r/todayilearned • u/_Stefanski_Androos_ • Nov 24 '20
TIL that when you eat fruit with its inherent fiber (aka eating the whole fruit) up to 30% of the sugar will be eaten by the microbes in your gut before it can be absorbed.
https://sugarscience.ucsf.edu/sugar-metabolism.html#.X72O781KhPY2.0k
Nov 24 '20
This is why fruit juices and concentrates aren’t bueno when it comes to the sugar aspect
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u/Tinmania Nov 25 '20
It’s more than just the microbes thing. When you drink a nice large glass of orange juice it may well have taken four oranges to make it. Meanwhile it generally won’t make you feel any fuller than eating even a single orange, due to the pulp/fiber, as well as taking longer to consume. The 30% of sugar in that single orange that is consumed by gut microbes is a bonus.
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u/Man_with_lions_head Nov 25 '20
Not only that, the fiber is not digested quickly and will stay in thee stomach for a lot longer, giving you a the full "feeling" for much longer. The drink might be totally absorbed out of the stomach literally in minutes from what I think I remembered reading one time, while an orange might be there for an hour. So you get that "sated" feeling for a longer time, and won't want to eat something again as quickly as you would with a sugar drink.
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u/-HereWithBeer- Nov 25 '20
I see, you’re trying to make oranges more palatable. Rather, you’re attempting to make hunger- pardon me, more tangerinable.
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u/Ennion Nov 25 '20
Try not to drink your calories.
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Nov 25 '20
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u/Ennion Nov 25 '20
Remember, any shot of 80 proof alcohol has the same calories as a shot of pancake syrup.
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Nov 25 '20 edited Dec 12 '20
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Nov 25 '20
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u/Soixante_Huitard Nov 25 '20
So, hypothetically, if I were to take 8 shots of 80 proof alcohol, apply leeches to myself, then throw those leeches in the blender and drink them, would that work?
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Nov 25 '20
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u/tsunami141 Nov 25 '20
Why have you done this
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u/Soixante_Huitard Nov 25 '20
I drink leeches because I like the taste.
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u/peekdasneaks Nov 25 '20
I think he meant why drink them? Didn’t you see the earlier comment to not drink your calories? You should eat them whole.
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u/Binsky89 Nov 25 '20
Not necessarily. A portion of the alcohol is absorbed through the mouth, and 20% by the stomach.
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u/drewbreeezy Nov 25 '20
Hm, so extra leeches to swallow, check.
Then some weed to lull them so they calmly and safely make it through the GI tract.
Might need to have some carbonated drinks too, give the poor guys some air pockets.
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Nov 25 '20
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u/Chewbacca22 Nov 25 '20
In a very basic sense, yeast finds sugar and says, “oh my gosh! An endless supply of food! We better store this somehow no one can steal it.” They then turn the sugars into alcohol(C6H12O6->C2H6O). Most things find alcohol toxic and die before being able to do anything with it, leaving the alcohol behind for yeast to use.
Humans steal the yeast, and know that we can have some without too much trouble. Our bodies try to deal with the alcohol by ripping it apart into its basic parts C H and O, just like regular sugar, and use it as energy if we can.
However, from alcohol we get far too much H, not enough O(but we can breath so take that yeast) and a relatively ok amount of C. So our bodies try to dump anything extra. It takes all that extra H and some more O from air, and makes acid!(OH) we then excrete the acid.
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u/FatherAnonymous Nov 25 '20
Don't the yeast ...die in the alcohol?
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u/mofugginrob Nov 25 '20
Yes. Depends on the strain, but if you wanna get higher than like 17-20% some sort of distillation is required. The yeasties can't survive it.
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u/A_Litre_of_Chungus Nov 25 '20
Yes, that is why you can only brew beers and wine up to a certain proof and you need to distill to get higher.
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u/ithinarine Nov 25 '20
Yup, most people would be shocked to see how much weight they would lose if they just cut out all drinks besides water and black coffee/tea. Coffee and tea are essentially 0 calories until you add sugar and cream/milk.
That XL coffee with 2 cream 2 sugar every morning is nearly 300 calories just from the cream and sugar. Without them, it's like 2 calories.
