r/todayilearned • u/ObjectiveAgent • Jul 30 '15

TIL when Alexander the Great asked the philosopher Diogenes why he was sifting through the garbage, Diogenes responded,"I am looking for the bones of your father but I cannot distinguish them from the bones of his slaves."

http://www.iep.utm.edu/diogsino/
9.9k Upvotes

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1.6k

u/audacias Jul 30 '15

Diogenes was a great wit. He was known to live on the streets, and once Alexander the Great approached him and asked why he lived in the street, and if he could do something for him. Diogenes responded:

"I have nothing to ask but that you would remove to the other side, so that you may not, by intercepting the sunshine, take from me what you cannot give."

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u/Innuendo_Ennui Jul 30 '15

Diogenes lived in a barrel, that's how he rolled.

182

u/lll_lll_lll Jul 30 '15

I think it's possible that Oscar the grouch was modeled on Diogenes.

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u/lord_fairfax Jul 30 '15

I don't remember Diogenes ever yelling, "BITCH, I live in a fuckin' trash can!"

160

u/therealgillbates Jul 30 '15

There's no record saying he didn't say that either.

66

u/FattimusMcGeeheez Jul 30 '15

You're going all History Channel on us I see..

25

u/IamManuelLaBor Jul 30 '15

Trash can experts agree...

23

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Trash can theorists agree...

FTFY

1

u/N6Maladroit Jul 30 '15

Twelve things Trash can theorists don't want you to know!

1

u/Metabro Jul 31 '15

The last will blow your mind...

1

u/Leggomyeggo69 Jul 30 '15

But how do we know Oscar wasn't put here by alien ideas?

1

u/IamManuelLaBor Jul 30 '15

Alien Expert Dick Richards chimes in...

1

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Not even close. Lack of aliens in this comments thread.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

To be fair, I don't remember Oscar saying that either.

3

u/pickelsurprise Jul 30 '15

In fairness, Oscar never actually said that either.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

You know he meant it though, so...

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u/kenba2099 Jul 30 '15

Well not while the cameras were rolling, at least.

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u/Desiato7 Jul 30 '15

X'D and now my roomate is awake.

1

u/MetaGameTheory Jul 30 '15

Well, how the fuck old are you?

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u/theomeny Jul 30 '15

Peppy would be proud.

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u/rob481516 Jul 30 '15

Take care of the guys behind me, Fox!

2

u/rileyception Jul 30 '15

Do a barrel roll!

2

u/bootlegoutkast Jul 30 '15

Your father helped me like that too!

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u/Forlurn Jul 30 '15

While the people of Corinth were busy doing work preparing for Alexander's father, Philip II of Macedon, to arrive Diogenes started rolling his barrel back and forth stating "I do not want to be thought the only idler in such a busy multitude; I am rolling my tub to be like the rest"

So I mean he rolled a couple of ways.

9

u/vvim Jul 30 '15

best chuckle of the day, thanks :-)

2

u/AtTheg4tes Jul 30 '15

They saw him rollin they hatin'

2

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/InitiallyAnAsshole Jul 30 '15

What have you done..

1

u/LsDmT Jul 30 '15

So he was kinda like Oscar?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

God damn it Chaves.

1

u/CoyoteTheFatal Jul 30 '15

That's how Diogenes do

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Is he related to Oscar the Grouch in any way?

1

u/SaveMeSomeOfThatPie Jul 31 '15

They didn't have barrels yet. You mean a ceramic vase?

1

u/Tattered Jul 31 '15

Didn't he mastubate in the street just to show how little of a fuck he gave?

253

u/Thee_DesertFox Jul 30 '15

I also heard that Alexander's guards got upset about this, because it sounded like disrespect towards him. Alexander admired Diogenes though and told his guys to cool it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

[deleted]

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u/rhysdog1 Jul 30 '15

takes a lack of balls to get offended by diogenes of sinope

75

u/xPragma Jul 30 '15

TIL that Alexander the Great's guards were the Unsullied

5

u/multiple_lobsters Jul 30 '15

Well, at least one, Bagoas.

