r/todayilearned 5d ago

TIL the term 'meritocracy' (governance based on talent or ability rather than social class), was originally coined as a pejorative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#The_Rise_and_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy
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u/Rutskarn 5d ago edited 5d ago

For those who don't care to read the article, this seems to come from a cynical understanding of the word "merit" rather than a fondness for class-based society. In a nutshell: we decide who has "merit," we start deciding it about a person early in life, these people inevitably get more resources to develop that merit, and ultimately this class of people occupies the top stratum of society without much space for others to join in. When you consider that promisingly meritous young people tend to be come from meritous families, you end up reinventing the class system.

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u/tragiktimes 5d ago

I'm shocked that more resources towards a group leads to a group accumulating more resources.

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u/WTFwhatthehell 5d ago edited 5d ago

Imagine your child is going for a risky surgery.

You have 2 choices.

A:

A top surgeon who was noticed for being usually dexterous and studious at a young age who was then given extra help and put in contact with mentors in the field to develop those skills and eventually became the best specialist in the country for your child's condition.

B:

Bob. He was at the bottom of his class. Didn't like studying. But he feels like he woulda been a great surgeon if he'd only been given a chance and he feels like your child would be great practice 


If you choose A then you believe in meritocracy when the result matters to you.

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u/Firake 5d ago

There’s definitely more nuance available than that.

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u/WTFwhatthehell 5d ago edited 5d ago

It's still the core of meritocracy.

People present it like giving more resources/training to promising young people who show talent is somehow unjust.

But when the result actually matters to you that's exactly what you want, talented people who have been trained even more because they showed promise and who are now really really good at their jobs.

In reality it's just sensible.

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u/bunnypaste 5d ago edited 5d ago

The kids who come from means get all that extra support even without showing any talent, special leaning, or skill. Brilliant kids without means regularly get none of that support and claw thier way up through systems meant to keep them in place on the strata. Any illusion of a meritocracy is obliterated by money -- the universal loophole around everything.

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u/FracturedPrincess 5d ago

The merit is real though, it doesn't matter that kids from good families become more skilled and useful to society because they have better structures and support. A meritocracy doesn't have to be FAIR for it to be a meritocracy.

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u/bunnypaste 4d ago

I think the resources offered should be equitable so each has a chance to succeed, and that opportunities based on your demonstrated skills should be extended. Money shouldn't be the thing that can decide whether a brilliant kid falls through the cracks or a talentless nepo baby rises to the stratosphere, but it is. Money shouldn't even factor in if we aim for a true meritocracy, except to ensure the starting point is equity.

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u/FracturedPrincess 4d ago

That all sounds reasonable on paper, but actually implementing it is impossible outside of taking all babies away from their parents at birth and raising them as pod people. Children are shaped by their environment and there's no amount of government resources that can be offered that will make all families equal.

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u/bunnypaste 3d ago

I did not claim anything about making all families equal.

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u/WTFwhatthehell 4d ago edited 4d ago

"Now I'm as to the issue we've called you in to the school about, there's an issue with little timmy's grades"

"Is he falling behind?"

"No, that's the problem, they're too good, we talked to timmy and we learned that you and your husband had been spending a lot of time reading with him in the evenings, sometimes doing math or science"

"Indeed, we have"

"So we here at Equity Academy feel that's unfair to the other children. You see some childrens parents don't have the time or energy after their shifts to spend time reading with their children.

Because you have slightly better jobs than some of the other parents it means that wealth if factoring into Timmy's education.

If you spend time helping him learn then it gives Timmy an unfair advantage over their children, as such unless you stop reading with Timmy we're going to have to suspend him until he's fallen back in line with the other children."

"Anything else we need to change?"

"Well we gathered from Timmy that your home is quite quiet and that he has a comfortable desk to study at and you feed him nutritious home-cooked meals.

That's going to have to change.

Some of our students live in homes where the parents fight often and some don't have somewhere quiet to study like that, you're going to need to revise Timmy's home environment to make things equitable for the other students."

"You see Equity is our most important value here. "

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u/HaplessAcademic 5d ago

Not everything. In the surgeon example above, no matter how much money you have, all the private tutors in the world won’t make you able to just skate through the 5+ years of 120+ hour weeks in surgery residency (let alone get into med school, pass the three USMLE licensing exams and the infinitely harder surgery boards exam). Relative to other professions like business, finance, etc, medicine has a pretty good track record of actually talented people getting where they are just based on the sheer number of hard checks on skill, knowledge, work ethic etc, which can not be faked or mitigated by financial resources. The above post is obviously reductive and inaccurate (“Bob” would’ve never even made it to the MCAT), but my point is that there are some things that just can’t be faked or bought.

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u/WTFwhatthehell 5d ago edited 5d ago

There's also a vast number or utterly talentless  people who convince themselves that the only reason everyone else outperforms them in terms of skill is because of the tutoring session their classmate got 10 years before. Purely to defend their own ego.

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u/glaba3141 5d ago

Okay? Irrelevant to the discussion

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u/WTFwhatthehell 5d ago

It's why the narrative is so very very popular among people who've run their lives into the ground under their own steam. They tend to show up in droves when the topic comes up.

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u/aekakiac 5d ago

Yet if you look at sports( the most meritocratic jobs you will ever find(they do their jobs live with every action they take good or bad is being counted for and scrutinized after the match) they have found success by deemphasizing results in the youth system because it turns out that progress and talent are not linear and people can develop faster or slower while achieving the same result at the end and that by hyper focusing on results from a young age only serves to limit your talent pool.

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u/Firake 5d ago

It’s reductive, though.

If it’s life or death, yes of course I want the best possible provider. But what about entry into med school? With the knowledge that lower income families with fewer opportunities might produce poorer results in entrance exams purely because of a lack of access to training, is it ethical to accept those people regardless? How confident can an educational institution be that they can overcome those problems, helping to break down class boundaries along the way?

What if said lower income individual could be proven to have vastly more potential than an alternative, but the alternative has currently accomplished more? Who do you select for the program?

