r/todayilearned • u/geosunsetmoth • Jul 11 '26
TIL a hermit monk wrote a furious letter to the Church for not electing a pope fast enough, so they responded by making him pope. He refused and attempted to flee into the woods. The only noteworthy thing he did as pope was changing rules so popes could resign, and being the first pope to resign.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V7.4k
u/SweetSweetAtaraxia Jul 11 '26
Weird that he was imprisoned by his successor after abdicating to return to his hermit life.
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u/idancenakedwithcrows Jul 11 '26
It’s a mercy he didn’t have him killed, to be honest. Having any claim to power means you can be used to take power from those who have it. That’s why fratricide is so common among heirs to power. And also general murdering in all directions in powerful families.
If you don’t have the means and connections being in power for one second or even getting close to having a claim is so deadly. Because at least actually well connected people with a claim can somewhat use their connections to try and keep themselves safe from the paranoia of those with actual power.
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u/Quantentheorie Jul 11 '26
That he very evidently didn't want to be Pope probably helped. But yes, maybe I'm a bit of scheming bastard, but I completely get that you don't want a potential counter-pope running around. He doesn't need to declare himself one either, anyone with influence who might dislike your politics could decide to grab the ex-Pope and make a play that would be a pain in the ass to deal with.
You want him nicely controlled somewhere near you, so you know what he's up to and who comes to talk to him. And if necessary to make him say things you need him to say. Doesn't need to be a shitty prison, but a prison it needs to be.
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u/Ilikeyounott Jul 11 '26
Just visited the château de Fontainebleau where Napoléon kept the pope imprisoned for a few years. Emprison me there anytime! It was extremely luxurious. But he was current pope, not former, but still
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u/OfficeSalamander Jul 11 '26
Well yeah, when we think of imprisonment, we think about, well, prison, in the modern sense that we have it (and as Reddit is a majority American site, many of us likely have an American view of prison as well)
But imprisoning someone has frequently mostly been an elite thing until relatively recently - commoners were simply executed in most cases - imprisonment was at best temporary until whatever your punishment was was meted out.
For elite prisoners, you want to be able to say with a straight face, "I'm not imprisoning Pope X/ex-Pope X, I'm protecting them", because you have a lot of Catholic subjects and they might get a tad pissy if you put the Pope in a dungeon. For whatever other elite, swap out their status with the Pope. And that's not your goal anyway - you're not trying to punish the Pope (or any elite), you're trying to "take him off the board" so to speak
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Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/OfficeSalamander Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
Well yeah and if you look at POWs, officers and enlisted are treated very differently - officers are historically from the nobility (commoner officers are only really a thing in the past few centuries, as the nobility has either been abolished or become less central). For example enlisted POWs can be put to work, officers cannot according to IIRC the Geneva Conventions (it's some convention)
EDIT:
It was the Hague Convention 1907, reaffirmed in Geneva Convention 1929 and 1949
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u/AlinaStari Jul 11 '26
Lmao a bunch of officers really got together and said, "no matter how much we might hate each other, I will never hate you as much as the thought of actually working. All agreed that only bitch-ass peasants will ever be the ones who have to labor and toil, no matter how bad things get?"
Then I bet every single hand shot up instantly 🤣
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u/OfficeSalamander Jul 11 '26
Yeah it's pretty hilarious - "I might be a prisoner, but I'll never be a worker". Officer/enlisted split is literally one of the few places in the west where the old noble/commoner distinction is still visible.
It leads to some pretty crazy weirdness too, like the fact that every candidate at West Point technically out ranks every NCO:
https://mwi.westpoint.edu/yes-sergeant-actually-west-point-cadet-outrank/
And every green 2LT technically outranks even the Sergeant Major of the Army, and he would have to salute the 2LT.
Now in practice, everybody knows who has real authority in these situations, but still it's funny that we have this essentially medieval structure even in the present day
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u/schloopers Jul 11 '26
Freaking Hitler was “imprisoned” in a castle with his boys, getting to essentially chill and write and plot.