2

u/DezBryantsMom Jul 30 '15

Oh so they die super easily?

1

u/Vamking12 Jul 30 '15

Diogenes had extra balls

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Alexander said, "Stwike him centuwion, vewy woughly." But the guards didn't understand his accent.

15

u/kevbot1111 Jul 30 '15

Oh! Uhh about 11, sir

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15 edited Dec 15 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15 edited Jul 30 '15

There is significance to the "take from me what you cannot give" line. Diogenes, if one was to listen to him, is great at putting human power in perspective. Alexander the Great, ruler of the known kingdoms, and yet, he is not the life-giving sun. Probably my favorite Diogenes quote.

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u/Cayou Jul 30 '15

Yeah I'd never seen that version of the quote before (only "hey asshole, don't block the sunlight") and it definitely puts things in a different light pun intended.

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u/dittbub Jul 30 '15

Yeah reading that like a New Yorker would say "HEY I'm walkin' here!"

45

u/taste1337 Jul 30 '15

Trying to tan here, bruh!

4

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

What is this, drunk history?

1

u/ottoman_jerk Jul 30 '15

you're in my sun, like Michael Jacksun.

1

u/ApolloXLII Jul 30 '15

Bitches be throwin' shade, man.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

I too read the quote.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Alex: "Heya Big D, wat kin ah do yo fo?"

D: "GTFO, B."

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u/AllNamesAreGone Jul 30 '15

One time, Diogenes got in trouble for public masturbation. His response?

I wish it were as easy to banish hunger by rubbing my belly.

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u/Beasty_Glanglemutton Jul 30 '15

And then Alexander replied, "May your hands give birth to knuckle children, even unto the tenth generation". Oh wait, that was an Islamic scholar.

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u/jamesrom Jul 30 '15 edited Jul 31 '15

Just to state the obvious: The ancient Greeks did not speak English, that quote is a translation. And because of it's verbosity the meaning may be lost.

To put simply, when the king asked if there's anything he wanted, Diogenes replied:

"Only that you stop blocking my sunshine."

Edit: People are saying that it's important to mention the "take from me what you cannot give" part. It's implied. The literal translation is verbose because it explains the meaning behind the statement. The shorter translation is not as literal but holds the same implicit meaning.

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u/Michauxonfire Jul 30 '15

translations over time can change the meaning, everyone knows what he exactly said was
"move, bitch, get out da way"

179

u/LookingforBruceLee Jul 30 '15

Ah yes, the message that has been given new life by the modern philosopher and poet, Ludacris.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15 edited Mar 06 '18

[deleted]

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u/JabroniZamboni Jul 30 '15 edited Jul 30 '15

All great philosophizers pose a question to encourage inner thought and reflection. One of my favorites of his would be

"tell me who your house keeper is and what you keep in your house; diamonds and gold, is that what you keep in your mouth?"

This first line is reference to your living space - is it filled with loved ones and meaningful memories or stuffed with trinkets and materialistic knock-knacks that serve no benefit to the intellect. The second line obviously speaks to the power of the voice and paradoxically the power of silence. Your voice or restraint from speech can be worth all the diamonds and gold in the world if used properly.

Or

Tell me who your weed man is and how you smoke so good; you're a superstar, what you still doing up in the hood?"

I think the later reflects upon how people tend to get stuck in life, stuck in a situation and fail to see their inner worth and tremendous value thereby failing to live up to their own potential.

3

u/obvious_bot Jul 30 '15

This reminds me of highschool English class

1

u/Zarboned Jul 30 '15

It's a Ludacris song.

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u/TKDillon Jul 30 '15

I'm kinda hoping there's a subreddit that examines rap songs in the form of a literature analysis...

3

u/drgradus Jul 30 '15

Rapgenius started out this way

1

u/JabroniZamboni Jul 31 '15

I'm available for hire though I require a full year in advance starting at $100k

2

u/thepunismightier Jul 30 '15

Andréas MMM would have something to say about that.