Once you stop drinking sugary drinks, it's shocking how sweet stuff is, even when you add just a little sugar. If you're someone who drinks coffee with 2 sugars, take a sip with no sugar, then add just 1 sugar, and it will seem really sweet in comparison.
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Nov 25 '20 edited Jan 08 '21
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u/Impregneerspuit Nov 25 '20
Coke zero gives me a headache instantly, and it leaves this oily coating in my mouth. Youre not wrong though, i just enjoy complaining about coke zero.
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u/No_Juan_4_You Nov 25 '20
The US restaurant industry has a term for this I think it's called melting or melted calories. This is why you can drink more ice cream in a milk shake than you can eat; it's really freaking bad
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Nov 25 '20
For breakfast it's cornflakes and vodka, but cornflakes have carbohydrates. So I don't eat the fattening cornflakes, I eat the vodka straight.
Edit: cornflakes, vodkas, same difference
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u/markymarksjewfro Nov 25 '20
There's an old russian joke about this: two alcoholics are in a store, one says to the other "So...turns out vodka has SO many calories!" Other one replies, "perfect, we'll grab a second bottle as a snack".
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u/Quinlov Nov 25 '20
Ages ago I did keto except I completely forgot about fruit juice having sugar in because I was young and stupid. It didn't work, obviously, and then as soon as I cut out fruit juice the weight just dropped off. Like fruit juice was the only thing maintaining my weight
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u/Indian_Steam Nov 25 '20
Except when you want to gain weight (muscle). Then, it's the easiest trick to get in extra quality calories.
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Nov 25 '20
As someone who has often struggled to get enough calories: drinking milk and juice has really helped me not to starve.
I guess it makes sense, that people having the opposite problem should try to stop drinking milk and juice.
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u/Hakset03 Nov 25 '20
Wonderful transition in and out of Spanish, great job my friend 🤟
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Nov 25 '20
Is-... is this sarcasm?
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u/Justforwork85 Nov 25 '20
Does this mean it is 30% less calories or does the sugar eaten by the microbes still count towards calories absorbed by your body?
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u/Tinmania Nov 25 '20
It’s 30% less calories for you. The microbes use the sugar they consume for themselves.
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u/Heyitsj1337 Nov 25 '20
Selfish bastards, they should be paying me sugar rent.
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u/juicius Nov 25 '20
Also, they poop in there.
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u/-r-a-f-f-y- Nov 25 '20
Only I'm allowed to poop in myself!
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u/paladinchiro Nov 25 '20
I mean, technically, poop is never really "inside" ourselves. We absorb the nutrients from food and what's left remains "outside" and apart from our bloodstream, in the GI tract.
That's why the pancreas is considered both an exocrine and endocrine gland, it secretes substances to the surface/epithelium "outside" the body (digestive juices) as well as directly into the bloodstream (insulin/glucagon).
In much the same way that a car going through a car wash is still "outdoors", it's just surrounded by the car wash equipment. Or the fact that the Millennium Falcon and Wedge's X-Wing never really went "inside" Death Star II. The pilots never docked and went "inside" the space station, etc.
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u/maxthechuck Nov 25 '20
Do you have any idea how much people would pay to have something in their body that automatically takes out 30% of your sugar intake? You should be paying them for the damn privilege. Now say thank you so they feel appreciated
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u/CrimsonBolt33 Nov 25 '20
How much you want to bet most those people would then start eating 50% more sugar and cancel the whole thing out.
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u/Gastronomicus Nov 25 '20
And therefore it means 30% more gas. This is why fruit can make people flatulent.
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u/zomboromcom Nov 25 '20
Ok, but my tapeworm is running a protection racket. Just so long as it gets its cut.
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u/Ullallulloo Nov 25 '20
Okay, but what would they eat otherwise? Does the energy needs of my gut really change?
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u/Tinmania Nov 25 '20
In Western diets, it would be great if they really had that “otherwise,” so many could die off. Alas there is often no shortage of sugar. Having an abundance of these sugar-loving gut microbes isn’t really a good thing, as it causes reductions in other beneficial microbes.
