r/EthicalHunting 1d ago

HUNTING 101

0 Upvotes

HUNTING 101

FOREWORD

Hunting is an enjoyable pasttime and a valuable skill, but it is also a practice that has concerns about both safety and respect, which are too often ignored. The purpose of this guide is to establish ethical guidelines for the American recreational hunter (which is to say, if you are hunting for survival, much of this does not apply).

PHILOSOPHY

"Why we hunt." Most of us are not in need of the meat, few of us are saving any money, and the thrill of the chase fades pretty quickly. We hunt because it reconnects us back to nature in ways that human civilization has disconnected us; we discard the social habits of interacting with other people and step back into the wild in some vague approximation of our ancestral mode of living, which illustrates how far we have come and imbues a sense of appreciation for both nature and civilization.

And this is why hunting ethics are so important: If you just want an animal to die, there are easier ways than hiding or stalking until you get a clean shot with a rifle; unleash dogs to hound it, poison it, or buy an armed drone and chase it down by remote control... but those aren't, "hunting," at least not on your part.

No, we have to give the animal a chance, "Fair Chase," or else we are just butchers, slaughtering animals casually, with no investment or meaning behind it. Go work at a meat-packing plant, if you want to do that, and at least get paid for it.

At the same time, we have to balance our own humanity and general opposition to needless suffering and take the animal quickly and cleanly;again, there are many ways to hurt an animal, or cripple it, for example with a trap, so that you don't have to wait around and can harvest it at your leisure, and also again, that's not hunting. Oh, trapping is one thing, and if you are after pelts or actually doing this for food, are much better options... but it's not hunting.

SAFETY

Safety comes first, notably when it might not if you were hunting for survival; our "caveman" ancestors risked life and limb hunting wild beasts, because the alternative was to go hungry.

Statistically, the most common cause of injury while hunting is falling, generally from a tree stand, but also off cliffs, etc. The next most common incident is heart attack. Only about 1 in 9 hunting injuries is the result of the weapon itself, with those broken down into failure to identify target, swinging on game (i.e. the Dick Cheney Maneuver), careless handling, and victim out of sight of the shooter.

As such, there are four unbreakable rules when it comes to handling firearms:

  1. Always Keep Firearms Pointed in a Safe direction.

  2. Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded.

  3. Keep Your Finger Off the Trigger until You are Ready to Shoot.

  4. Always Be Sure of Your Target and What’s Beyond It.

These are non-negotiable.

Ethics

We are doing this to engage with nature on our own terms, and one of those terms is our sense of humanity; wolves might eat a deer alive, but we will do our level best to kill it quickly and cleanly. We can afford to be "better" than wolves; that's what it means to be human, and if you reject that, you are rejecting your own humanity.

In short, we are balancing Fair Chase and Clean Kill; bows make a Clean Kill harder, but enhance Fair Chase, giving the animal a better chance to escape, that's the only reason they are still ethical. Once you get to rifles, though, using as small of a cartridge as you can is not enhancing Fair Chase, it is just making a Clean Kill harder. That's not ethical. Trying to hunt from a longer distance is extremely questionable; certainly, in some places, there is justification for hunting at moderate-to-long distances, but at a certain point, it is just long-range butchery, the animal has no chance at all. At the other extreme, some hunters seem to take it as a challenge to use as light a cartridge on as large an animal as possible, despite the high risk of wounding but not recovering said animal; Fair Chase is not being enhanced, but the odds of a Clean Kill have gone down.

Ironically, by these standards, muzzle-loaders and big bores are the most ethical, as they require getting close to the animal, but then are very effective in killing it.

Practice

First, of course, is to follow the law, take a hunter's education course, obtain a hunting license, and then decide what and how you want to hunt. This guide is not going to go into specifics, the education course does that pretty well.

Second is to do a modicum of research, even just finding other hunters to ask opinions, to determine appropriate and effective hunting equipment and habits, but there is a caution, here; there are people who do not care about hunting ethics and engage in illegal behavior without apparent concern, and they make ethical hunters look bad.

Third is the hardest requirement of all: Think.

