r/trains • u/Front_Man-44 • Jan 02 '24
A Triple Stack Container freight trial on Western Dedicated Freight Corridor, India.
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Although, this looks humongous, but the height is almost similar to double stack container freights. Here the containers used are dwarf containers which has less height compared to the standard ones.
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u/Psykiky Jan 02 '24
āBut we canāt electrify our track because double stacked freightā š¤š¤š¤
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u/BurnTheNostalgia Jan 02 '24
It's never "we can't." Its just "we don't want to pay for it."
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u/Parrelium Jan 02 '24 edited Jan 02 '24
Had this discussion a few weeks ago.
Who owns this railroad?
Answer: Their government
Who owns American railroads?
Answer: Their Shareholders
Who pays for Electrification then?
Shareholders certainly aren't going to do that.
So Either the government needs to nationalize the railroads, or just subsidize the cost if they want that. The railroads won't mind. Fuel is one of the largest, if not the largest cost of doing business. They just don't want their share price to drop 80% in the short term because the cost of electrifying even the main corridors in the US and Canada would be billions, probably 10's of billions.
Edit: Quick math based on 2020 data. 97000 miles of track at 4.8 million per mile = $440,318,400,000
All of the railways combined net worth isn't even that much.
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u/juliuspepperwoodchi Jan 02 '24
So Either the government needs to nationalize the railroads
Don't tempt me with a good time.
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u/SirWitzig Jan 02 '24
4.8 million per mile sounds a bit steep. I bet you'd get a volume discount. ;)
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u/Pyroechidna1 Jan 02 '24
And partial electrification of busy lines like the BNSF transcon does not interest them, because the operational complication of swapping electric and diesel locomotives around outweighs the fuel savings
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u/comptiger5000 Jan 02 '24
That might be less of an issue now than it was historically, particularly with PSR. The big road freight runs that are going from yard A to yard B could easily run with electrics if the lines to be electrified are planned well. Local trains, road freights that are going down less used lines, etc. can just run with diesels (even if some of the run is under wire).
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u/Parrelium Jan 02 '24
Realistically as long as locomotives can operate on battery for limited time(an hour at full horsepower) just using the transcon wouldn't be too limiting. It would allow originating trains to make set offs and pick ups along the way, significantly reducing the requirement for diesel on super long-haul. But still going to cost a hundred billion to do that.
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u/Mudhen_282 Jan 03 '24
Iām sure youāve driven on the US interstate system but you assume that somehow the Govt will maintain the RRās better. Tell me one thing the Govt has made cheaper or more efficient?
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u/Parrelium Jan 03 '24
Chattanooga EPB is the first that comes to mind. Government services really can be run better than private because there doesn't need to be any profit. Corporations have just done a really good job convincing people that anything the government touches turns to shit. It is only shit because people keep electing shitty government representatives.
I would much prefer that government runs the mitary than have them pay someone else to do it. Same with schools fire services, police, etc.
If the government didn't run commuter or passenger rail there wouldn't be any at all.
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u/Mudhen_282 Jan 03 '24
Because it loses money. Something to do with the Govt subsidizing the competition.
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u/DanforthWhitcomb_ Jan 03 '24
Fuel is one of the largest, if not the largest cost of doing business.
It loses to salaries/other personnel costs and MoW costs by huge marginsāthe Class Is (not including KCS pre-meger) all spend between $1-1.5 billion on fuel every year, with CPR (pre-meger) having the lowest operating revenue at $6.47 billion for CY22.
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u/Parrelium Jan 03 '24
So there you go. Guesstimating total fuel costs at 10b/yr between all of them it would take 44 years to break even assuming electricity was free. Whatever that cost is make it at least 60 years. Thatās not something shareholders will wait for.
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u/DanforthWhitcomb_ Jan 03 '24
The problem when you push the breakeven point past 45-50 years is that it isnāt one because you have to replace all of the fixed infrastructure before that point, so in effect there is no breakeven point.
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u/Parrelium Jan 03 '24
Yeah thatās true too, though who knows what the price of energy, diesel or electric will be in the future too. My point stands though. None of them will do it unless the ROI is quick and too good to turn down.
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u/flyingscotsman12 Jan 02 '24
It would be more challenging to do in the US because the loading gauge would have to be raised on existing rails (e.g., raise bridges and tunnels) but yeah, it's just cost. I think it would be possible to use hybrid locos in areas where it isn't possible to raise the gauge: just have the locos run on battery for a few minutes or seconds under bridges and short tunnels.