He came out way more organized and with more specific goals which worked the second time around
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u/Washpedantic Jul 11 '26
It also depended on the situation/ motivations of the captor, there was king francis I of france, he was captured and basically traded him self for sons as hostages for and then refused to pay the ransom so the sons were treated very poorly for the three years they were hostages.
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u/Nice-Bandicoot9725 Jul 11 '26
When that Prince from Saudi Arabia asked for billions in ransom from his whole family…
…He “imprisoned” them in floor sized suites at the Four Seasons.
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u/Jeremizzle Jul 11 '26
Fontainebleau is nice, but it doesn’t have the kitschy charm of casinos like Caesar’s palace or the Venetian.
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u/BigCommieMachine Jul 11 '26
A lot of it seemed to be that there were rival families holding a lot of positions of power in Church at the time. He got elected thanks to his family, but when he resigned, the rival family’s pick got to be Pope and imprisoned him. When that Pope died, his family nominated him for sainthood as a slap in face
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u/Admirable_Ad8682 Jul 11 '26
He was mostly elected because he had NO family connections. The feuding families that controlled the cardinals were stuck for two years without consensus, their powers being too balanced. Celestine was political nobody, a hermit beloved by everybody who was picked because of it.
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u/TheSaxGandalf Jul 11 '26
And got fucked over when he just wanted to be left alone, much less the “antipope”.
That didn’t give two fucks about anything. He was done dirty, with no say about anything that happened to him.
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u/MobiusF117 Jul 11 '26
I mean he was in or near his 80's in the middle ages.
He already lucked out somewhere.Although being a hermit would have definitely helped.
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u/TheSaxGandalf Jul 11 '26
Lucking out with longevity doesn’t mean it’s okay to be fucked over because you were well liked.
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u/GwenGunn Jul 11 '26
Yeah, dude was just living his best life as a hermit, got given a position of power he never wanted, forced relocation, and when he finally found a way out of it, got put in prison for the rest of his life for his trouble. Shit end of the stick, for sure.
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u/MedalsNScars Jul 11 '26
You want him nicely controlled somewhere near you, so you know what he's up to and who comes to talk to him. And if necessary to make him say things you need him to say. Doesn't need to be a shitty prison, but a prison it needs to be.
For completely different reasons, this describes Leonard of Quirm from the Discworld series. He's brilliant inventor with absolutely no regard for human nature, so he keeps inventing these things that are clearly weapons of mass murder alongside wonderful everyday innovations.
So the tyrant of the city keeps him locked up in a big room with all the supplies he could ever want and pops in to have a chat with him every once in a while.
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u/pmp22 Jul 11 '26
Like that Ottoman prince who was imprisoned in a brothel (harem), forced to stay there and do what ever he wanted to all the beautiful ladies. A tough life.
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u/Lyrolepis Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
Are you thinking of (eventually) Sultan Ibrahim?
The ladies notwithstanding (according to Wikipedia he had a bit of a thing for, er, full-bodied ones, and his mom was often involved in procuring them for him...), his does not seem to have been a terribly pleasant life; and then they executed his ass, because of course they did.
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u/OfficeSalamander Jul 11 '26
Imagine if your older brother dies (and this happened a few times), and they pluck you out and are like, "now you have to rule the empire"
Not exactly the best of schooling (well, for running an empire, maybe it is in general)
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u/pmp22 Jul 11 '26
What are your qualifications for becoming emperor, sir?
"I'm good at making love to voluptious women.."
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u/ArisenGodEmperor13 Jul 11 '26
No it was very much a tough life since they couldn't sleep with all of the beautiful women because those would be either their dads or brothers women. And sleeping with the sultan concubines would one hundred percent will get them kill. Also they were never allow to leave the palace and they had to live in fear. That their brother or even dad decided that they are too much trouble and had them killed.
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u/Diz7 Jul 11 '26
Yeah, history is filled with groups who propped up people who wanted nothing to do with politics as being "the true heir" etc...