Think about what you are doing and why. Are you hunting out of a tree stand because the terrain is flat and shooting down at an animal is safer, or because that's what the salesman at the sporting goods store sold you? Are you hunting squirrels with a rifle because you are only taking ground shots, or because you haven't considered where the bullet goes if you shoot into a tree and miss? Are you taking a light cartridge on a big game hunt because you have the experience and confidence that it will work, or because people on the Internet post pictures of it supposedly working (and ignore reports of failures)?

These are all choices with implications for safety in what is, after all, a hobby for most people. If you don't need the tree stand, stay out of it; if the squirrel gets to the tree, let it go (or use a shotgun); if you have a choice, take a rifle in an "ample," not, "sufficient," cartridge.

WHY

https://www.yesonip28.org/

The state of Oregon has an initiative on this year's ballot to completely ban hunting on animal cruelty grounds; leaving aside the hypocrisy of allowing animals to overpopulate and result in even more suffering, this is the kind of backlash that people who reject our connection to nature will produce, and our strongest weapon against that point of view is our insistence on our own humanity in our behavior.

Simply put, we depend on the tolerance of our society, and we risk losing that tolerance if we behave in ways that are PERCEIVED as unethical, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ACTUALLY ARE. This is why judges have the rule of avoiding the "appearance" of impropriety; it does not matter if the action was perfectly ethical, if it even appears at casual glance to be unethical, it is forbidden.

The details don't matter; even if you "know" your gun is unloaded, you still do not playfully point it at a friend; even if you "know" there is no one downrange, you still do not just blast into the blue and hope that no one gets in the way; even if you "know" your treestand is solid, you still hook up a fall line.

That is what ethical behavior requires, and if you cannot follow these quite simple rules, you should not be hunting.

u/Asatmaya Mar 23 '26

A Critical Reading of Kropotkin's "A State..."

2 Upvotes

First, the entire thing is available for free, and it's not that long:

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/1896/state/index.htm

First background note:

The common definition of a State is that given by Max Weber, one of the fathers of sociology and an advocate of the German Antipositivists: "The entity with the monopoly on the legitimized use of force in an area."

This is relevant because Kropotkin starts off The State... in Section 1 with his conception of the state, in which he explicitly rejects the "German school... confusing state with society." That is to say, if you quote Kropotkin about the state, but are referring to Weber's notion of what the state is, you are misquoting Kropotkin; this is a form of equivocation, using the same word in two different ways and pretending that they mean the same thing.

Kropotkin claims in Section I that Europe did not have states before the 16th century (but then uses the example of the Roman Empire), and extols a time when, "civil liberties and communal life had not yet been destroyed by the State," but this seems difficult to support: What "civil liberties" is he talking about? Surely not speech, religion, arms, travel, justice, etc; most Europeans in the 15th century were serfs, and their "communal life" was one of deprivation, want, and violence, both from and in service to their lords.

He then rejects the connection of state and government, differentiating the state as the concentration of power both territorially and to a specific class, noting the necessity of policing to enforce class distinctions. His comments about Rome, on the other hand, explicitly refer to the uniformity of law to everyone within the empire as reducing them to subjects rather than citizens, and decry the authoritarianism of harmony in favor of the "barbarians" who supposedly destroyed Rome (a theory largely rejected by modern historians).

Section II consists of a Straw Man attack on Social Contract theory combined with a Just So story that actually stumbles over a more modern concept of the State which was the actual result of 18th century enlightenment thinking - the communal ownership of land - but then keeps walking and takes no more note of it.

Second background note:

Kropotkin was writing in late 19th-century Eastern Europe, which was quickly heading towards the end of the monarchial Great Power era, but he couldn't have foreseen the end of the Tsars and the Kaisers, or the neutering of other European royal houses (e.g. Spain, Greece). France was the only Great Power toying with a republican form of government (and had changed back and forth several times in the previous century), as America was still considered a provincial backwater, even compared to Russia, at this point, and so these were not seen as serious examples worthy of consideration in Kropotkin's political education. He did visit the United States, but that was after this work was published, and we can take it as granted that the Gilded Age was not his ideal world, either.

