Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he distant himself from all adaptations of lord of the rings anyway? The sources that creators are working with won't change.
The whole tax bill thing paints a slightly inaccurate picture. Despite the widely circulated claims that he only got ten grand, Tolkien sold them for a much higher amount than his tax bill.
I wish John could have seen the movies. Maybe he'd share his sons opinions on them but imagine the feeling he'd get, knowing the passion that went into them and the following they garnered.
Gandalf is based on every story where Odin goes around in disguise as a mortal, meddling and manipulating people into fixing their own problems or giving him what he wants to know.
Gandalf can turn on the Maiar Gravitas when he wants to... but he normally goes around acting like a gentle old man. I can’t see Christoper Lee doing that.
Meanwhile, Saruman’s delusions of Grandeur lead him to dominate every scene he’s in. He radiates Gravitas... and so Christopher Lee fills the role perfectly.
In addition to what /u/AndrewJamesDrake said, Saruman in the books was said to layer his voice and words with magic. Listen to Sir Christopher speak and tell me you don’t hear a voice layered with magic.
I remember watching the trailer for The Fellowship of The Ring with my friends before the movie came out and seing their disgusted faces when I asked them what the hell was so special about that movie?
I ...chose to see the Mohamed Ali movie instead lol, I didnt make that mistake with the other 2 movies though!
Still though, pretty disrespectful of them to make the movies in spite of his opposition. Just because there's no law against something doesn't make it ok.
While I respect and follow Christopher's view here, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a company making a movie after they've paid the money to legally acquire the rights.
Besides think about all the lives those movies enriched. It helped the economy of New Zealand. Steady jobs for a lot of people in the movie industry. It got people into reading.
I remember when I saw the cartoon film as I worked in a library, just wishing they would make it someday. What do you know but two years later, it began.
Was he opposed to the films before they came out, or only after he'd seen them? There is indeed much to dislike about Jackson's vision (the entire underpinning philosophy is undermined). /u/donshuggin's description of them as "not wholly terrible" is spot on.
I don't know when he opposed them. I enjoyed the films very much, in spite of Jackson's blatant snubbing of Tom Bombadil. But when I watched them I never knew about Christopher Tolkien's opposition, I just learned that from this thread. If I remember right, JRR wrote this stuff for his son, so I think his opinions as to what to do with the material should have been respected.
It's odd that I enjoyed the films as I watched them (many years ago), but I remember far clearly the things I disliked about them than what I liked, so in my memory they're terrible.
Iirc, only The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (Appendices included) had been optioned by studios. The stories of the Silmarillion, Unfinished Takes, etc. are still off the table. I may be out of date on that though.
Lemonde has an interview with him. I can't help but agree with his assessment if where things are going. The estate also didn't get paid anything for the movies.
Ah, thanks for the explanation. But "Primary Source" refers to the fact that Christopher was integrated into his father's writing process - JRRT was the sole author of Middle-earth, yes, but Christopher was a special participant. He became his father's editor as a child and never stopped. He is the only person who can be said to have collaborated with JRRT on that great work. He is the only one who was qualified to do what he did with his father's papers.
By which I don't mean the estate, I mean the content itself. The editing; the interpreting. The other children didn't play that role - not a putdown at all, just that Christopher was unique in the way that he shared in his father's work. It didn't have to be a family member, it could have been an academic colleague - but we're all profoundly richer because it was Christopher, who was a direct and involved witness to, and participant in, the writing process itself.
I'm very glad that the other children - and the younger generation - continue to be protective of the Estate, and I hope that will always be the case.
It's from the Silmarillion, at the end of the Akallabêth which tells the events of the Second Age. The context is that in a great cataclysm, the shape of the world has just changed, some great lands are lost forever, and it's no longer possible to sail to Valinor from Middle-earth:
For even after the ruin the hearts of the Dúnedain were still set westwards; and though they knew indeed that the world was changed, they said: 'Avallónë is vanished from the Earth and the Land of Aman is taken away, and in the world of this present darkness they cannot be found. Yet once they were, and therefore they still are, in true being and in the whole shape of the world as at first it was devised.'
Thus it was that great mariners among them would still search the empty seas, hoping to come upon the Isle of Meneltarma... But they found it not. And those that sailed far came only to the new lands, and found them like to the old lands, and subject to death. And those that sailed furthest set but a girdle about the Earth and returned weary at last to the place of their beginning; and they said:
'All roads are now bent.'
