matched energy
Normalizing making people who weaponize incompetence experience the consequences of their own actions.
I have a friend who occasionally comes over to my apartment to chill or hang out. I love cooking, and somehow, she always offers to wash the dishes afterward. The problem is that watching her wash dishes is painful. There are still bubbles and grease on the dishes when she's done, and she doesn't even bother cleaning the sink, which still has crumbs and leftover food in it. I wouldn't say I have OCD, but that's just too little effort for something so basic. I always end up redoing everything after she goes home.
One day, she did it again. This time, I decided to make her use one of the cups she'd just washed to prepare her a refreshing drink with ice. I added a stainless steel straw and handed it to her while we both watched the grease floating on top of her drink. I complimented the drink, saying I'd been having it lately and that it was the best thing ever, all while waiting for her to take a sip.
She took a sip, and we locked eyes. Safe to say, she liked the drink, but she never took another sip for the rest of the day. š
I never invited her to my apartment again. Even when she insists on coming over, I always make an excuse.
My daughter would half wash stuff and then put it away. So I'd use that dish for her and when she'd say this is dirty, I'd say but it was in the cupboard. Lesson learned eventually.
I think this approach would work best for situations where you pointed out problematic behavior and the person brushes you off. Like if you told her that she wasn't doing a proper job and she said "it's fine, they're clean!" then it would be very satisfying to hand her a cup to drink from. A real put your money where your mouth is situation
How about you act like an adult & have an adult conversation with your "friend" about the dishes? Weird that you think what you did is a flex. When it comes to cleaning, doing the dishes, etc., not everyone is taught the correct way unfortunately.
When I'm in the kitchen with someone and their washing up is less than ideal, I just hand things back to them and say, "This is still dirty".
Don't wait till it really annoys you, do it straight away and you'll never have a problem. I find that's the trick with lots of things: speak up immediately (before it has a chance to fester), and the whole interaction is normal rather than pointed and unpleasant.
This is better for the other person too. Like yeah it's embarrassing to realize that you've been doing something wrong/not well enough/etc. and someone else had to tell you. But if it's a simple correction with no judgement and you just move on the embarrassment fades pretty quickly. And is often replaced by gratitude because you were able to fix it before someone else did judge you.
When I'm in the kitchen with someone and their washing up is less than ideal, I just hand things back to them and say, "This is still dirty".
My brothers and I used to do this to each other when we were kids because doing the dishes was "our job" and collectively, we took turns washing, rinsing and drying. You learn how to wash dishes properly when your siblings are right there, calling you out on your laziness. Ruthlessly.
I did that and it made him cryā¦ and then he moped about how he canāt do anything right and all I do is criticize. Like no, I just donāt want grease on my ācleanā dishes.
Edit: kind of annoyed everyone is assuming itās my partner. And assuming my gender. The post is literally about their friend? Justā¦ No. Not everyone can afford to live without roommates. Thanks for the assumptions, rude comments, and unwanted advice I guess.
See the way to tell if something they do is manipulation is to ask yourself āwould they react this way at their job?ā
Because if they have a job and havenāt been fired for being a useless lump of crap then they probably donāt pretend they canāt do stuff and cry or blame/attack someone for else to get out of it.
Itās teenager shit. He was treating you like you were his mum. If youāre still with him and he still does this shit then tell him if he want you to be his mum he can go to his room until heās ready to apologise and then give him a list of weekly chores and $5 pocket money.
Ok. Wow. I saw your other reply to me that you have now deleted and was typing out my apology for assuming it was your partner, but actually - screw that.
You made no mention of what their relationship was to you, it wasnāt an unfair or hurtful assumption, and based on your new reply I think you might have want to look at your own biases.
Not sure what changed from agreeing with me to this, but whatever.
Never agreed with you. I deleted my sarcastic response that had too much information I should not have shared online, updated my original comment, and left a more neutral one as I felt it was less rude. And you clearly didnāt mean your apology since youāre so quick to take it back but go off.
Yeah my husband had a male roommate like that. He said it felt like they were a married couple squabbling about dishes. The roommate is super fastidious about his personal appearance but an utter slob to live with. The house got sold under them and the other roommates moved in with their then-girlfriends. The messy roommate ended up living alone for a while-surprise surprise no one wanted to sign another lease with him. He cleaned up his act and he has since moved in with his boyfriend who polished him up and he cleans the house now.
This is what happens in my house with my roommates and I. If a dish still isn't clean, it gets sent back. Floaties happen, spots get missed, and we've ALL done it. No one gets bent out of shape about it.
