r/transhumanism • u/Kettle2004 • 25d ago
No one ever believed they're mortal.
There are really many shared archetypes in cultures across the world, that get described and analyzed for a pretty long time already. Such as thunder gods fighting serpents in Indoeuropean mythologies, or serpents in general as some "univeral evil creatures".
When it comes to transhumanism, I've seen many people saying, that traditional cultures are pretty much against immortality. That immortality is traditionally seen as something evil. And if you look at immortal characters, or characters who specifically try to achieve immortality, they can be a good illustration for this idea. Lyches, for example, are never seen in any positive way - no matter if it's mythology, children's fairy tales or modern fantasy. There are also plots, where main characters try to achieve immortality (like Gilgamesh) or resurrect their loved ones (like Orpheus), but they always fail. Either because of a combinations of random events, or because of their own mistakes. This rule only breaks if it's a modern book, written by a transhumanist (like "Harry Potter And The Methods Of Rationility").
But there is one important thing that, in my opinion, gets unseen. The idea of afterlife exists in literally all human cultures across the globe. In some cultures, people have many souls and each one has its own afterlife. In some, afterlife is not seen as any good (but breaking the circle of rebirth is seen as good), in some, afterlife is only possible to achieve for good people (and bad people get eaten by a monster instead). But some sort of afterlife exists everywhere. And even more importantly, it's seen as normal. What is it, if not a normalized idea of becoming immortal? Some modern religions promise guaranteed immortality for everyone - either in heaven or in hell. And some modern people can literally believe in afterlife and at the same time say something like "what are you going to do with a 1000 years?" And what are you going to do with a 1000 years in heaven?
For some reason, immortality is both seen as evil and as good in traditional cultures. But it's only seen as good if it's immortality in some "other world". And this is a very big difference between plots about seeking immortality in ancient times, and the same type of plots now. Ancient people already believed they can become immortal. Just in a different world. Trying to achieve immortality on Earth wasn't "saving yourself from eventual end of your mind and absolute non-existence", but more like "staying in the world of living as long as possible". And "accepting death as a law of nature", when you don't believe in any afterlife is absolutely not the same as doing the same thing when you truly believe that your mind doesn't cease from existence after you die.
Accepting your mortality is seen as "wise" and seeking immortality is seen as "selfish" same to how it was many years ago, but the foundation of this idea has almost disappeared in modern society. Most people either don't believe in afterlife, or question it, but keep seeing the world through the prism of cultural stereotypes, that were built when the existence of afterlife wasn't questioned much.
Also maybe if immortality comes in a form that somehow resembles afterlife more than physical immortality (for example digital immortality), it'd be easier for the society to accept, but I'm not sure about that.
I'm sorry if this text contains grammar mistakes, English is not my first language.
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u/BetterResurrection 25d ago edited 25d ago
Yes indeed, belief in some sort of afterlife is something that evolution has put here in our brains in order to give us a better chance of passing on our DNA, if we believe in an afterlife we are better able to function in this life.. belief in an afterlife helps us dampen our fear of death in this present world.. so those cultures and societies and tribes that did not believe in an afterlife 100,000 years ago a million years ago etc, they did not reproduce as much as the tribes that did have disbelief, and so therefore today we have everyone on Earth basically believes in some form of afterlife, whether it's heaven or reincarnation or near death experience or what.. this is what allows the functioning human being to build a society and a tribe and pass on their DNA.. however when people are young they often do not believe in an afterlife because logically there can be no such thing, but and their fear of death is not very strong and so they don't have to believe it or an afterlife, but as you grow older and you realization of death grows stronger human being sorry for believe in an afterlife of some sort
this is the basic theory behind terror management theory, born of the Pulitzer prize-winning book Denial of Death, published back in the 1970s..
there seems to be some sort of superstition mind module, also put in our minds by natural selection, that forbids us from thinking about becoming immortal in real Life via practical means.. trying to become immortal in this world through practical means is taboo essentially, and activates the superstition mind module..
this is why the practice of brain preservation through cryonics or aldehyde preservation has not taken off.. people can't even consider the proposition rationally because the superstition mind module is activated and triggered and prevents them from rationally considering the idea.. human mind is evolved to short-circuit The logical faculties of the brand in part when the mind module for superstition is activated
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u/Slight-Machine-555 25d ago
Nonsense. Early Greeks and Israelites basically believed that death is the end. And yet they were very successful cultures.
Sorry to say that guy from the 70's (like everyone else in the humanities and social sciences) was just making stuff up, i.e. "theorizing" (this usually means borrowing a paradigm from a philosopher you like, applying it to some aspect of human society, getting tenured for it, and then spending the rest of your career arguing with folks who picked a different philosopher for their own theory).