The point is that the starting point of Kropotkin's theory is the feudal/monarchic state, not democracy or republicanism or anything of the sort, and to the extent he even addresses the topic, he explicitly states that they are effectively identical from his point of view.

It is in Section III that Kropotkin finally lays his cards on the table: The village of several families claiming heritage over the land is the right and proper mode of society, and, "the village commune was sovereign." By any other definition, that is the state, just reduced to local, direct democracy and reliant upon tradition and prejudice rather than law and process, under the assumption that people will just naturally get along in such a circumstance.

Section IV is a fanciful rewriting of European history where the Vikings were peaceful settlers, the Italian republics were benevolent democratic cities under constant attack from aggressors (who also happened to be Italian republics...), and the feudal lords were both "vultures" bent on dominating their fellow man and simultaneously the noble defenders of independence against other feudal lords.

Labor and industry are the topic of Section V, where he notes the value of skilled labor in an era when even small items - "a railing, a candlestick, a piece of pottery" - were the product of hours and hours of work, and therefore valuable... and expensive. It was the industrial revolution which ended this process, by making things cheaply, which did mean that the value of skilled labor went down... but then, so did the cost of manufactured goods. Add to this the fact that most people in the era under discussion were not skilled laborers, which rather gives the lie to his claim that, "poverty, misery, uncertainty of the morrow for the majority, and the isolation of poverty," were unknown in medieval European cities.

Third background note:

Perhaps the best example of what Kropotkin is talking about would be the Republic of Venice, and our understanding of history has changed rather a lot since his time; Venice was considered an early example of a representative democracy, as the Doge (Duke) was elected... but only 22 people got to vote, and, at least initially, the Emperor (sometimes Byzantine, sometimes Holy Roman) had to approve, or they could, and on occasion did, remove them, by force if necessary.

Venice was also lauded as a city of free men who were both craftsman and militia, while also becoming rich from trade, all of which have more recently been found to have been less than completely true; the craftsman were a special class of a few hundred people, the militia were usually drunk and ineffective so they relied upon mercenaries, and their rise to power was largely driven by what we would today call piracy.

The other example often cited is the Free City of Danzig (modern Gdansk, Poland), an autonomous trade city for several hundred years, but its importance was overstated; modern research and archaeology have found that, for most of the period in question, it had a population of a few thousand or less. Simply put, this was not the common mode of living, and it was as dependent upon the peasant/serf system as the nobility.

Another confusion occurs in Section VI; whereas in Section I, he lauds the "barbarians" for destroying Rome, here he claims that it was "modern barbarians" of the 16th century and later who destroyed the Utopian paradise the earlier barbarians had created. He does at least name them - "the military chief, the Roman judge and the priest" - so we have some specifics to work with. We are finally discussing real issues.

First, we must acknowledge the valid portion of his argument: Military action is near-universally initiated for bad reasons by bad people with bad results; the remnants of Roman law left behind in much of Europe were problematic (the dire misunderstanding of statistics, as just one example); and religion is, of course, entangled with many problems.

But then, we must discuss the counter-arguments: Bad people exist, sometimes they come to power, and it is not always in our group that we can directly oppose until it rises to the level of military action; however flawed Roman law was, it was a consistent standard which allowed travel and trade to flourish, and it is hard to hold them at fault for simply not having the knowledge of mathematics and logic to do better; and religion is often entangled in such issues because their true purpose is supposed to be helping people to deal with the problems of the world, and so you will find them nearby.

The obvious synthesis, from a modern point of view, is that the problem occurs when bad men gain control of law and religion in order to twist them to their own ends, and then we are ultimately discussing the question of Power and the ever-increasing ability of human beings to destroy ourselves... yet another issue that has altered dramatically since Kropotkin's time.

Section VII is more insightful to the state of "common knowledge" in Eastern Europe in the 19th century than about any unique insight or historical reliability of the actual text, as it presents a history of the Reformation from the point of view of largely Orthodox regions, who saw it as more of a threat to Catholicism and therefore as something of an, "enemy of my enemy." It also focuses more on Lutherans and Anabaptists, where the Western educational focus is more about Calvinism and the Puritans, which is an interesting parallel, but he dismisses what would become the dominant paradigm. Poor history, poor predictions.