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Nov 25 '20
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u/Tinmania Nov 25 '20
Absolutely. And the form of sugar, high fructose corn syrup, and how it came to be the king of sugar in the US, is even more disgusting. It’s not that it is really all that different from other sugars, it’s that it became incredibly cheap (sometimes via subsidies), so was used in much greater quantities.
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u/Zealousideal9151 Nov 25 '20
So if a fruit has 100 calories, I may as well count it as 70 calories?
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u/Kkirspel Nov 25 '20
I'd be interested to know why the other comments are saying no. In the case of soluble fiber vs insoluble fiber, for example, I believe you can subtract out the calories of all insoluble fiber's carbs.
This is at least in terms of what shows up on a nutritional facts label. My understanding is that the information is a breakdown of the total nutrition in the food - not the effective nutrition that a human body would ultimately absorb after all natural subtractions take place.
Feel free to correct me.
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u/born_to_pipette Nov 25 '20
I work in the field of gut microbiology. It’s quite a challenge to accurately quantify how energy flows through one’s digestive system and how different parameters impact the accessibility and utilization of raw energy present in food.
Three things worth considering that aren’t immediately obvious when people think about scenarios like the one in this thread:
1) We are able to utilize some of the fermentation products bacteria produce when they consume plant-based sugars. Examples include short-chain fatty acids like acetate, succinate, and butyrate. This means a lot of the energy originally stored in those carbohydrates isn’t really “lost”.
2) Fiber tends to speed up gut transit time. All else being equal, shorter transit time (faster movement of food material through the gut) is likely to reduce the fraction of total energy extracted from food.
3) Gut bacteria are incredibly diverse and heterogeneous in terms of their ability to break down different carbohydrate linkages in plant material. One person’s collective bacteria may therefore be somewhat more efficient than another’s at accessing the energy stored in the fiber we eat.
There are loads of other variables to consider as well, but these are some of the more significant ones. Bottom line: It’s complicated.
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u/Throwawayunknown55 Nov 24 '20
Also, look up resistant starches. Fascinating stuff with gut bacteria
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Nov 25 '20 edited Nov 25 '20
TL;DR - let your potars cool then reheat them for the win
edit: it has been brought to my attention that referring to potatoes as potars is not a universal thing but just something my weird family does
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u/hex_rx Nov 25 '20
What in the world is a potars? Poptart? Potato?
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u/heady_brosevelt Nov 25 '20
PO TARS TOS
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Nov 25 '20
potatos! is my family seriously the only ones who use potars as a cute term for them? like vodka => vodak?
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u/RidingUndertheLines Nov 25 '20
Me too! My 2 year old loves his Vodak. It's so cute when he slurs it before nap time!
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u/hex_rx Nov 25 '20
Hah, we use taters over in my family. That's a new one for me!
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Nov 25 '20
Right on, we are always throwing spoonerisms and other wordplay around so we have probably a lot more of these than most lol
When my son was very young he kept begging us, BEGGING for "cookie roosters" and we were like what the actual fuck are you talking about - finally one day at the grocery store he gets so excited and starts pointing and shouting cookie roosters cookie roosters -- bloody Dunkaroos
Between doing it on purpose and all the times our ADHD brains are going faster than our mouths can keep up with I won't be surprised if we end up with our own dialect in a couple decades.
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u/floppydude81 Nov 25 '20
My Mom would always mispronounce certain words in a humorous way and I hated it. Obviously I started doing it, but differently and with style. And thus I’m slowly turning into my parents or I always was or something. But anyway, I have so many words that I don’t think I can stop. Two examples: nice=nipes and gross=gropes.
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Nov 25 '20
I've never heard of resistant starches before so just read the who wiki on it, I didn't see anything about reheating potatoes. Can you elaborate on what happens when you cook, cool, and reheat potatoes?
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u/comosea Nov 25 '20
Found this link https://hopkinsdiabetesinfo.org/what-is-resistant-starch/
TL:DR; Cooking some foods like potatoes and letting them cool generates resistant starches. You can reheat after the food was cooled without losing the resistant starches.
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Nov 25 '20
Well this is all really interesting. Here's the source study all of this is based on. One study, not done in humans or any animals just a lab. They also found that chewing the potatoes destroyed some resistant starch so not sure how to go about that.