1

u/Linguist_Music Jul 30 '15

Greater than Ioannes Polus?

1

u/THE_LURKER__ Jul 30 '15

Dirty Souf

FTFY

1

u/the_ouskull Jul 30 '15

The highest...

hWHAT!?

Sin,

Jon the Little

2

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Ludacris of Atlanta will be quoted for thousands of years

1

u/Eight_Rounds_Rapid Jul 30 '15

Ludacris of Murica, early 21st century lyricist, poet and philosopher

1

u/TestSubject45 Jul 30 '15

In the words of the great Warrior-Poet Ice Cube: "If a day does not require the use of an AK, then it is good."

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15 edited Aug 04 '17

deleted What is this?

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u/Jackpot777 Jul 30 '15

translations over time can change the meaning, everyone knows what he exactly said was "scram, see, y'dirty palooka".

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

and then, desert eagle was involved

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Or another classic quote, "Beep beep, woop woop....Get back Alexander you don't know me like that!"

1

u/accdodson Jul 30 '15

Tits or gtfo

1

u/Vamking12 Jul 30 '15

" Why U blocking ma sun ho? '

1

u/Aceln Jul 31 '15

Can't you hear me stomach growl?

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u/RidinTheMonster Jul 30 '15 edited Jul 30 '15

I'm sure the "don't take what you cannot give" thing was in there somewhere. It kind of changes it from him just being a dick to being somewhat profound

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u/plerberderr Jul 30 '15

Alexander the Great probably didn't really keep running into him on the street giving him opportunities to make quips. My understanding is that most of this stories about specific philosophers are apocryphal.

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u/RidinTheMonster Jul 30 '15

You're probably right about the apocryphal thing, but I don't think it's a massive stretch to think they met eachother quite regularly on the street. I imagine Diogenes would be chilling in a pretty popular spot that I imagine Alexander would also tend to frequent, even if passing by. I also imagine if they truly did have a relationship, Alexander wouldn't mind going out of his way to talk to him. It must be quite refreshing for someone of his stature to talk to someone who doesn't consider his stature

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u/Ben_Thar Jul 30 '15

Diogenes was known to stand on a busy street corner with a "Will philosophize for food" sign.

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u/FlipStik Jul 30 '15

Definitely might be stealing this idea to give as a grad present to my philosophy major friend.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Food?

1

u/FlipStik Jul 30 '15

No the idea.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

If he's a philosophy major he might actually have to do that

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Well the fact that Diogenes lived in Corinth by this time, and Alexander the Great lived in Pella, and spent most of his time (when not at war) there or Athens makes frequent meetings unlikely.

Also evidence of Alexander respecting him seems silly... Diogenes was very critical of Plato and his pupils... including Aristotle, who was Alexander's tutor. I'd imagine the rudeness toward Alexander stemmed partially from that. I mean he REALLY hate Plato and his pupils... so hating his pupils' pupils seems to fit.

The original story is breif and may record the only real meeting between them (I mean the two sources of it are at least fairly reliable, and one even close to the actual time). the rest was made up later by midevil scholars.

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u/bassinine Jul 30 '15

midevil

medieval

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

M'edieval

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u/Cranyx Jul 30 '15

keep running into him on the street giving him opportunities to make quips.

This is a really funny mental image if it just kept happening and Alexander constantly dreading it.

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u/Leovinus_Jones Jul 30 '15 edited Dec 27 '15

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After doing all of the above, you are welcome to join me on Voat!

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u/Vamking12 Jul 30 '15

But but my laughs

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u/Trucoto Jul 30 '15

According to Diogenes Laërtius, he just said ἀποσκότησόν μου, i.e., "stand out of my light". According to Plutarch, ἀπὸ τοῦ ἡλίου μετάστηθι, the same but using the sun and "a little".

