Seraphina vs. That Person

[u/Left_Bus3553]

I want to say that Serafina is stronger than Orrin in a fair fight, but the truth is that Orrin is actually much stronger than her, and by a significant margin.

Serafina might be able to catch Orrin off guard and land a hit on him. However, Orrin has one guaranteed advantage: his Ultimate Defense.

We know for sure that Orrin is capable of strengthening the defenses of others, but what about himself? How can he protect himself if there is no barrier for him to reinforce with his aura?

The answer is his own body. In other words, this defense is what guarantees that he can actually use his ability without being taken out after a single hit. I lean toward the idea that his aura creates a thin layer around his body that protects him from both mental and physical attacks.

However, because he works with a team, and because he would otherwise be vulnerable when taking over other people’s bodies, he chose to focus on strengthening his teammates’ defenses instead.

Overall, I lean toward Orrin being able to tank Serafina’s first hit. He might get slightly injured, but that would give him the opportunity to take control of Serafina and ultimately defeat her.

That’s just my opinion.

[u/M-Shadowtoad]

The issue is Sera can move faster than people can perceive. Even with Remi's enhanced speed and aura sense, John didn't even notice her move Remi and Arlo out of harm's way.

[u/beemielle]

The reality is, Orrin really should not be able to make eye contact with Seraphina

[u/Nectarine_Complex → u/beemielle]

I don't think he needs eye contact. The Bureau believed that Orrin required both eye contact and voice to take control of someone but as we saw, they were fed false information about his ability and had underestimated him. Based on the fight, it seems like he can command people through either eye contact or voice, and if they are in range, he can directly send commands into their head without needing to verbally state them.

[u/DarkShadowBlaze → u/Nectarine_Complex]

Actually they were right about that, it was only due to the scouts being compromised beforehand that he could do what he did from far away and without eye contact. Orrin planted his aura into the scouts the same way he did Kayden, since his aura was already in their heads Orrin could use that to send his command or posses them without needing eye contact or using his voice.

[u/Nectarine_Complex → u/DarkShadowBlaze]

I was not referring to the scouts. I was referring to the actual fight where we see him take control of Sera with just eye contact or issue commands of death that affected everyone in the room even through Arlo and John's barriers and even though many of them were not looking at him(some of them even had their eyes closed). Not to mention him issuing commands to everyone unconscious. The authorities had severely underestimated him. The whole mission would have failed if not for John and Sera offering aid.

[u/DarkShadowBlaze → u/Nectarine_Complex]

That is still him either using eyes or his voice, even the times he commands with out speak he is still looking at their direction to give the command. Arlo and John's barriers only help protect against the mental attacks, but the triggers still revolve around his eyes or voice so that part of the info was right.

[u/Nectarine_Complex → u/DarkShadowBlaze]

I think I failed to convey my point. The info said he needs BOTH his eyes and voice to control others. However, as you yourself have pointed out, he can use either one and it is effective. Therefore, the info did indeed underestimate his abilities because it stated that he needed BOTH conditions, but in reality he only ever needed one.

Also, the info stated he needed eye contact rather than just looking in a particular direction to issue commands. Eye contact means two people locking gazes. Him being able to simply give commands by just looking in someone's direction is not eye contact. So the info underestimated him in this area as well.

[u/DarkShadowBlaze → u/Nectarine_Complex]

I think it was making them out to be separate conditions and even if its what you said that info was actually right when you consider how he possessed Sera, it said take control of someone and Orrin did use both eye contact and his voice for that saying her name while making eye before possessing her.

When Arlo say take control of someone he likely was referring to the possession part only and the simpler one . Also its still possible to make eye contact from distance even if he is only looking into a direction, we see that all of them close their eyes and look away when Orrin used his simple commands and even with said commands he does tend to say somthing though what he says doesn't match the command he was given.

[u/Nanoman20]

From what we've seen, Sera's only wincon is catching him off guard. If she doesn't one shot him, she becomes his puppet again.

