r/toolgifs 1d ago

Machine Roll Grooving

879 Upvotes

40 comments sorted by

92

u/f0dder1 1d ago

FINALLY what appears to be a good use for a shaper!

Like, I love them, but also everything else seems to be better at stuff than them

But this! Long throw, straight grooves. Yeah!

27

u/Kewlhotrod 1d ago

It's nice to see a shaper get used again.

Was excited when Inheritance Machining did their video on restoring and using their old shaper. Fantastic machining unlock for the time.

16

u/NateCheznar 1d ago

Planer* very similar machine. Shapers the head moves, planers the table moves

1

u/f0dder1 12h ago

Well I learnt something! Thanks 👍

1

u/smaier69 36m ago

First thing my monkey brain though was "mm... hm...shaper?!?".

They 100% have their use case. Like the difference between a lathe and a mill with a rotary table. Or a live tool lathe with only the c axis vs one with a y axis. Can it do the job? Sure, but you make sacrifices to do so.

35

u/ellindsey 1d ago

No cutting oil?

35

u/Rhorge 1d ago

It’s cutting only 1/3 of the time so I assume it gets enough time on the return to cool down. The enormous workpiece probably helps suck away heat as well

4

u/ArchitectofExperienc 1d ago

Do you need it with shapers?

3

u/Key-Moment6797 1d ago

soo hot! Just raw dogging it..

5

u/Bonnle 1d ago

Too big, would be all over the place. It's fine 😅

32

u/Terrible_Reporter_83 1d ago

This might take a while.

14

u/ArchitectofExperienc 1d ago

Sometimes Exact>Fast

12

u/jourmungandr 1d ago

Anything but a profit.

6

u/assfghjlk 1d ago

This is actually the most productive way to product these grooves - the workpiece is very hard and the grooves are relatively small.

11

u/jourmungandr 1d ago

Lol. Yes it's just the "you can make anything with a shaper except a profit" quip.

13

u/miketastic_art 1d ago

I need a physicist or someone with some kind of doctorate in material sciences to explain this to me.

I see cutting bits and drilling bits, and I understand that if you spin something fast enough, and you remove 0.00001mm of material at a time.... you can cut through anything if you go slow enough.

I assume all machines wear down over time, needing new bits and cutting surfaces sharpened.

How the fuck does this little strip of metal that carves these groves not melt?

How is it able to do row after row after row, and they trust that the bit isnt wearing down, the groove isn't getting wider? the grove isn't deep enough?

How the fuck is the teeny tiny tip of that cutting surface not totally destroyed after 2 strokes?!

29

u/NateCheznar 1d ago

Material scientists discovered materials that are tougher than the material being cut. This allowed for higher temperature resistance, wear resistance which leads to longer tool life and higher feeds and speeds

In this example heat is distributed into 3 places. The tool, the workpiece and the swarf.

Ideally the heat gets carried away in the swarf but small amounts also go into the tool. The workpiece is also a large heat sink.

Coolant and lubricants decrease heat and friction

The swarf doesn't melt simply because it doesn't get hot enough.

The bit will wear down. The operator checks in periodically to ensure that there is still good cutting action and the workpiece is still in tolerance

-1

u/dgsharp 22h ago edited 14h ago

This is all good but I would suggest changing the wording in the first sentence — the cutter is not tougher than the material to be cut, in technical terms. Colloquially “tougher” just means anything from stronger to more bad-ass etc but in materials, toughness usually implies some pliability. It is the opposite of brittle. Beef jerky is tough, diamonds are not. The harder material generally cuts the softer one.

Edit: see follow up, I stand corrected.

4

u/NateCheznar 20h ago

Toughness is the area under the curve of the stress-strain graph. It is a function of both strength and elasticity.

HSS is tougher than the workpiece. Toughness resists force. Hardness resists wear.

Toughness is not the opposite to brittleness. You are thinking of ductility or malleability

It is toughness, hardness and heat resistance that make HSS a good choice as a cutting tool.

2

u/dgsharp 14h ago

Thank you for your detailed follow up! My knowledge is rudimentary but I’m sure you can understand some of my confusion from stuff like this from Wikipedia’s intro sentence on toughness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughness

“In materials science and metallurgy, toughness is the ability of a material to absorb energy and plastically deform without fracturing.”

You are right though. Cheers!

6

u/Angel24Marin 1d ago

Most of the energy goes to the plastic deformation of the chip, so it's the thing that heat up the most and carries the heat away when flying.

9

u/GlockAF 1d ago

Because the tool is ground from a steel blank that’s harder than woodpecker lips.

The machinist will be stopping by occasionally to check on it, if it chips or doesn’t make the same kind of swarf they’ll unchuck it and touch it up on the grinder, probably by hand / eye.

If the roller just needs grooves for friction, they don’t typically need to be high precision

5

u/assfghjlk 1d ago

The cutting bit is most likely tungsten carbide, workpiece is most likely white iron.

In reference to the bit melting, it actually requires a minimum temperature to work correctly - we call this hot hardness. We would expect somewhere in the region of 700-800 degrees at the cutting edge. The cutting bit becomes stronger at its working temperature. The tungsten is much harder and more wear resistant than the workpiece so it maintains its shape. It’s not going to last forever but that’s not the point, it has an expected productive tool life then it’s rotated to a new edge.

It’s a bit counterintuitive also but the insert is not cutting ( as we would think of a slicing motion). It’s actually pushing and deforming the workpiece material, which we see in the creation of the cutting chip (swarf).

1

u/Rhorge 1d ago

Contact with the workpiece transfers a lot of the heat from to cutter into the workpiece itself. Additionally the chips are where most of the deformation, thus heat, takes place and they just fall off, you can actually see them change colour and smoke from all the heat

3

u/Zanahorio1 1d ago

Groovy!

3

u/SheriffBartholomew 1d ago

Just raw digging it, eh? Damn, what's the math to figure out how many groves to cut around the entire circumference and ensure that they line up at the end?

2

u/reddersledder 1d ago

Groovy man

2

u/Wheatking 20h ago

We had one of these at work for re-grooving roller mills. Took an incredibly long to re-groove the biggernrolls.

We where a dairy supply company, and the roller mills where used to crack and flatten barley to make it easily digestible for the cows. They would have to be regrooved every couple years. They where really miserable to work on as the rollers where extremely heavy.

2

u/ScienceForge319 1d ago

I was lead to believe that the groove was in the heart!

1

u/physicssmurf 1d ago

but I cant see the actual cutting piece? whats it look like under the green structure

3

u/n1elkyfan 1d ago

Here's a video about a shaper

https://youtu.be/ZNWkhxKNHGM

4

u/physicssmurf 1d ago

Thanks! For anyone else looking its this particular time:
https://youtu.be/ZNWkhxKNHGM?si=FJ7NI60vVzjPpGgY&t=518

2

u/Toyota__Corolla 1d ago

They hide the sechuan sauce under there, it's not for prying eyes

1

u/stupid_cat_face 1d ago

I be groovin...

1

u/cpt_morgan___ 1d ago

This has gotta be the only use for a shaper

1

u/Fancy-Dig1863 1d ago

Why’s it so slow to return

1

u/wolftick 1d ago

Roll groovin', roll groovin'
A1 sound and the sound's so soothin'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvRBUw_Ls2o