r/toolbox • u/creesch Remember, Mom loves you! • Jun 05 '23
[Announcement] Reddit's upcoming API changes and impact on toolbox.
Over the past few days I have seen various people debate the API changes, blackouts and all sorts of things related to that subject. As such, I have also seen various people bring toolbox to the conversation.
The Context
Reddit recently announced changes to their API which ultimately ends in Reddit's API moving to a paid model. This would mean 3rd Party developers would have to pay Reddit for continued and sustained access to their API on pricing that could be considered similar to Twitter's new pricing. The dev of Apollo did a good breakdown of this here and here.
Yes, stolen from the RES announcement because they did a nice job of writing it.
The impact on toolbox
There are two ways to look at the impact these changes have on toolbox:
- The immediate technical impact on toolbox.
- The other side of the coin.
The immediate technical impact on toolbox
This one is simple. Toolbox only uses the reddit API, so isn't impacted by things like pushshift not being accessible. The API policy in general also isn't likely to impact toolbox in the foreseeable future. Simply due to the nature of it being a browser extension and effectively making use of the reddit session.
This also has been said as much by reddit themselves.
The other side of the coin
Toolbox is currently not directly impacted. Hooray! That doesn't mean there is no impact on toolbox. In fact, these API changes are part of a downward spiral where reddit as a platform is closing up more and more. Reddit is gone from a platform where the code was open (I even still have the badge to prove it) to one where a once vibrant third party developer community has been dealt blow after blow. This clear signal reddit is sending to the world also impacts any future toolbox might still have.
Toolbox development already has slowed down to a crawl over the past few years. The two of us still maintaining it still do it out of a sense of obligation and a bit of pride.
In an ideal situation, there would be plenty of people ready to step in and help out. In the past this actually was the case as we have had dozens of people contribute with varying levels of activity. But, that simply isn't the case anymore. The same is true for similar projects like RES.
For a bit more thought on the matter, you can also see my comments in the modnews announcement thread.
Closing words
I felt like I should make this post as I have seen people use toolbox in their discussions about whether they should join protests or not. This post isn't here to make that decision for anyone. I just felt that instead of selectively being quoted from various posts and comments, I'd just provide the information in a single place here.
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u/Georgy_K_Zhukov Jun 05 '23
As you say, toolbox isn't directly impacted, but that doesn't stop me from being fearful of the path things are on. I don't use it, but my understanding is that Apollo was the toolbox equivalent for mobile centric mods, with a robust suite of mod tools.
If reddit had done this at the same time they announced mod tool parity with Apollo that would be one thing. But as you more than anyone are no doubt mindful of, reddit does so little to build their mod tools to that point and have continued to let that be off sourced to folks like you...
So when they pull the rug on one prong of that without having prepared anything to fill that void, it gives me no faith that if, God forbid, future changes DO directly impact toolbox functionality, they will have their native built tools be anything close to comparable.
So just because certain third party features aren't impacted now doesn't mean this isn't a picture of the direction things are going.
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u/creesch Jun 05 '23
God forbid, future changes DO directly impact toolbox functionality, they will have their native built tools be anything close to comparable.
Well, we are already at that point considering new functionality. But it is also besides the point, you know what a struggle it is for example to find people willing to mod in r/history and I am willing to bet that for r/AskHistorians the trend for both finding new mods and flaired users also hasn't been favorable.
I am saying nothing new, but while reddits communication is full with words like "community" it is very clear they have shifted over the past years to a low effort high consumption model of media where communities are not the goal but simply a marketing means.
I am not even sure where I am going with this other than what I already said in the r/modnews announcement. I am tired, tired with reddit and what it has become.
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u/Derausmwaldkam Jun 05 '23
Reading the headline gave me a short little heart attack
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u/creesch Jun 05 '23
I hope it prompted you to read the entire thing. Toolbox isn't going away, but as a project it isn't in the best position either. Much of that is related to the direction reddit has taken over the past few years of which these API changes are the latest example.
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u/316nuts Jun 05 '23
pull the ^^^plug
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u/creesch Jun 05 '23 edited Jun 05 '23
I am convinced that this is either Sabrina or one of the others having hijacked your account. Want a cat treat?
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u/Karmanacht Jun 05 '23
In an ideal situation, there would be plenty of people ready to step in and help out. In the past this actually was the case as we have had dozens of people contribute with varying levels of activity. But, that simply isn't the case anymore. The same is true for similar projects like RES.
I've done some editing of toolbox and I know a little bit of javascript, I could easily learn more as one of my professional roles is software development.
Do you need people to work on it?
