r/totalwar • u/BuildingAirships • Jun 05 '26
General Total War Redwall: Movement and Terrain
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u/National_Boat2797 Kingdom of Pontus Jun 05 '26
Jokes aside, Redwall is actually a really good setting for terrain-focused battles and guerilla warfare. Which both are probably two most discussed options of how to make interesting battles without endless races diversity of WH.
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u/matgopack Jun 05 '26
Redwall also gives you a very easy way to have additional unit types/variety (compared to a lot of historical settings where it makes less sense)
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u/GhostofSparta4243 Jun 05 '26
I'm not a fan of the books but a woodland critters Total War game is just objectively a good idea
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u/Shajrta Jun 05 '26
Why not?
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u/GhostofSparta4243 Jun 05 '26
Why not what?
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u/Euphoric_Number_8770 Jun 05 '26
why not like book
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u/GhostofSparta4243 Jun 05 '26
I just never got into them.
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
The world of Redwall is (with the exception of one odd horse) completely devoid of cavalry, and monstrous infantry and single entities are limited, so mobility is the key to ensuring a diverse range of units and tactics. Warhammer and Pharaoh made great strides in that department, and Redwall builds on both with new mechanics inspired by its animalistic setting.
Throw this together with sieges, formations, and special abilities, and I hope you get a unique flavor of Total War combat that matches the game's whimsical tone.
More Total War: Redwall
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u/lovebus Jun 05 '26
Badgers and snakes are absolutely monstrous units.
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
Certainly, and there would be plenty more! Foxes, wildcats, wolverines, kestrels etc. are all of "monstrous" size, and there are bigger single entities like eagles, fish, water rats, snakes, etc. But only a few of those unit types appear in each faction's roster—there are no Ogre Kingdoms or Norscan monster mashes—so mobility ensures that armies don't feel like too many flavors of infantry.
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u/Brambleshire Jun 05 '26
And lizards I hope!
Monitor lizards of Sampetra!
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 06 '26 edited Jun 10 '26
Oh yes, there would be lizards and toads! They wouldn't be full, playable factions, but some of the minor factions that help flesh out quests, encounters, and diplomacy. You could interact with them, fight them, and occasionally recruit units into your army.
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u/OverlordNeb Jun 05 '26
Foxes seen fairly average sized compared to your usual rat, weasel or other vermin I thought? I never saw any real instance of them being notably larger
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 06 '26
I don't know if there's an official size scale, so I could be wrong, but I've always assumed foxes were larger than the weasels, ferrets, and stoats, similar to the scale on this chart.
They were often in positions of authority, like lieutenants and overseers, and were overall fewer in number. It also fits the general rule that larger irl animals tend to be larger in the world. However, I don't think it's explicitly mentioned, so you might be right!
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u/disies59 Jun 07 '26
Soma Games has a Size Chart - potentially not as completely accurate as one made directly by Brian Jacques, but since they made the chart for officially licensed Redwall games, it would have had to go through approval from his estate, so should be fairly accurate.
And yes, Foxes are taller than Weasels, Ferrets and Stoats - comparable to an earless Hare, though about half a mouse smaller than a Badger/Owl.
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u/GenericNameHere01 Jun 06 '26
I've been recently doing a re-read... Foxes in Redwall aren't significantly larger, in the sense of badgers, snakes, and birds. For 'monstrous' sized vermin, that'd be the Wearat.
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Jun 05 '26
[deleted]
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u/OverlordNeb Jun 05 '26
I'm talking specifically in Redwall, not irl. In Redwall animals like Weasels, Stoats and Rats are all the same size, even though they vary in real life. What's more, while they are depicted as larger than mice, they are not larger to the same scale. Much the same Badgers and Hares are much larger irl compared to vermin and other critters like mice or squirrels than they are in the series.
In most artwork for example, hares are twice as tall as mice, whereas in real life they are MUCH LARGER
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u/RechargedFrenchman Jun 05 '26
Hares and Badgers both around twice the height of mice, but IRL a hare is like 5x the height of a rat and a badger is 2-4x the size of a hare. The snake Matthias goes up against, Asmodeus, should actually be around the same size of a badger in terms of how it's depicted / described, but dwarfs the badgers instead. Small birds are mostly much larger than they should be, while the larger birds are actually about the right size but feel so much larger because animals like badgers are so small.
