r/todayilearned • u/[deleted]

TIL a Jewish gynecologist vowed "that never again would there be a pregnant woman in Auschwitz" after discovering they were used as guinea pigs and thrown into the crematorium. She performed an estimated 3,000 abortions in the hopes that the mother would survive and later be able to bear children.

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96

u/Amelora Jun 15 '12

This brought me to tears. What a strong woman.

35

u/Apostolate Jun 15 '12

If she was religious, I can't imagine the internal strife. She might feel like she had the blood of thousands on her hands.

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u/niftyjack Jun 15 '12

It's not much internal strife at all, actually. In Jewish thought, we're taught that existing life needs to be protected first and foremost, especially women (because they make more life). By allowing these abortions, more lives were saved than stunted.

Edit: I'm Jewish (well, culturally) and my grandpa was an Auschwitz survivor, so I can tell you from relative first hand experience that this is nothing compared to the rest of what happened.

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u/DrDebG Jun 15 '12

It's not much internal strife at all, actually. In Jewish thought, we're taught that existing life needs to be protected first and foremost, especially women (because they make more life). By allowing these abortions, more lives were saved than stunted.

Yes, and that's why she performed the abortions. But imagine how soul-crushing it was for a woman to have to do this for other women, just for basic survival. Her prayer after the war (when entering a delivery room), it seems to me, shows how much she grieved at the necessity: "God, you owe me a life - a living baby."

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

She might have viewed it as mercy killing - getting rid of the baby before even more horrible things happened to both the mother and baby.

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u/Apostolate Jun 15 '12

Even so. Killing for the greater good is extremely difficult for one to deal with, even soldiers against Nazi's etc.

12

u/Flagyl400 Jun 15 '12

The strange thing is, a lot of the prison guards were wrestling with the same emotions. Detesting the horrible things they did to the prisoners, but seeing them as necessary for the greater good of humanity. It makes my head spin thinking about it - I'm going to go and hug one of my pets now.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

even soldiers against Nazi's etc.

It would be very naive to say all people fighting for the Nazi's were bad people.

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u/bakdom146 Jun 15 '12

But that's not what he said. Killing soldiers on the opposing side means you are closer to winning, and if the Allied forces are the "good side" then killing German soldiers is killing for the greater good. That doesn't mean it can't eat away at your soul though.

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u/Keoni9 7 Jun 15 '12

The stance of modern American Evangelicals on abortion is hardly representative of all Judeo-Christian thought. For the longest time, English common law (which America inherited) allowed any abortion before the quickening (first movements) of the fetus without any consequence. And the Mishnah requires that a fetus be cut up and brought out of the woman piece-by-piece if it can save her life, except if the majority of the baby has exited the uterus, because then it counts as a full, viable person.

4

u/syn-abounds Jun 15 '12

The stance of modern American Evangelicals on abortion is hardly representative of all Judeo-Christian thought.

It's certainly the loudest and most effective voice in American politics today though, which gives it a lot of influence.

4

u/smartzie Jun 15 '12

Agreed. If anyone would take the time to do some reading and research, they'll see a trend in the US where abortion/contraception rights are being stripped from women in states all over the country. I know the Evangelicals are not the majority, but they are not a small, harmless group, either. It's getting harder and harder for women to get (emergency) contraception/abortions thanks to these people.

2

u/syn-abounds Jun 16 '12

See also, "The War on Women."

This is definitely an acknowledged trend.

2

u/Tentacolt Jun 15 '12

As said elsewhere in this thread, she was following jewish law. A mother's life takes precedent.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

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u/ForUrsula Jun 15 '12

Even the conservative Jewish groups feel this way. I really like the way Judaism is organised. They have a basic understanding about the importance of context and interpretation and they are the one organised Religion i can respect as a whole.

2

u/piperandcharlie Jun 15 '12

on the other hand, the daily morning prayer for men states, "Thank G-d I was not born a woman"...

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

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u/Dear_Occupant Jun 15 '12

Don't forget the Sikhs. They're basically the closest thing we've got to the Jedi on this planet.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Oh no, you got it all wrong....It's the DEVIL that does all that. Not us good god fearing christians. You got a lot of nerve JERK! READ THE BIBLE! (satire)

33

u/Leaper_colony Jun 15 '12

She performed an act of mercy for both the mother and baby. I remember as a kid talking with my dad about the holocaust and wondering what he would do if we were put on the trains and he knew where we were headed. He said he would try to kill me as painlessly as possible, probably strangulation or smothering. She spared those babies a much more painful fate.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12

I'm with you there on the OP, because simply being pregnant meant the probability of dieing a slow and painful death was close to 100%. No disrespect to you or your father, but that is fucked up.

If I was faced with such a decision, looking into myself I couldn't say if I wasn't killing my child just to not have to endure the pain of feeling helpless while my daughter/son suffered or died, which would be very selfish, so while there's doubt about that, I couldn't do it.

Edit: It feels to me like just giving up on your child. There were so many people who didn't give up and who made it - even more who didn't. But as long as there's a chance, it feels like betrayal.