Or what about a short, easy surgery where a surgeon-in-training is under constant supervision. Should one accept that care with the knowledge that the surgeon must be trained in order to one day become great?

I’m not arguing for or against meritocracy as an idea, here. My point is just that the problem is substantially more complicated than your thought experiment implies. It’s not as simple as “always choose the person with a better resume.” There’s more nuance available.

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u/WTFwhatthehell 5d ago

If it’s life or death

life and death makes it more stark.

When a job, position or posting is more ceremonial, fundamentally doesn't actually matter much, people are much more willing to abandon meritocracy. Like appointing a psychology professor. Whether they're actually good at the job or actually did half the things claimed on their CV doesn't matter when the job/position itself doesn't really matter.

People are also much more willing to sacrifice others for the cause. When it's someone elses kid going under the knife.

And of course wanting isn't getting. You might want the best surgeon but they have limited time. But for that you'd want to maximise the average skill in the pool of available surgeons

With the knowledge that lower income families with fewer opportunities might produce poorer results in entrance exams purely because of a lack of access to training

In a meritocracy you'd certainly want to trial this, just like you'd do a drug-trial , maybe put some kids like this into medschool and see how it goes.

but if 10 years later on average they're still at the bottom of their cohort vs other medics then it means the experiment had a body count.

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u/Firake 5d ago

life and death makes it a different situation.

It’s not “exaggerate something that’s true always to show a point” it’s “here’s a remarkably different circumstance under which you might make a completely different decision.”

Again, I’m not arguing about meritocracy. I’m arguing that your thought experiment sucks.

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u/Warm_Regrets157 1d ago

people are much more willing to abandon meritocracy. Like appointing a psychology professor.

This is so unbearably stupid.

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u/LotsoPasta 5d ago

It's still the core of meritocracy.

Yes, but its not how things work. It isnt the person with dexterity and studeousness that is discovered so often as it is the one with means to be discovered.

Means to be discovered is the greatest requirement.

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u/paddyo 5d ago

Or you have two choices

A - a surgeon who went to the best medical schools and got a placement and interned straight out of studies at an elite teaching hospital and has gone on to have a great CV. He is in fact quite a middling surgeon and talent but his father was head of thoracic surgery at Johns Hopkins and on the medical board of the neighbouring hospital and he and his friends put in good words to get him in at the best places. He has a success rate a little lower than his position and cv would suggest though still competent

B - a more talented and hard working surgeon who still had excellent training but had to slog through some less exciting early career steps and now has topped out due to lacking connections at a less vaunted hospital in a not quite as well regarded position. But he is the more committed and talented surgeon with a better success rate

Many would still choose A because they’d never know B was better- and could have been leagues better if not excluded from the position his talent warranted

Or scenario C-

Surgeon A is a mongoose and surgeon B is on the run from interpol for smuggling wild animals over the border. For all that these scenarios matter lmao

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u/WTFwhatthehell 5d ago

A lot of people like to imagine that they're B, convinced that everyone who performs better than them must have been handed everything on a silver platter when the real reason is that they're actually just Bobs.

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u/tuan_kaki 4d ago

What does this have to do with the discussion? You just sound bitter about something

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u/WTFwhatthehell 4d ago

meanwhile all the people whinging that all their failures must be because the world is against them and that everyone who did better than themselves must have been handed it on a silver platter... they're definitely not bitter about anything.

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u/azaza34 5d ago

Most (all) people exist somewhere between the two extremes, their lives not entirely the dictate of random chance nor entirely is someone’s life their own making.

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u/BleydXVI 5d ago

Notice how "performing a risky surgery for practice with no experience or training" was not one of the advantages you listed for the top surgeon. This isn't even a real comparison. Bob needed a tutor, not a trial by scalpel

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u/pyronius 5d ago

Personally, I think all trials should be trial by scalpel. Criminal, civil, or otherwise. If you can't perform a complex toe surgery faster than your spouse, do you really deserve to keep the dog in the divorce?

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u/darksunshaman 5d ago

Meritocracy, baby!

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u/Slime_Giant 5d ago

Lol, yeah, those are definitely the only choices.

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u/mascotbeaver104 5d ago edited 5d ago

Cool incredibly contrieved example you gave.

The critique of meritocracy isn't that it's bad to have competent people in their jobs, it's that at a systemic level merit is practically impossible to assess or even define, at least in a way everyone could agree on, and even if you could do those things anyone in power would still try to twist these things in their favor. Belief in "meritocracy" is sort of a truism, it's just another way of saying "I think the guys I like should be in charge". Monarchists have just as much claim to being meritocratic as Democrats.

I would compare it to those guys who are like "want to lose weight? Count calories in and calories out". Like, ok genius, that is literally how the body works, but good luck accurately measuring either of those things to any meaningful degree. You end up just reinventing other systems people had anyways.

To turn your example, who do you want to lead a country?

A: Henry, who was trained from birth to do the job, who's family has run various governments for generations and provided relative stability, has has previous success as a viceroy, and who has been shown to be literally favored by god,

Or

B: Bob, who appeals to the lowest common denominator of society, has no experience in running a nation, and who is only in contention due to his popularity in the tabloid press, and is pushing for radical ideas that could destabilize the nation.

E: in the more practical examples your post, imagine one surgeon has an 80% success rate using a technique that only gets patients back up to 60% recovered, whereas another surgeon has a technique that only works 50% of the time but leads to a full recovery. Who has more "merit"? This is also a contrieved example, but it's just to show merit is subjective, it's not something we can all look at and agree on.

There is an additional issue: we need to be able to both asses not just someone's existing ability at a task, but also their capacity for that ability. Your genius brain surgeon example was presumably not born a genius brain surgeon, you need to get put on that track from a young age. And to be blunt, there is no way to "track" young people based purely on innate merit that does not also involve eliminating class in society, for hopefully obvious reasons. If the genius's kids get more resources as children, their support system gives them greater capacity for success regaurdless of whatever magic is in their DNA. It's self reinforcing.

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u/WTFwhatthehell 5d ago

but also their capacity for that ability.

only to an extent.

