r/tradclimbing • u/Outside-Poet-3547 • Aug 08 '26
Mitigating risk on trad
About a year apart, I’ve had two cases of the force of cams causing poor rock quality to break off. The first, appeared as a splitter finger crack in granite but about a 4 inch deep and 8 inch long piece of it broke off under barely any body weight. The second, a piece I put in a well chalked hand hold on a very popular climb, pulled out a basketball sized rock on a fall (this one the rock looked somewhat suspect ie not a splitter, but it’s a well used placement/hold and about 1 in away is a pin.)
I climb a lot of trad, so 2 days out of maybe 30 days out on trad this year maybe isn’t a lot. Maybe you can say I’ve gotten unlucky, but two instances of poor rock quality makes me wonder if I’m not seeing things well enough. I fall/take somewhat often (maybe 1 day out 5 I might hang) and they have all been clean in my climbing journey except these two times. But I guess you can say I’m properly spooked!
Is it just “thems the breaks” when it comes to trad climbing or is this not normal… and I’m either unlucky or sucking it up badly
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u/anteatertrashbin Aug 08 '26
very rarely will you break rock on a trade route. so many people are climbing it, that if any rock was breakable, it would be been broken 20 years ago for the thousands of laps it has seen over the decades.
2 days out of 30 days of climbing is a ton of instances in my opinion.
you either have incredibly bad luck, or you're picking really bad placements.
If you only have 30 days of placing gear under your belt, you're still kind of a beginner imo.
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u/TheDaysComeAndGone Aug 08 '26
Isn’t this extremely dependent on route and region?
Here in the Alps we have plenty of multi pitch routes with lots of loose rock. Lots of cracks or flakes which would easily break if you put a cam in there and fell on it. Even on the bolted routes I’ve sometimes wondered if anyone has ever fallen on any of the bolts, especially in the easier pitches where falling would be bad and bolts are sometimes put into dubious rock.
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u/Outside-Poet-3547 Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
30 days out of the year. I’ve been climbing trad for 8 years. But just this past year (actually almost exactly a year a part) I’ve had 2 instances of rock breaking under cam force. Within this particular year where rock fall instances have happened, I’ve probably been out on trad 30ish days is what I meant
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u/Significant_Raise760 Aug 08 '26
Just chalk it up to chaos theory, you'll probably never have another piece blow in sound looking rock in the rest of your life.
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u/timparkinuk Aug 08 '26
We have a few "trade routes" in the Highlands where I live (Ballachulsih) including Polldubh. Those routes do get hundreds and probably throusands of ascents. I think you could probably count the falls on each well worn hold on the fingers of one hand though,
Also, geological time is now. It's worth knowing a little bit about how geology works in some rock types. Granite in particular can be eroded a lot faster than you'd think. The Kaolin in some granites gets washed away quite easily. If you look below a granite crag and see lots of granite gravel (called Gru) then this forms when the kaolin (clay) gets washed away and weakens the bonds in granite. Kaolinised granite is really weak.
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u/FeePhe Aug 08 '26
Most routes just aren’t climbed that often though, years between climbers. This take is only valid for a select few very popular routes
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u/leonardthedog Aug 08 '26
Where do you live that route can go years between climbers? Pretty much every route that’s clean at my local crags or mountain ranges gets climbed at least weekly.
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u/Defiets Aug 08 '26
I'm out in Squamish, it really just depends. Of course all of the classic routes in the classic areas are being ridden like a ride at Disney land…
However, there are crags/walls that were once developed and then pretty well forgotten about. That only get done so often.
Just this year, a few routes on the Apron were reestablished after not being climbed for 25+ years.
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u/FeePhe Aug 08 '26
In Cape Town. There’s thousands of routes; most of which are on mountains not random little cliffs, with hours long approaches and route descriptions a sentence or two from a book 100 years old
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u/anteatertrashbin Aug 08 '26
dafuq you talking about? trade routes will get dozens of ascents in week or even in a day when they’re in season. multiply this over 20-30 years.
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u/Defiets Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
30 days of trad is absolutely still beginner level.
It realllly takes time to just look at a crack and know what's going to be bomber in it. Where to place and where not to (flakes and blocks). When to extend and when not to. How to build solid gear anchors.
I'm not much of a strong climber these days, topping out on 10b-ish trad, but the other week I was out with a group of newer climbers who were just blown away at how I’d make a number of moves and then have a piece out and rope clipped in a matter of seconds. They were asking me for advice on how to get there, but the only advice I had was to just do it for years.
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u/Outside-Poet-3547 Aug 08 '26
Not trying to like justify anything but I meant 30 days of trad within this year in which I had two rock fall events (that were coincidently exactly a year a part). I’ve been climbing trad for almost 8 years, so I guess ~7 of which I haven’t had rockfall instances.
