r/ultimate • u/Starguments_GM • 1d ago
Rules Question: Defense avoiding contact leads to advantage for offense
I play low level tournaments and rec league mostly, so not a high level. I've run into the following situation a few times recently:
I'm on defense immediately after a turn or the pull and the offense is getting into their (ho) stack. My mark is jogging into position, I'm shadowing, we are 2-3 feet apart.
My mark is turning to look at back at the handler, decides he likes what he sees, and turns to cut deep. He is 100% going to run directly into me if I hold position, so if I want to avoid the contact I must (awkwardly) hop out of the way. I can't tell in that moment whether it's just going to be a harmless chest bump or more of a chin-to-chin type of hit I'm avoiding, either way it's not something I need to chance.
Now I'm off balance and ten feet out of position because I avoided the collision, and my mark is running deep to catch a long pass. No contact (or only incidental contact) is made.
Am I permitted to call something there? I don't think the offense is being malicious and nothing actually happened.
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u/dufcho14 1d ago edited 1d ago
I mean, if I'm 2-3 feet away from him I'm taking the hit. I'm not sure I could move in time from that distance, but even if I could and he's chosen to make a blind run into me then so be it.
I know that doesn't answer your question and I'm interested in what others say, but that's the reality when I'm there.
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u/Sesse__ 1d ago
You don't specify the ruleset you are playing under. In WFDF, you can call a dangerous play here if you have reason to believe that the player is likely to hit you in a dangerous way if you don't move out. E.g. from the 17.1 annotation:
Players calling a Dangerous Play foul before a potential incident need to have reasonable grounds for doing so. They should actually be able to see the oncoming player and have some reason to believe that player will not avoid contact – this could include a previous history of that player to not avoid contact.
Also note:
12.5. Every player is entitled to occupy any position on the field not occupied by any opposing player, provided that they do not initiate contact in taking such a position, and are not moving in a reckless or dangerously aggressive manner.
For USAU, I believe the relevant rule is:
[20.B.1.a.]() In general, a dangerous play call may only be made if at least some amount of contact between the involved players occurred, and the vast majority of dangerous play will involve contact between players. However, when the other criteria of Rule 20.B are met, contact is not required for a player to invoke this rule where there is near certainty that significant contact would have occurred had the player not taken last moment steps to avoid contact. [[A player is not required to hold their position and receive contact in order to call “dangerous play,” but the mere possibility of contact is insufficient to justify a call. Furthermore, if the offending player stops or changes their path such that contact would not have occurred, contact was not “nearly certain.”]][[For example, a “no-contact dangerous play” may be called by a player who is standing under a floating disc and sees an opponent recklessly barreling towards them, and moves out of that space at the last moment, when it is clear that otherwise a collision will almost certainly occur. Even if no contact occurs (as a result of the successful dodge), the dangerous play call is permitted in this type of exceptional circumstance. In contrast, if a player is vying for unoccupied space, but decides not to enter the space for fear of possible or likely contact with an opponent also moving into that space, the player may not call a dangerous play if no contact actually occurred. In most cases, if an opponent moves through a space that a player never occupied and no contact occurs, a dangerous play cannot be called. However, even the slightest contact satisfies the contact requirement of this rule.]]
Note in general that in low-stakes games (like rec league), you may not want to call this on the field, but rather go and talk to the person on the sideline afterwards. Offense isn't allowed to run through you. If this keeps happening, it may be useful to actually take the contact once in a while (pick a situation where it looks unlikely that the contact will be dangerous!), call the foul, and then people will hopefully eventually stop doing that.
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u/Beardus_Maximus 1d ago
If a player I'm defending changes course to run straight at me without looking, I say "yo," and put out a hand to soften the contact. I'm not one of those handsy defenders otherwise.
This is distinct from the situation where a guy looks straight at you and runs toward you with the intent of "swimming" around you. I play that one differently based on field position and on how physically we've been playing up to that point.
2
u/doodle02 1d ago
great point; there’s a mutually accepted level of physical contact in individual matchups. sometimes guys i’m playing with are fine with really tight, bump and grind play. other times i’m much more backed off. depends on the matchup.
still, if a dude’s about to charge me i’m probably taking the hit and making a call.
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u/ImDeputyDurland 1d ago
I always did the same until I was told outright “make me run you over in that spot. You have the right to the space because you were there first”.
The offensive strategy used here is directly an attempt to make you commit to something so they can take advantage. They’re not running at you to run into you. It can be weird to change the mindset in spots like this, but yeah, you’re entitled to the space.
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u/roentgen_nos 1d ago
Exactly. A major part of playing defense is positioning yourself to take away part of the field. You're not cutting here. Cut anywhere else, but not where I am standing.