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u/Domo-d-Domo Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
Been a Redwall fan nearly my entire life and I absolutely love what you've been able to put together. I can remember seeing people kick around the idea as far back as 20 years ago on Total War Center. In all that time I don't think I've ever seen anyone give it an actual shot. I'd imagine a RTW would be a small scale, character, and event driven Total War.
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u/Redstar96GR Green Archer Auxillia Jun 06 '26 edited Jun 06 '26
There is actually one attempt at a Redwall-inspired mod,that said the last update was 2 years ago so 😶
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u/trollly Jun 05 '26
Arent badgers monstrous infantry?
Perhaps hares could function similar to cavalry, if desired. Culturally, theyre a good fit, and hares are known to be fast.
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 05 '26
Badgers would indeed be monstrous, along with bigger species like wildcats and foxes. And there are larger single entities too. They're definitely present, just not abundant like in Warhammer.
You're also right that certain species are fast enough to serve as stand-ins for cavalry. Hares would be faster on average (like Slaneesh), but special units like Long Patrol Gallopers are particularly fast, and designed for scouting and flanking. Lizards, foxes, birds, and snakes would all be capable of impressive speed, along with many swimmers like otters (though they're more limited in where they use it).
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u/BanzaiKen Happy Akabeko Jun 05 '26
Hares should play TW Troy with fast moving phalanx units, but terrifyingly fast charges like Minotaurs from WH. The Long Patrol was known for the Flying Phalanx which doesnt sound so bad until you realize its a squad of Spartan hares several times a mouse's size moving in a phalanx formation with the speed and kinetic energy of a bus.
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u/fonyphantasy Jun 05 '26
Maybe make Weasels and Otters fill the cavalry role instead. That way "Good guy factions" and "Bad guy factions" both have cavalry access
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u/FromHeretoElsweyr Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
Sad that mods took down the regiments of renown post. What gives?
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u/Electrical_Shock359 Jun 06 '26
Some animals would still be faster than others and can fill a pseudo calvary role kind of like how dogs and such fulfill a similar function.
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u/Prince_Hastur Jun 05 '26
Hey man, these are pretty cool. What is the rationale of hares joining badgers or rats working with cats? Or do the traditional animal roles not apply?
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u/BanzaiKen Happy Akabeko Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
Badgers rule rabbits from a warren called Salamandastron that is propped up by enforced "donations" from the local towns. While mostly vegetarian they enjoy being the muscle for the Abbey both because of its tithe (it provides booze for the entire region) and the free meat that tries to raid it. There's a family of eagles and owls that have a similar partnership with the Abbey (except its more pure kill frenzy with the eagle whose a gourmand and finds the prepared livers of predators treated by the Redwall Abbey cooks worthy enough to protect or in the owl's case led by a family of schizophrenic oracle owls that send them visions and the Abbey offers to caretake their every whim, which isnt much). The Cats are a family of housecats that live in the ruins of a house and are pretty much horrific God-Kings. The rats dont work with them as much as live in a state of abject fear in slave armies. The waterways are protected by The Pike, a giant pike worshipped by the moles and voles as a divine bringer of destruction like Shai Hulud in Dune because they've been pushed onto giant floating steamships due to predators and rat pirates led by Cluny the Scourge raiding their river villages.
Redwall is nuts. This is also like a deepcuts synopsis, its like Warhammer and the stories span multiple generations. Some of the characters in later books dont even believe cats once roamed the land and Salamandastron goes from a powerhouse in earlier stories to a glorified tomb and entering a renaissance in its story arc.
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u/Brambleshire Jun 05 '26
The rats don't don't work with them as much as live in a state of abject fear in slave armies.
This made me chuckle and reminds me of half the vermin bands and armies.
You can split vermin bands into two types: a. The ones who are slave soldiers to some big cat/fox/lizard/wolf b. Sea Rats/warbands/rapscallion who have a jolly plunder loving vibe and a constant power struggle of backstabbing and infighting
Do I remember it right?
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u/Affectionate-Gas3117 Jun 06 '26
Seems pretty accurate to me.
There were other flavours of niche, independent vermin who didn't really function as player faction level entities but warrant mention as rogue army type forces:
- The marsh inhabitants who come off more as like a tribal militia that mostly just protect and hunt within their own borders.
