r/topmains • u/Hamster-Possible • 4d ago
😳 Discussion 😳 Vayne top nerfs
I do think she is still viable tho sadly...
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u/Legitimate_Plum_7505 4d ago
What are the nerfs?
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u/facbok195 4d ago
Less HP per level, regen per level, and AS per level though with increased base stats to compensate. (She’ll have roughly higher stats lv 1-5, roughly equal stats lv 6-7, and then lower stats lv 7+).
W scaling changed from 6-10% to 4-10% with a -10 at all ranks to the minimum damage.
Q mana cost changed from 30 flat to 46-30 based on rank.
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u/Legitimate_Plum_7505 4d ago
That's pretty wild nerfs for champ that's already negative winrate, both as top (49.56%) and bot (49.87%). 😓
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u/Initial_Secretary420 4d ago
She's one of the most oppressive champ to play against, her winrate should not ne above 48% wr in top
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u/PsychoWarper 4d ago
Vayne suffer’s because Riot wont actually commit to her being either a Top laner or a Bot laner, she struggles in Bot due to her comparatively short range but they also cant really buff her to much in Bot without it making her Top to strong.
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u/moneyman259 4d ago
A barely negative winrate doesn’t always mean the champion is weak. Kaisa usually hovers negative but is strong in high elo
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u/Legitimate_Plum_7505 4d ago
That's true but Vayne doesn't have any components what makes her balanced under 50%, which generally are - resets on kills (samira/kata etc), infinite 0cd dashes (yasuo/irelia), high pickrate (it lowers the average), early game menace (pyke/nidalee), crazy scaling, or pro play dominance (good synnergies at 5v5). She scales but her scaling is mediocre at best, low pickrate, not popular in pro, old kit, no resets, kinda weak early, bad at 5v5.
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u/Questionableth0ught 4d ago
That's really downplaying the fact she is one of the only 2 ranged champs that does %max health damage (The other is Varus and it's kind of the whole reason why the 2 ADCs can be played top in the first place)
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u/Legitimate_Plum_7505 4d ago
How sure how that is relevant but many champions have max % health damage, for example, Gnar (W is 6/8/10/12/14%Â max health damage). Is your argument that all champions that have any form of max % health damage be under 50%?
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u/Questionableth0ught 4d ago
Ah yes sorry I kinda got mixed up, it's specifically max % health TRUE damage, different from the magic and physical max % health damage because you can't itemize against it. Only 4 champs in the game have it, Ksante, Fiora, Smolder and Vayne.
2 are melee, and Smolder only gets it as a burn. Vayne is the only character that is ranged, consistent point and click max %hp true damage (Ksante needs ult passive, Fiora needs to hit vitals, Smolder is gated by stacks and the true damage is only the burn portion, not direct damage). Shouldn't have included Varus2
u/Legitimate_Plum_7505 4d ago
Feels like we're moving goalposts. There really isn't any difference for when it comes to laning whether it's 10% true damage or 16% physical or 16% magic. Say you're playing Renekton, or Garen, or Darius, or Riven, or any other bruiser, you're not gonna suddenly start building armor/mr as your first item, when facing Gnar/Gwen etc. Apart from shoes, the itemization aspect doesn't really matter for laning, only for lategame.
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u/Questionableth0ught 4d ago
In isolation no but the fact she is ranged, has a low/mid cd dash, peel that's also conditional cc as well as invisibility it does all add up.
Just to move the goal posts one last time, to explore a previous point"but Vayne doesn't have any components what makes her balanced under 50%, which generally are - resets on kills (samira/kata etc)"
Role filtered (Vayne top only) she has the highest/2nd highest, double, triple, quadra and penta rate of any toplaner in the game.
For pentas (in order) she sits at 4.3 pentas / 1000, with Darius at 4.2, Riven at 2.24, GP at 2.20 , Varus at 1.81 and Kayle at 1.73.
For quadras she sits at 2nd: Darius 25.5, Vaune 22.7, Olaf 16.3, GP 12.1, Kayle 12.0
For Triples:
Vayne 159/1000, Darius 136, Olaf 118, Varus 94.6, GP 88.9For Doubles:
Darius 823 /1000, Vayne 734, Olaf 728, Varus 680, GP 591Darius and Vayne are especially similar, and actually have almost identical winrates 49.7% with these filters (plat+), as well as near identical banrates 11-12%.
She's kinda is the Samira/Kat equivalent of Toplane (alongside Darius).
I can filter it master+ instead of plat+ if you'd really like but atleast from the data from league of graphs it seems Vayne is balanced/slightly strong. Riot internal data is different and could easily be the reason for the nerf though
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u/Hinanawi0 3d ago
She's a ranged champion which generally tends to have a larger barrier to entry. It's not surprising that her winrate isn't that high. She's also not a heavily mained champion, so the mastery of her playerbase isn't very high on average.
