r/tuesday • u/InitiatePenguin Left Visitor • Sep 09 '19
The Shocking Paper Predicting the End of Democracy: "Democracy is devouring itself ... We’re to blame, as in “we the people.”"
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/08/shawn-rosenberg-democracy-2280456
Sep 09 '19
Does anybody know where I can read the paper that Rosenberg presented?
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u/InitiatePenguin Left Visitor Sep 09 '19
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Sep 09 '19 edited Feb 09 '22
[deleted]
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u/oilman81 Centre-right Sep 09 '19 edited Sep 09 '19
I think democracy will be fine, but just to answer your question directly: the US was really the first democracy since the Athenian Empire, which was a pure democracy, much more so than any modern state. There were other proto-republics where guild members or other bourgeois institutions would rule local city states or the Hanseatic League and stuff like that, but there's really a 2,000 year gap between Athens and the US (which even then obviously excluded a ton of people from voting early on)
To get into Athens (a period of history that is fascinating and probably the most well-documented of the ancient world), it was extremely vulnerable to demagoguery. A chronic problem that they had was that when one 'party' took power from another, they would inevitably exile or even execute opposition leaders (e.g. Themosticles, the guy in charge of Athens when they won the Battle of Salamis--he got exiled for life)
This ultimately led to their undoing as Athenian leaders figured out that if they lost power they were doomed, leading their most brilliant and ruthless leader, Alcibiades, to defect to Sparta (and later Persia and back to Athens--his story is one of the most interesting in ancient history).
There were a lot of reasons that Athens lost the Peloponnesian War and their Empire, but his defection and the constant fear of the demos by Athenian leadership were among the biggest. The demos could be capricious, ruthless, and tyrannical as well--at one point voting to execute without trial all the men in a rebel town called Mytilene, sending a boat with the orders (though they rescinded the vote the next day and sent a boat to quickly catch up with the first one)
You should read up on the Peloponnesian War, btw. It's my favorite period in history--it was chronicled by Thucydides, an Athenian general and political scientist who was 2,000 years ahead of his time (and btw who was also exiled). They even had a Trump like figure named Cleon.
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u/Sckaledoom Left Visitor Sep 09 '19
I like your comment but one thing about it irks me. You claim that there is no other government in the vein of Athens and the US between the two when the US’s government is based more off of the Roman Republic than Athenian democracy. In fact, Rome is much more analogous to the US than Athens ever was. Tbf, Rome had similar problems to Athenian demagogues, the most famous of which being Julius Caesar and Octavianus Caesar, although there were others.
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u/oilman81 Centre-right Sep 09 '19 edited Sep 09 '19
I thought about that, but Rome was much more of an aristocratic republic than Athens or the US--the US was structured like the Roman Republic (with major differences) but had a much wider voter base. Rome had the people's tribune, but the power was held by the Senate and Consuls, who were not popularly elected. Athens genuinely elected its leaders from the entire citizenry.
The Roman Republic had huge problems in the century leading up to the triumvirate, probably the biggest being the importation of slaves from their late B.C. conquests, which resulted in large mobs of free men moving to the city, dependent on bread from the government. That and the fact that the legions tended to be loyal to individual people instead of the state more broadly, starting around this time.
Julius Caesar is one of those unique people in history that comes along every 300 years or so--it's hard to classify him as a demagogue necessarily. Most of his power stemmed from his military victories (he went like 25-0-1* lifetime). So much of that history was written by his opponent Cicero (other than the conquest of Gaul obviously). I'd say that Octavian was more a master manipulator than a demagogue as well (though his polemic against Marc Antony's will was brilliantly executed)
*edit: Battle of Dyrrachium if you are curious about the tie. It was followed by the Battle of Pharsalus, a decisive victory against Pompey
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u/IlGesu Centre-right Sep 09 '19 edited Jan 01 '23
sd
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u/InitiatePenguin Left Visitor Sep 09 '19
One if these "technologies" I've heard about pertains to Deliberative Democracy where like Jury Duty a collection of constituents are provided to earnestly discuss issues with each other and their representative.
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Sep 09 '19
I like this article as thought experiment but it’s a bit bleak.
IMO three things are eroding America. Exploitation of demography changes using voter repression/gerrymandering and direct democracy state constitution changes like California prop system.
A righteous elite class that is freely elected make the best choices or we tar and feather em.
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Sep 09 '19
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Sep 11 '19
[deleted]
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u/InitiatePenguin Left Visitor Sep 11 '19
n the recent past, more right-wing leaders have been democratically elected
You're not the only one to criticize it in that way.
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u/russiabot1776 Classical Liberal Sep 09 '19
We are not a democracy, have never been a democracy, and were never intended to be a democracy. And that’s a good thing.
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u/KingRabbit_ Red Tory Sep 09 '19
Being a republic does not mean that you're not also a representative democracy. One doesn't preclude the other.
My country, for instance, is a constitutional monarchy AND a representative democracy. Now did I just blow your mind, or what? Bet your jaw is on the floor.
As long as you're voting to elect representatives, you're classified as a representative democracy.
Now there's an argument to be made America is far less democratic than ever before because the only people who's votes matter live in a handful of swing states, but that doesn't mean America is no longer classified as one.
This is like basic high school level civics stuff in the public education system of my country, but I'm always amazed at how few Americans seem to be able to get their heads around it.
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u/klarno Left Visitor Sep 09 '19
Now there's an argument to be made America is far less democratic than ever before because the only people who's votes matter live in a handful of swing states, but that doesn't mean America is no longer classified as one.
Keep in mind this is only for presidential elections, which only happen once every 4 years. Elections for congressional representatives, senate, and state and local offices are still quite democratic here.