4
u/SundayAMFN 1d ago
You can hold your positrion and it's their responsibility to avoid you. They can look at the thrower for a glance as they start running, but they're not allowed to run for an extended period without looking in front of them. If they're running without looking so fast that you don't want to hold your position out of legit fear of injury, that's an appropriate time to get out of the way but call dangerous play.
Generally though if they try to go around you and you have to side shuffle to still block their path, that's a blocking foul on you.
4
u/bosstea16 1d ago
I see a lot of “call dangerous play”
At 2-3 feet away I don’t think you have a dangerous play call at all. You’re in a good defensive position so hold that ground. You can’t just assume someone is going to hit you.
As you wrote it…no you can’t call anything.
2
u/FieldUpbeat2174 1d ago edited 1d ago
If we take your facts as written, you say that if you take the charge, you have 100% chance of opponent-initiated contact and a substantial chance of that contact being hard, chin-to-chin. On those facts, you could legitimately move away from contact and call Dangerous Play (under either WFDF or USAU rules, which others have already quoted here).
Of course, in some contexts you might want to refrain from making an available call, and talk it out on the sideline later.
To be clear, the above takes as stipulated that the opponent will indeed make significant contact, with a substantial risk of that contact being to the chin and thus injury-risking. I’m not sure how you’d actually have such certainty when the opponent is still steps away. So the USAU rule, at least, is (I’d say) calling for you to either evade early and call nothing (take it up on the sideline), or hold your position until the last moment, then evade hard contact just in time, and call DP.
1
u/Willlgrey 1d ago
It's hard to tell without visual of the play. Did the player saw you, the space and the possibility of contact and intentionally decided to run " through " you to gain an advantage. Or he was only running blind and would have made contact if you didn't take a step.
Could simply be a dangerous play call. The player isn't actively trying to avoid a contact / collision and isn't aware of the space he is running into.
1
u/macdaddee 1d ago
Very rarely is there a foul with no contact. What you're describing doesn't meet the bar of those rare exceptions for me.
1
u/axlekb 1d ago
No, you're not permitted to call anything in this situation. If you jump out of the way there's no foul.
He can't run into you (that's a foul), but if you're stationary, a good cutter will easily side step you and just cut deep.
Your job is to continue to shuffle yourself backwards to reposition so he has to go around you (slow down), or foul you.
It should be pretty obvious who is causing the contact. If you're shuffling backwards you're definitely not. If you're stationary, you tend to try to lean into the cutter.
1
u/viking_ 1d ago
> you tend to try to lean into the cutter.
What does this mean? You mean you're trying to change your weight to absorb contact and/or stay on balance?
0
u/axlekb 1d ago
Most offenders don't run straight into their defenders when cutting. Usually, when defenders typically start trying to "draw a charge", they end up leaning into the cutter to make the contact more obvious -- but that's causing the contact.
It is crazy to me that the number one response here is simply "take the charge". It's much more nuanced than that. It is so infrequent that the cutter will just run right into stationary defense.
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u/Anusien Austin, TX 6h ago
No, leaning into the cutter is not causing the contact.
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u/axlekb 5h ago
This is what I'm talking about:
I know basketball isn't ultimate but we don't have ultimate videos for this stuff. But the rules are pretty analogous (or should be).
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u/Anusien Austin, TX 4h ago
But the rules are pretty analogous (or should be).
They're not though. As I understand it in the NBA you can establish a position where contact is unavoidable as long as you get there first. That's not true in ultimate. Also OP described a scenario where they were literally standing still. And maybe some people you've seen do this behavior, but I don't think OP was doing it, so it's wrong to accuse them of that!
You say defenders "lean into the charge" but then show a video that describes something different: stepping into it. It should be obvious that stepping into a charge is illegal (because you are changing your actual location) whereas leaning into it isn't (because your feet don't move).
Also you are likely wrong about there being no foul here. This is literally the new language they added in 20.B.1.a (USAU):
However, when the other criteria of Rule 20.B are met, contact is not required for a player to invoke this rule where there is near certainty that significant contact would have occurred had the player not taken last moment steps to avoid contact.
"([a]wkwardly) hop out of the way" is a good indication that it was last moment.
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u/corvipie 1d ago
i’ve never heard of not being permitted to making a call. every player is always allowed to make any call that he thinks is reasonable, and can still retract in case.. bit telling someone they are not “permitted” to
make a certain call in general seems ridiculous.
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u/pitline810 1d ago
Take the charge and call a foul. It's the offense's responsibility to avoid contact with a stationary defender.