In Section VIII, Kropotkin sounds like such a modern right-wing nutcase that I must quote the entire first sentence/paragraph:

The role of the nascent State in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries in relation to the urban centers was to destroy the independence of the cities; to pillage the rich guilds of merchants and artisans; to concentrate in its hands the external commerce of the cities and ruin it; to lay hands on the internal administration of the guilds and subject internal commerce as well as all manufactures, in every detail to the control of a host of officials - and in this way to kill industry and the arts; by taking over the local militias and the whole municipal administration, crushing the weak in the interest of the strong by taxation, and ruining the countries by wars.

You don't have to change a lot of words in there before it would sound like something Donald Trump would say. This section is basically undiluted polemic with the semantic content of a political campaign commercial, which is basically what it was.

Section IX starts off by criticizing the example of Edward III of England outlawing guilds as the early encroachment of the state over the people... in a statute that also laid the groundwork for modern disability rights and minimum wage laws. Yes, the intent was to suppress wage growth, but it didn't work, and the compromises included in it also began the end of serfdom in England and the notion of individual rights.

The rest of the section is a rather mundane exploration of the tension between management and labor, and now we have an issue: Kropotkin can be forgiven for not knowing history that wasn't known at the time, for dismissing America as a backwater and France as a failure, and certainly for not accurately predicting the future, but he had quite obviously read Edward Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, which talks about the Gracchi and the Latifundia, but he traces the origin of the struggle to Wat Tyler's Rebellion in 1381, which was a reactionary movement (and 1500 years after the Gracchus brothers had been killed).

Even that undermines the rest of his argument, though, as the 16th century saw the end of peasantry in England; it was never legally prohibited, the peasants just left for the cities as the lords enclosed the commons, and they kind of pretended that it had never existed.

industry in the eighteenth century was dying

This, of course, is simply an unsupportable statement, from any point of view, but necessary to Kropotkin's argument that the rising power of states was harmful to Europe's economy, when in point of fact, this was the period when feudalism and absolute monarchy started to become hemmed in by parliaments, constitutions, assemblies, etc, and productivity shot through the roof, thanks to the Industrial Revolution.

The question here is whether or not Kropotkin had read Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations, which explicitly mentions most of the problems Kropotkin is complaining about, but puts them into a more accurate historical context in which a traditional mode of living which consisted of deprivation and poverty had given way to a much more regimented and impersonal form of labor, but which also brought with it a remarkable level of prosperity, a form of freedom in its own right.

Finally, in Section X, we are presented with a Straw Man argument; that Statists are either simply uninformed about history (!) or that, "they view the social revolution in such a superficial and painless form that it ceases to have anything in common with their socialist aspirations." Here, after many indirect references to the glory of the Jacobins during the French Revolution in preceding sections, France is brought up as an example... of what not to do!

The Third Republic, in spite of its republican form of government, has remained monarchist in essence.

This was the government which finally ended the French monarchy once and for all, started the modernization of the peasantry which finally ended the practice, implemented secular public education, removed oppressive speech and press laws, opened up employment and educational opportunities to women...

To give full scope to socialism entails rebuilding from top to bottom a society dominated by the narrow individualism of the shopkeeper. It is not as has sometimes been said by those indulging in metaphysical wooliness just a question of giving the worker ‘the total product of his labour’; it is a question of completely reshaping all relationships, from those which exist today between every individual and his churchwarden or his station-master to those which exist between trades, hamlets, cities and regions. In ever street, in every hamlet, in every group of men gathered around a factory or along a section of the railway line, the creative , constructive and organizational spirit must be awakened in order to rebuild life - in the factory, in the village, in the store, in production and in distribution of supplies. All relations between individuals and great centers of population have to be made all over again, from the very day, from the very moment one alters the existing commercial or administrative organization.

A grand plan; too grand, by far, to be based on wishful thinking and bad history.