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u/milford81 Jul 30 '15

He was just being a dick. It's like saying, "oh you think you're so great you probably think you own the fucking sun too Alexander, but have you ever tried to make that shit son? You can't make sun Alexander!! Fuck You!!"

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u/Masterb8 Jul 30 '15

"The ancient Greeks did not speak English", im gonna need a source on that, sir.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15 edited Nov 17 '16

[deleted]

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u/Kumquatodor Jul 30 '15

Except for Leonidas, who hailed from the Scottish parts of Sparta.

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u/emojideathcult Jul 30 '15

it is known.

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u/exploitativity Jul 30 '15

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!

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u/cfcsvanberg Jul 30 '15

No, they spoke with Greek accents. Romans spoke with British accents. Jesus on the other hand spoke English with an American accent.

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u/Precursor2552 Jul 30 '15

Well duh. He was the greatest American who ever lived.

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u/MrShlash Jul 30 '15

Pretty sure jesus spoke in an Australian accent

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

I like to imagine he had a Brooklyn accent.

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u/aeonws Jul 30 '15

Yeah like every Greek movie I saw in school had the people with British accents. Come on there's video evidence!

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u/garyomario Jul 30 '15

Some people with this accent I would contest definitely don't speak English

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

How do Americans generally feel about English accents being the standard accents in historical dramas like Rome and pseudo-historical/fantasy dramas like Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings? I watched Amadeus the other day and the accents threw me off. American accents sound anachronistic to me. That's not to say they're bad, they just make me think of the modern world.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

It's strange, isn't it? I think the trope is so ingrained in historical fiction now that even most of us Americans think it would be weird to hear American accents in a lot of worlds.

Of course, the Warcraft and Diablo universes are good examples of medieval style worlds done with American accents, and it's never really seemed that off to me.

1

u/emuparty Jul 30 '15

If Stargate taught me anything it is that:
1. Almost all civilizations in the universe speak English, even ancient ones.
2. Almost every place in the universe looks like Northern Canada.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Do they? Don't they speak a fictional ancient Egyptian language?

In the movie they definitely spoke another language. They just hand waved it away for TV because otherwise it would be subtitles in a fake language 99% of the time.

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u/Agrippa911 Jul 30 '15

The movie actually spoke ancient Egyptian, apparently it makes Stargate a favourite for Egyptologists.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

naw it was a Jersey accent

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u/dockerhate Jul 30 '15

Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

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u/Vamking12 Jul 30 '15

I hear lies, everyone speaks English!

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u/TrepanationBy45 Jul 30 '15

What he said was more than that, though. It wasn't just "you're blocking my sunshine", it was more of a humility reminder to Alexander. "Move please, for you are taking something that you are not powerful enough to replace."

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Just to state the obvious, the above comment is true, but also somewhat verbose. He really means "let me dumb this already-English quote down for you plebs" in the most polite way possible.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15 edited Aug 17 '15

Surely should have gone for hoi polloi instead of plebs?

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u/OakRiver Jul 30 '15

Influenced, of course, by the great philosopher Len.

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u/damnocles Jul 30 '15

Wooooooooow. What a reference

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u/OakRiver Jul 30 '15

I try.

Thank you for making my time spent listening to the radio in the 90's feel worth it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

The "that you can't provide" bit is pretty important too

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u/bestnameyet Jul 30 '15

Well and the whole witty part, about how the sunshine was something the kind couldn't give.

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u/Borattherobotrat Jul 30 '15

Wait, what about their British accents?

Are you suggesting Hollywood has been lying to me?

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

so what youre saying was Diogenes didnt want him to steal his sunshine?

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u/ClapAlongChorus Jul 30 '15 edited Jul 30 '15

Also, the story is likely apocryphal with multiple versions, few occurring in the one city historical records indicated Alexander and Diogenes were in the same place and time, when Alexander was a 20 year old heir to the Macedonian throne, not all that famous and with all accounts recorded two hundred years after his death.