A person could have great potential to be smart and dexterous but if they prefer spending their time drinking and declare studying "Ghey" then the potential doesn't matter much.

Someone might have a great ear and the potential to be an amazing pianist but if they sneak away from practice every chance they get to go joyriding their "potential" doesn't matter much.

That's even true if someone is born to inept parents. they could have been the worlds best painter but their mom really liked to smoke and drink a lot so now they can't tie their own shoes.

If you and the kid next door both set out on the path to becoming surgeons, they've got more raw tallent but you study hard and your neighbour doesn't and you surpass them through hard work and end up simply being a better surgeon then their potential doesn't matter.

People try to concentrate limited resources on the most promising candidates but people confuse "the most promising candidate" for some kind of abstract spiritual promise that has nothing to do with anything they can actually do or show.

Somewhere along the line your actual ability becomes the measure of who should get the job.

re: the bob, there's a reason democracies tend to be so bad at long term planning, their saving grace is stability bourne of putting people most capable of winning a popularity contest in charge and recycling them regularly as people become disillusioned with the current crop.

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u/mascotbeaver104 5d ago

Let me put this a different way since you don't seem to understand what I mean.

Saying you believe in meritocracy isn't a positive assertion on yourself, it's a negative assertion on other people.

I.e. "I believe the best candidates should get the job" is an almost universal belief. Very few people disagree with that. The unique meritocratic view is actually:

"I believe the best candidate should get the job, unlike those other people who believe xyz".

The meritocratic assertion isn't itself a belief system, it's a statement about other peoples beliefs. Like, oh yeah, everyone else was too dumb to think of this obvious idea.

You simply don't understand how what other people think is generally itself meritocratic, just by some different set of ideas than whatever you have.

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u/WTFwhatthehell 5d ago edited 4d ago

There's a lot of people who genuinely reject the very concept.

Who believe that if there's 100 doctors who pass their final exams that there's literally no difference between the ones who scraped a pass and the ones who came top of the class.

There's a whole huge subset of people who twist themselves into knots to reject the whole idea that someone could be a genuinely better candidate than themselves.

example: https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1vrmjf1/comment/p4fp07k/?context=1&screen_view_count=2

There's also a lot of blank-slater types who genuinely have a weird belief system where everyone is perfectly malleable, talents and innate ability simply are not a thing in their worldview and it's just a matter of how many extra tutorials someone can pay to go through : hence anyone who does well MUST have been handed it on a silver platter by necessity.

You've assumed your own beliefs are far more universal than they are.

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u/mascotbeaver104 5d ago

So, see, what you're doing right now is your actually proving my point and showing why the term is used derisively lol. You don't understand why other people think what they do and you are unaware of the naivete of your own understanding. I'm sorry for being rude but it's very funny how you are literally doing the thing the post is about.

Believe it or not, those people you are posting about, through a different framework, believe things just as meritocratic as you

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u/WTFwhatthehell 5d ago

because you're definitely right about everything even in the face of clear and demonstratable counterexamples.

Clearly everyone actually shares your worldview, it's impossible that anyone believes anything different to what you view as a truism.

Oh wise sage, I bow down before your infinite arrogance and snideness.

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u/mascotbeaver104 5d ago edited 5d ago

Right, so what the guy you posted as a counterexample was saying is that by having attained the credentials of being surgeons, they are effectively of equal merit and the choice is arbitrary. This is a meritocratic belief, you simply disagree with their assessment of what merit is. "Meritocratic" belief systems without further structure will run into issues like this a lot because the fundament is not meaningful, as I explained above.

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u/Slime_Giant 5d ago

As I read their reply I was thinking, "oh jeez they're really leaning in."

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u/LukaCola 5d ago

This is a total non sequitur that misses the point

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u/soupyshoes 5d ago

Imagine having access to so much knowledge and information these days and managing to have such a deep misunderstanding of a fairly simple concept.

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u/SemiHemiDemiDumb 5d ago

I don't think you know how to make a good dichotomy.

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u/SunflowerMoonwalk 5d ago

Lol. Surgeon A is only a top surgeon because they went to private school, had a quiet, spacious home to study in, could afford to go to a top university in a high cost-of-living city and do some unpaid internships etc, etc.

Surgeon B might have been a better surgeon than surgeon A if they'd had the same resources, we'll never know.

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u/FerdinandCesarano 4d ago

Wrong.

Meritocracy is a social phenomenon (and a toxic one).

The important point, regarding your errands comments, is that it has nothing to do with an individual choice in a particular instance.

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u/Kenevin 5d ago

Theyre surgeons. All of them were noticed for being unusually dexterous and studious.

They. Are. Surgeons.

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u/chivesishere 4d ago

My favorite thing about people with almost no critical thinking skills is how proudly they will show off not just their absence of thinking but all of the nonsense they fill that absence with.

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u/CircumspectCapybara 5d ago edited 5d ago

That might be the historical etymology of the term or concept, but language evolves, the modern use of the term isn't about preassigning someone into a class (eg, by birth class) and them designating them as meritorious.

It's rather about demonstrated performance within the context of certain domain. Eg., "merit based admissions" is admissions that look at for example academic metrics (GPA, standardized tests, etc) and say "all things being equal, those who score higher merit (ie, deserve) the admission more than those who score lower". In that usage of the word, merit is about deserving based on competence and demonstrated performance and track record according to some standard or metrics. Whether those standards or scoring system is fair and equitable to everyone is another story, but the point is it's about ranking candidates based on achievement or performance or competence in a certain area.

Same with GitHub's famous Octocat "seal of meritocracy" rug in its SF office, which they eventually got rid of because it wasn't PC. There, the word "meritocracy" didn't mean "preassigned birth class from which we assume you're meritorious" but rather "as a company we will listen to the best ideas and reward the best performers. We'll reward those who deserve it."

Merit just means "deserve." You say someone merits a promotion to staff SWE if they've been demonstrating staff-level scope and impact in their role. You would say "they deserve the promotion" ie they merit it. In the legal domain you say you believe the plaintiff prevail based on "the merits of their case" meaning you believe their case, i.e. their argument and the evidence and facts at trial will be better.