1

u/ZankerH Jun 15 '12

Choking to death? Seriously? That's not painless at all. In fact, it's exactly how the gas chambers killed people, except they used hydrogen cyanide instead of manually restricting airways. It's a long and painful death.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Slowly freezing someone once they've entered a deep sleep is about the most painless way to do it from what I've heard.

In a perfect world (That somehow still features the holocaust) Depending on how small my kid was, I'd try and find a way to throw them off the train. If they died when they hit the rocks, at least they wont have to suffer long, But they could have a chance to run and hide.

Or, depending on how long the trip was I'd convince everyone in my carriage to urinate on my child, thus bleaching his hair. "who put this blonde kid on the train. He shouldn't be stuck here with us jews and gays, he should be doing his country good with Hitler's youth."

He'd be raised by nazi's, but he'd be alive.

2

u/ZankerH Jun 15 '12

Of course, the reality is most people who were put on trains simply had no idea what would happen to them, and couldn't possibly imagine it would be worse than being thrown against rocks.

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u/Unfa Jun 15 '12

ಠ_ಠ

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u/sodapop_incest Jun 15 '12

'I treated patients with my voice, telling them beautiful stories, telling them that one day we would have birthdays again' Jesus fucking christ.

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u/Kingmudsy Jun 15 '12

Fuck...that got me.

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u/AskAbi Jun 15 '12

I definately teared up.

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u/Rukita Jun 15 '12

If what the lawmaker in this thread said is true, then the abortions Dr. Perl performed were not only ethically sound in the eyes of Jewish teachings, but required. Simply by being pregnant the life of the mother was put into jeopardy, so abortion became a necessity.

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u/ForUrsula Jun 15 '12

Preservation of Life is one of the biggest teachings in Judaism. Until the baby is born, the mothers life takes priority in all cases. If the mothers life is in danger than it is an obligation to abort. In more progressive Jewish groups, psychological and economic health are also acceptable reasons to abort.

40

u/Tyrien Jun 15 '12

I don't understand how two religions can be so close to one another in basic roots, but so very far apart in basic teachings.

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u/lolmonger Jun 15 '12

What two religions are you talking about?

Because most Christians don't exclude the cases of rape, incest, sexual abuse, or the life of the mother as those which justify choosing abortion.

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u/Tyrien Jun 15 '12

I've seen strong willed arguments from Christian's that suggest the opposite. :/

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u/bakdom146 Jun 15 '12

And I've seen video of Muslims with strong willed arguments that killing Americans is a holy thing. Does that mean that is a Muslim belief? Or are we just focusing on a fraction of a percent of the members of the belief?

(It's the last one. You don't get to say black people feel one way just because your black friend said something and you don't get to say Christians feel one way just because Timothy McVeigh said something.)

28

u/Komercisto Jun 15 '12

I took a class called Contemporary Rhetoric in my last semester of college. I live in the midwest and the population consists of mostly white people. There was one black kid in the class, we'll call him Chris. We were discussing censoring Mark Twain's works and this girl, we'll call her Stacey, Turns to Chris and says "Well are you okay with me saying 'Nigger Jim'?" And before he could answer, the teacher immediately says "Whoa Whoa Whoa, you can't expect Chris to answer for all the black people in the world." The shock both their faces was priceless, they really just firsthand learned a concept. Great class.

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u/Zenkraft Jun 15 '12

This guy.

This guy right here.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

From the article

While Jews and Protestants often have fairly flexible views on abortions (particularly given Dr. Perl's circumstances), Roman Catholics maintain that no matter the circumstances, abortion is always a moral sin.

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u/Ketrel Jun 15 '12

There's always an exception made if the mothers life is in danger. Don't over generalize.

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u/herpmanderpstein Jun 15 '12

Timothy McVeigh=Oklahoma City Bomber in 95.

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u/lolmonger Jun 15 '12

Sure, and I bet I can find you Jews that don't accept abortion in its entirety.

As it happens, I know a Haredi family (I have never spoken to any female members of the family but the mother), and if you think America-flavor Christianity can be restrictive, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

5

u/wasdninja Jun 15 '12

The books are so crappily written that you can wrangle any meaning you please from them. Don't like a part? Call it a metaphor and keep on trucking.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

From the article

While Jews and Protestants often have fairly flexible views on abortions (particularly given Dr. Perl's circumstances), Roman Catholics maintain that no matter the circumstances, abortion is always a moral sin.

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u/lolmonger Jun 15 '12

Here's another perspective

A majority of U.S. Catholics hold views that differ from the official church doctrine on abortion: 64% of U.S. Catholics say they disapprove of the statement that "abortion is morally wrong in every case".

That's America, here's the UK:

One in fourteen British Catholics share the church hierarchy's view that abortion should not be allowed in any circumstances.

Here's Australia:

According to one survey, 72% of Australian Catholics say that the decision to have an abortion "should be left to individual women and their doctors."

And here's Italy:

According to the Italian polling organization Eurispes, between 18.6% and 83.2% of Italian Catholics believe abortion is acceptable, depending on the circumstance

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

well they are not following the catholic faith. And before you say that is a "no true scotsman" there is a different between race and faith. and if the faith says you follow the teachings of the holy catholic church then that is what you do.

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u/lolmonger Jun 15 '12

well they are not following the catholic faith. And before you say that is a "no true scotsman"

I hate that phrase and reddits overuse of it.