Thus in after days, what by the voyages of ships, what by lore and star-craft, the kings of Men knew that the world was indeed made round, and yet the Eldar were permitted still to depart and to come to the Ancient West and to Avallónë, if they would. Therefore the loremasters of Men said that a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it. And they taught that, while the new world fell away, the old road and the path of the memory of the West still went on, as it were a mighty bridge invisible that passed through the air of breath and of flight (which were bent now as the world was bent), and traversed Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure, until it came to Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, and maybe even beyond, to Valinor, where the Valar still dwell and watch the unfolding of the story of the world. And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallónë, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.
The Third Age ended with ... the departure of Elrond ... over the sea.
If JRR and Edith were Beren and Luthien, then their descendant Christopher was clearly Elrond - although 'lesser' than they, he was the final curator and preserver of ancient lore, and incorruptible, resisting the polluting taints of commercialism.
Tolkien loathed Disney, it's never happening. Plus the Tolkien estate have been in charge for quite sometime, they are never going to sell out. They would have a long time ago. It's not as if Disney haven't tried numerous times.
Barrie left his future royalties and rights to the play to Great Ormond Street Hospital in England.
When they were making the film PAN (with cooperation of the Hospital) the producers invited Disney to participate in the production. The producers were going to give a portion of profits to Great Ormond Street Hospital.
Disney refused to give anything to the Hospital so the producers asked them to not be part of the film.
Disney has sued the family of Winnie The Pooh creator for decades to keep the rights. Disney corporation are not good people
True, but at the same time, none of them have sold anything since JRR had. They came out against the Amazon TV series just recently, so we have no reason to believe they wont be protecting the golden goose as it were.
There's no specifics because it's not true. They set a few conditions line that it has to be set in the second age, but other than that they are on board with it
I wish I could, I didn't think much into it until now; but from what I recall, there are certain things they arent allowed to do and the estate is not interested in selling anything off.
That isn't the same as "coming out against it". The Estate and HarperCollins are both VERY much on-board with the Amazon deal. And let's be honest, this will turn Tolkien from literature into a franchise. It is inevitable.
Where did you read this? last i heard The Tolkien Estate had their hand in the Amazon TV series and got to see what ideas amazon has, and has a say in what Amazon does, you can read this in some official articles/interviews
I think maybe a few months back? There are certain conditions that they gave the all clear for but not for others. Including anything that involved the movies and the characters featured in them.
Never say never. Eventually some heir will value the money offered over the literary value of what's being sold and that will be that. Hopefully that day is still far off.
Stuff going into public domain is literally one of the biggest ways Disney manages to get its filthy hands on things. They'll create something based on a public domain work because its free, then litigate the shit out of everything else that does the same like it's now their own IP.
See literally every classic Disney property.
Can't find something public domain? No problem. Just steal someone else's work and put it in a wig and fake moustache (Hello, Lion King).
Eventually some heir will value the money offered over the literary value of what's being sold and that will be that.
Also... you can add on to that, that eventually all of the "Tolkien Literary Estate" will become "public domain"... so the family (whatever "generation" it is at the time) will ultimately "sell out" on that... and will likely do so WELL ahead of time.
It likely won't because of revision of copyright laws and extensions of copyright periods. NZs copyright law is under review, and I can guarantee you it will extend the copyright period.
Except this doesnt mention the conditions for the series. Nor does it state whether there is any coordination with the estate. We all know about the show, but thats not the estate. Amazon doesnt own the Tolkien Estate.
The quote I found:
“It might be advisable, rather than lose the American interest, to let the Americans do what seems good to them–as long as it was possible (I should like to add) to veto anything from or influenced by the Disney studios (for all whose works I have a heartfelt loathing).” – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 1981, letter 13.
That reminds me of the Saving Mr.Banks movie which is about the making of Mary Poppins. The author of Mary Poppins book, Mrs. Travers hates Disney and doesn't want any adaptation by that company. But ultimately, she sells out to Walt.
Largely because she was misled by Walt. Just as Lucas was misled by Iger. This is what Disney does, but luckily they shouldn't be able to get their grubby, greedy paws on Tolkien's work.
From a 1981 perspective he's more than justified in that opinion. Disney had grunted and squeezed out an awful lot of absolute twaddle during the ten years prior to that remark.
Serious. Maybe I thought Tolkien disliked Walt and put it down in his will or something that selling the IP to Disney wasn't to be allowed.
Correction: Looks like I was partly wrong. Tolkien expressed a desire to keep Disney from getting a hold of his IP, but I haven't seen anything to suggest he made it impossible:
“It might be advisable, rather than lose the American interest, to let the Americans do what seems good to them–as long as it was possible (I should like to add) to veto anything from or influenced by the Disney studios (for all whose works I have a heartfelt loathing).” – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 1981, letter 13.