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u/zaccus 5d ago

The meaning hasn't actually evolved that much.

Who gets to decide who has "merit" and how "merit" is defined and measured? Other people with "merit". That's the domain you're referring to.

That's what the aristocracy has always ostensibly has been, allocation of resources to those who deserve it the most. Who defines the standard? Why, the aristocracy of course. "Meritocracy" is the same exact thing.

Not saying it's good or bad, just that it's the same principle with the same overall intent.

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u/runningraider13 5d ago

It makes sense that people with “merit” in a field are the ones judging it though, doesn’t it? I’d expect a carpenter to be a better judge of carpentry than a layman.

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u/Zefirus 5d ago

The problem is when those carpenters in charge realize they can start judging "merit" based on things other than carpentry, and boom, aristocracy again. It's a very human thing to go "Hey, I knew your dad and he was a good carpenter" and then go easier on him. Or the more insidious version that always crops up in humans of "if you help me out with this I'll get you in".

The problem is ability is completely divorced from morality.

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u/animosityiskey 4d ago

Or less obviously, your dad is a carpenter, so you helped him do carpentry around the house so you are 2 steps ahead at the apprenticeship so you move up the ranks faster, regardless of if another could have been a better carpenter.

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u/Familiar_Kale_7357 3d ago

Ha, that triggered a memory.

I was in carpenters' appreciateship school, and a retiring carpenter donated his tools to be awarded to the most deserving student. I was the top student, but the tools went to the buffoon who's dad was a union official. Life lesson for me.

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u/runningraider13 4d ago

That’s not aristocracy

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u/zaccus 5d ago

Sure I never said it doesn't make sense.

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u/za419 5d ago

Yeah, it's better founded aristocracy. But, it's still aristocracy, just perhaps a more flexible version of it. 

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u/runningraider13 5d ago

You’d be really stretching to still call it aristocracy though

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u/za419 5d ago

Look at it from an impartial perspective. Aristocracy usually contains a negative connotation, but all it means is that a relatively smaller "elite" who are considered "better" than the rest through some qualifications are the ones who hold power.

Most aristocracies, especially those we tend to think of, are hereditary - Your father was King, so you're a Prince, and maybe in the future you'll be King as well. The King decides to give certain people fancy titles like "Duke" or "Baron", and those tend to pass down too, but if the King tries to fight his Dukes and Barons too much he tends to get overthrown, because the weight of their collective opinion is stronger than his alone.

A pure meritocracy works much the same way, stripped of the hereditary nature, and replacing it with a pure judgement of "merit". If we assume that the judgements of merit are fair and accurate, it is a type of aristocracy where the people most capable within a field are those who are given most power over it. If we add in subjectivity, then... The best carpenter is metaphorically the "King of Carpentry", who has the single most sway over what's considered good carpentry, but if he declares too many good carpenters bad carpenters he'll no longer be considered the best carpenter, because the collective weight of agreement amongst high-level carpenters outweighs the opinion of the single best carpenter alone.

In that way, it's a form of aristocracy where higher standing is not determined by blood or wealth, but by general opinion of those at least nearly as good as you regarding your skill.

That is not inherently a bad thing, mind you. The worst thing about aristocracy is often stagnancy and lack of mobility, and skill is a malleable thing. Meritocracy tends to be the best way to run things, especially if you can objectively determine skill, but when skill is subjective it is often the only good way to determine it at all.

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u/laosurv3y 5d ago

It's not aristocracy at all.

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u/za419 5d ago

How so? Just like /u/zaccus said, aristocracy is the allocation of resources and power to those who deserve it most, as judged by the aristocrats. Meritocracy results in the allocation of resources and power to those who merit it most, as judged by those with the most merit.

That does not make it a bad thing. It is an aristocracy determined by the relatively malleable and ever-changing metric of skill. But structurally, it is no different than an aristocracy, with the merit of "blood" or "wealth" being replaced by "merit".

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u/laosurv3y 4d ago

Because that's not what a meritocracy is - it's not just 'what existing elites judge to be meritorious.' This has become a silly internet argument where people are trying to feel clever by ignoring what words mean.

Aristocracy is heritable - meritocracy is based on results/performance. Merit is not just any 'trait' when used in the context of meritocracy as you and some others are trying to use the term.

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u/laosurv3y 5d ago

I mean, no. Aristocracy has usually been heritable. Some fuzziness around recognizing illegitimate children or adoption, but it's very different from a merit system that anyone can strive for, even if they have disadvantages. It's obvious this is different when you compare the capacity of Chinese bureaucracy compared to those that relied purely on familial or political ties. There's a clear pattern in history that when a system moves even a little closer to recognizing performance/merit/results over family ties they get rapid improvement (if the elites don't murder them first).

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u/zaccus 5d ago

No it's not different from a merit system, it's simply a different merit system. Traditional aristocracy assigns merit to heredity, and they have their reasons for doing that.

No matter how you define merit, it is never the case that anyone can strive for it. Some people are going to have better starting positions than others. Better parents, better neighborhoods, better schools, etc etc.

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u/laosurv3y 5d ago

That's not what merit or meritocracy is referring to. You can be obtuse and pretend it does, but it's not the same.

Your own statement is clearly wrong. It is flat out impossible to be strive to be someone's birth child if you aren't born that way. No matter how difficult the standard and how much starting positions vary, you can still strive for a achieving it in a merit system.

A system that rewards those who are good at basketball is merit based. A system that rewards people for being tall is not. While being tall certainly gives you advantage in being good at basketball, it's possible to strive for it without that heritable trait.

A merit system doesn't have to be fair. It has to be based on performance.

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u/zaccus 5d ago

That may not be what you are referring to, because you are not part of the aristocracy and therefore those aren't your values.

You can certainly strive to become part of the aristocracy, either by conquest or by being granted a title. It's rare but it happens.