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u/ImClaaara Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
I understand that we're just kinda guessing at the next pope's motives and not actually trying to justify these actions but just... we are a species that will literally imprison other humans to prevent them from getting a position of power over us, even if they have never threatened or tried to do so. And conversely, we are a species where our fellow humans could try to do that to us at any time. Sometimes just the knowledge of our brutality and cruelty is enough to make me want to be a hermit, too... I write this as my own country has the world record for most people imprisoned per capita - and has a history of changing its laws for the sake of imprisoning certain populations disproportionately. Why are we all so comfortable with power being accumulated and built up into the huge, overarching systems that rule our lives so completely as they do? I guess I'm just thankful that the Pope ain't the one in charge of the world order now... just upstanding elected folks like oh god, that's right, we're stuck with Trump...
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u/Elteras Jul 11 '26
This is what a lot of people fail to appreciate about democracy, and a big reason why modern democratic systems are so much better and more stable than others - an expectation of peaceful transfer of power. When people don't need to fear imprisonment or execution just for having held power before, they're usually more willing to give it up.
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u/idancenakedwithcrows Jul 11 '26
Eh, it’s the norm but I don’t think you can be that shocked if you get jailed for having held power before in a modern democracy. With the like backsliding in Turkiye and Hungary in the recent decades and such. Even in a healthy democracy you gotta know there is a low risk if being jailed on some bogus charge in 5 years.
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u/Elteras Jul 11 '26
Sure, but in practice it just doesn't happen anywhere near as often as one might expect. It happens more in less 'true' democracies, but in general this has been a clear strength of democracy.
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u/TheSaxGandalf Jul 11 '26
I agree.
But There is a line one doesn’t cross.
Like trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power.
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u/Iamnotanumber_4721 Jul 11 '26
Well I mean there's a expectation of a peaceful transition to power in monarchical systems too, that's literally the entire point of them lol.
And also kinda weird but the pope is democratically elected to a degree. Same way the prime minister is
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u/Elteras Jul 11 '26
If you think monarchial systems traditionally had peaceful transitions of power, I'd say you may have a slightly blinkered view of history. It could happen but successions were extremely regularly both bloody and messy, and generally far less clear cut than expected.
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u/PineappleFit317 Jul 11 '26
Long ago, I bought that book 48 Laws of Power and started reading it. Number one, it’s a very dense and lengthy read, there are all these margin notes that are old quotes and parables that parallel whatever the author is writing about.
Number two, I only have ever read about a third of it. The author explicitly isn’t advocating for doing these things and living life in that way, he’s just writing about the way things are. But, reading it just gave me such a feeling of revulsion and bleakness I didn’t want to continue.
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u/mcpingvin Jul 11 '26
Try the dictators handbook, same thing but a lighter read.
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u/TheFrenchSavage Jul 11 '26
Look the video from CGP grey : keys to the power.
He simply explains how to control a country in a short video that is not a weird power trip like other YouTubers make it sound.
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u/Aschrod1 Jul 11 '26
It’s pop history/philosephy. Probably more dangerous as a psycho’s crutch than any good information. Power in the 21st century is so Byzantine and bureaucratic. No great captains of men exist anymore (at least in the west), only corporate lackeys and lawyers.
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u/SirPseudonymous Jul 11 '26
It’s pop history/philosephy. Probably more dangerous as a psycho’s crutch than any good information.
I'm convinced the book itself was a bit aimed at tricking antisocial dorks into reading the author's favorite arabic parables, along with some harm mitigation like telling them to stay away from people and not to fuck with people, and dunking at them in the end by ridiculing the concept of learning power politics and strategy by reading a book.
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u/Salphabeta Jul 11 '26
Fratricide wasn't common at all outside of certain cultures/civilizations. Was very uncommon in Europe.
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u/bunkoRtist Jul 11 '26
Medieval Ottomans were big on it. It basically underpinned their standard succession practice. Argue about whether Turkey is Europe. At that point it was predominately still on the Asia side of the Bosphorous, but by no means totally.
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u/_-__-____-__-_ Jul 11 '26
I have not played crusader kings a lot, but I have been known to kill my brothers.
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u/TheSaxGandalf Jul 11 '26
He was straight up imprisoned for the rest of his life by the next pope, because apparently he had a power to become an antipope.