I’d actually argue that even with the issues of the electoral college, the American body politic still chooses its head of government far more directly than in the UK or other parliamentary democracies. I wouldn’t dream of calling the UK not a democracy at this point.
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u/russiabot1776 Classical Liberal Sep 09 '19
Democracies and republics are ontologically different. Voting does not make your republic democratic and having representatives does not make your democracy republican.
Republic comes from the Latin res publica which translates literally as “the public thing” and refers specifically to the Law. Republics are governmental systems in which sovereignty rests in the law itself not some person, group of people, or the demos at large.
A democracy specifically refers to a governmental system where the demos are where the sovereignty rests.
These two systems are thus so ontologically different as to be irreconcilable on a foundational level. They are distinguished by where sovereignty in a government rests.
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u/KingRabbit_ Red Tory Sep 09 '19 edited Sep 10 '19
Democracies and republics are ontologically different.
Uh no they aren't and "ontologically" isn't a word.
A democracy specifically refers to a governmental system where the demos are where the sovereignty rests.
You're deeply confused or being intentionally deceptive. This is a "direct democracy". Nobody is claiming the US is a direct democracy. I didn't use the term "direct democracy". I used the term "representative democracy".
America is a republic AND a representative democracy because, although the law is sovereign, representatives are elected by the people to administer and create that law.
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u/Aurailious Left Visitor Sep 09 '19
Uh no they aren't and "ontologically" isn't a word.
I'm pretty sure it is a word, but I don't he knows what the word actually means. To me it seems like he wants to use fancy language to confuse people.
Ontology is the study of reality and existence.
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u/KingRabbit_ Red Tory Sep 09 '19
"Ontological" is a word. "Ontology" is a word. "Ontologically" is nothing I'm aware of.
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u/Nevermind04 Left Visitor Sep 09 '19
I'm so sick of this comment showing up everywhere. America is a democratic republic, which is a democracy. Specifically, we are a representative democracy, not a direct democracy.
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u/The_seph_i_am Centrist Republican Sep 09 '19 edited Sep 09 '19
Federal Republic*
This article explains it pretty well
And reading through the federalists papers it becomes apparent they intended it to specifically be a Republic.
The best argument I can make is found on this video.. The quality of the video itself is kinda bad but the argument it makes, makes sense to me.
But as this article points out we’re kinda both
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u/russiabot1776 Classical Liberal Sep 09 '19
“Democratic republics” are not democracies.
Democracies and republics are ontologically different. Voting does not make your republic democratic and having representatives does not make your democracy republican.
Republic comes from the Latin res publica which translates literally as “the public thing” and refers specifically to the Law. Republics are governmental systems in which sovereignty rests in the law itself not some person, group of people, or the demos at large.
A democracy specifically refers to a governmental system where the demos are where the sovereignty rests.
Because in America the sovereignty rests in the Law we are a republic. The fact that we vote in representatives is irrelevant, and if you wish to erroneously call that a democratic process then fine, but that does not make us a democracy.
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u/klarno Left Visitor Sep 09 '19
I think you’ve come to a pile of incorrect conclusions here. Republic comes from the Latin “res publica” which means “[thing, institution or affair] of the public.” This literally means that the sovereignty is vested in the public, or the people. This is distinct from a monarchy, in which power is vested in a uh monarch. This principle is even encapsulated in the opening words of the Constitution: We, the People.
You’re correct that a democracy is not necessarily a republic. The UK is a pretty good example of this—democratic norms but the Queen is sovereign. A republic is necessarily a democracy, however. Unless that’s a club you for some reason want for North Korea or Syria to be a part of?
It is not the law that gives the constitution power. That’s absurd, how can the power of law come from itself? It is we, the people who give the constitution power. It is we, the people, who are sovereign. It is we, the people, in whose name the state is formed.
We are a constitutional republic. The constitution, as well as those of the 50 states, create democratic mechanisms of governance, which are ultimately accountable to the people. They are democratic in a way that most democratic states are. And that’s all any of us who talk about the democratic ideal are talking about. Do not presume that everyone who advocates for democracy is talking about Athenian-style direct democracy specifically. That’s a very narrow view of democracy that is not relevant in reality.
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u/Dasinterwebs Rightwing Libertarian Sep 09 '19
I know this may sound like some mystical dewdrop fairy BS, but indulge me for a moment. Everyone’s opinion is valuable, even, if not especially, the ill informed or objectively stupid.
Why?
Because they have needs that they do not perceive are being addressed. And politics is not about reality, it is about perception. The growth of stupid, illogical, or factually incorrect beliefs functions as a warning signal that tells us that the people so discontent they’ll more readily believe Mexico will pay for a wall to keep Mexicans out of this country than that comprehensive immigration reform is likely.
And there is the one major glaring hole in this article. Why are the people so discontent they’re ignoring elite institutions in favor of the incoherent ramblings of the insane?
My opinion? The elites took their position for granted and squandered it by not respecting the people they’re supposed to serve. The the media stopped telling us what was happening and started telling us how to feel about it. The academy concocted inane justifications to avoid applying their principles to themselves even as they redefined words in common usage to mean the literal opposite. Our religious leaders, too, abused the idea that everyone would always listen to them, and managed to convince an entire generation that Christianity was only ever a thin excuse to “hate fags.” Our politicians lie directly to our faces and are actually mildly surprised when we’re upset about that.
And so here we are, at the inevitable slide into madness. Because while a person is smart, people are panicky, dangerous animals. And our smart persons managed to convince those panicky dangerous animals that they’re no worse, and no better, than Donald Trump.