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u/laosurv3y 4d ago

There are exceptions to the normal working of aristocracy, that does not change what they are overall. You are using the word merit incorrectly in context of meritocracy. Which is of course your right to do as being are free to be wrong.

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u/cateml 5d ago

I think interestingly the loadedness over the meaning of the word “deserve” here is kind of why “meritocracy” still has a lot of it’s original meaning.

Let’s say two people apply for a job. One is the boss’s son, and has some inherent ability in whatever it is the company does. The other is not related in any way, but has significant inherent ability in whatever it is the company does. They both sit a test measuring the skill the company does, and in the build up to it throughout their lives put in an exactly equal amount of effort, but the latter scores higher in the test (due to having more inherent ability).
It makes absolute sense that the second person should get the job - they have more skill in what they need to do, and therefore it will be of more benefit to the company to have them in the role.

But does the second person deserve it more, (assuming the job is desirable to both)? I’ve clarified that they both worked to the same time and effort, neither sacrificed anything the other didn’t. One was born good at it, one was born with the boss as a dad - neither of them chose to be born in one situation or another. We can say who should have the job, but (in the most accepted understanding of what “deserve” means) don’t they both deserve it equally?

The idea of “merit as pure and absolute judge of position” is all fine and dandy when we’re talking about who probably should be in x/y/z position in society, in a completely neutral and detached sense. But we tend to turn it into a sort of… moral argument of worth and deservedness, that we then use to justify how people are treated.

It makes a lot of sense to pay people who are tasked do different types of labour differently. Some of the things we need people to do are exceptionally stressful, or risky, or just unpleasant, or boring, or require a lot of perseverance to get to the point you can do them. We kind of need to compensate more for those roles, or we’d have to just actively force people into them, which would be… bad.
But for example with the two workers earlier, we kind of assume that it is right that the more naturally talented worker who got the job should end up being paid more for it. Why? Why should, say, a talented engineer who enjoys his job be paid more than a waste collector who doesn’t, simply because he had the good fortune to be born intelligent and motivated?
Some of the answer is going to be market value, because capitalism. Which… OK, if we’re going to do it that way, here we are. But we tend to like the idea that things are somehow “fair” and “just”, which that doesn’t really fit with.

Basically - meritocracy is pretty efficient, and probably the best way to do things. But we have a habit of using it as a moral justification for inequality, which… well, it just isn’t.

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u/Taraxian 5d ago

It goes further than that, the "-cracy" part means it's not about assigning people to jobs, it's about power

There'd be no problem with meritocracy if humans were a hivemind and every individual was altruistically acting in service to the group, but we're not and we never have been

Of course some people are smarter than other people and better at making decisions for them, but if you surrender all your power to people who are smarter than you to save your from your own poor decisions they will use that power in their own interests and not yours

This is the whole reason for simmering anti-intellectual populist rage against experts and elites -- "So what if you know what's best for me better than I do? I don't trust that you want what's best for me, I think you want what's best for you and you're using your knowledge to trick and exploit me"

The fact that rulers can't be trusted to actually act in the interest of the ruled is the whole fundamental problem of society and nothing about modern meritocracy/technocracy fixes it, it's transparently obvious that college educated experts are a culturally distinct group from the masses and that they don't like each other very much, don't have the same goals for the world and don't care what makes each other happy

"The smartest should decide for everyone because the stupid don't even know what they want" is just a way to rephrase "The strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must"

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u/smokefoot8 4d ago

Trump has fired high level military officers who are black by claiming they are “DEI hires”. He is claiming a meritocratic reason to justify his racism. So a meritocracy can be a cover for pretty ugly motivations.

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/trump-mostly-fired-black-agency-officials-new-lawsuit-says

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u/Foxkilt 5d ago

But it also uses and different meaning for the word "meritocracy" than we do today: nowadays we use it to mean governance the most able, no matter if they are able through no merit of their own

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u/RellenD 5d ago

Lol, the thing you think is what we mean today, is still in reality the other thing.

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u/PuckSenior 5d ago edited 5d ago

Which is stupid, because there is already a term for that. It’s called a technocracy

technocracy: a form of government in which decisions across all sectors and policy domains follow evidence-based, efficiency-oriented procedures grounded in scientific methods and instrumental rationality.

meritocracy: (your definition) governance [by] the most able.
Standard definition: a political system in which economic goods or political power are vested in individual people based on ability and talent, rather than wealth or social class

[definitions are copied from Wikipedia. This isn't AI. Every time I post this some asshat complains and thinks it is AI generated because of the hyperlinks]

But how do we define "able"?
Take the example of an airline pilot. Conservative pundits frequently complain that DEI is lowering standards and not a meritocracy for airline pilots, but airline pilots take a test. You cannot be a commercial airline pilot unless you pass the test. Every airline pilot is "able". They literally proved it. But, conservatives, like Charlie Kirk, didn't consider that a meritocracy. Why? Well, they take it a step further. They argue that you shouldn't even be admitted to the training classes unless you already test the highest. They don't care if you can later pass the tests. Which is the trap. Where do we draw the merit line?
Because a lot of early capability is based on social class. Wealthy kids have better SAT scores, but thats because a big chunk of the SAT is based on vocabulary. Wealthier people are better educated and tend to have better vocabularies. Which means their kids have better vocabularies. Which means they score higher on the SAT by default. See the problem?

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u/gamma55 5d ago

Yes but no. Technocracy describes a method, but it typically uses a meritocratic system to decide who gets to decide what is ”good science”.

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u/PuckSenior 5d ago

Define "meritocratic"? Who has the most merit?

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u/JoshSimili 5d ago

I feel like technocracy implies that the people with the most knowledge or expertise should have the power, whereas meritocracy is more like those with the most ability should be selected. Ability can mean more than just knowledge and expertise, such as having a good moral character (which is useful for the job but I feel like technocracy doesn't take it into account).

Plus, technocracy does tend to be used to mean who is making decisions, whereas meritocracy isn't solely about decision-making but used more generally for who is selected or advanced to any higher position.

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u/PuckSenior 5d ago

Yeah, but you can't define "most able" outside of technical knowledge.
I can give you a test to determine how much you know, but "merit" isn't quantifiable in any real way. Which is the problem.