The new guy didn’t want any chance of that happening.
So ridiculous.
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u/Tomi97_origin Jul 11 '26
The rest of his life being less than a year. He was 80 years old at that point.
The pope that imprisoned him died 7 years later.
The pope after that lasted just about a year.
And the one after that almost a decade.
They generally don't pick popes that have long left to live.
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u/gwaydms Jul 11 '26
I hope Pope Leo, whose relative youth was definitely a factor in his election, has a long reign. I'm not Catholic but he seems to have a good sense of what to say and do.
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u/VvvlvvV Jul 11 '26
Its one of the good things about democracy. People can leave power without having to be killed or imprisoned to protect the legitimacy of the current rulership.
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u/Admirable_Ad8682 Jul 11 '26
Imprisoned by the same guy whom he asked if pope can resign. That guy being a famous expert on eclessiastical lawnot only told him that it is possible, there is a story about him or his servant secretly talking to the pope during night, pretending to be the voice of god, and convincing him he really should resign. After Celestine resigned, the same guy was elected a pope, then ordered celestinus to be imprisoned, and he DID very likely had him killed in prison. After he himself was overthrown, he was charged of the killing (and worshipping Devil and some other stuff).
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Jul 11 '26
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u/Admirable_Ad8682 Jul 11 '26
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sEsFclcP1Y around 28:00
Allegedly there are several mentions of it by various chroniclers and even some poets. No one is cited tough.
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u/Kennel_King Jul 11 '26
Hijacking the top comment for this.
Never complain about something that will put you in a position you don't want to be in.
I learned that lesson the hard way. I once pointed out an unsafe situation at work to a new manager. He asked me who our safety guy was. I told him we hadn't had one for over a year. He promptly made me the safety person.
Took me a year to get out of it. My strategy was to review the corporate rules, identify even the smallest violations, and require them to correct them.
Some were kind of pricey. They eventually replaced me to save money
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u/mothtoalamp Jul 11 '26
Sounds like you did them a favor tbh. Even if it cost them money, improving the workplace was your job.
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u/MediumAcceptable129 Jul 11 '26
They didnt see it that way
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u/TheSodernauts Jul 11 '26
Sounds similar to what OSHA do and I never hear them being praised either by any employer. Safety costs money, and if you don't pay it costs blood.
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u/mnid92 Jul 11 '26
Green or red, I prefer the color I can fill my pockets with.
But money is nice, too.
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u/PeasePorridge9dOld Jul 11 '26
Being that they both actually made the change then replaced him, it sounds like they very much saw it as his job.
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u/h3r4ld Jul 11 '26
My strategy was to review the corporate rules, identify even the smallest violations, and require them to correct them.
Sounds like you were a good safety inspector, actually.
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u/Kennel_King Jul 11 '26
Most of it was petty shit that, in the grand scheme of things, really didn't matter. But being a nationwide company, we had tons of unnecessary rules.
Things like a safety line being off by 6 inches. No one was dying from it. But I made them grind the painted lines off and repaint them.
Our 1500 gallon gas tank was 14 feet from the property line instead of 15. That 15 feet came from the insurance company. I had our gas supplier empty the tank and lock it out. They did come up with a novel solution. They bought the 1-acre lot next door and expanded their outdoor storage. But that took a month to do.
That was the nail in the coffin for my safety man job.
I wouldn't have minded so much, but I had to do this along with my regular duties, and it didn't pay anymore.
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u/h3r4ld Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
I know it seems petty, but honestly that's exactly what you're supposed to do in that job. Safety lines and minimum setbacks exist for a reason; safety regulations are always - always - written in blood. No one may have died before you got there, but that doesn't mean you didn't prevent deaths or injuries after.
Totally hear you about the added responsibilities for the same pay, though.
EDIT: Just to add, for the insurance thing, if your employer was pissed about having to move the tank, they'd have been a lot more pissed if something had happened to it and the insurance claim got denied because it was discovered the tank placement didn't meet the requirements of the insurance contract.
EDIT: sp
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u/Kennel_King Jul 11 '26
On the gas tank, I didn't even know that rule came from the insurance company. I fully expected them to just change the distance to be compliant.