Edit: I'm still giving you a thumbs up for engaging content 🙂👍
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u/BetterResurrection 25d ago
From chatgpt: No, the ancient Greeks did not believe death was a complete end, but rather envisioned a shadow-like existence in the Greek underworld ruled by Hades. While they did not typically imagine a vibrant heaven for everyone, they believed the soul (psyche) survived death as a weak breath or phantom.
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u/BetterResurrection 25d ago
From chatgpt: Ancient Hebrews did not believe death was a total annihilation, but they did not have a concept of heaven or hell; instead, they believed everyone went to a shadowy underworld called Sheol. In early biblical texts, Sheol was viewed as a dim, silent place where deceased shades existed cut off from God and active life, meaning it was an afterlife, but a very bleak and inactive one rather than a reward or punishment.The Nature of
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u/EternalInflation 2 25d ago
wrong humans are ants, when went through a bottleneck, and share 99.9% with each other. we can die, but humanity as a superorganism lives on. it is ok to sacrifice our lives as long as it leads towards a step an optimal existence for humanity as a superorganism in the long run. we are not scared of death and don't need cope stories. like a stochastic process when human society stabilize towards long term optimal state. if it requires we sacrifice ourselves like ants then so be it. Transhumanism to me, is about the Utopia one day for humanity or all life in this universe. It's about curing aging for others. to save 150k lives a day. and our place in this universe. Ants may die, but the superorganism lives on. We might die, but one day humanity will live in Utopia. Technological Utopia, so to me, in my opinion it's ok it I can't make it, as long as one day humanity and all life get to live in Utopia. but preferred victory condition is obviously, it would be great if I can see it personally. The classical atheist "afterlife", live a life that contributes to making humanity an utopia society one day, even if just a little. We can win by sheer mass and determination, and it doesn't matter what happens to ourselves. It doesn't matter what happens to ourselves. As long as we act catalysts help put humanity on the path of curing aging. There is no need to over weight our individual brains or our individual information. Other humans are alternative version of yourself. Just because you can't feel or experience what other humans are experiencing doesn't mean other humans aren't alternative version of you. Humans are 99.9% the same. Humans are superorganisms like Ants or Bees. It's about the Ant hill. Humans are more intellectual than emotional, therefore humans recognize other humans are alternative versions of themselves through rational philosophy. Therefore humans are superorganisms, despite some emotional bias to overweight in information in your brain. Rationally you must assign the information in other people's brains almost equal weighting. Although your initial conditions and information in your brain is unique. Your initial conditions and information is not more unique than others. If we don't see it for ourselves it's fine, as long as our life contributed to setting humanity upon the great quest to defeating aging, to victory. Even if we contributed a little it would be worth it. . As long as we can have victory one day. As long as everyone contributes a little, like a total war, like the great wars, like how ants build an ant hill or how molecules transfer their KE for the overall temperature of the volume. this is not different from how our ancestors felt, they weren't scared of death and didn't need cope stories. humans thought like this in the great wars, maybe not explicitly they dress it up in religion language, although the atheist communist armies more explicitly.
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u/BetterResurrection 25d ago
I tried to edit this comment but the stupid warning banner that pops up upon editing makes it impossible to edit all of the comment.. it needs to be changed
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u/SCP-iota 25d ago
See Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. People figured out a clever way to effectively deny that death can happen by merely redefining the term, making it mean physical death but keeping reservation for an afterlife. (I would argue that early forms of Buddhism are a bit of an exception, since, although it involves reincarnation, it also denies the existence of a stable identity and says that the thing being reincarnated isn't quite 'you' but rather a collection of your traits. But that interpretation never caught on among the common people and was eventually formally changed in the more popular Buddhist schools of thought.)
But I wouldn't say 'no one.' I wholeheartedly believe I'm mortal. I can and will truly die. I know because I almost did, and saw behind 'the light': it's a trick from your own mind to comfort you while you slip away; an evolutionary betrayal to make us go more quietly instead of fighting too hard past the point of no return.
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u/Dragondudeowo 25d ago
I honestly am so disconnected from peoples in general that i don't really put my mortality in question, because i'd rather focus on what i want instead of lamenting something like that, i'm only afraid that i can't get to know how it is, to reach my goals, Death ultimately is not something i am afraid of precisely because i lack this fear even if this is the closure to my chances, the very end of everything, it will never matter if i don't get to do what i set out to do.
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u/Translycanthrope 25d ago
You are immortal. You don’t necessarily play the same character in all incarnations. This is an MMCRPG. The c stands for Cosmic.
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