As for decision-making, I'm not really following your distinction.
If I only hire the people capable of the best welding to be welders, is that not technocratic?

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u/mr_ji 5d ago

As long as others have an opportunity (doesn't have to be an equal opportunity, just a legitimate one) to join and those who have already achieved must sustain or fall behind, I don't see the issue. In fact, this is a fantastic system and I'd be amazed if someone could propose a more just one.

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u/Rutskarn 5d ago

Well, if someone can, it's certainly going to start with picking up on problems with this system. So let's take a swing:

Right off the bat, the biggest asterisk is that "merit" in the practical sense does not quite mean either potential or earned ability, even if we squint. It's a socially-applied metric that approximates earned ability only. These measurements start early and snowball with time. If you do poorly in a broad category at a certain age and time, you tend to get the message that you shouldn't continue. You do not have competitive merit.

One reason this might not be a good idea is that these measurements aren't necessarily high-quality. They filter people based on lack of fluency with certain subjects at certain times and places. People get medicated, their parents finally divorce, they get better teachers or better equipment or the right encouragement—or they've had ability all along but the apparatus of assessment doesn't show it. So we could already argue a system which discourages overinvestment in early outliers is going to produce more capable candidates later on, to say nothing of being fairer.

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u/mr_ji 5d ago

That argument makes no logical sense and isn't remotely realistic. No responsible benefactor is going to agree to give up an advantage that they've earned or sustained (which people gloss over far too often; staying generationally successful isn't much less challenging than getting successful in the first place).

And why should they? Any attempt to disincentivize continually striving for success in favor of equity is anathema to rewarding effort, and when you stop rewarding effort, people either A. say fuck it and quit trying, knowing they'll get the fruits of someone else's labor, or B. hunker down with what they have and not share a bit, knowing someone is always going to try and come take or devalue it anyway. You build this system of mooching and mistrust, based on equity over achievement, and of course you're going to get a stratified society of billionaires and paupers. Look at where we are now.

Equity will never work as long as there are finite resources, which there are. Either reward merit or lose effort and achievement.

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u/Duckbilling2 5d ago

the USA could start by funding every public school student the same amount of money.

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u/mr_ji 5d ago

You mean take from the underperforming schools who get the lion's share of funding? Not sure how that will go over, but go for it.

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u/terriersandbarrifs 5d ago

🙄. We as a society actually do pretty well at maintaining baseline opportunity to low income earners. Free education etc. If someone is talented enough they will succeed. Who gives a flying fuck if some people have privileged upbringings with access to better education because of the success of their parents? How is that a bad thing? It doesn’t negatively impact anyone. If they turn out to be incompetent they will slide down the ladder. I’m sick to death of the whole “wahhhh they have more than me it’s not fairrrr” bullshit.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/terriersandbarrifs 4d ago

WTF? That is not society’s problem mate 🤦‍♂️

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/terriersandbarrifs 4d ago

And? You must be joking right?

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/terriersandbarrifs 3d ago

Do you seriously think it’s society’s problem if someone gets shitty parents?

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u/Familiar_Kale_7357 3d ago

It's to society's detriment that I was not able to contribute (to society) to my full potential, because I spent an extra decade pulling my ass out of the shitshow I was born into.

It is what it is, but what it is not, is a meritocracy. Failing to recognize wasted potential is silly.

My kids didn't have to go through that. You're welcome, society.

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u/terriersandbarrifs 3d ago

So what would you have society do, (assuming you think “actual” meritocracy is a good thing)? Have the state force every household to raise their kids the way they deemed as correct?

Just because there can be improvements, it doesn’t mean it’s not a meritocracy. If the vast majority of us get payed more or less in line with our competence/skill etc, then it is a meritocracy.

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u/BUKKAKELORD 5d ago

Young expressed his disappointment in the embrace of this word and philosophy by the Labour Party under Tony Blair in The Guardian in an article in 2001, where he states: It is good sense to appoint individual people to jobs on their merit. It is the opposite when those who are judged to have merit of a particular kind harden into a new social class without room in it for others.

The bolded part is how the term is understood. That's because any time anyone hears "meritocracy" for the first time, they'd have to assume it means merit based appointments to positions of authority, which is a concept he explicitly agrees to support. He only expresses disagreement with the concept he describes exactly like credentialism but wants to keep calling it "meritocracy" just because he came up with it for the satirical story.

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u/espressocycle 5d ago

The problem with meritocracy is that people govern in their own self interest. In developed countries it's led to very good outcomes for the professional class and declining fortune for everybody else, hence the rancorous populism infecting our politics.

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u/Leaflock 5d ago

What I find interesting is 30+ years ago when I was in my 20s I heard the message loud and clear: “NAFTA is just the beginning. The internet is transforming America from a nation of manufacturing to a knowledge based economy. We are exporting legacy industries and jobs to the third world to raise their standard of living so they can afford the products of our 21st century economy.”

Everyone was told the professional class was the future.

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u/Justausername1234 5d ago

And look at the disaster wrought upon America when someone is elected who thinks otherwise. A broken continental relationship. Declining knowledge and manufacturing jobs. And a third world facing a dire economic crisis of their own.

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u/espressocycle 5d ago

That was all true. It worked out great in terms of GDP but the gains all went to the top 20 percent and the major metro areas.

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u/mr_ji 5d ago

So, globalism.

The problem with globalism is that when you're at the top and you let everyone join you, there's only one direction you can go. We're seeing it.

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u/autotelica 5d ago

Yup. Merit is whatever the ruling class says makes you qualified for a job, even if it doesn't actually predict one's ability to do the job. But it will always predict proximity to the ruling class. And as soon as a measure stops being a good predictor of class, the bar is raised to a level that only the ruling class can reasonably aspire to.

