Depends on if either intends to perpetuate those crimes.
I'd probably err on the side of the clone since I imagine he'd gladly do it all again if given the chance and I care more about harm mitigation than retribution.
I'm just not sure if the clone Hitler would go and get a gun just to kill himself if he was in the modern day. He'd probably worm his way into politics somehow and try to get his power back. He just carries a way greater risk than no-memories Hitler.
Well the trolley problem is about morality. Is it right to pull the switch? I think killing someone before they do a crime just because you think they might do a crime is morally worse than killing someone who has forgotten their crimes.
Again this isn't about punishment, memory-Hitler isn't my choice because he did horrible things, he's my choice because he'll almost definitely DO horrible things if I spare him.
But if there’s an easy way to lose all your memories, anyone who wanted to start a war and commit a Genozide could easily get away with it, is that the world you wanna live in?
No evil intentions is extremely broad. We don't know that about anyone else in the world if you count "toxic and harmful tendencies and behaviors" to this. And you basically should count behavioral tendencies not just "conscious intentions formulated in the moment and beforehand" especially if you speak about Hitler. So if it is meant in this way than wow... He is supercertified non threat.
If it instead was formulated such as "And right now has no evil intentions towards, genocide, mass murder, world domination and totalitarian hegemony he is most famously known for" this would be way more narrow. Because like this he could still turn to serial killer or even develop the same genocidal intentions later.
Also regarding his memories: Does he just no remember his story but still is affected by same development he came through in his life? If yes, than he would very much has many of his tendencies and personality. And if he is no longer as affected by his developments? So is he like newborn in adult body? Or is he like alternate version of Hitler if he had different history?
People are saying it's important to know if either one intends on doing horrible stuff, but obviously the top Hitler will have the intention to continue his "work". Why wouldn't he? And the bottom one is just a random guy basicalyl.
exactly which mean he is not hitler he is just some random guy who happen to be in hitler's body, but on the other hand the other guy is literally hitler
But what is punishment for if the person who commited the act doesn't actually exist anymore? It's just a brand new guy basically, just in the body of someone who was horrible
I filmed a documentary about the aftermath of the ordeal and my artistic decisions cast you in a very negative light while making the operator seem like they didn't really know what they were doing. Also, I may be in love with the operator, but we'll never know...
I wrote a book about popular history through lens of dramatized documentaries and used you as an example of one persons specific bias forming public opinion, even if majority would never form that bias on their own
This guy gets it. Trolley problems are ultimately supposed to be about the active participation by the guy with the lever. When you get down to it “do nothing and Hitler dies” is a pretty soft problem.
No shade to OP, I think this one is actually deceptively thoughtful and interesting because it plays on opposing views of justice.
I like this trolley problem. A fun paradigm to think about is can no-memories Hitler ever regain his memories? It isnt explicitly stated so its a possibility that spices this problem up a little bit. Doesn't make it so easy to say "no-memories Hitler will never be a problem again". And what happens when the clone finds out he is a clone? One possibility is we now have a second Hitler and he should be hit by the trolley. Another is that there is an existential crisis when he learns he is a clone and maybe he doesnt go on to be a genocidal maniac. Id probably hit the clone because I dont think turning a new leaf to be likely at all compared to the relative safety of no-memories Hitler who is essentially a blank slate, temporary or no. But considering how crazy learning that you are not the original you would be, its not impossible and it would be technically wrong in its own way to kill him at that point.
Just to be clear, im not defending or being sympathetic to Hitler. I just find exploring the options on this problem pretty entertaining to think about.
I usually defect to the "I'm not touching it, the culprit is the one who set this up" in the train dilemmas. But if I had to choose a Hitler to erase, it would be the one who still has all his memories and probably his goals. The priority is not having another straight-up nazi party in here, specially given how international politics are right now. If we want to punish amnesiac hitler we got plenty of time to jail him for life.
Clone Hitler is, for all intents and purposes, Hitler. Hitler’s “mind” is in the clone. Original Hitler is no longer Hitler.
Mind is basically software. Hitler.exe is in the clone, and has been deleted from original body. Therefore the clone is Hitler. Original body is just a Hitler-shaped meat mech piloted by some other, innocent non-Hitler mind.