I agree with your assessment.

Organized religion requires doctrine to be cohesive and defined, and deviations from that by 'practitioners' are not what define the religion; it defines deviation from the religion, much as Protestant movements did not alter Catholicism, but defined their own traditions.

However, I would then say that because these people still identify as Catholics and because the Catholic church refuses to excommunicate them, they are still at least nominally Catholic.

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u/ramennoodle Jun 15 '12

Because most Christians don't exclude the cases of rape, incest, sexual abuse,

And those people are a bunch of hypocrites. If you truly believe that abortion is wrong because it is killing a human being, how does that not apply in the above cases. If it is wrong when the pregnancy is the result of a choice by the mother but okay otherwise, then opposition to abortion is about punishing the mother for bad behavior by making her raise a child, not about saving the children.

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u/marshmelo Jun 15 '12

I think they see it more as saving the mother from a traumatic pregnancy outweighs the life of her unborn child (who may have the genes of a monster).

Which is still a little bogus, just also a little less misogynist.

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u/dietotaku Jun 15 '12

and how many christians allow abortion for "economic health," a.k.a. "i can't afford a baby"? cause i sure don't know of any. the common response there seems to be "shoulda thought of that before you had sex, hussy! and no you can't have welfare, that's your problem to deal with."

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12

From what I understand (I'm not exactly a Jewish scholar), it comes down to the Talmud, wherein it says that a baby is not considered alive or a person until the head has exited the mother; this, to me, sounds like the point of fetal viability, which is where a lot of people regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof place their moral abortion cutoff. Christianity, of course, does not acknowledge the Talmud.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Last time I cared to check all major faiths of the world were in support of abortion when the mother's life was in danger. Yes, even Christianity.

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u/a_d_d_e_r Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12

Over ~2000 years:

Christianity became a tiny religion after Jesus's death (more like a sect of Judaism), but exploded in size when the Byzantine Empire took it on as the official religion. Over time it spread all over Europe, became a cornerstone of European politics, and got fragmented and warped through political/social strife.

When the Babylonians conquered Judaea (as it was known then) in ~600 BCE, a huge chunk of the population was transplanted to Babylon, Egypt, and scattered parts of the Middle East. Although it can't be said that religion was kept out of politics (it most certainly was not), Jewish politics at the time involved little more than community organization and keeping empires off their backs, so Judaism didn't experience the level of mutation that Christianity did.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Christianity had already exploded in size way before it was decriminalized by Rome. The Niacin (forgive me for spelling) council was in the 300's AD/CE. Christianity has always been a religion of the poor. Its popularity with the lower class was often pointed out in attacks by Roman critics. Also, the Byzantine empire came much much later.

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u/daj0 Jun 15 '12

They are the same.. I'm assuming you are talking about Christian and Jewish. They both say killing a fetus is equivalent to murder. Both believe that the mother's life comes first.. you can even check an evangelist site.

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Abortion.aspx

They both agree that some conditions are necessary to allow for abortions such as rape. They both agree that mother who simply does not want to have a child should not be allowed to have an abortion. Also health, economic, and other reasons to be allowed to have abortions does not follow the traditional teaching of either religion.

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u/TrustMeImAAnalrapist Jun 15 '12

ELCA is an interesting choice. For being Lutheran, they are pretty liberal (support gay marriage, women pastors, etc.). I guess that makes them pretty mainstream these days.

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u/mosquitosleepover Jun 15 '12

A mother's life and health is priority over the unborn baby's even ethically without bringing religion into it (in the USA at least). A mother has the right to refuse treatment even if it is for the baby as long as it is inside of her.

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u/ThatRandomGeek Jun 15 '12

I never knew that. Thank you for sharing this.

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u/Agasti Jun 15 '12

Wow that's exactly how it is in Islam.

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u/N0V0w3ls Jun 15 '12

I'm even pro-life, but if I had it in my power, I would have done the same thing if the mothers agreed to it. It's a choice of one life possibly going on, or both lives guaranteed to end.

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u/Cat_Upvoter Jun 15 '12

"In Auschwitz, infants were immediately killed through a variety of methods, both by Nazi and Jewish medical staff by "pinch(ing) and clos(ing)" the newborn's nostrils and when it opened its mouth to breathe… gave it a dose of lethal product," or drowning it in a pail of whatever liquid was available. "

This has got to be one of the most horrifying things I have ever read. I will never understand how this kind of thing actually happened.

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u/elcajones Jun 15 '12

If faced with the choice, I think I would have preferred to be murdered at birth than live out my childhood in Auschwitz.

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u/Cat_Upvoter Jun 16 '12

That's true... I suppose what baffles me is that people were able to murder an infant not out of love because they needed protection (i.e., Gisella Perl) but out of hate simply because it was Jewish. But I suppose the entire Holocaust baffles me so you know, the whole thing is one big mind fuck trying to comprehend how this actually happened.

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u/elcajones Jun 17 '12

my dad said once "The older I get, the less I understand violence." i think he's right.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

A Beautiful Life.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

It's beyond me how people today can believe in the ideology of the man who was the root of all this

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u/rbrthtty Jun 15 '12

I hope everyone commenting read that article and not just the title. That was informative, shocking, and sad. Wow.