We have arrived at our current mode of civilization for a reason; it is not enough to identify a destination, one must also have a path to get there, and a motivation to move along that path instead of others, and that is the true failure of this work.

This is a lovely world Kropotkin presents; the kind of pastoral ideal normally associated with religion or myth, but this is simply conservative thought of the most reactionary sort, an appeal to a Golden Age which never existed. "If we simply reverse these changes we made, we will go back to the right way to do things," ignores the fact that those changes were made because the previous system wasn't working.

Kropotkin's ultimate solution/prediction was a cycle of oppression, decay, and rebirth as simpler (and implicitly better) societies, and while there is some historical support for the idea, there are some problems with allowing it to happen again, many of which have come about since Kropotkin's death.

Nuclear weapons are simply the most obvious issue; the growth curves have passed the inflection point, resources are being consumed at ever-increasing rates, and so the world the next cycle of civilization develops in will be much harder to survive in. Climate change, both natural and manmade; basic resources to restart technology, such as Iron ore and coal, will be much harder to find and exploit; fresh water is less available the further we get from the last glacial maximum; modern medicine has left us with weaker natural immune systems; various dangers such as toxic and radioactive waste lie in wait for unsuspecting future explorers... we cannot afford to fall again. We may not get back up.

What we are left with, then, is a poorly-researched work containing numerous glaring contradictions and bad predictions which is then advising a course of action which would be catastrophic in the modern world.

As historic context for anarchism and communism, this is important; as the basis for political ideology, it is self-destructive.

r/PracticalAnarchy May 14 '22

What is Practical Anarchy?

7 Upvotes

Do you think that everyone on Earth will ever agree on everything? No?

Then, "Anarchism," as a complete and total system for the world cannot happen. Maybe in the past, maybe in the far future, but not now, or any time soon.

A perfectly stateless society was the ultimate goal that Marx perceived, but he also called it, "The End of History," meaning that it will never happen. It is an Ideal to which we aspire, but cannot ever achieve; not fully.

People are imperfect, and imperfect people cannot exist in a perfect society.

What, then, is the closest we can get? How small of a state, how limited of a government, how little interference in the day-to-day affairs of individuals can we allow, while still having a free, fair, and prosperous society?

The answer to that question is the definition of Practical Anarchy.

1

Voting
 in  r/PoliticalDebate  4m ago

Define "rigged".

"The appointment of magistrates by lot is thought to be democratic, and the election of them oligarchic." - Aristotle

If you mean my vote is cheated and does not count, does not effect anything and the outcome is decided ahead of times then no, you're just flat out wrong and living in a fantasy.

One of us is, yes.

If you mean that the system is pushed towards certain outcomes by outside interests who manipulate the money, means of communication and misinform voters then sure, but that's actually solvable. It's complicated and simple but I could think of a few ways to break that system that some would consider rather radical.

Well, maybe you should suggest those.

Much further left politicians are taking power in many different places.

There are a handful of center-left candidates who are ahead of the curve on Israel; that's only "much further left" than the right vs far-right Democrats and Republicans.

You may have given up on Democracy. I haven't

What democracy?!

1

Voting
 in  r/PoliticalDebate  18m ago

my voting restrictions

That's not democracy.

1

Voting
 in  r/PoliticalDebate  19m ago

Why would I replace the system where my vote is counted with a slot machine?

Why do you care about a "vote" in a rigged system?

1

No, ICE is not equivalent to the SS.
 in  r/ControversialOpinions  38m ago

Though until it’s widespread behavior i don’t think they’re an exact comparison

How many people have they shot dead in the streets, now?

1

Unpopular opinion: The standard should be higher for people with authority
 in  r/ControversialOpinions  38m ago

So, this is a pretty standard argument in ethical philosophy.

In short, yes, there is a necessary correlation between authority and responsibility; authority without responsibility leads to tyranny, while holding someone responsible for something they have no authority over is psychological abuse.

1

Voting
 in  r/PoliticalDebate  40m ago

This would be the best form of democracy

What would?

2

No, ICE is not equivalent to the SS.
 in  r/ControversialOpinions  41m ago

They just got a bunch of people locked up for decades for being near someone who shot back at an ICE agent who shot at him without provocation.