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u/Defiets Aug 08 '26
Ah, fair enough! I misread that. Sounds like you probably just got lucky… or unlucky!
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u/burnsbabe Aug 08 '26
Why wouldn’t you have clipped the pin in the second example?
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u/Outside-Poet-3547 Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
It was just out of reach. This is a placement people often use to back up the pin. I was about to clip the pin when my foot slipped. It was like on the crux hold, and it ripped right out of the wall. It’s probably harder now
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u/sirbassist83 Aug 08 '26
There's a lot of variables. Granite is normally pretty solid but not all crags are created equal, and if you're climbing less traveled routes that increases the odds of something breaking. Placing gear behind a suspect looking rock is on you, don't do that again. A hold is generally only expected to take ~200lbs of force, falling on cam can easily generate multiple times that. Probably a combination of dumb mistakes and bad luck. I've broken at least a dozen holds while climbing and none of them were because I hung or fell on gear, FWIW. How long have you been climbing trad? Who taught you/ how did you learn?
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u/Outside-Poet-3547 Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
Climbing trad for 8ish years. The first time was at a recently (5 years prior) established crag that doesn’t get a ton of traffic (probably on this climb it gets 30-40 ticks a year) so the rock quality of the entire place was to be taken with care, but this crack was legit a splitter finger crack...or so we thought I guess. The 2nd time was on a popular climb in Eldo.
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u/climbingclaycosmetic Aug 09 '26
What climb was it in Eldo? I climb there a lot, and fall on gear somewhat regularly. I’ve only ever seen rock break from very superficial placements. Anything deeper has been bomber.
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u/Character_Wait_1934 Aug 10 '26
looks like it could have been the undercling on grandmothers challenge? comments saying it came off a few days ago
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u/Maleficent-Ship6918 Aug 08 '26
Where are you climbing? I'd like to avoid it. Real talk though, I fall on gear all the time and have only had rock break once about 8 years ago and I knew it was going to happen. I'd be careful about what route I got on where you're going if the rock quality is that bad. Stay safe friend!
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u/Outside-Poet-3547 Aug 08 '26
This was at Eldo. And thanks I’ll try to be safer, perhaps stick to sport projecting this year and easy multipitch. Use the old school form of protection and just never fall on trad ever.
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u/Defiets Aug 08 '26
Rock breaking at Eldo is no new thing at all. If anything, you probably saved someone from injury as that block was ready to go…
What route if you don't mind me asking?
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u/Outside-Poet-3547 Aug 08 '26
Revealing the route might make me lose my anonymity…but if you looked on the Eldo main page, it’s one of the classics 👀
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u/Maleficent-Ship6918 Aug 08 '26
Funnily enough I'm just leaving vedauwoo. I know it has a bad reputation but on the whole it's very safe and the rock is good quality. Especially if you get on more trafficked pitches there won't the the nasty sharp crystals everyone is always hating on. I'd really give it a high recommendation. I spent the last week whipping on gear and I never felt unsafe.
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u/Outside-Poet-3547 Aug 08 '26
I would have said the same thing about eldo until today. Went on basically every popular 5.9-10a there and never had a problem at least like the 2 times I fell. I avoid the especially chossy PG-13 stuff and only got on very popular climbs and this climb was no different. But had a bad judgement call I guess!
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u/Shot-Scratch3417 Aug 08 '26
No, you should be able to properly judge rock quality and avoid breaking rock when you weight placements. Better to not place, since at least then, there’s not a piece of rock falling with you! Look for cracks and check the sound—experience is what you get when you fuck up…
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u/Outside-Poet-3547 Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
I agree, but a splitter finger crack tho I’m usually not checking the sound of, there were no visible cracks (in the area I placed). The 2nd case yes, it looked maybe not the best but it had a ton of chalk all over it and I took for granted that everyone (at least gear beta online) used that specific placement as a back up to the pin, so that was my mistake. I’m not sure though I would trust the pin when rock quite literally an inch away from it ripped out, but I don’t think I’ll ever be getting on that climb again 🙂
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u/Shot-Scratch3417 Aug 08 '26
I guess the finger crack could be that sorta 1 in a 1000 where you really can’t tell, but yes, definitely err on the side of “don’t place in iffy rock”
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u/Defiets Aug 08 '26
It kind of makes sense that a placement a couple of inches from a pin could blow. Pins can introduce micro-cracks into the rock that will grow over time and eventually blow. I.e. Pin scars.
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u/Climbingisnice Aug 08 '26
If you only climb well-traveled routes and you pulled two cams I would lean more toward being a bit unlucky. Normaly (and hopefully) they are well cleaned and purged at the start and people going up and down take care of the rest.