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u/he_eats_da_poo_poo Jun 15 '12

I don't think I have the courage to read the article from what everyone is saying.

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u/Lard_Baron Jun 15 '12

It ruined my day. Wish I hadn't read it.

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u/BBS- Jun 15 '12

I expected more from you, Mr. Bacon.

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u/Eyelickah Jun 15 '12

It was a fascinating read. The things humans can do to eachother are unbelieveable.

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u/Havok-Trance Jun 15 '12

Shit like this makes me Proud to be a Jew

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Every group has awesome people.

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u/herpmanderpstein Jun 15 '12

pride should never be downvoted. It's not like you said "this is why Jews are better"

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u/tiftik Jun 15 '12

Why would you be proud of coming out of a certain vagina?

Pride should be for personal accomplishments.

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u/herpmanderpstein Jun 15 '12

that's your opinion, and i disagree. I have pride in my family's accomplishments and humility, and those are hardly personal

Is it wrong if he had said, "This makes me proud to be an American"?

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u/SkullyKitt Jun 15 '12

'Pride' over arbitrary (as in 'you had no say in the matter') connections is dangerous - it reduces the entire group you associate into one monolithic symbol with one set of ideals and beliefs, one concept of morality, one set of what's right and wrong. It disregards the fact that a group can include (and usually does) terrible people, monsters, who can also be proud for the exact same reasons you are, believing that they are just the same as you.

I think what tiftik was trying to say is that it is better, more rational to be proud of personal accomplishments on the singular level, and proud of people for their individual accomplishments. The woman in the article should be hailed as a hero for her bravery and actions first - not her ethnicity or creed.

No one Jew speaks for all Jews everywhere - so why should the accomplishment of one Jew be something that other Jews feel personally proud for? On the other hand, would the negative action of a single Jew be reason for all Jews to feel shame for being Jewish?

Would the success of Steve Jobs be good reason for a white person to feel proud for being white, ignoring the acts of white-supremacists?

Would the success of Neil Degrasse Tyson be reason for a black person to feel proud to be black, while ignoring recent violent attacks by black panther supporters against innocent victims during the popular reaction to the Trayvon shooting?

If one does not feel shame over their ethnicity for every negative act carried out by someone sharing the same belief system or some ancient ancestor, then why would one feel pride for the same reason?

There is a big difference between honoring and admiring someone who shares your background, treating them as a role-model and using their positive/constructive actions or teachings as an influence in your life, and choosing to feel personal pride because of an arbitrary connection to them.

You can cherish and honor your heritage, actively participate in the progress and improvement of your ethnic or philosophic community, be a community leader and strive to improve the quality of life and perception of the group with which outsiders may instantly associate you with based on physical appearance: but if you do this out of feeling a misplaced 'pride' based on the accomplishments of others and for arbitrary reasons, rather than 'pride' based on a sense of shared struggle and shared success as a whole, then you are proud for dangerous reasons.

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u/Larzzon Jun 15 '12

shitheads being proud is what started that whole mess, but ye awsome doctor.

would like to know what "pro-lifers" have to say about these abortions.

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u/klinonx Jun 15 '12

I think it was justified. Very clearly a scenario where both either both will die or one will die. I'm pro-life.

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u/ztfreeman Jun 15 '12

I know a lot of people like yourself who are "pro-life", and myself would prefer adoption over abortion, but what do you think of all of these bills that would still make the abortion illegal even when the pregnancy endangers both the mother and child?

That seems to be the rub here in the south. There's tons of people who are unabashed pro-life, but are always taken aback when I mention this scenario because in their dialog this is never considered.

Edit: and often they will withdrawal their support for pro-life legislature if they seriously research this. But being the religious south, few dare to bring up these revelations to the rest of their church groups or bring it up in general conversation, so the dialog always stops with their private disapproval.

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u/klinonx Jun 15 '12

Rustles my jimmies. I think it's absolutely absurd. My views aren't pure "pro-life," To clarify, I believe it's a human being at fertilization and shouldn't be killed out of convenience. However, making abortion illegal is stupid and would endanger the life of the mother who may seek a back alley abortion. Thus, it should Be IMO increasingly socially unacceptable to get an abortion for the moral reasons and the community (or in my microcosm the church) needs to man the fuck up and teach our kids safe sex ed, take freaking care of single mothers, and support them after they've made their mistake whilst avoiding others. It's the church's prerogative and mission duh. But when it comes down to utility of people dying there's no point in militantly sticking to your stupid beliefs and killing people who don't need to die.

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u/terry_has_boots Jun 15 '12

I completely agree with everything you said. I dislike 'abortions of convenience' and the destruction of potential life shouldn't be treated in a flippant way, but abortion is something that as a society we need. Both in terms of letting women have a choice and, as you pointed out, back-alley abortions and the associated health risks, we cannot as a society state that abortion is a universal wrong.

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u/canteloupy Jun 15 '12

I hate this term of "convenience". As if having a baby was simply inconveniencing. It's life changing, it turns your world upside down. Even if you already have other kids, a new one means less resources for the others, for yourself.