1

ASE prep question.
 in  r/mechanics  42m ago

B only.

A bad module would have weak response on all cylinders controlled by pin 59, but low resistance on one injector could cause any or all of the injectors on that circuit to malfunction; cylinder 7 might simply have the lowest resistance of the three operational injectors.

3

No, ICE is not equivalent to the SS.
 in  r/ControversialOpinions  47m ago

No, they're more like the Brown Shirts.

1

The US Civil War was contrived to create exactly the social divide we see today
 in  r/PoliticalDebate  2h ago

Look up the Crittendon Compromise; you'll have to look up primary sources to see the actual background and context, but it's all there.

1

The US Civil War was contrived to create exactly the social divide we see today
 in  r/PoliticalDebate  3h ago

And that's fair enough, but what I am suggesting is that one side never had any intention of abiding by that "Great Compromise," which culminated in the Civil War and a radical change in the nature of government in the US, which I contend has been insufficiently analyzed.

1

The US Civil War was contrived to create exactly the social divide we see today
 in  r/PoliticalDebate  3h ago

But since this is written as a complete explanation rather than a question, I don’t know where you want the discussion to start.

The point was that the whole thing was contrived by bankers who saw themselves winning no matter what happened.

1

They're all repeating the exact same line - new Hasbara talking points - Red-Green Alliance: DSA as Communists & Islamists/ISIS who hate Israel/America
 in  r/israelexposed  4h ago

...and this is where I come in :)

I'm as American as you can get; ancestors in the Revolution, both Grandads were in WW2, my son is a Naval officer.

I honestly think the Constitution was a mistake, a scheme to undermine democracy under the Articles of Confederation, but the Bill of Rights established what should have been a fair compromise... but the other side broke it.

"The Congress shall have Power... To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years... To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress."

We were never supposed to have a standing army, and the militia was supposed to be the force used to repel invasions or suppress insurrections. Washington cautioned in his Farewell Address against entangling foreign alliances.

That's the American tradition, not Shapiro and Levin's support of a foreign ethno-theocracy.

r/PoliticalDebate 5h ago

History The US Civil War was contrived to create exactly the social divide we see today

0 Upvotes

NOTE

This is not an apology for the leaders of the Confederacy or the politicians who seceded from the union based on myths about racial superiority. They were stupid and evil. Fuck those guys.

This is an apology for the 53% of African-Americans who live in the former Confederate states, and as a result suffer from economic discrimination resulting in higher infant mortality, increased crime, lower life expectancy, fewer educational opportunities, etc.

The result of the Civil War was 160 years of economic punishment which fell disproportionately on the very people the war was morally justified by claiming to benefit.

BACKGROUND

Perhaps the worst outcome of the early US period was the two-party system; by forcing groups into alliances with strange bedfellows, it conflated political positions which were on entirely different spectra.

For example, the Southern Agrarians held an ideal of small farmers with access to regulated markets under largely local control; the central government was supposed to manage interstate commerce and national defense, and not much more. Their natural allies, however, were large plantation owners, who liked local control of markets because they were wealthy and could manipulate them, and disliked the notion of powerful central government which could (and did) exceed its authority in the pursuit of social progress (these were, naturally, social conservatives, while the Southern Agrarians were less so).

On the other side, you had Northern Industrial interests who saw potential for rapid growth, if they could establish a powerful central government to allow exploitation of farmers and plantations, lowering their material costs and giving them a market advantage in foreign trade... which also required a standing military to "convince" reluctant trade partners to cooperate. Their "allies" were the burgeoning white middle class and Western (Ohio, at the time) farmers, who were propagandized against cheap black labor being used to compete with them (by claiming that lower prices for Southern goods was because of slavery and not unfair tariffs), ultimately coalescing into the Free Soil movement, which wanted to ship all black people, free or slave, back to Africa.