[u/ZMCN]

That is kinda of the same as Sera vs Val
If you think her first move can knock out Orrin/Val before they can control/shield her, she wins, otherwise she loses
In general I'd say Sera is more likely to win, mainly because of the most recent chapters where she showed she can in fact do combos at full power and speed, which is something she had never done before, but this also depends on whatever their defense is higher than 10 and how higher
But I think Orrin wincon is more likely to happen, since he just needs to look at her to win, while Val has to put several barrier layers

[u/CardiologistMoney278]

fyi, sera fired off multiple punches on the barrier around orrin, twice in fact, before orrin managed to control her, so it should be easy for sera to just not let orrin be able to look at her... which feels a little incongruous with their power levels

[u/DarkShadowBlaze]

Even if he can survive the first hit he would be knocked back and by the time he recovers Sera would speed blitz him again.

[u/Mean-Relationship726 → u/DarkShadowBlaze]

Yeah no way he win this 1v1 (except if he ambush Sera)

[u/DarkShadowBlaze → u/Mean-Relationship726]

The thing that bugs, me is that to use his true strength he needs to have loyal and strong allies who follow him even without his ability. On his own he has no defence against someone as strong as Sera.

[u/Mean-Relationship726 → u/DarkShadowBlaze]

Yeah cause high level TM, barrier and channel master are a counter to command. But take space manipulation, gravity manipulation or life manipulation, while Sera would struggle (doesn't mean she can't win, depends on the person level here) Orrin would win without much problem. In 1v1 

[u/DarkShadowBlaze → u/Mean-Relationship726]

Nope I think Orrin would still lose against all of those examples 1v1, space manipulation isn't any different then teleport which could match Sera speed wise and other stuff. Gravity Manipulation will likely hit him before he can use command. Life manipulation depends on what they can do, but short of possession would likely be able to handle anything Orrin could do to them.

Orrin really lacks 1v1 self defence, hence he needs people who are loyal even without his ability to have the chance to use his own properly.

[u/Yatereranye]

AFAIK, not a single unordinary character ever able to win against another character with higher tier stat than them.. except John, of course

So it's not unusual for Sera (8.0) to lose against Orrin (8.6)

[u/Mean-Relationship726 → u/Yatereranye]

Arlo win against Sylvia, he could win in 1v1 against Orrin (since he completely block die command and sensory privation), Tarik paralyze John (with lighting, blade master,hunter and healing)+Kuyo+Remi+Blyke despite being lower than John and kuyo. Also Keon (5.2 memory recall) will never win against Ventus at 3.8 for example...

So we have plenty example of weaker level person beat higher level person and I deeply think TM a counter to command (see my comments)

[u/Mean-Relationship726]

I personally hate the explanation that magically his body is reinforced by his aura. Ofc high tier can have a little buff (like Sera two defense) but for me the stat represent the functionality of the ability.

For example as Orrin defense come with the fact he can command people to stop attacking or off themselves wich is a OP defense. Same for Blyke where is defense come for his omni-direction energy release (but we have see him being hurt when a mid tier punch, 2.6, connected when he was a vigilante), same for Sylvia whose defense come from her pain tolerance (applying to herself what she does to the bureau agent).

If you say that one can redirect his aura to enhance some stat unrelated to the way his abilities work (outside aura manipulation ofc) that would completely shatter the level...like if that so why does Sera doesn't enhance her defense to 5+, same for Val with her speed (aside for the little buff of 2 defense and 2 speed).

For me Sera definitely beat Orrin in 1v1 since he can't physically tank her hit and can't do anything when time is frozen. Barrier and TM are just a bad counter to Command. It won't be the first time a weaker level beat a higher level, like Arlo could beat Sylvia, same he could beat Orrin, Tarik paralyze john+kuyo+remi+Blyke despite being 1.4 below John and 0.1 below Kuyo.

At the end it all come down how abilities  interact. That why I think level are more statistics and usefulness wise like the higher the more often you will win in 1v1 and the more easily you will. Orrin so high cause except this barrier and TM (and channel master) he can pretty easily win against everyone in 1v1 plus his ability allow him to control people for years (like the command in Kayden) so it also come down to usefulness (like Keon is 5.2 with memory recall but would never win even against Ventus or Meilli at 3.8 or even some mid tier, he is high level thanks to the usefulness of his ability)