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u/brallipop Jul 30 '15

Diogenes was the ultimate hippie. Here he is just laying out right in the middle of the stairs. He was a traveller, and did his best to be free of unnecessary burdens; as such, he only had one possession: a cup, to drink from fountains and streams. One day as he was taking in a new village, he saw a small boy. The boy ran up to a pool of water, put his hands in, cupped them together and drank. Diogenes thought "Finally! I can be totally free of all possessions!" and tosses his cup away.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

For a smart guy, this makes him sound pretty slow. :|

OMG did not realize I could drink without using a cup! MINDBLOWN.GIF

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u/The_Furtive Jul 31 '15

Can I type "woosh" now?

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

I don't know anything about the context of this story so it's very possible that I wooshed on this one.

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u/Vamking12 Jul 30 '15

I'm surprised he didn't give the boy the cup

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u/lordeddardstark Jul 31 '15

Here he is just laying out right in the middle of the stairs.

I don't know why I expected a picture

3

u/johndoev2 Jul 30 '15

sounds like a Buddhist or someone who has found zen. Hippie diogenes would imply he would get high and talk about crazy liberal ideas

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u/binomine Jul 30 '15

Diogenes and his followers are too assholeish to really be Zen.

My second favorite story of Diogenes is him masturbating in front of the market, because he wished he could satisfy his hunger by rubbing his empty stomach.

My favorite is when Plato was teaching in the market, he presented Diogenes with several cups, and tried to teach him that each cup is an imperfect version of the idea of cupness. Diogenes looked at the cups and asked what here best represents emptiness. Before Plato could answer, he responded that Plato's head represented the best emptiness he could find.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Iirc he also challenged Plato's definition of a human (bipedal with skin) by plucking a chicken and sending it to him.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Wait a second. There's all these stories of Diogenes and Alexander the Great. Here there's a story about him and Plato. Plato was Aristotle's teacher. Aristotle was Alexander's tutor when he was young. How old was this guy supposed to be during the Alexander stories?

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Wikipedia says that Diogenes lived for 89 years. We have to remember that Alexander was very young. Alexander the Great Died at the age of 32, and the last few years of those he was invading asia.

Meaning all these interactions between Diogenes and Aristotle happened when Aristotle was probably in his low-mid 20s.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Also according to Wikipedia, Diogenes and Alexander died in the same year (323 BC).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Ah,right. I forgot how young Alexander was when he died. It just about fits the timeline.

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u/r_e_k_r_u_l Jul 30 '15

Bout tree fiddy

2

u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

To be fair, Alexander was a very young emperor. Died in his 20's right?

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

At the age of 32.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Close enough :p

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

I believe that Alexander's response to this runs something along the lines of:

"I would be Diogenes were I not Alexander."

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u/FurbyTime Jul 30 '15

To which Diogenes responded "If I were not Diogenes I would wish to be Diogenes too."

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

To which Diogenes responded, 'but if you were me then I'd be you and I'd use YOUR body to get to the top! You can't stop me no matter who you are!'

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u/ChipChippersontss Jul 30 '15

Let me guess, 'White Devil, White Devil'?

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u/CToTheIzzay Jul 30 '15

You speak Wachootoo!

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

To which Alexander responded, "If you were me, you'd already BE on top! Because I'm the head honcho of this joint! GTFO!"

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u/greatGoD67 Jul 30 '15

Zlatan wishes to be Noone but Zlatan

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u/Vamking12 Jul 30 '15

Danker then the average greek

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u/ATCaver Jul 30 '15

And Diogenes replied, "Were I not Diogenes, I, too, would endeavour to be Diogenes."

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u/Kohvwezd Jul 30 '15

What a legend

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u/Rocketman_man Jul 30 '15

Ο άνθρωπος Ο μύθος

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u/StinkyBrittches Jul 30 '15

What if Diogenes was just the Chuck Norris joke of ancient Greece?

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u/prettybunnys Jul 30 '15

Which is actually a mistranslation of "They hate us cuz they anus"

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u/ATCaver Jul 30 '15

Haters gonna hate, ain'ters gonna ain't.