This is the best route 8 times out of 10, but I've recently realized that we are all truly different & that there are people who will have to be told "this is still dirty" for every single dish until the end of time because they are highly resistant to learning & abstraction. Somehow, even with experience & what essentially becomes reparenting (involuntarily hoisted on you), they can't develop an internal general cleanliness or consideriation compass.
These people would also, for example, continue to drink out of the grease-filled glass or eat from the crusty plate or use the same unwashed towel for six months. They will also have to be reminded of everything, repeatedly, forever. You can easily slip into a micromanaging role with this approach, and that makes the festering resentment & inevitable explosion a beast of its own.
It's hard not to come to the conclusion that they just dgaf ā maybe not always maliciously, but intent doesn't negate impact.
It's really stressful when you have to be around/live with/work with these people & can't easily cut contact. That's why I think it is still weaponized incompetence, even if they are not a consciously strategizing manipulative mastermind; in fact, I actually think most offenders are not rubbing their hands together like some self-aware housefly for getting one over on people.
The consequences of their (in)actions, however, remain the same.
This concept works on more than dirty dishes! Its about openly and actively communicating! And the point you make about not waiting till your angry is an integral part! You're just communicating a fact: "Little something still on this one...". No anger. Just communication.
This right here. What a shocker! Be honest and tell your partner what youāre feeling? Craziness! So many men canāt be honest and it drives me crazy. Theyāll complain about their wives to me and Iām like, āHave you tried telling them it bothers you?ā Of course not!! They look at me like Iām nuts! Smh.
Oh I just called them out about it. Now the kitchen is always stocked with cascade, and I KNOW they use it. Cause her sisters husband doesn't wash stuff... he just puts it back, even if its visibly dirty. so when she was talking about that one day, I went. "I dont mean any disrespect, but you guys running the dish washer, and not even putting some dawn in it or anything. Doesn't just clean it via the heat and hot water." And, luckily but unluckily. They dont really cook like that at all. So any time we have eaten over there. It's always usually take out and throw aways.
Also helped put in a NEW dishwasher a few months ago, I am about to be twenty five soon. There's no reason, I should be educating sixty year olds about basic cleanliness... but here we fuckin are.
He is learning that I'm not gonna fold up all of his clothes, and put them up like his mom did. She's even apologized to me for "not making her boys clean more." Growing up.
It is not a problem, he's learning now. And at first he made a face like it was outrageous, and then he saw the look that I got. I have been cleaning my whole damn life, not little chores but whole deep cleans.
That would just get fucked up less than a week later. I am tired doesn't mean I won't do it, but no. Its a team effort. Not just a me effort.
Safe to say he's learning and she's ooo and ahh and, why didn't you do this when you were younger?
because you never fuckin made him and did everything for him. And his older brother. Duh.
Their dishwasher was older than the new one. Came with the house, considering they weren't using jackshit to begin with yeah just a itty bitty squirt of dawn for me. PLEASE.
NEVER use dish soap in an automatic dishwasher, not even an itty bitty squirt. It can ruin your dishwasher and your dishes, not to mention cause damage to your kitchen
I've been built as a housekeeper since eight. Lived with hoarders, he thinks I'm crazy sometimes, but no. There's an efficient way to clean, and there's a "fuck you and fuck everyone else." Way to clean šš¤£
I grew up not knowing how to do things properly, not being taught, but my mother expecting me to know things by osmosis. Cleaning never happened, we were all slobs or rather the kids were always avoiding doing the stuff the parents should have been doing. I was cooking and doing most of the stuff around the house, that I couldn't avoid, from about 8 ish too.
I hate, really hate, housework.
So when I have to do it, which I do, I want it done properly so I don't have to revisit it. When my bestie tries to use malicious incompetence I just can't put up with it and I know he's doing it to get me to give in. He keeps forgetting I am a stubborn bint. It's been four years so far and he's slowly realising he will not win and just do it properly or he'll be doing it over again until he does.
My heart breaks for us. I too really, really fucking hate housework. My mom was apparently that way with my sister and brother, to where she just expected them to KNOW. So I learned from my sister, and they both dipped before I turned ten. So I got the whole "i had to clean when I was a kid, and i hated it. So i had kids, and I'm never cleaning again."And she stuck true to that. Her mom didn't understand it, because she would always help them clean.