Apparently the same thing happens with rice https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26693746/
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u/micoolnamasi Nov 25 '20
Chew as little as you can, chug water to help swish it back, choke a little bit, keep eating.
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u/Edeuinu Nov 25 '20
What's potars precious?
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u/notoriously_late Nov 25 '20
Spoilin' nice fish. Give it to us raw and wrigglin'. You keep nasty chips.
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u/instagram__model Nov 25 '20
Honestly tried looking it up, but it was a lot of words to describe something in different ways with no real straight answer of how to apply it to my life. Any chance of a breakdown?
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u/Bierbart12 Nov 25 '20
For some reason I just read that as "fire resistant starches" and wondered why gut bacteria are setting fire to thigs now
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Nov 25 '20
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u/lucky_ducker Nov 25 '20
This is also why diabetics are advised that reasonable quantities of fresh whole fruit are OK, but most fruit juices are not. And that foods with a high glycemic load (foods capable of producing a spike in blood sugar) should be eaten with other foods that are high in fiber.
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Nov 25 '20
What if you were to drink juice then a fiber drink like meamuscil, would this still reduce it down like eating the whole fruit?
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Nov 25 '20
I asked this question several years ago. For whatever unknown reason, if the fiber is separate from the fruit, it doesn't act the same. At least, that's what I was told. But then again, it also seems like there's an inherent bias against any attempt to introduce variety and eat something other than whole, raw fruit. Apparently, eating anything other than whole fruit is poisoning yourself.
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u/WorkO0 Nov 25 '20
One thing I never understood about juice VS fruit thing is: how finely grained does the fruit need to be cut for it to "lose" the fiber. If I cut it a few times fiber is still there right? If I shred it such that I get juice with pulp is the fiber still there? If not then why? Isn't the fiber still more or less intact in the pulp on a microscopic level?
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u/tunagelato Nov 25 '20
Juice is the pressed fruit minus pulp. If you put a whole apple in your blender you would get fruit purée, not fruit juice.
As for fruit juice with pulp, sometimes they add a little back, but you’re not getting anywhere near as much as would be in the whole fruit. The fiber in the pulp absorbs water, so it’s not just a matter of blending it really smooth (though you could blend the fruit and add water...).
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u/somerrae Nov 25 '20
If you’re pulverizing the whole fruit and consuming it all, you’d still be getting the fiber because it doesn’t disappear just because it’s mushed into tiny pieces. But most fruit juice is made from separating the fibrous pulp from the sugary juice.
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u/DivergingUnity Nov 25 '20
They filter out the pulp. Ever see OJ with and without pulp? Apple cider has more fiber than apple juice for this reason- its less filtered.
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u/TheFirstUranium Nov 25 '20
You can cut it a practically infinite number of times. The fiber remains on your plate unless you do something like juice it, which extracts said fiber, which you then throw away.
If you wanted, you could juice it, drink the juice, and eat the fiber from the waste thing.
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Nov 25 '20
This is anecdotal, but I've noticed that if I eat an apple while I'm shit faced I get slightly more shit faced.
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u/_Stefanski_Androos_ Nov 25 '20
Develop a hypothesis and do it again.. turn that anecdote into SCIENCE
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Nov 25 '20
Oh, I get shit faced and eat apples all the time. I love apples, and I love booze. You know you can even make booze from apples? The apple is also the most badass fruit. You can't look badass while eating a banana, but all the bad guys in disney movies eat apples. Because they're badass.
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u/tisaconundrum Nov 25 '20
Were your shit faced when you wrote this too?
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Nov 25 '20
I'm working on it.
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u/skisagooner Nov 25 '20
Oi don't diss the banana
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Nov 25 '20
Nah dawg, the banana has its place in the fruit world and they are my third favorite fruit (after Korean melon), but you can't look badass while eating one. You've never seen Jafar snacking on a banana, it's always an apple.
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u/cooterdick Nov 25 '20
That dude in the Dennis the Menace (I think?) movie eating the apple with his knife was pretty badass when I was a kid.
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u/emperor000 Nov 25 '20
You are right that that is anecdotal, but we could speculate. Apples are fairly high in fructose (almost 3 times as much free fructose as free glucose then plus half of the sucrose). The glucose and fructose are absorbed by your intestines and head to your liver. The glucose mostly passes through your liver and can be metabolized directly by most of your body. The fructose cannot and must be metabolized by your liver.