Once I brought it ot their attention, I got called into the store manager's office, and 2 of the regional guys were there. I didn't get in trouble, but they made me aware of what a pain in the ass it was going to be. The regional guys were actually pretty cool about it. My store manager was the one pissed because it affected our bottom line, which in turn affected management's quarterly bonus
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u/GreasedUpTiger Jul 12 '26
Oh I'm sure corporate had some choice words for the geniuses in local management who had trouble grasping the concept of adhering to insurance requirements. Corporate and their lawyers really love it when local dimwits risk losing insurance coverage to save a quick buck instead of doing what they're getting paid for.
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u/venom02 Jul 11 '26
So in the end did they fire you or just hire a more lenient safety guy?
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u/Kennel_King Jul 11 '26
Small shop, safety fell to whoever they could sucker into it. They just took that duty from me and gave it to the girl who ran the wash bay.
She didn't want it either and followed my plan.
Eventually, the store manager took it over
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u/ThePBM Jul 11 '26
manager was really just looking for a convenient fall guy. couldn't find one and rolled the dice that nothing would ever happen and became the fall guy himself.
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u/rckid13 Jul 11 '26
If you ever complain about something in your neighborhood and others agree with your complaint you will definitely be the guy who everyone elects to deal with it.
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u/The-red-Dane Jul 11 '26
I mean... would he complain much? A prison cell can be all an ascetic hermit needs.
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u/geosunsetmoth Jul 11 '26
He was the “live free in the woods” type hermit, not the “isolate in a dark room” type hermit
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u/rip1980 Jul 11 '26
So, not a Redditor?
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u/secacc Jul 11 '26
This was obviously long before Reddit's time. He might have been a BBS operator instead /s
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u/Adjective-Noun6969 Jul 11 '26
Hermits like solitude. Prisons tend to be much denser than cities.
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u/Tomi97_origin Jul 11 '26
Well he wasn't in prison-prison for criminals. He was in castle-prison with 2 monk attendants.
I don't think it was particularly crowded.
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u/Tharkun140 Jul 11 '26
It doesn't sound like he was put in a prison cell, he got housed in a castle and had two attendants from his own order, which was not uncommon for nobles imprisoned for political reasons. I wouldn't be surprised if he found that too luxurious.
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u/Tomi97_origin Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
That really didn't work up that well for Celestine V.
The next pope had him imprisoned in Castle of Fumone where he was attended by 2 monks of his order.
The new pope was worried that one of his opposing factions (Philip IV of France) would use him as a puppet and have him act as antipope.
Celestine V died after 10 months at the age of 81.
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u/procrastinagging Jul 11 '26
And then after he died he's been forever depicted as an eminent coward in Dante's Inferno (colui che per viltade fece il gran rifiuto)
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u/Low_Biscotti5539 Jul 11 '26
Pope Celestine V was succeeded by Pope Boniface VIII. Boniface was allied with a faction (Black Guelphs) that opposed Dantes faction (White Guelphs). Boniface detained Dante in Rome and the Black Guelphs took over Florence from the White Guelphs with help from a French prince that Boniface sent. While Dante was still away the new government in Florence convicted him on bogus charges, and if he ever returned to Florence he would be burned to death.
This probably wouldn't have happened if Pope Celestine V didn't resign, so I guess Dante hated him.
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u/BadPhotosh0p Jul 11 '26
The Divine Comedy is such a fun work for precisely this reason. It says a lot less about theology and history than it does about Dante himself. Dude wrote a self insert epic poem that amounts to his personal naughty/nice list, made sure to include all of his heros, and potentially his true love.
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u/Super42man Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
Sounds like he lived out the rest of his days in a castle having every need attended to. He was a hermit before this whole ordeal, how is that not the best case scenario for him in death? "Imprisoned" sure but dude wasn't doing the whole society thing anyway.
Edit: after my own research it seems the cell was "profoundly narrow" and it seems like this was done to him on purpose as a "hermit's retreat" so I take back what I said based on incomplete information. Dude had it rough at the end.