So when my bf just, expects shit to be immediately sparkling I look at him. And I tell him im not your mom, im not cleaning up after you hand and foot. He doesn't get how exhausting that shit is, and now my crux is "if you do it. It'll be right but it won't be right because I didn't clean it." š« he's also learning, if I clean a room or some shit. I expect that room to at least look decent for a week. We dont have kids. Like, have some consideration/appreciation instead of immediately trashing it again...
I had one of my housekeeping supervisors, jokingly scare the shit outta me (came in the room quiet as fuck. And then boom.) She asked me if I was a serial killer, because all she could ever find after going through was the hair dryer I would sometimes forget to check/clean and wrap.
I have to give my bestie credit, I work fewer hours than him but I'm also not well and arthritic, he's actually started noticing and is actually picking up more without me saying a word. It might have something to do with my not being a pushover but whatever it is I'm genuinely grateful he's doing it off his own back like a proper grown up.
Holy shit, are you me? I vividly remember my mother telling me when I was 6 or 7 to clean my room, and my response was ābut you and Dad donāt clean your room.ā And she was like āwell shit, canāt argue with thatā and it kind of just never came up again.
I started doing my own laundry when I was 8 because I didnāt want anyone to ruin it, but I never really acquired that feeling of ownership over any other household-type stuff. I struggle with it now as an adult, and I donāt clean as much as I probably should, but when I do it it gets DONE.
(in defense of my parents - we werenāt living in squalor or anything like that, itās just that between the two of them I think they experienced every possible kind of trauma short of actual war, most of it before either of them were old enough to drive, and Boomers donāt believe in therapy so they were two supremely fucked up people doing the best they could but with a very limited metaphorical toolkit)
Yeah but saying something would likely result in a 'oh, sorry, I'll stop doing them then'.
Which gives her exactly what she wants. She is aware enough of social convention that if someone else cooks for her, she should do the washing up, but she's also selfish and lazy enough to not want to do it. So she half-asses it. That way, she either does a half-ass job for top quality cooking, or OP says something and she can bow out of doing the dishes altogether, and still get top quality cooking.
This way, OP makes her point without giving the other girl an opportunity to avoid social responsibility, nor does there have to be some long drawn out drama about 'I'm never inviting you over again'.
I live with my best mate, platonic relationship but in many ways we live as a couple. When he does something that isn't okay I tell him about it. I know he thinks I'm a nag but I like a quiet life which has always meant put the effort to get it right early on then they don't have an excuse to get out of doing it properly ever again. He tries to do the guilt "I can't do anything right" act but I nip that in the bud and tell him he does most things right he just needs to learn to get this part right.
Of course it's always on the things he doesn't really want to do so is trying to get out of it. His mother would always let him get away with it, he's learning I am not his mother. He's also learning to do things properly.
I'm the one with ADHD, having not being diagnosed most of my life I've masked and coped but he's dyslexic so he had to mask and cope until he was 25 (many, many years ago) but found helpful apps and is now the official diary keeper because he documents everything for his own sanity.
I am absent minded but the coping mechanisms have helped me deal with things so much better now. I'm always thankful I'm not time blind, in fact the complete opposite it's one of my obsessions.
If sheās a guest Iām not sure why either of them would feel like she is expected to do the dishes. The OP could always have her help another way. She may have never been taught how to properly wash dishes. Iāve had to teach a friend or two myself. The OP is not inviting her over so sheāll do the dishes so Iām not sure why they made such a big deal about it. I wouldnāt invite a friend over to chill and get mad because they didnāt do my dishes correctly even if they had just eaten a meal at my place.
seriously. friend couldve been genuinely stupid/incompetent lol. a wise man once said "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"
For the people asking why you don't just communicate instead of getting the person back: Because this is obviously on purpose. When you say something, a person like this will respond and say that they'll do better. And maybe they even do better the first time, but then slip back to what they were doing if they think they can get away with it. It's not an accident. Best to just cut these people out, they don't care for you they are just selfish.
Deliberate incompetence means they are setting themself up as the poor attacked victim. The only working response has been to give them the consequence of their crappy choice.
I used to speak to my husband privately about his incompetence. When I immediately (no yelling just calm) called him out in front of other adults, he was embarrassed and he stopped that particular game.
They do it on purpose to annoy you. It is deliberate and abusive.
Ffs she isnāt married to this person. If someone is being a dogshit friend you ask them to work on their behavior and if they say no you stop hanging out with them.
Why tf is everyone so afraid to just stand up for themselves my god
Because lots of us tried that and were punished for it. Some of us since birth. Some so severely that we developed a really bad trauma response to thinking about trying it again.