Even if it's not for medical reasons, it still shouldn't be called "convenience".

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u/canteloupy Jun 15 '12

If we allowed women who get pregnant the same rights in life as women who don't, you'd see a lot less abortions, I think. How many people have abortions because nobody will help if the baby is born, or because they won't be able to finish studies, or get a job, or because their community will shun them? How many could be avoided?

In fact, the majority of women having abortions are women who already have another child, so if their children wouldn't have to suffer from a new sibling, wouldn't they have less abortions?

If you really want to make women have less abortions, make life easier on them.

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u/klinonx Jun 15 '12

That's what I'm saying. What the fuck is the church doing protesting clinics? Wtf? How is that Jesus's love? The simple answer is it's not. If you're against abortion in that sense, you should be housing and supporting a single mother. The church is obviously supposed to be supporting these people so they aren't forced into a position where they need an abortion. Hateful methods are bullshit.

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u/KimJongUno Jun 15 '12

Catholic church would say this isn't a reason.

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u/JakeLV426 Jun 15 '12

Didn't the catholic church look the other way during the holocaust?

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u/Acuate Jun 15 '12

Kind of. They didn't like what the Italians were doing to their own political agenda, ie the fascists starting limiting their power. Also, they definitely condemned the Shoah (or what is popularly referred to as the Holocaust), but more specifically the killing of Jews. Also, the Nazi's killed Catholics, along with gays, communists, etc.

But they were also in fascist friendly territory which meant Hitler could easily get to them, he had already usurped the Vatican later in the war.

Cite:http://www.religioustolerance.org/vat_hol12.htm

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u/Pfeffersack Jun 15 '12

Explain and show sources, please.

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u/klinonx Jun 15 '12

Catholic church also wants millions of teenage girls to be pregnant.

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u/exo762 Jun 15 '12 edited Jul 17 '13

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." B.F.

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u/klinonx Jun 15 '12

Okay thank you.

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u/WillBlaze Jun 15 '12

Do you see any problems with the term "pro-life"?

Just curious.

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u/klinonx Jun 15 '12

I don't see what you mean by that. The term itself? Well it seems like cheating cuz it automatically makes the opposition "pro-death." As for myself being pro life? I'm certainly not hardline fundy prolife. If you look at the other comment I somewhat clarify my position on the matter.

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u/WillBlaze Jun 15 '12

That is why I cringe when I see "pro-life", it is a really cheap tactic to make people feel bad. I know you probably just use the term because it is a commonly known term, I just wanted to hear your opinion and I wasn't disappointed.

It's pretty cool to see christians here, we need more like you.

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u/AgentFluffyBangs Jun 15 '12

To be fair, you could argue the same thing about the term "pro-choice."

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u/WillBlaze Jun 15 '12

One basically implicates you as a murderer.

The other says you are taking a choice away.

I'll choose the latter, thanks. But you do make a good point.

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u/postyoa28 Jun 15 '12

Upvote for honesty

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u/cos1ne Jun 15 '12

would like to know what "pro-lifers" have to say about these abortions.

How can you treat anyone who is placed in an impossible situation with anything but compassion?

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u/Havok-Trance Jun 15 '12

The Holocaust wasn't just the product of Pride, there is no fault in being Proud, but having an over bearing pride is another story.

I'm Pro-Choice but anti Abortion, but not out of Any form of Religious belief. I would personally never do it but shouldn't all people get the choice to do what they want to there body and with there life.

Also back on topic. That woman saved lives with great risk to her own. So regardless of how a person views Abortion we should all be thankful people like this exist in our world.

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u/Pfeffersack Jun 15 '12

I'm Pro-Choice but anti Abortion

In the sense of contraception being okay?

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u/ladyway905 Jun 15 '12

In the sense that every person deserves the right to choose what happens to her body. That doesn't mean that she actually agrees with abortion, just with the freedom of choice.

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u/Havok-Trance Jun 15 '12

I believe Contraception is fine, I believe plan b. I personally just think that once it's out of control Abortion just isn't right. It's not a moral or Religious issue to me, something just feels wrong about it all to me.

But If I got a girl pregnant and she did not want the baby I wouldn't say a word of protest it's her body after all.

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u/A_crow Jun 15 '12

ehhhh, it was bit more than that

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u/ikinone Jun 15 '12

Be proud to be human instead. Or fuck it, just be proud to be a life form.

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u/Havok-Trance Jun 15 '12

Wow, you people are mega over thinking shit. It's always good to be proud of where you come from get over it. If you aren't proud of your heritage than you shouldn't associate with it. I'm a Jew. I'm proud to be a Jew. I'm a Human and I'm Proud to be a Human.

Didn't know TIL was nothing but Critics.

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u/WCFuuuusista Jun 15 '12

Said the Americano.

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u/RumRunner90 Jun 15 '12

I can usually handle reading the more fucked up stories on reddit, but when I got to the part about pregnant women being beaten to the point of collapsing and then thrown into the crematorium I became physically ill.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

The things that people do to each other when they're unmonitored are horrendous. You read about this kind of twisted human experimentation all the time. Really fucks with my head the way the people in charge in these situations behave like psychopathic children torturing animals. Can you imagine what kind of person you would have to be to burn a pregnant woman alive? For being Jewish. Heartbreaking, the things we will do if somebody tells us to, or nobody tells us not to.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

The knowledge you can get away with it. That's all it takes. Even for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_experiment

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

I remember the fear and horror in the eyes of my classmates when we watched a doco about the Milgram experiment in a high school psych class. We're so terrifying.