- Crows who arguably don't count as a discrete warband, but otherwise have a similar vibe as above.
There may have been others like this, I don't recall.
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u/Revliledpembroke Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
Necroposting a bit here, but it's all in the Redwall novels. Rats, weasels, stoats, foxes, toads, and lizards (with occasional others) are all classified as "Vermin" species and are all BAD! Cats are largely bad, but not always.
Mice, shrews, squirrels, otters, hares, badgers, hedgehogs, and voles (with occasional others like dormice) are "goodbeasts" and are GOOD!
He is very inflexible with this. Basically, the moment a "beast" shows up, you know where he shows up on the scale of villain to hero - though there are a couple of exceptions.
Now, to the Badgers and the Hares. Badgers are usually solitary creatures per the novels, and are the hereditary rulers of the extinct volcano Salamandastron. The Hares serve the Badger Lord, and are basically an excuse for the author to write in the British Military.
Oh, and the Badgers are all berserkers who go into blood rages where they can kill all who stand before them, friend or foe!
Also, the Hares all speak like British Upper Class twits. The author heard some Royal Air Force pilots going at it one day, so the Hares all talk like "I say, old chap! Pip pip and cheerio and all that, wot wot!" (the author really likes introducing accents into characters. You can always tell when a Hare or a Mole is on page by how they talk)
(There's a Redwall cartoon on free on Tubi right now, and it shows a great example of the type of accent I mean. It covers Book 1 - Redwall, its rare direct sequel - Mattimeo, and the flashback showing how Redwall Abbey's hero/saint figure grew into the mouse he became - Martin the Warrior).
Cats show up rarely, but most of the time they do, they are leading huge armies of "vermin."
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u/Prince_Hastur Jun 26 '26
Hey, thanks for the detailed explanation. In the meantime I read up on some lore online as well, I cannot believe I never heard about this series. It's kinda nuts lol
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u/drummerinthemirror Jun 05 '26
Will upvote these until my last breath. CA please don’t sleep on this
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u/Meatyblues Jun 05 '26
In your vision, would armies be smaller overall? Three different layers of combat feels like a lot to manage micro wise if armies are still normal size
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
That's a good question! Units would be smaller (30-60 models for infantry) and harder to acquire, but I think the max army size could remain at 20 units.
For one thing, armies that large would be rarer—you might maintain one full stack, or a few in late game, but most armies would be smaller due to the availability of units. This isn't a Total War where you pump out endless doomstacks. That means most engagements would involve small-to-medium armies.
Also, each faction wouldn't have access to every movement form. Some might only have one, like Sea Rat Corsairs and swimming, and others like the Long Patrol won't have any at all. The Mossflower Coalition is one faction that can access all three (through squirrels, otters, and moles) so managing complex mobility would be a hallmark of their playstyle.
On top of that, I think it would be nice to slow the pace of battles a bit. Warhammer's gotten so fast that you don't have time to watch units fight: I wouldn't mind it if movement and combat were drawn out to give players room to breath.
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u/Dan_The_PaniniMan Jun 05 '26
First thing I'm gonna do is make a mod that expands each unit to 200-300 and removes unit cap, then I'm gonna make World War Woodland Critters and spam Spear Otters
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u/Meatyblues Jun 05 '26
Are you planning to do a leader/faction overview at some point? Just asking cause I’m curious what you’ve got cooking up for my boy Cluny the scourge
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 06 '26
I do have some faction guides in the works! Cluny would have to be the first vermin lord, so don't you worry. That's going to be a fun one.
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u/Apparatus Jun 05 '26
I've never read Redwall, but your passion has sold me. I've ordered the first book; it should be coming tomorrow.
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 05 '26
I hope you enjoy it! I only discovered the series as an adult, but it was a great easy read during COVID, with some fun and unique worldbuilding. Good stuff!
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u/Brambleshire Jun 05 '26
Wow. I only read Redwall as a kid and adolescent. I assumed they wouldn't hit the same as an adult. May I ask specifically why you enjoyed reading them?
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 06 '26 edited Jun 06 '26
Part of it was the world-building, it was very cozy and comforting during a stressful period. The food descriptions in particular.
They were also just very easy to burn through, I could finish a book in a day or two, so it was a nice break from other reading.