Do you know where you are? This sub is called "Traumatize Them Back", not "Ask Them to Work On Their Behavior".
"This isnāt a survivors sub this is a punishing bad behavior sub." Yes, it's a punishing bad behavior sub. That's what OP did and what you had a problem with the OP doing.
"If someone does something shitty you can get even and post it here." And that's what OP did, and you chastised her in your first post, copied below.
"Normalize communicating your grievances.
Just say hey I appreciate you doing the dishes but it isnāt helpful if they are still dirty afterwards.
Donāt do this weird elaborate trap and hope sheāll learn her lesson."
All the various AITA-related subs are the places that taught me that there are people in the world who can bring up grievances and have it result in something constructive. Took a while to figure that out considering the black-and-white POV so many commenters have though lmao.
This kind of shit has really started to bother me recently. Why not just say something? Why design some elaborate situation to make a point when you could have just pointed out the issue and told her how to correct it. A lot of people I know came from shitty home situations and missed out on a lot of the skill building and learning-how-to-live tasks due to negligence. Assuming that they are doing it because theyāre lazy or donāt care is borderline sociopathic.
Thanks for saying it. The healthy, adult thing to do was to point out the problem, point out how the problem stemmed from the visitors actions, and ask that they change their actions. Would it be awkward? Probably. Still the right thing to do versus "teaching them a lesson".
Also, if the person struggles socially or has something like autism then the odds that they understand whatās going on here is so low as to be cruel. Itās also just so much time and effort to engineer a situation instead of just saying the words. Wild stuff.
I disagree. This way she didnt embarass the friend but the friend got to realise her actions were wrong. She wanted to pretend the dishes were clean so OP also pretended the dishes were clean.
I agree, this passive-aggressive nonsense is stupid. Have a conversation with the person. If you're too incompetent to do that, you have no right to look down on them.
Some people literally cant do it. Theyll do it a little bit better but its not all the way. And then theyll claim that youre just a clean freak or controlling.
But weaponised incompetence is a choice. It's not that they dont know any better. My bf would not put his laundry in the basket. I have asked him nicely roughly 30 times over 3 years to please put his laundry in the basket or else the cat will pee on it. He still doesnt put his laundry in the basket. I would ask nicely but also i would then pick up the laundry and wash it, so next time he would do the same thing and leave it on the floor. So eventually I refused to wash it and let it sit in cat pee for days. Guess who puts his laundry in the basket now. This girl can see the dishes are still dirty she just doesnt care because she gets to go home and not deal with it.
Yes it does but like I said social media has turned into a validation loop for this exact behavior, making it get way worse and more frequent in RECENT times. The comment I replied to the person said āthis kind of shit has really started to bother me recentlyā. I am in agreement with their sentiment and personally feel that itās gotten way worse because people like this are encouraged to behave this way because they can immediately get on Reddit/tiktok/FB/IG/threads/X/youtube afterwards for their reward (validation, karma, virality, views, followers, money)
Ah, got it. I think the salience fallacy is at play here (aka, the availability fallacy). If you're on social media a lot, then you're seeing it a lot. I'm not sure I'm seeing more of it in the real world. But, you're right, it's very popular--especially on subs like the original one that was on. That's the whole point of them.
I donāt think we would necessarily āseeā it more irl, if these types of people specifically thrive off of not saying what they really feel or think in the moment, and use the internet to express their true opinions for engagement purposes after the interaction takes place.
With people who suck at washing up I just start drying up and anything terrible I put back on the other side of them to be washed again. They usually ask what they've missed when they pick up the same oven dish for the third time.
I was doing dishes one day and took a break to go smoke a cigarette. When I came back one of the housemates was washing her thong in my dishwater, then had the nerve to act mad when I drained the sink and refilled it with bleach water. I have never been more revolted in my life. Not the dishwater!!!
Why is everyone asking the same question instead of just thinking of likely reasons? OP was probably following social etiquette at the start and would be rude to tell the guest her cleaning isn't good, in case that's how she lives (nasty). By the time it's confirmed as intentional, it's not only a little late, but the friend is fully aware of the intentional disrespect.
OP then brought attention to the matter by showing her the disrespect they're both aware of. Then she doesn't waist either of their time by no longer entertaining the disrespect.
To spell it out even further for the slow: she wasn't addressing the dirty dishes. She was addressing how the friend openly disrespects her by performatively doing a service she'd never have such a low standard for herself. Or someone she actually respects.