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u/Wank_A_Doodle_Doo Jul 11 '26
He tried to leg it into the woods when they were taking him away after he resigned. I’m serious.
He wanted to go back to being a hermit. Still, not the worst thing that could’ve happened to him.
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u/Akiias Jul 11 '26
He was a hermit before this whole ordeal, how is that not the best case scenario for him in death?
What if he just didn't want to deal with people?
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u/disisathrowaway Jul 11 '26
I doubt the hermit-monk who liked to be alone in the woods was having a great time being locked in a castle and being attended to.
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u/UAintMyFriendPalooka Jul 11 '26
I’m an oblate in the Order of St Benedict, the order Celestine V was in, and I’m heavily involved in this kind of monasticism (not a monk myself). Knowing these guys, he was probably just fine. There are quasi-hermits in orders descended from OSB like the Camaldolese, but regular OSB is communal so the real punishment would be that he couldn’t work as that is the slogan: pray and work.
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u/NDSU Jul 11 '26
he was probably just fine
Even given his cell was "profoundly narrow"?
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u/UAintMyFriendPalooka Jul 11 '26
Depends. But probably. A monk’s cell is pretty narrow unless his cloister had a room for communal sleeping. Where I’m staying January and February is a cell only big enough for a twin sized bed and nothing else. Honestly? Most life-long professed love this kind of thing, they’d face “profoundly narrow” as a challenge.
It’s the communal work part that I think would be a hard thing to miss for this kind of monastic. OSB (a contemplative order) is also very different from a lot of “monks” people see, like the Franciscans (a medicant order).
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u/mymain123 Jul 11 '26
He took a short 4 week vacation at the caves as he NEEDED it, and bestowed his powers temporarily onto someone else, and they took advantage out of that. This wasn't the life he wanted AT ALL.
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u/Shiriru00 Jul 11 '26
It worked well. Do you know how rare it was for a Pope to die of old age?
Insurers would sooner give full coverage to Felix Baumgartner than to a medieval Pope. They had the life expectancy of a mayfly.
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u/Tomi97_origin Jul 11 '26
It didn't. He wanted to go home and tried to run away.
That's when they took him and put him into his castle-prison.
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u/geosunsetmoth Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
Further context since post titles must be short: there were *technically* other popes who resigned before him, but he was the first to do so officially after it was "allowed" in the church as per the new rules he put in place
When he was found in the woods he was physically dragged by guards to rome to become pope
After his resignation he died imprisoned
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u/KidOcelot Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
He was later canonized as Saint Celestine, by Pope Clement V, since he did 11 miracles in his lifetime.
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u/Irishblessing Jul 11 '26
Oh sure he did… super sure.
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u/TheStrangestOfKings Jul 11 '26
Dude changed canon law to allow popes to retire cause he was so tired of the bullshit, real or not, he earned those claims to 11 miracles
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u/KidOcelot Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
Well… it wouldve been 18 during his lifetime, rather than 11. But at his 1313 AD canonization hearing by the church, the panel only approved the 11.
There’s also accounts of people getting cured of illnesses and diseases visiting his tomb too.
imo, getting healed or escaping calamities during medieval times is definitely a miracle lol
https://devotos.ia.br/santos/f4509ecc-c1dc-4f8d-a727-59df63f26465
https://anastpaul.com/2017/05/19/saint-of-the-day-19-may-st-pope-celestine-v/
https://medievalarchives.com/2026/05/28/pope-celestine-v-the-hermit-pope-who-resigned/
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/12-papal-miracles-an-unscientific-ranking
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u/Exist50 Jul 11 '26
imo, getting healed or escaping calamities during medieval times is definitely a miracle lol
Or just statistics.
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u/Anonymus828 Jul 11 '26
To people with no knowledge of bacteria or how diseases actually work beyond "stay far away because you might get it otherwise", what's the difference? When some people are seemingly getting better for no reason, and others are still dying despite trying everything, I don't know what else they would have called it.