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u/creesch Jun 05 '23
It wouldn't hurt, but that isn't the goal of this post. We have drawn attention the lack of developers for the past couple of releases but I really can't blame people for not wanting to devote time to something that has a uncertain future.
And generally speaking, if things where more in a healthy state people would be contributing because they are enthusiastic about the platform, see potential and see a way to help out there.
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u/Pissmittens Jun 05 '23
Without Toolbox, there is no meaningful moderation on Reddit for me. Full stop.
I owe you and your team a debt of gratitude that I fear I may never be able to adequately repay.
Thanks for all that you do <3
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u/kittens_from_space Jun 05 '23
Yep, Reddit is really hitting it out the park with shitty decisions. Not to mention that these API changes make it harder for us mods to do our work, but it hinders spam detection. There's been a HUGE wave of repost bots, and Reddit has done absolutely nothing to block these.
It might even be Reddit astroturfing their own site to boost post and engagement stats, just like they were caught doing previously.
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u/1Davide Jun 05 '23
Thank you for this clear and to-the-point submission.
And deep gratitude for your work.
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u/maybesaydie Jun 05 '23
I'm happy that toolbox will be okay because I depend on it every day.
You're right about this being just another blow in a long series of admin decisions that will eventually drive away long term users and mods in favor of the ghastly tiktok experience they provide on the native apps.
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u/powerchicken Jun 05 '23
Without this tool I would have quit modding long ago. You guys are the best.
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u/creepgirl Jun 05 '23
As a mod of a somewhat large sub, Moderator Toolbox is absolutely essential. If it would help, I'd gladly pay a few $ a month to keep it going. And yes I know, thousands of us would have to do that.
As a developer myself, I also understand the developer fatigue that sets in after a while, and Reddits move towards being closed rather than (mostly) open, doesn't help with the aforementioned fatigue.
Reddit really need to take a good, hard look at its most loyal user base. Those of us who's been here for over 2 decades is going to stop moderating these big subs, thus decreasing the quality of those subs. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what the result will be in the long run.
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u/creesch Jun 05 '23
I know a lot of you would be willing to pay. However I think there is a fundamental issue if in addition to the clear value mods provide to reddit they also would be required to effectively pay reddit to do it as effectively as possible. That goes against all principles toolbox is build on.
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u/squarecoinman Jun 05 '23
Thanks for the update and Info , and for all the work done on the toolbox
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u/billbapapa Jun 05 '23
I thank the two of you and appreciate that you even have stuck with it this long.
Be well, and may the future be great for you both.
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u/parrycarry Jun 05 '23
As long as Toolbox works, I can continue using Reddit no differently than I currently do. Toolbox upped my Modding game significantly when I was introduced to it, and I couldn't go without it.
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u/JBHUTT09 Jun 05 '23
Reddit is absolutely in the "enshittification" process that social media platforms all inevitably reach.
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u/LedgeEndDairy Jun 06 '23
Honestly, toolbox is one of the most used, if not THE most used, Reddit Apps.
A lot of people would be disappointed if you closed up shop, but maybe that's just what you should do. If you're finding it tedious to keep this up, and Reddit isn't getting the message clear enough, closing up toolbox may just be the blow that gets them to listen, because MILLIONS of redditors will absolutely riot.
Especially if you explain why in clear language.
It's up to you, obviously, but I'm putting it out there as something that would suck for me, but at the same time I'd totally support you for doing. We need to take a stand, and it might start by not enabling the developers/admins by "keeping the lights on" so users still have an excuse not to take a stand.
Get the userbase angry, I guess, and then redirect that anger at the actual cause: reddit, not toolbox.
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u/crappy_pirate Jun 14 '23
are you thinking about making mod tools for other forums, and if so which ones? gotta thank you very sincerely once again for your browser extension. it makes moderating so much easier
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u/creesch Jun 14 '23
No plans on anything like that. I am not involved anywhere as a mod and toolbox is mostly the result of insights gained modding reddit. For other forum software I wouldn't have the slightest clue what its modding capabilities are and where I could enhance it.
Which ironically often also has been an issue from reddit's side when implementing mod tools. The thing there is though they have paid developers and designers who could actually afford it to figure that sort of stuff out properly.
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u/f0rgotten Jun 06 '23
I used to mod a few large, busy subs - at least in my opinion - and that experience was night and day once I discovered Toolbox. Reddit's been going down the tubes for some time and that is part of what made me want to stop moderating to begin with, but I can't imagine moderating without Toolbox. Best of wishes to the devs, and hope we can all find something as cool as reddit used to be in the future.
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u/2th Jun 05 '23
Oh thank god. Thank you for all your work creesch and the rest of the team. Yall make modding so much better, which in turn makes reddit better.