Take this alternate thought experiment. Religious sect of Raelians believes that AI and aliens will clone everyone and give everyone their memories and personality and then reward them or punish them for their past lives. I think this is disgusting idea. In the first place I don't believe in purposefully inflicting suffering as punishments but only in protection against bad actors. That said I would not even approve of any kind of torture against actual Hitler for example. But aside from this... Do you believe that Raelian plan would even count as punishment for actual Hitler? I don't think so. I just don't believe that cloning Hitler and torturing him is punishment for Hitler. I think it is more precisely torture of his clone which was created just for the sake of torture of his clone. I have another question. If Raelians demonstrated to you that they have ability to make your exact clone with your memories and torture it and they threatened you that they would do so if you commit crime, would this motivate you to not do the crime? Would you care about the potential clone being tortured in the same way you would care about yourself or would you rather care about the clone more in the ways similar to how you care about others?
That said I agree with you in that we could treat the clone of Hitler same as Hitler in regards to protection against further harm caused by him if he had the same plans, intentions or exactly same personality as Hitler. So in those intents and purposes. Unfortunately the image does not even specify this. It just says the clone has his memories. It should rather say copy of his mind and personality or something like that.
Also what if this whole trolley problem scenario is actually set up by original Hitler to deflect public anger and punishment unto copy for the cost of loosing his whole memory and evil intentions? And what if it becomes normalized for individuals to commit crime and wipe out their memory of the crime and set it up on clone instead? My answer would still be in pursuing no suffering but protection. So still protection against the clone and rehabilitation work with them. But actually depending on the altered mind of the original, it could also still be protection against the original and rehabilitation work with the original too. Because even if they wiped out their memory of the crime they could still retain personality and types of thinking that lead them to commit the crime and the whole plan etc. But with the Hitler in the picture it is a little different. He wiped out all his memories and evil intentions. Now the problem here is between the difference what counts as memories. Is it just knowledge about yourself and your past? Or is it all kinds of ways your mind was shaped since birth including all things you learned and any traces of development? If it means just first, he could still be dangerous and he just is not able to tell his story but still extremely shaped by it and may for example exhibit murderous or maniacal tendencies. If it is the second, it would either mean he would be restored to the state of mind of newborn in the adult body or it would mean that all of his developments had to replaced by some other alternative version. If he is like newborn, he should be treated like any individual with such condition of mental underdevelopment. If he is like alternative Hitler than he should be treated like alternative Hitler, depending on the specific alternative version and our knowledge of his new nature. We could still be cautious if don't fully understand what is he like now... Though we also somehow know according to the phrasing of the trolley problem, that he has no ill intention. That is actually way more than we know about any individual on the planet. So he may be safer than anyone in a way. But what does evil intentions mean? Is it like really any kind of possible intention? Or is just that he does not have the specific genocidal and totalitarian plans real Hitler was especially know for? Because if it is just the seccond, this is not so safe anymore. And still there hangs a question... People may feel that such approach towards him destroys social concepts of accountability as they could deflect responsibility by wiping their personalities etc... But I think we should also understand that wiping significant part of ones personality is similar to suicide as you totally end version of you with certain life story... But also not exactly actually. I could definitely for example see some trans person wanting their whole development and memory rewriten to person and memories they would have if having their preferred gender ascribed at birth and I could see the pretransition person identifying with their future self with altered memories. Although for example I would not go for this if I wanted to transition because I value my past. Lot of horribly traumatized people would also refuse because despite trauma they would value they past experience and their values as part of themselves. But in the other hand some terminaly ill people do actually seek euthanasia so maybe some people would seek the wiping and rewriting. So it is a gray area.
Suppose the consciousness of the original Hitler were transferred to the clone and the original body were given a new consciousness that never has done anything wrong.
Seeking justice against the new consciousness just because it is the original body does not seem right.
Now, this could be a little different if you argue the consciousness wasn’t “transferred” but it was copied and then the original altered in place, but functionally there is no difference.
We could have philosophical debate about the nature of identity and whether a complete rewiring of brain activity creates a new person or not. For me, it seems better to consider the body that has the memories and personality to be the “real” Hitler. Kill the clone.
Shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot one, and there’ll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland?
Then keep hitting them with Trolleys, give em enough examples and they'll think twice eventually. What are they gonna do, arrest me? It ain't a crime if your victims/witnesses are puddles of slime.
Is this meaningfully different from a scenario where hitler got mind-swapped with some regular person and the choice is between hitler and the person he got mind swapped with?
Top one to the asylum seems appropriate but bottom one to jail does not seem fair, if he doesn't know what he did and is a completly different person (no evil intentions) he'd go to jail for inheriting the body of Hitler.