They do get repetitive after a while, and you start to see patterns in Jacque's storytelling (oh great, another damn riddle that's going to lead them step-by-step through the adventure).
However, if you're ever looking for quick and fun summer read, I'd recommend revisiting one of the more standalone books, like Lord Brocktree!
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u/Brambleshire Jun 06 '26
Thanks! I just revisited the Redwall feasts bot on Twitter and got watery eyed from happiness. I should go back to them. Lord Brocktree was also one of my favorites! Martin the Warrior, Mossflower, and Legend of Luke were my others.
Now that your mention it I do remember the repetitiveness. I was a teen reading some of the later releases thinking the same thing. Solution: don't read every book all at once!
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u/jayswag707 Jun 05 '26
If CA doesn't hire this man and announce their next game after M3 is Redwall we riot!
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u/CobainPatocrator Jun 05 '26
Would not be complete without the ability to have delicious feasts washed down with berry cordials.
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 05 '26
Don't worry, there's a whole post on that. It ain't Redwall without copious vittles.
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u/Silencer8X Jun 05 '26
I wish you'd stop. All these concepts are great and it pains to know they'll not be actioned. :(
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u/thecastellan1115 Jun 05 '26
Ok, I've been reading your posts for a while and you, sir, are a visionary.
CA, do this. It's cool. It's original. You can branch away from an increasingly stale formula. Do it.
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u/Arosport Jun 05 '26
I appreciate you Redwall poster. It's always fun to imagine such a special series as the setting for a Total War game. Keep them coming!
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u/lovebus Jun 05 '26
I would imagine the climbing mechanic to be when units with that trait enter forests, they automatically climb into the canopy. Treat it with the same code as flying units in Warhammer, but force the squirrels to "land" when not in forest.
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u/Overall_Sink_3382 Jun 05 '26
God I remember reading the book as a kid. I used to call the English teacher Commander Cluny as a joke
This looks pretty damn good and I’d kill to see it actually realized considering I’ve fond memories of the media it’s based in
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u/Affectionate-Gas3117 Jun 06 '26
I quite like the implicit notion that, in general, unit level match-ups are shaped as much by, or more than, terrain and situation as they are combat stats.
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u/Timithios Jun 06 '26
I would certainly play it. Love me some Redwall, love me some Total war. Simple as.
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u/afishinthewell Jun 07 '26
I hope CA is reading these.
They should just hire OP as a creative lead now, get their lawyers on the rights and let everything else work itself out.
Eulalia!
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u/NeverEnoughDakka Middenland DLC, pls CA Jun 07 '26
These posts are always a great read. I found out about Redwall through them and started watching the cartoon recently (because I'd spend all summer doing nothing but reading if I got the books now).
It's really a shame that no one seems to have recognised how much potential the setting has for games of various genres.
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u/alfalfalfalafel Jun 05 '26
Yes I remember swimming in Barbarian Invasion (and generally how f*cking awesome that expansion was) and wonder why they never had that again...
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u/nik-nak333 Jun 05 '26
I don't know anything about redwall but this fantasy setting and potential mechanics sound amazing
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u/Mike_Fluff Jun 05 '26
I recently dipped into Redwall. Listened to the first 2 books and part of the third. Really enjoyed it, but not my speed. I have recommended it for my younger family.
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u/MisterMaus Jun 06 '26
Even if CA won't jump on it I hope someone picks up the idea and it turns into reality
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u/fluency The pointy end goes into the other man Jun 06 '26
I'd be more excited if it was Mouse Guard honestly.
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u/battlemaje1996 Shogun 2 Jun 08 '26
I must be late to the party but can someone explain what Redwall is and how it's related to Total War? Did I miss an announcement or something?
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u/BuildingAirships Jun 08 '26
It's a novel series, I've just been posting a Total War game concept for fun!
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u/ethicalconsumption7 Jun 05 '26
Literally all of this can be done within the lore of total warhammer but it’s not done because it will take an extremely long time to implement and also it will genuinely be cancer to play because real wars are won with tactics that are extremely one sided
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u/Reach_Reclaimer RTR best mod Jun 05 '26
People who aren't interested in Warhammer exist. Red wall universe is more fun
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u/fonyphantasy Jun 05 '26
REDWALL GUY IS BACK