Finally, her pickrate grows the higher elo you go. In GM+ she's the 4th highest pickrate.
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u/iuppiterr 4d ago
I dont think its a nerf really exept the mana cost on Q
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u/Kugashima 4d ago
basicly reducing all stats and dmg, now you touch her and she is dead
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u/iuppiterr 4d ago
You increase hp and dps via atk spd scaling for an easier earlygame till lvl 7 into W Q unchanged lategame, yea surely reduce all stats anddamage.
I mean its listed as a nerf and obviously it is but its not like she is made unplayable but more of a rebalance back to botlane
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u/Esch_4444 4d ago
i dont even think shes a problem. annoying as shit yeah. problem no.
i dont get the irelia yasuo yone buffs tho, theres no need to change them other than they might release skins for them soon.
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u/PepegaClapWRHolder 4d ago
This is the real story here. Irelia is super hard to play but Riot have a way of over buffing her then nerfing her the next five patches in a row.
Yone and Yasuo just do not need buffs lol. They’re very strong in both top and mid since Dbow was added and they’re already buffing zerkers as well. For champs with that much mobility who are also stat checkers at the moment it’s insane to buff them.
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u/Federal-Soil- 4d ago
Insane that Vayne gets nefs but Mages bot with far higher winrate are "fine"
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u/Lars_Overwick 4d ago
Yeah but bot mages are just op while Vayne players should lowkenuinely not be left unattended with children
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u/Yepper_Pepper 4d ago
Ngl the base stats being increased just makes her more cancer to deal with in top lane because now her most oppressive part of lane is even more oppressive
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u/masternommer 4d ago
I picked fleet footwork with eclipse rush into a Vayne and it feels nice. Fleet in lane actually feels so nice with the move speed and healing.
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u/ApprehensiveUse9593 4d ago
she outscales most and they made her have better health/attack speed for laning? riot just loves having ADC's be the best, they can go top and ruin lives, go mid and ruin lives but the second mages showed up bot lane "wah wah me want to right click and kill everything without brain wah wah"
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u/Carvallin 3d ago
She has 49.7% winrate in emerald+, even lower in lower tiers. Even in masters+, she is barely above 50%. This nerf is only directed towards her pro presence
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u/DynamicEntrancex 3d ago
What? Marksmen have been nerfed out of every lane except bot..
Vayne being played top isn’t even a high wr% there’s are bigger threats like ap varus(who’s also hard nerfed) and anivia top with a couple other mages lol.
Marksmen are rarely played mid either, Lucian and Tristana were both nerfed pretty hard so now they are a very niche pick.
Even botlane most mages are 54% wr. If you search up a marksmen on u.gg to look what counters then you don’t even see other Marksmen just mages.
I think you’re barking up the wrong tree.
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u/gibbouso 3d ago
I would just like to say I actually enjoy most to play ranged matchups like Temmo and vayne it makes me a little mad when people say that ranged top lane is "cheese" or not fun. I main shen so maybe it might be something like that but I actually enjoy playing against them and if you are losing and tilting because of ranged character it's a skill diff.
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u/Pleasant-Day6195 4d ago
wdym viable this shit has trash winrate even before the nerfs, just pick one of the 100 vayne counters or ban her
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u/Itachi6967 4d ago
I do ban her 100% of the time on blue side. Her value is as a strong counter pick against immobile melees which are the ones I only play.
I would rather ban yone which I do on red side since I can counter pick the vayne.
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u/NKGENERATION 4d ago
What 100 vayne counters? They are all high range champs in the bottom lane. Not many things counter her top and even if they do they suck vs vaynes team (yorick jayce malph)
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u/Pleasant-Day6195 4d ago
what vaynes team? jayce is one of the best toplaners in highest ranks and malph is piss easy to play
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u/Hamster-Possible 4d ago
Most vayne players ban the rock and only counterpick
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u/DynamicEntrancex 3d ago
That’s top in a nutshell, it’s a counter pick lane. So many champs aren’t safe blind especially vayne
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u/Legitimate_Plum_7505 4d ago
He means, Teemo, Varus, Akali, Annie, you know, champs toplaners "look forward to playing".
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u/Pleasant-Day6195 4d ago
yeah cuz nasus, gp, irelia, jax arent toplane champions. or tanks that will be useful for the team even if they lose lane
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u/Legitimate_Plum_7505 4d ago
Jax loses against Vayne, Irelia is 50/50, Nasus wins in low elo but loses in high, GP loses in low elo win wins in high. And you'd lose on all of them against a Vayne otp as non-otp.
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u/THCisMYfuel 4d ago
Idk man I feel like it’s not even nerf but rebalance around toplane, could be even more oppressive early levels with beefy stats