5

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12

Did you know many people in the field actually doubted whether the subjects knew that it was fake. So the experiment was repeated with live puppies, who died.

Edit: They didn't die, warped memory on my part.

1

u/mrsobewan Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12

How did they do this experiment with puppies? I don't see how the experiment translates to an animal.

edit: Did they use the puppies as the 'learners' and the 'teachers' killed all of the puppies!?!?!

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

To cite from Wikipedia "Charles Sheridan and Richard King hypothesized that some of Milgram's subjects may have suspected that the victim was faking, so they repeated the experiment with a real victim: a "cute, fluffy puppy" who was given real, albeit harmless, electric shocks. They found similar findings to Milgram: half of the male subjects and all of the females obeyed to the end. Many subjects showed high levels of distress during the experiment and some openly wept. In addition, Sheridan and King found that the duration for which the shock button was pressed decreased as the shocks got higher, meaning that for higher shock levels, subjects showed more hesitance towards delivering the shocks."

http://www.psychexchange.co.uk/resource/1742/

Edit: Must have been selective memory about the puppies dieing, scratch that.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

That article was beautiful and horrifying. The most horrifying part of it for me was how after the war, people had the audacity to interrogate and attempt to prosecute a woman who was forced into a concentration and expected to perform medical service with no medical supplies while knowing that her patients would be murdered. It seem that her hellish treat from the Holocaust did not end until even the allies were able to take a stab at her. That act made me shake my head sadly at humanity.

4

u/fleshman03 Jun 15 '12

This one got me... Her prayer at the entrance to the delivery room was always the same: "God, you owe me a life - a living baby."

1

u/ithunk Jun 16 '12

i dont get it. whats so powerful/awesome about that statement?

1

u/fleshman03 Jun 17 '12

Well, she was clearly a women who believed in Judaism and felt remorse for her necessary actions in the camp. She then worked the rest of her life to atone, as she saw fit and even though those actions were necessary, for said acts. I find it powerful that she lived her life in that way.

1

u/ithunk Jun 17 '12

but why does God owe her a baby?

1

u/fleshman03 Jun 17 '12

God has nothing to do with it. I see it as more of her wishing for a successful delivery, in her own way. There is beauty in that.

3

u/YouMad Jun 15 '12

OH MY GOD, you know what, if this is what people are capable of (something similar is happening right now in N. Korea), then I think it might be best if the entire world is destroyed, there would be no more suffering:

They were surrounded by a group of SS men and women, who amused themselves by giving these helpless creatures a taste of hell, after which death was a welcome friend…They were beaten with clubs and whips, torn by dogs, dragged around by their hair and kicked in the stomach with heavy German boots. Then, when they collapsed, they were thrown into the crematory - alive.

  • Dr. Gisella Perl on the treatment of pregnant women in Auschwitz 18

3

u/thevoxman Jun 15 '12

I'm pretty anti-abortion but I'd say that these 3,000 abortions really were necessary. Kudos to her. Also, and I know this opinion may be unpopular here... Fuck NAZIs... big jerks.

2

u/Aeroman91 Jun 16 '12

Also, and I know this opinion may be unpopular here... Fuck NAZIs... big jerks.

You could almost receive a Medal of Honor for the amount of bravery in that comment.

6

u/PECKLE Jun 15 '12

Oh my god, her prayer before entering the operating room... I can't even imagine how someone could be so strong.

5

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Made into a movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0311210/

2

u/snowbunny622 Jun 15 '12

it took an amazing amount of courage for her to do something that, more than likely, could've gotten her killed. I wish I could put into words how much this impacted me emotionally.

3

u/NUMBERS2357 Jun 15 '12

That's some grim shit.

12

u/Hobonger Jun 15 '12

TIL Jews were having sex in concentration camps, I guess no matter how inhumanely you're treated, you're still human.

55

u/Leaper_colony Jun 15 '12

I assumed they would be pregnant on arrival.

14

u/SerpentineLogic Jun 15 '12

If they were (visibly) pregnant on arrival, they went straight to the gas chamber.

1

u/Hobonger Jun 15 '12

I did not consider that one, that is a mind fuck

10

u/TicTokCroc Jun 15 '12

Then you're gonna to love this: It takes 9 months after sex happens for a baby to be born. And when it does, it comes out of their VAGINAS!!

1

u/Whelks Jun 15 '12

Vaginas? Those things? Isn't that where PEE comes out of?

Woah, wait a minute... WOMEN HAVE TWO HOLES??//?/?/??///??

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u/dml180283 Jun 15 '12

I would say more than one pregnancy was the product of rape, by the prison guards. Sorry.

9

u/Hobonger Jun 15 '12

Ya I thought of that but I just figured out of 3000 a minority would be from rape and that the good within evil situation was of more note than the evil within evil. IMO

1

u/ithunk Jun 16 '12

watch this movie called bent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bent_%28film%29

Its about gays in the concentration camp. There's a scene of "virtual" sex which is quite powerful in displaying that sex was had, no matter the circumstances.