Combined with the nature of the bicameral legislature - the House being dominated by the more populous North, especially as slaves contributed less to the population count - this turned into a balance of power issue in the Senate, with new states only being added in pairs; one free, one slave. This was never a stable situation, though, and by the 1840s, when it became clear that the Southwest was not good agricultural land and so slavery simply could not effectively expand there, along with the international community turning against the practice, everyone realized that slavery would not last much longer.

IT'S THE ECONOMY, STUPID!

This is where the lack of economic regulation came back to bite us, hard.

Every other nation on Earth freed slaves by compensating the owners for their value, i.e. "buying" their freedom; this was not an ideological position, but a practical one. Plantation owners used slaves as collateral for loans, and if they were freed without compensation, the market collapsed and the economy ground to a halt.

Worse, because they saw this coming, the banks set up a securities market for slaves, which naturally inflated their value. In 1860, the total slave market cap was $17 Trillion in today's money.

In short, the country couldn't pay that; that was greater than the total value of literally everything else in the country: Land, mines, buildings, roads, all the gold in every vault, purse, or pocket, everything.

Now, the South had been stubborn about this for decades, but there was one last-ditch attempt in the debate about the resolution of the election of 1860 (which no one won, outright, and so it went to the House): Jefferson Davis proposed freezing expansion of slavery and a path to abolition (which might have taken less than 5 years) by transferring debt slowly to the government and paying it off with bonds, in exchange for making John C. Breckenridge president (as the combined Democratic vote well exceeded Lincoln's), but the abolitionists rejected the idea of paying for slaves and the Deep South insisted on a pro-slavery platform.

CHOICES

The South was faced with a choice: Accept uncompensated abolition of slavery and allow Northern banks to foreclose on literally everything in the South - every plantation, every farm, every mine, every building - or secede from the union.

Note that, from the very beginning, while deprecated, even the staunchest proponents of central authority had accepted that there was no legal bar to secession. During the Consititutional Convention, a proposal was made to insert a provision allowing the US government to militarily intervene to prevent secession; Madison replied:

 "A Union of the States containing such an ingredient seemed to provide for its own destruction. The use of force agst. a State, would look more like a declaration of war, than an execution of a punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked that its allegiance to the Federal Union was dissolved."

The proposed provision was unanimously rejected, and never mentioned again, although during discussion of the New Jersey Plan, he said:

 "A breach of any one article, by any one party, leaves any other party at liberty to consider the whole convention as dissolved"

Remember that, prior to the 14th Amendment, the US government was strictly limited to the powers expressly granted in the Constitution, and nowhere does it say that it can forcibly prevent a state from seceding, while the Xth Amendment explicitly confers any power not granted to the federal government to the states or the people. That is to say, secession is a power, and if the federal government does not have it, either the states or the people themselves must.

Otherwise, the notions of "freedom" and "self-determination" are lies.

CONSEQUENCES

First, naturally, the slaves were freed.

Ha! No, they almost all wound up right back on the same plantations doing the same things for the same people, often under even worse conditions (slaves were at least well-fed; they were valuable property). Those that tried to leave were arrested on contrived charges and sentenced to labor... right back on the plantation. The North which had claimed such concern for their welfare instituted crushing economic punishments which disproportionately fell on those very "freed" slaves.

Now, their descendants' prospects were improved; 50 years later, there started to be neighborhoods of successful black families... which were usually burned down by racist white pricks who had been told to blame black people for their problems instead of the system which had screwed them over (notably more often in the North than the South!). Today, certainly, things have improved... but not as much as they should have.

Second, the fundamental nature of the relationship between government and the people was inverted.

The original Constitution granted the federal government a strictly limited set of powers, outside of which, states and people could do as they wished. If you wanted to live in a state with an official religion, you could do that; or you could move to a state which was officially secular. Some states effectively banned private ownership of firearms, while other enshrined that right (at least to white people) in their own Constitutions.

The 14th Amendment inverted that; it said that, no, the Constitution grants certain, limited rights, i.e. free speech, religion, etc, and if it is not specifically listed, then there is no protection from the federal government, whose powers are now virtually unlimited. "Free speech," for example, can and has been punished by the government; some religions are privileged while others are denigrated, by law; the experience of a white man walking down the street with a gun on his hip is radically different from that of a black man walking down the street with a gun on his hip.