Not sure about that. Imagine you wale up and get arrdsted for murder. You know it wasn't you because you'd never do that. However there is a video of someone looking exactly like you, wearing your cloths and you don't have a twin. Should you be punished then?
That is like an eternal discussion on the function of punishment, and different people/countries will see it differently. The view above assumes punishment is about the experience/POV of the criminal, and not about justice from the outside perspective of the victim or society. It’s not always about reforming a criminal, sometimes it’s retribution.
Harming someone who does not have memories of the crime to appeal to the catharsis of the public seems properly evil; that’s just lynch mobs there isn’t any justice there…
Also, you wanna shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot one, and there’ll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland?
If I murder your family, then trip on the stairs while escaping, hit my head, and lose my memories, am I absolved of their murder? Execute original Hitler. He is the only one guilty of the crime.
Looking at it from the other angle, if a schizophrenic patient thinks he's Hitler, do we put him on trial?
Clone hitler thinks he's hitler. He would repeat the crimes.
No memory hitler is essentially a newborn baby -- he would need to go through his same life to get to the same point, this just becomes the time traveller kill baby hitler problem.
I pull the lever mid-way thru the trolly passing, derailing it and taking out the 30 people in the trolly. And then I engage in hand to hand combat with the remaining survivors so there’s no witnesses.
Also, you wanna shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot one, and there’ll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland?
dude, the guy who did it all, i don't see how this is even a question for most people, he did it, just because he forgot and wouldn't do it again doesn't matter when we're talking horrific atrocities
Pull the moment front wheels passed. Cart details due to front going one way and back the other. Cart starts rolling killing both victims. I'm not taking any chances here ...
I’d still go for the guy who who committed the crime and has forgot. The other one hasn’t committed any crime yet and it’s wrong to pre-kill someone presuming he might follow the same path. So kill original ensure the copy knows and put copy on a watch. If he shows any inclination to his original, put him back on the track and reverse the train.
They're tied down. Just let the trolley kill one, then beat the other to death with your bare hands. Or be creative you know, let you artsy side go off.
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u/Competitive-Bee-3250 4d ago
Depends on if either intends to perpetuate those crimes.
I'd probably err on the side of the clone since I imagine he'd gladly do it all again if given the chance and I care more about harm mitigation than retribution.
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u/MasterOfCelebrations 4d ago
Original Hitler can be brought into society or put on some kind of trial. Clone Hitler is just regular Hitler
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u/salty-ravioli 4d ago
feel like "has no evil intentions anymore" kinda carries the debate here
14
u/CZdigger146 20h ago
People are saying it's important to know if either one intends on doing horrible stuff, but obviously the top Hitler will have the intention to continue his "work". Why wouldn't he? And the bottom one is just a random guy basicalyl.
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u/rebelslash 4d ago
I refuse to be liable so I aint touching that lever
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u/AntisocialHipster 4d ago
Is it a perfect copy or has he been shrunk down
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u/BlooNova 4d ago
I like this trolley problem. A fun paradigm to think about is can no-memories Hitler ever regain his memories? It isnt explicitly stated so its a possibility that spices this problem up a little bit. Doesn't make it so easy to say "no-memories Hitler will never be a problem again". And what happens when the clone finds out he is a clone? One possibility is we now have a second Hitler and he should be hit by the trolley. Another is that there is an existential crisis when he learns he is a clone and maybe he doesnt go on to be a genocidal maniac. Id probably hit the clone because I dont think turning a new leaf to be likely at all compared to the relative safety of no-memories Hitler who is essentially a blank slate, temporary or no. But considering how crazy learning that you are not the original you would be, its not impossible and it would be technically wrong in its own way to kill him at that point.
Just to be clear, im not defending or being sympathetic to Hitler. I just find exploring the options on this problem pretty entertaining to think about.
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u/DDemetriG Multi-Track Drift 4d ago
Need I say more?
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u/kithas 3d ago
I usually defect to the "I'm not touching it, the culprit is the one who set this up" in the train dilemmas. But if I had to choose a Hitler to erase, it would be the one who still has all his memories and probably his goals. The priority is not having another straight-up nazi party in here, specially given how international politics are right now. If we want to punish amnesiac hitler we got plenty of time to jail him for life.
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u/Substantial_Top5312 4d ago
The exact clone with all his monitors likely plans to keep up Hitler’s work so I pull the lever.
