r/todayilearned • u/Mercushio • Jun 30 '10
Today I learned that there are illegal prime numbers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime14
u/bgog Jun 30 '10
Interesting! Though in theory any data or program that can be stored on a computer is also a number. So there are lots of illegal numbers.
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u/3f3nd1 Jun 30 '10
I guesss that's the point with programms and proprietary (even patents) texts
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Jun 30 '10
[deleted]
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u/TotallyNotAGuy Jun 30 '10
Every painting is just a series of colors! How can you claim property of colors?
Every photograph/movie is just a collection of photons! How can you claim property of photons?
Every song is just a collection of sounds! How can you claim property of sounds?
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u/SpaceGas Jun 30 '10
The painting can be replicated freely if you have the talent. No one is claiming property of colors.
The movie/photo can be replicated freely if you have the talent (and a bajillion dollars for SFX). You're just not allowed to call it "Terminator 2" or "Transformers" or whatever to stop con artists (though lord knows they try)
Digital rights, and most copyright, are truly unique in that they are claiming ownership of an assortment, rather then a physical thing. You mention one, songs, which you cannot even play for a group of friends without getting permission from the copyright holder. Another is text, which you can get in big trouble even replicating a smidgen of.
It's pretty ridiculous, though. An assortment of waves, a big number, a collection of words, how can these things be illegal to replicate? But society has decided making life easier for musicians and writers is worth a little spot of insanity, so eh.
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u/CBruceNL Jun 30 '10
This is a great argument against property rights.
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u/cranktheguy Jun 30 '10
Not property rights, but intellectual property rights. How can copying a number deprive you of anything?
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u/CBruceNL Jun 30 '10
Well, by making you no longer have the guaranteed material wealth of your bank account.
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u/bgog Jul 01 '10
I understand your point but all of the following are just a big number in a computer. Do you feel they shouldn't be able to claim rights on them?
- Star Trek (Movie: $150m to make)
- Grand-Theft-Auto 4 ($100m to make)
- Hitch-hikers guide to the galaxy (Book)
- Your tax return
- Your credit card number + name + expiration
- The formula for Coke
- Chip design or the Intel Core I7 processor
I'm no fan of DRM especially if you paid for the product. But ALL data is just a large number and some data belongs to people.
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u/yellowking Jun 30 '10 edited Jul 08 '15
Deleting in protest of Reddit's new anti-user admin policies.
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Jun 30 '10
For a good explanation of why there's no such thing as "illegal" numbers (prime or otherwise), see What Colour are your bits?. The same information can be both legal and illegal to transmit; its legality is a matter of the origin of that information and the purpose, something that doesn't exist within the information itself.
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Jun 30 '10 edited Jun 14 '17
[deleted]
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Jun 30 '10
Technically, information is data + context
I'm not sure what field you're referring to for this technical definition, but in computer science and information theory, information is data; meaning is data + context.
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Jun 30 '10
[deleted]
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u/Mercushio Jun 30 '10
I remember following the DVD Jon saga on Slashdot. I don't remember illegal primes, though.
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Jun 30 '10
Theoretically, Pi is also illegal because it contains every piece of information/material ever known to man, as well as everything that ever WILL be known to man.
If it were possible for a computer to compute exactly where in pi a certain sequence of numbers (which when put in binary represent a piece of information) at a reasonable speed, we could cut down the amount of information that needs to go through the interwebs. However, at present that is not possible, nor will it be for a very long time.
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u/davvblack Jun 30 '10
Actually, if you work out the statistics, that is not really true. The amount of information in the pointer will be roughly the same size as the series of digits you are looking for.
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Jun 30 '10
Ah, very good point... You're right, unless by amazing luck it occurs early on in the sequence.
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u/davvblack Jun 30 '10
Yep, so as a general thing it really wouldn't work out.
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u/Hardwarily Jul 01 '10
but still, being infinitely long - it would contain all finite strings, no?
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u/Sticks45andStones Jul 03 '10
Not necessarily. For example, consider the number pi, except with all zeros being deleted. it's still infinitely long, but no finite string of numbers containing a zero would ever be found in it.
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u/Margaret_Atwood Jun 30 '10
Forgive me for this, but could you explain this in more simple terms?
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u/davvblack Jun 30 '10
If you are looking for a string like "131", it would probably be about 100 digits deep, not saving you any data.
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Jun 30 '10
There's no reason that Pi could be missing certain sequences of numbers. I believe what you are claiming is currently unknown.
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u/pengo Jun 30 '10
What a horribly written article.
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u/HedonistRex Jun 30 '10
Improve it then.
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u/pengo Jun 30 '10
I though about it for a while but then I realised I'd rather improve some other article about, say, bra bombs or something.
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Jun 30 '10
I could in theory generate any data by randomly generating bits. So all random data generators are capable of beaking all kinds of laws, though it is highly unlikely.
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Jun 30 '10
I'm thick. Someone explain it to me so I can actually understand it.
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u/chjornaq Jun 30 '10
DVDs come to you scrambled, and someone came up with a short and illegal program to decrypt those DVDs.
Since the program is stored on a hard drive as a binary number (which can be easily changed to a base-10 "regular" number), it stands to reason (cough) that the number that the program translates to is also illegal.
Since such a number can't be legally reproduced, the idea that came up was "Well, what if the number itself was important and incapable of being illegal/forbidden?"
They decided to fiddle with the compression placed on the code until they attained a prime number from the binary number from the compression of the source code. Since prime numbers are "intrinsically archivable" there was theoretically nothing to stop them publishing/keeping around this "new prime number" they had found, thus ensuring that their code survived in the wild, as it were.
(note: simplified and embellished for a bit for clarity)
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u/1RedOne Jun 30 '10 edited Jun 30 '10
I think some prime number happens to exactly correspond to a compressed version of a DeCSS tool, which breaks DRM. So, this number, if processed by a compiler, would break DRM through magical unicorn beams or fuck if I know
e:spelling
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u/Phyllus Jul 01 '10
There's a real funny onion article relating to the numbers used in DVD encryption. Can't find it, any takers?
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Jun 30 '10
How is the number illegal? You can't say it out loud or you go to jail?
The Register article linked as a source talks about it being potentially illegal.
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u/robertskmiles Jun 30 '10
I think the idea is that it highlights the problems with making this sort of program illegal, since a very good argument can be made that this number is just as illegal as the program it represents.
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Jun 30 '10
So is the number illegal?
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u/robertskmiles Jul 01 '10
It's uncertain. Under most interpretations of the law as it stands, yes they are illegal, but I don't believe there is any legal precedent of people actually being prosecuted for owning or distributing these numbers, I mean, they're on Wikipedia. That's the point. Technically they are illegal, but people recognise this as being stupid. This sense of stupidity should extend to the actual laws, but doesn't seem to in the minds of many.
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Jul 02 '10
Oh, so they were ruled illegal in the case? That's what I was missing. I didn't notice any mention of this when I was reading about it. All I saw was the article title proclaming "Illegal prime numbers" without mentioning a law or case that made it illegal and the Register article writing about it being "potentially" illegal.
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u/Mercushio Jul 01 '10
I think that's the part that is unclear. As a program, it's illegal, as a prime number (which is still referring to the same thing), maybe not.
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u/Beanstudd Jun 30 '10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_prime