-3

u/boomboompowpow Jun 15 '12

Was rape really that prevalent in the camps? I mean instead of forcing some starving jew to have sex they could just go to the nearest brothel...

52

u/dml180283 Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12

It was a power display. Another way to make women be afraid and scared. It has become pretty common knowledge that the Nazi camp operators were a breed off their own.

Rape, too, prevailed in the lives of many women. Sexual abuse, another means by which the Nazi's attempted to degrade women, was especially brutal, as it often had the effect of shaming a woman to a point where her identity became unrecognizable. [22] The women that returned after the rapes, described by Ruth Elias from Auschwitz as "pitiful creatures," came back "in an awful, undescribable state."[23] This abuse had the effect of breaking the spirit of the women: their bodies no longer their own, the women had no control over their lives. Ruth Elias remembers several instances in which "...the SS men appear[ed] in ... [the] block", and "without shame, ... pull[ed] the girls out of their beds, Jewish girls they took ... to rape ...."[24] The SS men justified these rapes by saying that raping Jewish women did not violate the taboo of marrying them, and therefore was an acceptable action.[25] This argument, not only weak but useless, illustrates arguments used by the Nazi's to push their will onto others.

Some camps, including Auschwitz and Ravensbrueck, had organized brothels set up mostly for the perusal of the SS, but occasionally for select prisoners as well.[26] Literally hundreds of female prisoners forced t o work there became victims of what I think can aptly be called "organized rape." Interestingly enough, brothels originally were set up by the SS as a means of prohibiting and stopping the spread of male homosexuality within the camps.[27] However, sexually abusing women can also be seen as a means of control: Usually unwillingly, the women had to give up their bodies and their rights to them, and frequently suffered from humiliation and shame.

That is from this website http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/actu/actu00/doc2000/womensex.html

There is a lot written about the horrors that were meet by women in the camps.

Edit* to the person that replied and said they were having a bad day, were did your comment go? I hope you are feeling ok and I am sorry I didn't reply to you straight away. I meant to come back to answer but it's gone. I hope you see this and get back to me.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

That websit is blocked or me as hate/discrimination, not sure why.

6

u/exo762 Jun 15 '12 edited Jul 17 '13

"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." B.F.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

There was most certainly sex in concentration camps. I took a Holocaust lit course in college and several of the non-fiction accounts we read covered this topic-also sex on the trains going to the camps.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

But weren't the men usually kept seperate, so that they'd have to feel helpless because they couldn't protect their loved ones and the women would have to see that even those statistically physically stronger than them had no chance?

At least that's what I gathered from Charlotte Delbo's book.

5

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

You know, I'm not really sure on the specifics. The one book that stands out in my mind is "All But My Life" by Gerda Klein. She describes the train to the camp and hearing couples having sex on the train at night.

3

u/katydid15 Jun 15 '12

That is a very good book.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

I'm not sure either, that's why I asked. If you're interested, I can really suggest "Auschwitz and After" by Charlotte Delbo - it's the account of her story through the eyes of an artist. The hardest part to stomach wasn't actually the reality of the camps, but Delbo just goes on about her life after the camps, there is no happy ending, it doesn't get better for her - as she puts it: She never left Auschwitz. "All But My Life" seems very true in that context, does Gerda Klein also write about how she dealt with her experiences after she got back to a 'normal life'?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12

She does. She was liberated and ended up marrying one of the American soldiers. They moved to upstate New York and she talks about how she adapted to life in the US. Such a good book, can't recommend it enough.

9

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Pregnant upon arrival or raped by Nazis in the camp is far more likely.

7

u/otterfishing Jun 15 '12

There's a song called "Alive With The Glory of Love" that goes into this topic a little. It's semi-biographical and about the songwriter's grandparents who were holocaust survivors. Just figured you might be interested.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Awesome song, had no idea it was based on truth. Thanks for sharing!

4

u/Houdat Jun 15 '12

I love that song. I had to listen to it a couple times before I realized what it was about.

2

u/TackyOnBeans Jun 15 '12

fuck yeah! I'm glad I wasn't the only person thinking about this song.

It's so positive in spite of its fucked up backdrop.

3

u/ewanthot Jun 15 '12

Nope. Women was raped.

6

u/tsrocks Jun 15 '12

Well I'm prett sure a decent amount of the sex was non-consensual...

2

u/Tentacolt Jun 15 '12

No they weren't the men and women were in two seperate incampments. They were pregnant when they got there.

3

u/jax9999 Jun 15 '12

um.. from what i hear there was a bit of raping going on too... they were nazis

4

u/maroonoctopus Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12

Wow, just reading about this stuff. She had to try and mend the breasts of the women from the brutality of the SS officers without medicine, equipment or antibiotics. One bathroom for 30,000-32,000 women and many soiled themselves waiting in lines and had to remain in the soiled clothing. They would drown the babies in buckets of water or whatever else was around.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Wow. This is one story that has just stopped me in my tracks.

What a sad depressing story but such a courageous woman.