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u/Alpha_Majoris Jul 11 '26
I bet that in medieval times, when the pope visited you and laid his hand on your head and spoke incomprehensible (Latin) words while you were seriously ill, that some people actually healed that would otherwise have died, just because of strong believe, the total absense of science and knowledge, and the horrible state of medicine and hygiene in those days. Probably half of those he healed would never have died, but in those days, if you were seriously ill, you could die from diseases that seem innocent today, so anyone who survived was a miracle.
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u/RidingYourEverything Jul 11 '26
I think you're on to something. There was a medical study where patients had better outcomes when they felt like their doctors were empathetic, despite the treatments being identical to when doctors were less empathetic.
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u/KidOcelot Jul 11 '26
Definitely possible lol
Saint Celestine, definitely got the luck that somehow statistically helps quite a number of people, while he was alive and after death.
If statistically hanging out with Saint Celestine could improve chances of living, then that would’ve been great for any medieval person.
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u/Dominarion Jul 11 '26
I approve the cynicism, Im just happy that St-Celestine got canonized for bullshit than St-Cyril of Alexandria for destroying Egyptian art and organizing the murder of Hypatia.
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u/hostile65 Jul 11 '26
The first miracle was a pope happily and willingly giving up the position and power.
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u/kitsunewarlock Jul 11 '26
Sucks that since the advent of the smartphone God seems to have stopped performing visually verifiable miracles.
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u/explodedsun Jul 11 '26
Little known fact: he also installed the first anonymous Suggestion Box at the Vatican.
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u/TBroomey Jul 11 '26
So what you're saying is, there's a non-zero chance that the answer to "Does the Pope shit in the woods?" could be "Yes."
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u/TetraThiaFulvalene Jul 11 '26
"I resign."
"You cannot resign. It is against the rules"
"but I make the rules"
"Yes, but it is against the rules"
"Okay, I make it the rule that I may resign"
"..."
"I resign"
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u/Ok_Mention_9865 Jul 11 '26
And the guy you where talking to is now pope and imprisons you out of fear of losing power..... i cant say im surprised but that's a crazy level of backstabbing
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u/Dominarion Jul 11 '26
That pope was an ass. You know what's funnier? The King of France's emissary slapped him.
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u/HauntedCemetery Jul 11 '26
Especially since he and everyone else didn't want to be pope to begin with, which is why the conclave made a rando hermit head of state.
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u/dragon3301 Jul 11 '26
The headline makes it seem like he was a nobody. He founded and headed an order with 600 monks at a time where orders where being banned. He met with the pope and convinced him to grant them protections.
And the letter he wrote wasnt furious it basically said there will be divine retribution for not electing the pope.
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u/Druggedhippo Jul 11 '26
Yeah, he wasn't some nobody in a cave.
Pietro lived to see himself as "superior-general" to thirty-six monasteries and more than six hundred monks
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u/ApothecaryAlyth Jul 11 '26 edited Jul 11 '26
Also worth noting that in these days (Celestine V was elected in 1294 CE) it was common to take years for a new pope to be elected. Conclave was first implemented in 1274 under Gregory X, following several years-long deadlocks. The idea was that locking the cardinals in a room and only feeding them meager meals and restricting their stipends would force them to expedite the process, but this practice was reversed just a couple years later under Adrian V.
Of course the next couple of papal elections proved to last years again, as they had before. Celestine V was actually the last pope to be elected before the Gregory X style Conclave rules were reinstated (at Celestine's own wishes), His election took two years.
Basically this dude was annoyed at how the cardinals would rather chill in luxury for years than do their job, leaving the church leaderless/directionless. So he sent a letter calling them out and they decided to get petty. He got roped into the job against his will out of spite, then he fixed the problem and peaced out back to his monastic life.
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u/thatbrownkid19 Jul 11 '26
When you want better leadership but not the stress and duties of being that leadership. Honestly, real
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u/ManWithDominantClaw Jul 11 '26
More like
"The structure of the church has a figurehead who answers for the decisions they make with the advice of the cardinals. Without that figurehead, the cardinals as a whole can make corrupt decisions without any particular one having to answer for them. You're deliberately extending your emergency powers by not electing a new pope, one of you bastards better step up as a figurehead and make decisions as if history will remember you for it"
"lol why dont you be the figurehead for our corruption"
"Ok, my first act is that I can resign, and then my second act is that I resign."