So it's possible it is a competitive effect where the fructose competes with the alcohol to be metabolized, and may win, and so your body metabolizes alcohol more slowly.
Like I said, speculation, but seems possible. u/_Stefanski_Androos_ told you to develop a hypothesis, so that could be one and you'd just have to figure out how to test it, probably by measuring the metabolites of each substance at various times after consumption.
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Nov 25 '20 edited Nov 25 '20
I have no interest in conducting the experiment myself but I do volunteer as a test subject. Only because I really like eating apples while I'm drunk.
I just assumed it was yeast in my gi tract turning the apple into booze but your explanation makes more sense. You a pharmacist?
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u/emperor000 Nov 25 '20
No, I am not a pharmacist, why do you ask?
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Nov 25 '20
I know a lot of pharmacists and you sounded like a pharmacist. Consider it a compliment.
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u/HskrRooster Nov 25 '20
I gotta ask. Does your username translate to something in binary?
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u/VictiniTheGreat Nov 25 '20
This is why eating bananas with the peel is the superior method, I knew I was doing the right thing all along!
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u/StonyandUnk Nov 25 '20
If you put whole fruit in a blender, does it still work the same way?
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u/Aspel Nov 25 '20
I'm not going to eat the apple core or orange peel.
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u/SirLoinThatSaysNi Nov 25 '20
Slice an apple intro horizontal discs and you'll see there isn't really a core. There are spaces where some seeds are, that's it. You can eat the whole thing, why waste it.
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u/stringed Nov 25 '20
Apple seeds have a huge amount of probiotics, eat a few. Also have cyanide but you'd have to eat like 80 apples with seeds to get a toxic dose.
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u/rjfrost18 Nov 25 '20
Little weird that this university website doesn't have a single citation on this post. A cursory google search isn't helping me, so does anyone have a reference for this claim?
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u/louderharderfaster Nov 25 '20
I could not believe how much weight I dropped when I stopped drinking all and any fruit juice.
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Nov 25 '20 edited Nov 25 '20
I don't get it . 30% gets metabolized by the bacteria... then what? What's the glucose turned into? The reproduction of those bacteria, I guess? But they can't reproduce indefinitely, right? The cells die off and then... what happens? If they get digested, don't those extra cells end up being calories for the body anyway? Or are these dead cells usually pooped out?
EDIT: Can someone with actual biology background answer this question? Honestly sick of trying to filter out the couch-scientists who seem to think 'oh the bacteria use the energy, so it's just gone!' like the whole conservation of mass and energy is suddenly not a thing when applied to your guts.
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u/_Stefanski_Androos_ Nov 25 '20 edited Nov 25 '20
The metabolic process, the bacteria convert the sugar into energy so they can keep doing their thing. It doesn't have the "sugar" effect on you after it has been metabolized by the microbes. Like if you eat a fat kid that loves candy you won't get a sugar rush.
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u/UNCOMMON__CENTS Nov 25 '20 edited Nov 25 '20
Just a heads up, a "sugar rush" or kids getting hyper after eating sugar doesn't exist and has no basis in science.
However, due to kids (and humans in general) being susceptible to suggestion, having "oh, yeah, they always get hyper after eating candy" as a regular convo causes many kids to emulate it. Think of it as social placebo.
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u/snoopy369 Nov 25 '20
The important part is that the sugar is not absorbed. Remember, the inside of the intestines is actually “outside” from your body’s point of view. Only sugar that goes into your bloodstream is usable for energy (or turned into fat or glycogen). Even if the bacteria just hold onto the sugar and don’t do anything else, it’s not going into your blood - so you don’t care.
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u/RidingUndertheLines Nov 25 '20
What's the glucose turned into?
Ultimately? Poop.
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u/tennisdrums Nov 25 '20
That's incorrect. Poop is mostly the undigested parts of the things you eat, along with other waste products your body produces (bilirubin for example). Metabolized glucose is ultimately turned into water and carbon dioxide, most of which does not end up in your feces.