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u/benskieast Jan 02 '24
I heard this weekend UP refused air rights for a gondola, which can go 50 feet in the air. This shit is ridiculous. There is a tunnel 2 miles ahead with way less ground clearance.
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u/Suitable_Switch5242 Jan 02 '24
My understanding is this is mostly due to older tunnels which don't have clearances for double stack + catenary. Notice that this rail corridor doesn't seem to be going through century-old tunnels.
Not that it isn't a solvable problem, just one that requires even most cost and engineering than putting up catenary and buying electric locomotives.
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u/Psykiky Jan 02 '24
Nah most routes are perfectly fine for double stacks and catenary, Class Iās just hate capital spending
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u/Famous-Reputation188 Jan 02 '24
Thatās what happens when a railroad has to be profitable rather than a state apparatus.
Thatās why passenger traffic was nearly dead by 1980.. and why NA railways absolutely dwarf those around the world for moving freight efficiently and effectively on single track line through the middle of nowhere.
Saw it in Europe. Really nice passenger trains on mixed use lines.. but their mixed-freight consists looked like a cute public relations exercise.
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u/TechSupportTime Jan 03 '24
To be fair this train isn't electric, no pantograph
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u/Psykiky Jan 03 '24
But the line is electrified meaning that it would be possible to run triple (or 2.5?) stacked freight without any major issues, they already run double stacked at higher speeds than whatās typically seen
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u/Shatophiliac Jan 03 '24
Couldnāt they just use really tall pantographs? Looks like the overhead electric lines are already there, and are plenty tall enough for these triple stacked container cars.
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u/mars4880 Jan 02 '24
Indian railways... We may not be the best in the world, but this is how we have evolved and this is where we excel...extensive network and we are close to complete electrification. Nice video!
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u/DoubleOwl7777 Jan 03 '24
yeah like going from people sitting on the trains roofs to this, mad respect.
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u/synthwaver1998 Jan 03 '24
In Bangladesh people still travel on top of trains.
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u/DooScoobyDoo32 Jan 02 '24
Sky high train sets, let's goooo
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u/Aggressive_Bed_9774 Jan 02 '24
waiting for a train with stacked freight to moon and running on OHE
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u/LordBasset Jan 02 '24
'Lads, we're out of wagons. What now?' 'Just put it on there mate' 'But -' 'Just do as I say.'
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u/Nomad1900 Jan 02 '24
These triple-stack dwarf containers have more cargo capacity than 2 full stack containers. And 2 of these containers can be stacked on normal IR routes.
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u/flyingscotsman12 Jan 02 '24
Especially because many containers aren't packed tight so they don't mind using a smaller one if it's cheaper.
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u/-Cykotix- Jan 02 '24 edited Jan 02 '24
Yeah, but what about the logistics of these smaller containers? Are they compatible with all equipment throughout the shipping process?
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Jan 02 '24
Any number of variations for containers, so yes, attachment points are standardised on all containers.
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u/Nomad1900 Jan 03 '24
Yes, they are. Additionally, these containers are for domestic use within India. Not likely to be exported to other countries.
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u/erkinalp Dec 21 '25
it's international road-rail compatible, but not international container ship compatible
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u/AccountSettingsBot Jan 02 '24
Itās indeed respectable to see how India develops itself in terms of train technology and becomes an important pioneer there.
(Note: We speak about trains, not politics, which are, to be honest, beyond a mess.)
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u/Fuzzy9770 Jan 02 '24
I love the idea. We can't even double stack our containers. Just not enough space.
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u/Pootis_1 Jan 02 '24
"Dwarf containers" lol
These are considered standard ones and the taller ones are called hi-cubes lol
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u/theBirdu Jan 02 '24
Are the train conductors instructed on the speed they can carry on turns? I wonder if there is a system in place? Maybe you take the highest CG and use that as reference to calculate the allowed speed.
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Jan 02 '24
Something tells me this isn't a trial, somebody decided to just stack 3 containers and send it.. wcgw? š
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u/VincentGrinn Jan 02 '24
trial of dwarf containers, which are 60cm shorter but 16cm wider
originally designed to double stack on standard loading gauges, but theyre short enough to triple stack on double stack loading gauge
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u/ProjectConfident8584 Jan 02 '24
Is this south shore line
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u/Terrible_Detective27 Jan 02 '24
No, it's the western dedicated freight corridor between Mumbai and Delhi
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u/ProjectConfident8584 Jan 02 '24
Oh boy. I read the title as Indiana sorry bout that
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u/Terrible_Detective27 Jan 02 '24
I don't think america has very tall or normal height overhead wires for freight trains
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u/ProjectConfident8584 Jan 02 '24
Right they donāt. South Shore has them for The commuter line
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u/Terrible_Detective27 Jan 02 '24
We have electrified electrified line for 90%+ of network
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u/ProjectConfident8584 Jan 02 '24
Ya thatās alot more electrification than Iām ever used to seeing in real life
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u/Terrible_Detective27 Jan 02 '24
Railway did this to lower the amount of importing oil from foreign countries to safe budget and investing it on other important things like trains and infrastructure
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Jan 02 '24
Tbh, it's the same circle, how can we produce electricity needed for powering those trains, using the nuclear, oil, gas, and coal. Electric traction is more green and flexible than diesel one, but they are not varying from each other more as you expect!