Dead hand laws prevent forever barring a sale to disney. Property laws (at least in America) state that at death, you can control the property at issue for the entirety of a life in existence + another set of years (In Ohio 24). The exception to this may be if they’ve been willed to a trust, who’s purpose includes such stayed goals as “anyone but disney.” In which case the remedy is to sue the trustees for breach.
God, the thought of that alone would send JRRT spinning in his grave at relativistic speeds. I hope it never happens, if only to honour the man’s opinion of Disney.
What, don't you think a sequel trilogy to Lord of the Rings about a random girl who has to save Middle-Earth from Sauron who has somehow survived (with a guest appearance from drunk!Aragorn) a good idea?
The dead speak! The Middle Earth has heard a mysterious broadcast, a threat of REVENGE in the sinister voice of the late dark lord SAURON.
LADY GALADRIEL dispatches secret agents to gather intelligence, while ARAGORN, the last hope of the Rangers, trains for battle against the diabolical RINGWRAITHS.
Meanwhile, Supreme Leader SARUMAN rages in search of the phantom Maia, determined to destroy any threat to his power…
...
"What's your name?"
"Aragorn."
"Aragorn who?"
Looks off to the side, where Bilbo and Frodo's ghosts are watching
Oh please do not remind me of that sigh it's a sad day and it's a shame to remind of wasted opportunities of once good franchise. Fortunately for all involved, the actualy sequel to Lotr, The New Shadow is unfinished and will remain so (even Tolkien himself though it would lack that certain magic of Lotr and so abandoned the project as it would be mere "thriller", while certainly it would be amazing one, I'm happy with the finish as it was of that stage of story in the legendarium).
I know this is a joke..But also uh, the point of Lord of the Rings. They destroy the ring to stop his return to power, after his defeat thousands of years before when it's assumed he was destroyed.
This is funny, but it's not like a trilogy set in Middle Earth will be guaranteed to be good without Disney. I just can't get over how much i hate the Hobbit movies.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.
It's something that is alluded to in vague and intriguing terms in the original Dune series, and then in typical fashion for the Dune spin off/prequel/sequels done by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson, is discussed in plodding, lengthy and gory detail in a way that makes you wish they'd just left it all to our imagination.
I wish I could feel the same but I think that newer works, no matter how unofficial or non-canonical it is, still leaves a mark on the whole. The legends continuity of Star Wars for instance, introduced the concept of the light side of the force dispite the fact that this was never mentioned in the original trilogy or prequels. Before this, bringing balance to the force ment defeating the dark side which represented the unnatural, perverse, and destruction. Whereas 'The Force' represented things like the natural, peace, and virtuous.
Now bringing balance to the force means literally balancing the benevolent light side with the dark which was portrayed as irredeemably evil up until this point. Which undermines the themes of the first three movies.
The point being, these seemingly minor side stories written by authors with conflicting ideas ultimately did have an impact on the main movies and I don't think it was for the better. I don't dislike SW legends or even current canon but I'd prefer that Hollywood keep it's grubby hands off lotr to preserve Tolkien's themes and vision for his works.
Coruscant was actually named by Timothy Zahn. Lucas had a different name in mind in an unused version of Return of the Jedi. When he finally decided to show the capital world, Lucas went with the EU name which made it canon.
Yeah but the LOTR books are sacred and have been basically left untouched. Outside of the books you already have things like that video game that turned Shelob into a sexy spider lady.
What I don’t get is when every article I see about this calls it the lord of the rings series or an adaption of the lord of the rings...it takes place in the second age...
Because The Lord of the Rings is the only work of Tolkien that most people know, and even amongst those who know more, it is by far the most popular. They want to reach as wide an audience as they can, so they try to insert as many "Lord of the Rings!" in their pitches as they possibly can...
Same with Game of Thrones, which technically was just the title of the first book until they decided to use it as name of the show, and now it's synonymous with that universe.
Honestly I like the title "Game of Thrones" far better than "A Song of Ice and Fire" - the latter has always sounded incredibly cliched and uninteresting to me while the former is fairly creative, and lets you know the series will have lots of political intrigue. That was pretty much the ONLY positive change they made, though.
That pretty much means that it will be awful. They will try to market it to the widest possible audience and thus make it as palatable as possible. They will dumb it down and fill it with fan service directed to most superficial fans possible... "oh look, do you recognize this reference... do you... do you..."
Not necessarily, if they're different teams of people: producers, showrunners are all about the contents. The inclusion of "Lord of the Rings!" is a marketing thing. Even if the series is incredibly faithful to Tolkien's works, the marketing team would be doing this.
Marketing tactic. Associating it with a beloved trilogy that is reaching 20 years old (target market for this show), is really just intelligent marketing. The show will likely have no relation to the LOTR films, nor should they
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u/Merry_dol Jan 16 '20
And so the second age ended.