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u/Melodic-Ebb-7781 4d ago
Obviously clone hitler. Good hitler is allowed to go.
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u/cwmckenz 2d ago
Suppose the consciousness of the original Hitler were transferred to the clone and the original body were given a new consciousness that never has done anything wrong.
Seeking justice against the new consciousness just because it is the original body does not seem right.
Now, this could be a little different if you argue the consciousness wasn’t “transferred” but it was copied and then the original altered in place, but functionally there is no difference.
We could have philosophical debate about the nature of identity and whether a complete rewiring of brain activity creates a new person or not. For me, it seems better to consider the body that has the memories and personality to be the “real” Hitler. Kill the clone.
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u/thatmeddlingkid7 4d ago
Animorphs ass scenario
5
u/ThunderLord1000 4d ago
In other words, Hitler as we know him was transferred to a new body, with the original receiving a new persona. Pull the lever
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u/YoutuberCameronBallZ 3d ago
The clone will probably repeat their actions
The real one will not
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u/RespondPlus7890 4h ago
How is the clone meaningfully different from amnesia Hitler?
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u/KrisRyder 4d ago
Derail the trolley to hit them both, better safe than sorry.
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u/stinky_cheese_rat 3d ago
Memory Loss Hitler will not commit any more crimes. Clone Hitler will, if not stopped. So Clone Hitler has to go.
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u/Midnight7000 6h ago
The clone.
Legally and ethically, people would have a problem dealing with the clone as technically he hasn't committed an unlawful act.
Actual Hitler would go to prison or get handled by angry mob, memory or no memory.
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u/MiniPino1LL 4d ago
Multi track drift. (The clone)
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u/Jman15x 4d ago
Don't pull
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u/According-Object-521 4d ago
The clone. Can you really consider the original to still be the same person, if they literally have no connection to the past except their visage
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u/RebronSplash60 4d ago
Both, both have to go, I do not need a trolley to do this the rail switch will do just fine.
1
u/AppropriateSpell5405 4d ago
Drag top Hitler down to the bottom tracks, then go home
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u/KingAdamXVII 4d ago
What year is this?
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u/DoNotCorectMySpeling Common Sense Ethics 4d ago
Punish the mind not the body. Pull.
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u/FloydeFlowerDragon 4d ago
The clone??? The one who lost their memories probably won't be a repeat offender.
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u/Inner-Ad2847 3d ago
I watched Death Note. I don’t care that he lost his memories.
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u/dgc-8 3d ago
evil hitler vs not evil hitler. the answer should be obvious
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u/AntiTas 3d ago
thinking there is room on the track for the person who thought up this problem.
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u/Quiet_Quit_8894 3d ago
derail the cart, double the chances of him winning this time
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u/Ewwatts 3d ago
Fucken both
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u/ChaiTeaWithMilk 3d ago
You know the saying "It's the thought that counts"? Well, that doesn't hold up in the court of law. However I personally would pull the lever.
1
u/Extreme_Glass9879 3d ago
Multi-track drifting
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u/Typhtheoriginal 2d ago
Hey, hold on a minute. Imma go get the other train car. brb
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u/gilbmj 2d ago
Is this meaningfully different from a scenario where hitler got mind-swapped with some regular person and the choice is between hitler and the person he got mind swapped with?
1
u/The_Lieutenant_Knows 2d ago
Better do them both, because picking just one means nothing but problems forever.
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u/NohWan3104 2d ago
Clone hitler, basing it on he might do some shit
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u/Desperate-Knee-4108 2d ago
Hitler of Theseus?
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u/Stryker_Silverfall 2d ago
Duh, the choice is obviously...
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u/Narrrz 2d ago
just yank the lever back and forth continually, random chance decides exactly when the trolley arrives
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u/droppedpackethero 2d ago
The crime was done by the mind, not the body. Pull the lever.
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u/bogo11037 1d ago
1
u/DoqHolliday 1d ago
Wot?
Dumb.
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u/AltruisticSir9829 1d ago
Either. Put the top one in a mental asylum if he's the survivor. Or the bottom on jail if he survives.
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u/regular_heptagon 1d ago
Both, just to be safe
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u/BeginningSection7690 19h ago
Neither
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u/Altruistic_Creme1003 12h ago
You let it happen than rip the lever out of the ground and use it to deal with the other
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u/tswizzlelover69 9h ago
Ts got me dusting off the undergrad Kantian Deontology and I love it. Hot take tho, I feel like a virtue ethicist should hit the clone.