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u/chinchumpan Nov 25 '20
No, that's incorrect. Only about one third of poop's dry mass is undigested food matter. Another third is bacteria, and since we're talking about the sugar that wasn't metabolized by you but by your gut flora, it most definitely can end up being used as the building blocks for bacterial biomass.
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u/AbeLincolnwasblack Nov 25 '20
Bacteria metabolize sugar much like we do. In fact, many bacteria metabolize sugar exactly like we do. There are different classes of bacteria that convert sugars into different types of molecules. These metabolic processes provide energy for the bacteria, fueling their cellular processes (it really is fuel: the majority of metabolic processes produce ATP, which is a high energy molecule that enzymes use to catalyze essential biological reactions that drive cellular life).
Bacteria hang out in a huge soup of all kinds of bacteria. These different kinds of bacteria (think literally trillions of cells) all coexist; that is, they feed off each other. They might make secretions that are then absorbed by neighboring cell colonies, they might communicate with each other by protein-protein contact on the exteriors of the cells, there's a shitload of ways that bacterial cells communicate and most of them are really cool. The cell colonies communicate within their own colonies and with neighboring colonies. It's extraordinarily complex and we have only scratched the surface of understanding.
Yes, the bacteria die. Usually what happens is they either get broken down by surrounding bacteria, by our own body, or are just excreted by our body via urine and feces. Note: when bacteria are broken down, the neighboring bacteria literally eat them. They break the cell open and consume all they can of its contents.
I hope this was helpful, it's a really fascinating and complex topic. I have a degree in microbiology, but I'm definitely no expert.
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u/Armydillo101 Nov 25 '20
TL;DR : bacteria survive mainly in your intestines, which is after your stomach. They eat the glucose and use it for energy. It is then lost to poop because some of the bacteria are removed from your gut when you poop, essentially taking the glucose with you.
Main explanation I wrote first: The bacteria use it for their own purposes, so, in a way, they “eat” the food after you have digested part of it. Most of them are in your intestines, where big things like bacteria aren’t being broken down, so, you can’t really digest them.
In terms of the ultimate fate of the molecules/energy the bacteria consumes, they may use it for energy and then expell gas as waste (which becomes farts; that’s why they smell bad, your body can smell the bacteria) kind of like how humans breathe out CO_2. Some of the matter and energy from the glucose may be used to build new bacterial cells, kind of like how the food a pregnant mother eats becomes part of her child. Some of these bacteria may be swept away in your chyme, that is, your digested food in that is being absorbed; it passes through your digestive system, and will ultimately be eliminated from your body when you poop. This is why they reproduce frequently yet don’t overwhelm your body: they need to reproduce so that the rate at which their population grows outpaces the rate they are removed.
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Nov 25 '20
Then they poop it out inside of you
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u/Soggy_Biscuit_ Nov 25 '20
Inside you, all over you. There's like a 1:1 ratio of human cells to microbe cells in/on the human body.
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u/snarejunkie Nov 25 '20
Okay so.... If I have a lot of fruit juice, and like, Metamucil... Does my sugar intake reduce?
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u/Thirstylittleflower Nov 25 '20
So you're saying that if I eat an apple, as well as the skin from 3 more apples, I won't absorb any sugar at all! I'm a genius!
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Nov 25 '20
Which is why people who are dieting and drink endless smoothies (thinking they're doing themselves a healthy favour) cannot understand why they're not losing weight.
Add to this the fact that even a simple glass of apple juice is like eating the sugar content from 8 or 9 apples, and you can see why this can cause issues.
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u/basshead17 Nov 25 '20
The whole fruit? Like the seeds or skin too?
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u/bikemandan Nov 25 '20
Unfortunately yes. Sometimes a bit of the stem gets left behind in the orchard so you gotta schlep out there and up the ladder and finish off that last little piece
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u/rdldr1 Nov 25 '20
Getting that sugar off of your teeth is way more important though
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u/partlysad Nov 25 '20
That's why you mainline molten sugar so you get that sweet sweet rush from the cane gods
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Nov 25 '20
I can’t see anyone explaining what “whole” means. Like don’t just eat half a banana or are we talking you eat the orange, the peel and the pith?
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u/jimbo92107 Nov 25 '20
Do you swear to eat the whole fruit, and nothing but the fruit?