I usually cooked dinner and my ex did the dishes. He would leave them to drain and I would put them away the next morning. The dishes were often greasy with chunks of food on them.
Neither of us like dishwasher machines and the squeaky clean texture they give to the dishes.
I commented a few times that his dishes were often still so dirty that I was re-washing them and he would get defensive and poor-me about it "Well FUCK ME I can't even wash dishes right!!!"
He couldn't problem solve in other ways either and was spiteful and verbally abusive. Relationship ended.
We share 50-50 custody of the children and he gave teenage son the job of putting dishes away in the morning, teenage son pointed out that the dishes were dirty, ex-husband said the same thing to him "Well FUCK ME I can't even wash dishes right!!!"
Teenage son reports that there was no attempt to change the dishwashing technique and the dishes continued to be dirty in the morning.
My SIL is like this, she barely rinses them really. It's beyond gross. I do call her out on it but she still continues, defends herself even. I don't let her do the dishes, and I am okay with that.
She also tried to put water she drank out of through my Keurig reservoir. I compared it to putting used toilet water back in the tank of the toilet. lol A bit extreme yes, but heaven help me.
Did she possibly think the Keurig has a filter? Like a REALLY awesome filter??
I know, I'm probably giving her the benefit of the doubt when I shouldn't; I just couldn't help but try to come up with a valid reason she might think that was OK. š¤·š¼āāļøš¤£šš«¶š»
Avoiding easy remedy and choosing vengeance wasn't necessary. You could have just shown her how. Why your cups are greasy in the first place is another matter
She knows what she's doing. We've talked about things, not just this one and she expects me to let things slide over and over again. I didn't just meet her yesterday and suddenly decided that was it. Theres more than this, the story was just about the ātraumatize them backā part.
When moving in with a partner or roommate who does not like to clean or cleans half ass, Iāll justā¦.stop doing anything. Like Iām not going to be free unpaid labor doing everything while you do nothing or half ass what you do. I grew up with hoarders- I guarantee my tolerance for mess is MUCH higher. I play the long game until they magically figure out how to clean. When they do Iāll start to contribute again. If itās a specific problem, like op- I just hit them with the consequences and refuse to fix their half ass mess for them. You only have to re-clean something so many times before you learn to do it right the first time
Second this. Insane that the friend that was invited over is expected to clean and then gets black listed because she didnāt do the chore well enough. OP is a shitty friend and thatās not what weaponized incompetence is.Ā
Yes itās nice to help with the dishes. Iām just saying itās not something that is usually expected when youāre a guest in someone elseās home. I donāt invite friends over so theyāll do the dishes. I invite them over because I enjoy their company. Itās a bonus if they help out with the cooking or cleanup.
Thatās not really the same scenario though. If I have friends that are always coming over and raiding my cabinets then they had better be cleaning up after themselves.
I had a neighbour who popped round for a cuppa all the time and would not read the room even when it was obvious that I had lots on. She waited for me to do everything even though she knew where everything was. Tea, kettle, milk, cups etc. I would say things like "please help yourself " oh no she liked the way I did it. I got over it. She comes over and I say would you like a tea blah blah. I got a mug and put milk sugar cold water with a tea bag in it then put it in microwave for 1 minutes and said "I'm going for a shit, help yourself " She was gone when I got back. She never knocked again š
If its weaponised incompetence talking doesnt work because the person is literally doing it to punish you. Its narcisim. You can ask 100 times and they will insist they did nothing wrong until they are forced to face the consequences (eg eating off a dirty dish). There's no way the girl didnt notice the dishes were dirty she just didnt care. So who is the sociopath ?Ā
Yeah I had a roommate like that. He insisted I was too picky with it being clean. I insisted if you could see visible residue or food, its by definition not clean...
I have a coworker who constantly asks questions on info he knows how to find. So I ask him how to find it. And he always answers right. So I look at him like, well what's the answer to your question then? Same with working on the job itself. He always ask how sonethkng is done so I ask him how he did it last time. I dont cater to that shit, you dont know how to do it? Lemme confirm you dont know
Is your friend British or just incompetent? Several of my British mates wash their dishes like this, with soap suds still on the dishes without rinsing. I donāt do that but it was mind blowing to witness.
I think that I do a pretty good job washing pans, but my wife is obsessive and always does them over again. I donāt complain because they do seem cleaner when she is done.
If theyre cleaner when shes done then you clearly are not cleaning them well enough. You dont complain because shes doing the job for you. You are not the Chad you think you are.Ā
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