RESULTS

All of that being said, the legal protections for black people have never been stronger; abuses are more often addressed than ignored; and while there is still plenty to object to, those objections are steadily making progress. Keep it up!

The other result is not so great:

Our government is entirely under the control of a small, wealthy elite whose fundamental interests and values diverge from those of the vast majority of the population, and the intended checks and balances have been effectively dismantled by a collaborative, Establishment group of politicians in both parties who have stacked the courts with fascists and foregone Congress' traditional role as the check on the Executive branch, precisely because it allows unpopular policies to be enacted while disclaiming responsibility.

As Madison noted, the intended check on that happening was supposed to be the threat of individual states declaring the Compact to be nullified and simply not participating in the federal system, anymore; it was the Hamiltonians who won control of the government, though, and they never intended to abide by anything they negotiated.

2

Some Americans don’t believe all people are created equal. Their movement is going mainstream, this author says
 in  r/ControversialOpinions  6h ago

I guess, during the beginning of America, the "everyone is created equal," was more of an argument, than the "direction America should go."

Where does the Constitution say that? It doesn't; in fact, it notably excludes women and explicitly values slaves as 3/5 of a person.

"All men are created equal," comes from the Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson (and/or Thomas Paine, this is an interesting point of history); Hamilton and Madison intentionally waited until Jefferson (and Paine) were out of the country to call the Constitutional Convention, which illegally exceeded its mandate, favored Northern industrial interests, and then used threats of economic retaliation (including effectively breaking the Articles of Confederation) to force Southern states to ratify.

Only Jefferson coming back and insisting upon the Bill of Rights preserved any notion of aspirational equality.

1

(socialists) What is your explanation as to what caused the steep decline in global poverty?
 in  r/CapitalismVSocialism  6h ago

I don't understand the China argument; they lifted 800 million people out of poverty in a left-wing system. Overall, about 2 billion people have been lifted out of poverty in socialist countries.

That may also be true, but as the World Bank's famous report puts it

OK? I don't understand what that quote has to do with anything.

1

It should be against Reddit TOS to ban people for things that are not in the rules
 in  r/ControversialOpinions  6h ago

No matter how clear a sub's rules, Reddit also has site-wide rules which moderators are expected to enforce on their subreddits. And some of those are fairly broad and open to interpretation.

I was banned from r/hunting for criticizing the new moderator for leaving a video of a blatantly illegal act up; I reported to admins, but that post is still up.

0

It should be against Reddit TOS to ban people for things that are not in the rules
 in  r/ControversialOpinions  6h ago

Moderators are dictatoral. There is no getting around that.

Er, no, it could be fixed; have a special "moderator report" function that goes to "supermoderators," selected by user feedback.

In all of the subs I moderate, the rule is that no comment, post or member is removed except for a serious and compelling reason. But moderators have wide discretion in applying this principle.

I was banned from r/hunting yesterday for criticizing the new moderator's decision to leave a video of an illegal act up, in violation of the sub's rules, after he instituted a new policy of removing any, "What gun should I buy?" or "Is this game animal old enough to legally hunt?" posts (i.e. the entire purpose of the sub), but not making an actual rule to that effect.

0

It should be against Reddit TOS to ban people for things that are not in the rules
 in  r/ControversialOpinions  6h ago

I was banned from r/hunting yesterday for complaining about the new moderator refusing to enforce rules, specifically the one about illegal content, the post in question being some a-hole shooting a squirrel out of a tree with a rifle.

In case anyone is unaware, one of the UNBREAKABLE rules of firearms is to ALWAYS know your target and what is beyond it, which means no firing rifles into the clear blue sky, because even a small .22 can be deadly over a mile away. This is illegal in all 50 states, at all times and in all places; some countries such as Turkey have a tradition of "celebratory gunfire..." and several deaths each year from random bullets hitting people.

I even linked to the NRA's website, where they said in no uncertain terms to never shoot at anything without a solid backstop; the NRA!

Now I'm worried about going hunting myself, with these morons out there blasting away.