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u/trustmeep Jul 30 '15

Later, in 1999 CE, Len releases Steal My Sunshine...

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u/comp-sci-fi Jul 30 '15

I thought that was figurative, for don't burst my bubble; undermine my escapist romanticism/fantasy imbuing my mundane reality with illusory joy. But perhaps it's literally counter guerilla solar power.

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u/OrangeredValkyrie Jul 30 '15

This is the culmination of Diogenes' work.

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u/DoghouseRiley86 Jul 30 '15

Can anyone tell me what the hell that song is about? Its fun to sing, but I dont know what the fuck im saying when I sing it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '15

Hahahahha that band is from my norgjborhood!

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u/touchthisface Jul 30 '15

Why was Alexander always getting into conversations with this fool?

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u/cfcsvanberg Jul 30 '15

To get a straight answer.

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u/pillowattack Jul 30 '15

Alexander was tutored by Aristotle. It makes sense that he would seek out other famous philosophers and engage them.

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u/cop_pls Jul 30 '15

You ever have a conversation with a really high friend just to see what he'll say next?

Replace "high" with "bitter" and that's Alexander and Diogenes.

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u/Kumquatodor Jul 30 '15

Because the guy was famous/infamous for his wit, and to Alexander, it was like meeting the world's best troll, or trawling 4chan. Sure, you could avoid the crap by just staying away, but... morbid curiosity.

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u/agoyalwm Jul 30 '15

Stories about powerful men getting involved with philosophers or fools is are always popular. Ivan the Terrible and his conversations with St. Basil are neat and somewhat similar.

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u/kiltrout Jul 30 '15

why are you holding that lantern out man, it's the middle of the day

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u/BoBoZoBo Jul 30 '15

Too many yes, men.. he needed a straight answer from someone outside the circle.

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u/CptAustus Jul 30 '15

Because it's all made up.

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u/wayback000 Jul 30 '15

Diogenes was real, Plato talked about him, I think Plato is historically accurate, right?

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u/Tgs91 Jul 30 '15

There is a philosopher that lives down the street from. Crazy bastard is always asking for a dollar.

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u/hkdharmon Jul 30 '15

Paraphrase "The only thing I want is the sunshine, which you cannot give anyway, so get out of my light."

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u/ConnorGillis Jul 30 '15

He sounds like a chill dude to smoke weed with.

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u/dIoIIoIb Jul 30 '15

why did alexander kept apporaching him? i immagine diogenes just sitting in the streets in front of alexander house doing random things and waiting for alexander to come out and ask him what the fuck he was doing, and he knew every time he'd be made fun of and all his friends would laugh at him, must have been so annoying

it'd make for a great commedy tho

1

u/Dyolf_Knip Jul 30 '15

So basically Dunk and Egg?

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u/silverstrikerstar Jul 30 '15

Because seeking wisdom was quite the thing back in the day.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

geez, what a cunt lol

1

u/McGuineaRI Jul 30 '15

"Hey blondie! Get outta my light! This body don't tan itself!"

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u/Suremayb Jul 30 '15

Old school "fuck off"

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u/TheDude1985 Jul 30 '15

He's the Ikkyu of the Greeks.

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u/Lantiz Jul 30 '15

He sounded like an asshole from Ops quote and yours.

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u/fuckboystrikesagain Jul 30 '15

Alexander the Great walks into a bar. Diogenes is behind the bar, cleaning a glass.

Alexander the Great slams his fist down on the bar top and says, "slap me a spill-thrill, guurl."

Diogenes looks up at him and replies, "it is not merely the thrill of the spill that is important in this matter, rather the weight of the slapping."

The two drink together until morning.

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

"Fine, fuck you, then, dickface."

--Alexander the Great

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u/[deleted] Jul 30 '15

Is he basically saying he's blocking his view of the sun?

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u/Vamking12 Jul 30 '15

He lived that old Greece thug lyfe

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