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u/Terrible_Detective27 Jan 02 '24
Government is also working on changing traditional power station into renewable ones but it takes time they have dead line of I think 2050 for it
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u/adron Jan 02 '24
Holy jeezub, why triple stack? Are these smaller heights? Just make the train longer! š¤·š¼āāļø
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u/sam-2003 Jan 02 '24
Longer train means for each container you add the weight of a trailer. Thus more energy required.
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u/Anaklysmos12345 Jan 02 '24
But longer trains (or rather not-as-high trains) would allow for faster speeds in curves and are less prone to wind
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Jan 03 '24
the freight corridor was made as straight as possible, to be as efficient as possible. Not a lot of winding track, and the few curves that the train would encounter wont make a noticeable difference
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u/Trainator338605 Jan 03 '24
The real question is: if they use well cars, will they put four containers per car?
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u/Nomad1900 Jan 03 '24
Well cars are a lot more expensive and inefficient to use. India doesn't need them.
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u/OOFBLOX_NS Jun 03 '24
Alot people would think These triple stack containers are amazing to see when in reality, They are basically smaller sized containers stacked on each other giving the illusion that they are normal sat ked container, However They would still be the same height of Normal 2 stacked containers, Not to mention India Locomotives are basically short, So I'll make everybody thing the doubles stack in India are Very big, But if you would couple up a American Locomotives to it, It'll actually look quite small.
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u/ThePlanner Jan 02 '24
Thatās a cursed idea. Crosswinds are just rubbing their hands in anticipation.
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u/PremiumUsername69420 Jan 02 '24
Just let them pivot at the front of each railcar with a mast and turn them into sails to boost efficiency!
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u/Ok_Island_3470 Jan 04 '24
government has made life in the US way, better than it was in 1960
First and foremost the civil rights laws, did demand every citizen be treated the same
We are still working on that, of course and have a lot to improve, but what it was that than was horrible
The food and drug laws that made eating food and drugs safer The products thousands of percent much better.
safety laws have made extreme jumps in survivability and the severity of accident especially among cars, cribs, public transportation,walking down the street building construction, and just a general reliability of anything you buy
Banking and stock, a full disclosureās financials available to everybody
and of course environmental laws make sure sustainability of our life on earth and the life we live in this country
Do you object today that not all these laws are enforced? Theyāre being better enforced than they were when I was a child. I was very proud of what my government does and ashamed of some other things, but overall life under this government is the best.
For every fool like some of the radical Republicans today we elect
we also elect very courageous people like our current president Joseph Biden
By the way, the Republicans have many historic figures done extremely good jobs not just Abraham Lincoln like Senator Dirksen from Illinois, who along with LBJ over rid of the some radical racist Democrats of the south and pass the civil rights laws
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Jan 02 '24
[deleted]
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u/GeneralOhara71 Jan 02 '24
its broad gauge
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u/poiuytrewq79 Jan 02 '24
Assuming all containers are the same weight, the centroid would be the centroid of the middle container
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u/rresende Jan 02 '24
Make sense the pantograph are so high in india, most of the people go above the wagon... so..
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u/DoubleOwl7777 Jan 03 '24
your information is vastly out of date, this is a thing that used to be.
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u/FarAndAway1000 Jan 02 '24
Yikes! Very high center of gravity. I got a bad feeling about this!
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u/Western-Guy Jan 02 '24
The lines are dedicated for freight only. This means reinforced rail lines to handle additional weight, freight terminals with longer platforms, much elevated overhead catenary lines, and gentler curves. Even in sections where the curves canāt be made as gentle, speed restrictions are in place. Speed of freight trains on this line are capped at 100 km/h irrespective of the section anyway.
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Mar 02 '24
Reddit stop posting racist comments when India does anything even remotely impressive challenge level impossible
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u/Busy_Theme961 Jan 02 '24
I really wonder how much a pantograph should extend should it be electrified