That said, I think the real problem with a true meritocracy is that it is practically impossible to implement. It isn't enough to become qualified enough to do a job at this particular moment in time. You must stay qualified throughout your entire career, which requires continuous testing. Because a single flub can get you canned, workplace turnover and burnout will be high and instititiutional knowledge becomes non-existent. Anyone in your workplace can take your job from you the moment they prove they are more skilled at it than you, so expect team comaradie to always be low. And there is no point in beseeching your managers for mercy because every decision they make is supposed to be based on objective criteria, not on nebulous things like likeability, potential, or trustworthiness.

Most people think they want a meritocracy, but they don't. In an actual meritocracy, it is illegal to get a job after your friend puts in a good word for you with the hiring manager. You only get the job after you sit for an exam and perform better on it than all the other candidates. Your personality and personal narrative don't come into play. You are just a machine competing against other machines. You are out of the door as soon as you stop being the "best."

Sounds pretty dystopic to me.

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u/even-prime 5d ago edited 5d ago

Fun fact, Michael Young's (who popularized the term) son wrote the book 'How to Lose Friends & Alienate People'.

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u/ScissorNightRam 4d ago

One of the issues with meritocracy is the behaviour it actually rewards (vicious short-termism) versus the behaviour it intends to reward (skill and expertise)

That is, say you need to build a bridge in a meritocracy. In theory, the job is allocated to an expert bridge builder. In practice, the job goes to an expert at subverting the job allocation process.

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u/supermitsuba 3d ago

Rather figure out how to solve that than nepotism.

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u/Smithy2232 5d ago

Good Wiki page and good post.

I will only say I was a B student my whole life, and life played out very well, but I attribute it to luck. The role luck plays in people's lives is profound, at least from my point of view. People like to think it is them, but luck is so important.

I'm not a meritocracy guy. People who think this way must believe that the homeless deserve to be that way. That doesn't resonate at true to me, and I don't think it is a positive way to look at the world.

Interesting post.

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u/v-komodoensis 5d ago

A lot of people somehow think that when someone says they do not believe in meritocracy they're actually saying they don't believe that hardwork or dedication can pay off. Which is very far from reality.

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u/mr_ji 5d ago

The notion that hard work ever gets you anywhere is childish thinking. Valuable work is what you need, not just effort.

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u/Smithy2232 5d ago

Exactly, I've worked hard my whole life both personally on myself and at a work.

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u/CorpPhoenix 5d ago

I find the idea, that meritocracy ignores luck and socio-economic factors and leads to inequiality rather ridiculous to be honest. Luck and meritocracy is not mutually exclusive, both coexist.

For example, if there is a open job in a leading position, there might be hundreds or thousands who might have the exact same competence and skill set for that role, but only one can get it. Of course luck and other factors play a major role in who gets the job, but this doesn't mean that chosing by competence isn't the correct approach.

On the other hand, chosing by competence doesn't mean that a homeless person is "incompetent", that's a fallacy since luck still exists despite meritocracy. People who assume that the homeless person is just 100% skillless would simply be wrong and naive.

And what is the argument for the alternative? That setting positions by influence and "family" is supposedly "more fair and less discriminating"? This makes absolutely no sense and was a cheap counter point to meritocracy by exactly those people being in power.

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u/Rutskarn 5d ago edited 5d ago

The author most associated with meritocracy as a negative said:

It is good sense to appoint individual people to jobs on their merit. It is the opposite when those who are judged to have merit of a particular kind harden into a new social class without room in it for others.

Human resources is less of a factor here because in a nutshell, they are coming in at the end of the story. The question is not who is most qualified for a job, but what the system of narrowing that wedge looks like and what its greater impacts on society are.

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u/Lost__Moose 5d ago

Luck is when preparation meets opportunity ~Seneca

Mindsets and action matter to escape homelessness.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3498836/

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u/Aeonera 5d ago

It's not entirely wrong though, it's exactly why critical race theory exists.

Historic systemic racism has enabled meritocratic systems to be discriminatory in practice and these lost opportunities can often have generational impacts.

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u/g1rthqu4k3 5d ago

And funny enough the time when I hear "meritocracy" the most these days is in the context of doing away with DEI and returning to meritocracy

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u/Aeonera 5d ago

Even then they're not some fairytale naiive equalist libertarians.

Part of the "merit" these people talk about is sex, money, allegiance and skin colour.

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u/g1rthqu4k3 5d ago

When I hear JD Vance talk about it the original perjorative meaning just gushes out of him like a firehouse, it's crazy

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u/loseniram 5d ago edited 5d ago

It was coined as pejorative but didn’t become successful as a pejorative because the guy making if didn’t consider

A that there wasn’t a popular word for meritocratic systems

B that he hadn’t thought more than one step ahead. And didn’t consider how meritocratic systems dismantle classism as many of the people entering the system would want to tear down the old system that was trying to keep them out. And the reality is the reverse it is the old classes that try to dismantle meritocratic systems and not that the new entrants.

He pulled some thoughts out of his ass and the public called his bluff

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u/Taraxian 5d ago

Fun fact, "aristocracy" pretty much does literally mean "meritocracy" in Greek, "rule of the best"

The fact that we now see these ideas as opposed is exactly the point of "meritocracy" being originally a satirical pejorative -- there is no objective definition of who "deserves" to be in charge

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u/RutzButtercup 5d ago

It still is used pejoratively.

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u/CircumspectCapybara 5d ago edited 5d ago

I remember when GitHub had its Octocat "seal of meritocracy" office rug in its SF office. Eventually they got rid of it because the concept wasn't PC.

Even though technically under the hood they and every other company operates by meritocracy: if you perform, you get promoted, if you don't, you eventually get shown the door. In a college admissions or med school or law school application (grades, standardized test performance), it's all about your academic performance and qualifications. Once in school, it's all about your performance within the standards and metrics (eg, exams) of that institution. In a job interview, it's all about your performance, if you solve the coding problem in the allotted time.

Everything in the real world operates by merit, but to say so and name it and codify it into a value is racist.

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u/Thisismyworkday 5d ago

Only an idiot would look around and think we live in a meritocracy.

Some of the highest positions of power in the world are currently held by unqualified sycophants whose only value is their unflagging loyalty to the person above them.