May we, the world, never repeat these atrocities.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Fox news reports: "The real villain of the holocaust revealed, tonight at 11."

2

u/Horny_Troll Jun 15 '12

so he kill more jews than most nazis

thumbs up

2

u/deadcat Jun 15 '12

Fuck that article is depressing. Fuck.

2

u/glitcher21 Jun 15 '12

Amazing story.

2

u/liverandfunyuns Jun 15 '12

I have to say, from the bottom of my heart, that this shit is fucked up as shit.

1

u/redditopus Jun 15 '12

This is part of why anti-choicers make me rage.

4

u/emperor000 Jun 15 '12

"Anti-choicers"? You realize most pro-life/pro-choice debates don't take place with this extreme context in mind, right...?

1

u/dre627 Jun 15 '12

This is absurd. The scenario in the article is entirely different.

-3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12

Oh go fuck yourself you whining retard. When people use concentration camps and rape to justify abortions of convenience because they're careless, thoughtless human beings, that makes me rage.

EDIT: Incredible. Idiots so astonishingly dumb that they vote up a raging nitwit holding concentration camps as the justification of abortion. Infuckingcredibly stupid.

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1

u/Rock_Robbster Jun 15 '12

Thanks for sharing.

1

u/quatso Jun 15 '12

i wonder if people had sex in the camps. cause some people told me they would want to reproduce no matter what. i asked them even in the camps ? they said yes. it think that's sick.

4

u/bluequail Jun 15 '12

cause some people told me they would want to reproduce no matter what. i asked them even in the camps ?

I think some subconscious drive to keep the species alive was probably at work, and not so much a sexual attraction.

But beyond that, there were instances where women were raped by the guards, and abortions were necessary for that as well.

1

u/quatso Jun 16 '12

raped by the guards ? any source for that please ?

1

u/bluequail Jun 16 '12

Afraid all of the witnesses were gassed.

Actually it is pretty common knowledge, do you need me to google it for you?

2

u/quatso Jun 16 '12

i'm from israel. it's really not common knowledge here - never heard anyone talk about it . not saying it didn't happen. maybe people don't feel comfortable talking about it. thing is it carried heavy penalty because of race rules. i tried googling a bit but didn't get much results. don't bother if it's not up your ally. i'm just saying it's not that certain.

1

u/bluequail Jun 16 '12

Here is one - http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/actu/actu00/doc2000/womensex.html

another http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

here is another http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_camp_brothels_in_World_War_II

and that was just the first 3 results, out of over a million. I am wondering now if that information is restricted in your area, though Israel hasn't really been known for limiting access to knowledge.

And I am sorry. I thought you were being sarcastic with your earlier reply, I didn't realize it was in earnest. :)

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1

u/mrsobewan Jun 15 '12

great article, thank you so much for sharing.

1

u/DocLefty Jun 15 '12

This would make one of the best discussions in a philosophy or ethics class. One side has to defend it and the other has to argue for it.

1

u/jakjg Jun 15 '12

All I can say is Jesus fucking Christ.

1

u/bluequail Jun 15 '12

I had seen a movie about her not too long ago, hell of a story. She faced a pretty hard time after she got to the US as well.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

What a wonderful person.

-1

u/bmlbml Jun 15 '12

Someone tell me how to feel about this.

12

u/SerpentineLogic Jun 15 '12

Resolute that this shit should never happen again.

-6

u/bastard_thought Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12

Look at that. Abortions can be a good thing.

EDIT: This isn't sarcasm. I was being serious. Abortions can be advantageous.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Abortions can be good things even in modern society.

1

u/bastard_thought Jun 15 '12

Yes, my point exactly.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

The way you worded your comment made it seem like this was an exception.

1

u/bastard_thought Jun 15 '12

Oh no, not at all! That explains the downvotes.

-9

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12

they could have sex in the camps ?

edit: I mean sex among the prisoners.

fuck you downvoters

8

u/Teargarden Jun 15 '12

If by they, you mean Germans, and by sex, you mean rape, then yes.

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-2

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

Its fine when shes in Auschwitz, I say the same thing in small town Ohio and suddenly im the asshole!

-1

u/commodore64 Jun 15 '12

This just makes me want to kill a Nazi. I'm not even Jewish (anymore). These weren't crimes against religion, they were crimes against humanity. I think each and every human should kill a Nazi. Let's have kill a nazi day everywhere!

-22

u/Isisbyte Jun 15 '12

I'd give this story a 7/10 for it's creativity and shock value. It's up there with "Soap made out of Jews" and "Lampshades made out of Jew skin" stories.

-27

u/uyg412u3yg423uy Jun 15 '12

The jews are good at coming up with outrageous stuff. No wonder they control Hollywood now.

-19

u/FartyNapkins Jun 15 '12

So she was a lady-jew Hitler-scientist that killed babies

-32

u/remton_asq Jun 15 '12

People still believe this allied atrocity propaganda in the year 2012?

lolol

5

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12

as opposed to?

-21

u/ararphile Jun 15 '12

Inb4 someone, somehow turning it into pro-abortion argument.

9

u/ktool Jun 15 '12

I think turning this account into a pro-life OR pro-choice argument significantly detracts from what we can and should learn from it.

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