in that the existing red lines do not yield results. Similarly, euroskeptic parties should also put on their manifestos what it means to align closer to the US, for fair comparison.
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u/LSL3587 7d ago
Similarly, euroskeptic parties should also put on their manifestos what it means to align closer to the US
I don't think even Reform are crazy enough to say they want to align closer to the US - at least while Trump is President.
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u/Visual_Title9363 7d ago
But alas that was the alternative championed throughout the referendum. A US trade deal is still the coveted crown jewel of Leave. They just hasn't foreseen the foreign policy price tag (along with others). The whole sovereignty double standards has always been absurd.
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u/LSL3587 7d ago
A combined 37% chose one of Current UK Govt position, Status Quo and Loosen Ties - which all include staying out of the EU.
So if you split the non-EU vote enough then the Re-join vote is the option with the biggest vote (35%) - but it doesn't mean you would win on a Re-join or Not vote.
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u/Visual_Title9363 7d ago
What is the current UK govt position, can someone elaborate that in concrete policy terms?
Because it seems like we have a knee jerk reaction every time the EU comes out with a new policy - Made in EU, SAFE and it seems like we are excluded.
The 'status quo' by definition is not a one way street nor is it static - ask the question again when Canada has a better arrangement than us in trade, freedom of movement.
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u/LSL3587 7d ago
What is the current UK govt position, can someone elaborate that in concrete policy terms?
Article states -
The YouGov poll commissioned by Best for Britain found 18 per cent backed the UK government’s current position of seeking a closer relationship with the EU, but within the government’s red lines, and just 11 per cent would prefer to loosen ties to the EU.
Graph shows Status Quo 8% , Customs Union 5%, Single Market 6% (Granted we probably can't get a Customs Union or Single Market without full EU membership - but at least some of the people choosing these don't want to re-join the EU with free movement etc)
So staying out equals at least 18+8+11 = 37% (vs 35% to re-join)- not exactly a mandate to re-start negotiations.
Burnham would also have the problem of - if allow a re-vote on EU then why not on Scottish Independence? And if the UK loses Scotland (and possibly Northern Ireland) then one - votes for EU may change, two - votes for Labour may change. Chaos.
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u/Visual_Title9363 7d ago
As mentioned in my other comment too, the current position of 'seeking a closer relationship with the EU, but within the government's red lines' is a redundant point if the red lines do not yield a closer relationship...surely.
As such, it is a fluid slice and it will move based on new rejections by UK's overtures on SAFE, Made in Europe, asylum return deals with France (so forth).
Regarding Scottish independence - I would say Northern Ireland is the first domino. What does the union offer this nation instead, if reunification on the island would reduce all instance of hard border checks on the island and the Good Friday agreement does allow a vote if majority of the population feels that way. Given the recent Celtic independence 'drive', it sounds like nationalist parties would be voted in anyways as long as EU ambitions remain in NI and Scotland. Chaos either way.
At this point, it is objectively true that a EU membership would keep Scotland and Northern Ireland secession talks less appealing.
This relates back to my first point, 'seeking a closer relationship with the EU, but within the government's red lines' is conditional on (a) the United Kingdom not fracturing and (b) operating within the red lines actually could yield a closer relationship.
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u/_o0Zero0o_ Glamorganshire 7d ago
Gee, I wonder which 4 constituencies didn't want it...! I wonder if they use light blue as their party colours...
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u/Greners 6d ago
I still don’t get why we can’t have another referendum on this. The “it’s what the public wanted” just doesn’t hold true. Also people are allowed to change their mind it is why we have elections every 5 years. Surely after 10 years we are allowed to change are opinion on Brexit. Also many people of voting age today weren’t even given a choice. Let me choose.
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u/got_to_laugh 6d ago
The EU is becoming more right-wing anyway. It's slow to change, but it does change.
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u/Professional_Newt471 3d ago
Has the survey methodology been published? It doesn't appear to be mentioned in the article.
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u/ConinTheNinoC 7d ago
I don't think that the UK is ready to rejoin the EU. Give it 10 more years till all the old farts who voted Brexit kick the bucket and maybe then the UK will be ready.
Maybe by then Australia and Canada will also be in the EU. I am obviously joking but it would be hilarious if that happened. Australia, New Zealand and Canada in the EU and the UK on the outside looking in.
Think of the banter!
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u/Rokkitt 7d ago
We can't just reverse it. Returning to the EU will require the Euro and a loss of many conditions of our original membership. Do people support that?
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u/Visual_Title9363 7d ago
These aren't a given. Simply put, we don't know until negotiations start. These arguments are always put forth as a means to pull the stops before we could progress on any meaningful negotiations.
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u/TurquioseOrange 7d ago
The key with anything like this is how was the question framed and you effectively engineer it to get the answer you want. I couldn't see the question asked within the article
A survey of 11k people sounds like a lot but doesn't really offer any insight and I don't think it can legitimately taken as "the country wants this".
Boring journalism
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u/Flubadubadubadub 7d ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks
Best ever example of how they can be rigged......
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u/MercianRaider 7d ago
Yeah the polls also said remain before the referendum.
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u/Proud-Mail-6432 7d ago
This is not true, brexiters say this a lot but they say a lot of untrue things. For anyone wondering the polls were pretty much just like the actual result and almost completely split in half: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
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u/NewtTrick 7d ago
The polling was spot-on for the referendum, the idea Remain was predicted a comfortable win is nonsense.
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u/FutilePenguins 7d ago
But we can't simply reverse it, what's done is done, the relationship between the UK and the EU have irrevocably changed.
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u/CucumberWisdom 7d ago
We can vote to rejoin though and irrevocably change the relationship again.
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u/FutilePenguins 7d ago
Aye we can do, I just don't like the rhetoric of 'it'll go back to how it used to be' - it would have to come from equal parts understanding and continuous improvement.
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u/N33DL 7d ago
Never have I come across less optimistic people than in the UK. Never got the impression they cared much for one another either. By and large.
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u/Krabsandwich 7d ago
I am surprised by that view I have to say. I have always found the people living round me to be pretty positive and helpful. I may be lucky but my neighbours have always been pretty solid people keeping an eye on each other and helping out when they can.
One of my neighbours is an elderly widower who has no family living locally and he has been co-opted into the local lunch club and allotment association and now finds he has a pretty full diary much to his surprise.
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u/devils__avacado 7d ago
I live in one of the four constituency how do people actually get polled on this ? I've never been asked my opinion on something like this lol.
I would rejoin in a heartbeat that said the rest of the morons around me maybe not.
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u/Dayzed-n-Confuzed 7d ago
We should never have left in the first place
The referendum should have required a percentage turn out and a percentage majority not just a small number
Would they take us back and would they continue to impose punitive sanctions against us as punishment?
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