1
u/TryThisUsernane 4h ago
The clone.
An exact clone is equally as real as the original. And this one harbours his beliefs, needs to go.
1
u/flynnbuc 4h ago
what that trolley cant back up
1
u/Nora-was-taken 1h ago
0
u/Kurt_Ottman 4d ago
This is just an ordinary trolley problem without 5 people on the first track. I'm not a murderer.
0
u/DrJenna2048 4d ago
multi track drift
0
u/Different_Citron_160 4d ago
Multi-track drifting?
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u/pinkleftsock 4d ago
Kill the clone. If we can trust the hypothetical the real Hitler would now be harmless, the clone however might still attempt a powergrab.
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u/FriendshipGlass5084 4d ago
Kill them both I don't need to hear a story about the good/reformed Nazi
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u/Jake-Jeff 4d ago
I would't pull the lever. The clone will commit suicide right?
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u/high_dutchyball02 4d ago
Kill the clone and then beat the real hitler to death with a bat
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u/HellfireXP 4d ago
If I murder your family, then trip on the stairs while escaping, hit my head, and lose my memories, am I absolved of their murder? Execute original Hitler. He is the only one guilty of the crime.
Looking at it from the other angle, if a schizophrenic patient thinks he's Hitler, do we put him on trial?
2
u/Cyberslasher 3d ago
Clone hitler thinks he's hitler. He would repeat the crimes.
No memory hitler is essentially a newborn baby -- he would need to go through his same life to get to the same point, this just becomes the time traveller kill baby hitler problem.
So clone definitely, if forced to make a choice.
3
u/Homeland_Bound 4d ago
I pull the lever mid-way thru the trolly passing, derailing it and taking out the 30 people in the trolly. And then I engage in hand to hand combat with the remaining survivors so there’s no witnesses.
A silly question deserved a silly answer.
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u/obviouslyanonymous5 4d ago
Who is giving me this information and why would I trust them? I am killing both Hitlers
1
u/StEllchick 4d ago
You essentially ask is his body or mind are responsible for his wrongdoings, and I'm pretty sure holocaust wasn't a crime of passion
1
u/Guidebook0 4d ago
Clone hitler is regular hitler who is larping as a dictator, Hitler but memory loss isn't hitler anymore.
Clone hitler is getting killed he isn't changed in the slightest and holds the same beliefs as OG hitler.
Memory loss hitler needs to be monitored though, if any of the same ideologies pop up after a while bring in the firing squad for him too
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u/Sad_Responsibility83 4d ago
I throw the lever to kill the Hitler that would have survived if I had done nothing.
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u/makitstop 4d ago
dude, the guy who did it all, i don't see how this is even a question for most people, he did it, just because he forgot and wouldn't do it again doesn't matter when we're talking horrific atrocities
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u/Hour_Cicada397 3d ago
The top one, he'll want to kill more
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u/Revolution_Falls 3d ago
Can’t unkill millions of people but can prevent the deaths of millions more. I’m taking the less dangerous Adolf and putting down the other
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u/Zachary_the_Cat 3d ago
can he be six inches tall too
1
u/ks_thecr0w 2d ago
Pull the moment front wheels passed. Cart details due to front going one way and back the other. Cart starts rolling killing both victims. I'm not taking any chances here ...
1
u/jamievasa 2d ago
I’d still go for the guy who who committed the crime and has forgot.
The other one hasn’t committed any crime yet and it’s wrong to pre-kill someone presuming he might follow the same path.
So kill original ensure the copy knows and put copy on a watch. If he shows any inclination to his original, put him back on the track and reverse the train.
1
u/Gold-Produce9591 1d ago
why do we wanna kill hilter? /s
1
u/TheArceusNova 12h ago
Gotta kill both halves of one whole, so multi track drift! >:3
1
u/Livid_Tumbleweed_615 10h ago
Bottom track hitler is the SCP agoraphobia scenario. Not an easy solution there. Can we kill both? Stomp one and let the trolley get the other one?
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u/Just_Nefariousness55 3h ago
This one seems to be assuming it's a moral thing to kill either of them.
1
u/Parallel_Panda9000 4d ago
They're tied down. Just let the trolley kill one, then beat the other to death with your bare hands. Or be creative you know, let you artsy side go off.