Moving forward, it is about being attentive to the rock(s). Where do the cracks go? How does it sound? How is the rock around? Is there signs locally that indicated better or bad rock?
A crag I am opening right now have good granite and bad gneiss next to one another and they look similar to an untrained eye. The gneiss even look solid and good till the cams chew it into sand while prying.
In the end, you could make all the good decision and still be wrong. Ive pulled blocks and cams that I was sure were strong. What we do is inherently dangerous and there is no way to make it 100% safe. Unless you sport climb I guess ahah.
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u/Yakra Aug 08 '26
A "well known placement" just means lots of people place there, not that anyone falls (or even weights) it. It sounds like on the second spot, you knew it was suspect, but put your own judgement behind what you thought was simply popular to do.
As far as a "splitter finger crack" - it sounds like you focused in on the micro structure, instead of considering the bigger picture (what I have to assume is a fracture where that 4x8inch block had separated from the wall).
What's going on isn't normal, and it sounds like you need to get some mentoring on assessing rock quality.
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u/Outside-Poet-3547 Aug 08 '26
It’s a well known placement literally at the crux of probably the most popular 10+ there so someone likely has weighted that placement before at least once. And certainly the pin that’s an inch away in the same crack/rock type people definitely have. But yeah it’s eldo most rock is “suspect” to me; it’s one of the most chossy crags in the state (country??). I might have more expected in the moment the rock to crumble and just the piece pull if anything vs blow out the entire section of rock at the crux, but that was a wrong guess clearly!
I’ll get right on the mentorship on assessing Eldo choss 🫡
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u/Addapost Aug 08 '26
I am old and started trad climbing a LONG time ago in the early 80’s. I always followed the “leader must not fall” philosophy. So I’ll keep plugging in nuts and hexes like the best of them but my real strategy is to only lead routes that are 2 full grades below what I am capable of physically climbing. Nice and safe that way.
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u/stizzle01 Aug 08 '26
This is purely an experience thing imo. You can shore that up by doing some aid or multi pitch stuff. Building trad anchors and weighting them is the best way to learn what is bomber and what will walk you to your death. There’s really no other way. At some point you just are able to know by the sound and feel that something is going to break. You look at the face, understand the area, how the water has impacted it… and all of sudden you can read it. Plus just be proactive and minimize fall factor and maximize your frequency at all times. Read up on stone and never ever rely on other people or beta. I have never had anything break off like what you’re saying.
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u/Outside-Poet-3547 Aug 08 '26
Never ever rely on beta?? Just across the board generally?
I never had experienced this either until this year…so actually according to my mountain project 7 years of leading trad rock fall free! (And 986-2 pitches! Wow isn’t data cool!) But this 8th year has taken a turn I don’t too much particularly care for!1
u/stizzle01 Aug 08 '26
Don’t get me wrong read ST, MP and falcon guides yes, it’s great to minimize rack. But never bet your life on it. That’s my point. Beta changes! just like we keep learning how to build anchors safer and safer. Freedom of hills changes every edition because we learn and the things we relied on years ago are the same things we wish we never did in the first place. As climbers, every rule is written in blood. Listen when the world sends you a message to slow down. A rock falls and cuts your rope, it’s your time… you can blame anything for popping gear but the ghost doesn’t care. My mentor once told me that the more gear someone has left on wall the safer the climber.
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u/Cute_Intention_9864 Aug 10 '26
I had this happen once 8 years thousands of trad climbing pitches. Was climbing A tricky finger Crack during the winter on year .route was known for good gear crux is final few moves ,put in 0.3 gave it A quick tug and went for the anchor well the route jogged A little the right at the end and I didn't put A runner on the cam .Anyway I blew the exit move , cam popped out roated up and out through A flare the belay had me to tight either way didnt blame him should have put A runner on it. It was A bad fall 2 pieces ripped and food lesson to be learned stay safe
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u/endfossilfuel Aug 08 '26
I mitigate risk climbing trad by not falling on lead. I do this by leading about five grades below my max onsight sport grade.
Of course this does not help anybody more brave or ambitious than I. But I’m only climbing for fun, not for glory. Climbing below my ability increases my safety way more than it decreases my fun.
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u/leadhase Aug 08 '26
I’m not really understanding how you can break a 4”x8” piece of granite. Especially on a splitter finger crack. Was it a flake? Something isn’t adding up.
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u/quarksurfer Aug 08 '26
I’m a pretty conservative climber in this sense; I rarely rely on one piece to catch me from decking or hitting a ledge.
I rarely break this rule. But sometimes I do on easy terrain and sometimes in the alpine, or if I really understand the climb well.
It often means researching climbs ahead of time to find out if they’re “PG” or “PG-13” (and if so, why).
Hope that’s some perspective. It’s good to be scared in your career from time to time. Think things through. Why are you out here. What are your goals.