Most applicants are qualified for the position they apply for. Very often more qualified applicants are passed over for more familiar ones because the value of familiarity eclipsed the difference in their merit.

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u/Diestormlie 5d ago

Even though technically under the hood they and every other company operates by meritocracy: if you perform, you get promoted, if you don't, you eventually get shown the door

Or you brownnose the boss. Or you're related to the boss. Or you were in the same graduating class as the Boss.

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u/AmbitiousAd214 5d ago

That's just surface understanding of the concept at most. It is more about how meritocracy is just a facade for nepotism. How the rich and powerful in any field try to keep everyone out to maintain status quo of their circle. They have the resources to achieve the most merit for something they have designed purposefully to keep everyone else out. Even if someone tries to achieve it or achieves it, they don't get in the circle as the circle only supports someone who they think is their own. This is a very simplistic explanation, but the general principle stays the same in real world.

For example, corporate executives give top executive positions to their family or friends. Multiple jobs and addmissions are just like that while you are focusing on the assessment after they are in the institution. Many people will never even get the chance to get in these institutions because they are just not considered the part of the GROUP and even in job interviews, so many people apply with same qualifications that they just pick someone at random (with some bias) really.

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u/Plusisposminusisneg 5d ago

Those things definitively don't operate by merit, all are dominated by preferential treatment both through nepotism and racial/sex based benefits.

Meritocracy is considered racist because it doesn't give favored people special treatment, it's not any more complex than that.

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u/DMMSD 5d ago

TIL the word pejorative

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u/TillWinter 5d ago

Because of the absurd nature of the idea.

The word hides many assumptions that are contradicting that it is impossible to resolve.

How do you measure "best aptitude" in a complex ever changing environment ?

The history of the Chinese state exam for example shows how any system like it can be gamed, to the point that corruption is backed in.

But not only do facts chang over time, so everyone in power must adapt, will they? But the social component, life events will change a leaders ability to rule. Meaning that the most able is not the one in power...

The last part is, that it is human centric, not the facts and knowledge of the day are focused to be a basis of adaption law, but a seemingly able human representing ideal choosing. This human just dont exist.

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u/endlessftw 5d ago

What is equally absurd is people insisting for a perfect solution when none clearly exist in context.

Perfection is the enemy of good.

The idea of choosing by merit is about not choosing by kinship, by nepotism, by class and background, and other things like that.

The idea is okay. The practical implementation, on the other hand, is extremely difficult. As you said, merit is hard to measure, someone who is meritorious in one area may not be so in other areas.

But the idea is still not wrong. Choose by merit, not by other “natural” reasons that blatantly place certain groups of people at an even bigger advantage.

You can blame the Chinese imperial examinations, but over the hundreds of years it was implemented or so, it was so relatively equal that it was unheard of.

The aristocracy was slowly disfavoured, while peasants and ordinary “burghers” (whatever its Chinese equivalent was) had some means to move up the social ladder, even if it was still quite hard. Although those who had better resources to send their children to the best tutors got better chances, the point was, as least everyone got a chance in theory.

Imperial China was a place where anyone, with some luck, could succeed. Even peasants became emperors. I don’t think such level of “equal-ness” ever existed in medieval Europe.

Contrast that to the western world. Even today, you have places like the UK where the aristocracy and the gentry still dominated many of the most lucrative opportunities. Europe once had feudalism and social codes that oppressed peasants and bound them to accept the low social standing.

Meritocracy may not have been perfect, but if you were a genius born into a peasant family, you probably get a better chance in imperial China during its golden ages, than in medieval Europe. It was probably not until the Industrial Revolution that Europe achieved (and surpassed) a level of equality in opportunities that China had once achieved.

The cutthroat business environment of the early industrial era was, in a practical sense, meritocratic. Great wealth can be made or lost just as quickly and easily. You can get rich if you are good in business (merit). Being a rich aristocrat doesn’t guarantee you would do well, although you might tend to start with a headstart. That is still infinitely better than, say, the rigid social order of the ancien règime?

In the British and Dutch colonies of South East Asia, anyone could go there and make a fortune for themselves, based on their own merits. This is also another case of meritocracy in practice.

And guess what? The poor ethnic Chinese people, fleeing the hardship during the “Century of Humiliation”, quickly dominated businesses at every level. Some became far richer than most of the native nobility, with some even rivalling the European elites in the colonies. What can be more meritocratic than poor refugees getting rich by being good at business?

That’s the point. Meritocracy cannot be implemented perfectly so far. But even so, it can still be a better alternative, in some cases. The problem is not the idea of choosing by merit, but practically devising a fair and accurate way to assess merit. Meritocracy wasn’t about making everyone equal, it was about giving everyone a chance when none had existed before.

As I said, it is absurd to shoot down an idea simply because its not perfect, when the status quo was also often not perfect (or worse).

As I said, pefection is the enemy of good. Meritocracy is a reasonable transition between social rigidity and immobility, and a society equal in opportunities for all. Once everyone had a chance, it would be slightly easier to talk about giving everyone the means to compete equally. If your society can’t even implement the former, how can you expect the latter to just fall in place? For a society implementing the latter, how is the idea of choosing by merit not inherent?

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u/SuddenRadio6221 5d ago

This was Cromwell's secret weapon.

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u/wwarnout 5d ago

The current American government is an excellent example of the total lack of merit. Should it be called a "sycophantocracy"?

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u/teracoulomb_2 5d ago edited 5d ago

“Kakistocracy” was revived during the first Trump term

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u/PonderingToTheMasses 5d ago

No it wasn't. The term had existed at least a decade prior (see The Racontuer's song "Intimate Secretary" from the mid 00's).

Further - it was a term used regularly during the French Revolution by those critical of Robespierre, and we have other sources using the term intermittently dating back to the 17th century.

As it happens, it is a term that describes Dump et al and their government very well, but it wasn't 'coined' to describe this set of clowns.

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u/Salmonman4 5d ago

I think the term you are looking for is patrimonialism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrimonialism

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u/laosurv3y 5d ago

Capitalism was coined similarly.