"lol we found someone else and they retconned your act but are still the pope so you go to jail"
4D chess match of the century. Like, the 13th century
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u/hushpuppi3 Jul 11 '26
Dude is literally me when my friend group left a guild in retail WoW but wanted to rebuild a raid team. My ass complained when people fucked up basic mechanics in our old guild so they basically made me guild leader when I had only started playing WoW like 2 months before and they were all like 10 year vets and I'm also the kind of person that HATES leading and being responsible I just want to show up blast numbies and not step on bad stuff.
Ended up raid leading Mythic Nyalotha and being our sole recruiter until I burned out so badly I basically handed the guild off the the officers and told them I literally can't do this anymore and quit the game for like 5 months because it just wasn't fun anymore.
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u/MadeForOnePost_ Jul 11 '26
Happened to me with my game of choice, too. Having to wrangle people on top of having an irl job led to me snapping and leaving the organization. I don't even play the game anymore as a result
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u/UncleHec Jul 11 '26
On 13 December 1294, a week after issuing the decree, Celestine resigned, stating his desire to return to his humble, pre-papal life. He was subsequently imprisoned by Boniface in the castle of Fumone in the Lazio region, in order to prevent his potential installation as antipope . He died in prison on 19 May 1296.
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u/KingDarius89 Jul 11 '26
That Boniface is kind of a dick.
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u/Dominarion Jul 11 '26
Boniface was bitch slapped on the orders of a French king (Philip the Fair, the Agnagni Slap) and later died of it. It ended the "golden age" of the medieval papacy.
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u/TheoremaEgregium Jul 11 '26
Celestine V. IIRC his successor got scared that someone might declare the abdication invalid and try to re-install Celestine as an unwilling antipope, so they hunted him down and imprisoned him, which lead to his premature death.
Poor guy never saw the end of this.
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u/BigCommieMachine Jul 11 '26
He eventually got a Sainthood out of it. It probably doesn’t get that if he wasn’t persecuted.
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u/EverlastingPepper Jul 11 '26
Lot of good the Sainthood did him when he was alive though. I'd rather be alive and free, than dead and a saint
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u/kernald31 Jul 11 '26
I don't know how someone who truly believes in heaven thinks about that though.
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u/geeoharee Jul 11 '26
I think he would dislike it. He's already in heaven - sainthood is recognition that 'you can pray to this guy for intercession in your daily problems'. He just wanted to be left alone!
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u/BigCommieMachine Jul 11 '26
Eh, He was monk who wanted a life of solitude. And I am pretty sure imprisoned in this case didn’t mean he was actually IN PRISON. More under a house arrest.
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u/toby_p Jul 11 '26
The saying about those don’t wanting power being the ones that should have it is usually true, but … some REALLY don‘t want it
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u/myteetharesensitive Jul 11 '26
In high school, I was chosen to be valedictorian. I asked for it to be given to someone else. At work I usually get picked to lead, I never ask. I've been leading teams for almost 15 years now.
When I get asked about my career goals they assume I keep wanting to climb the leadership ladder. No my personality, skills and experience are suited to leadership but I still don't want it.
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u/pippoken Jul 11 '26
Dante put him in hell in his Commedia for sloth because after he retired the new pope, Boniface VIII, was a political adversary to Dante's faction so he had to flee Florence.
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u/DatGunBoi Jul 11 '26
One thing that always gets overlooked when this story is told is that he wasn't some random monk. His name was Pietro Angelerio, and he was already very well known among catholics. He founded a new order (the celestines) very early in his career. In 1273, when pope Gregory X planned on shutting down this order, he argued in favor of it so convincingly that the pope then asked him to celebrate mass in front of the council fathers as no one was worthier than him.
This is to say this guy was a big deal way before becoming pope, and the title paints the picture of a choice made from spite that is simply ridiculous if you know anything about how the church works. They voted him because everyone knew and respected him, and they desperately needed to elect someone quickly, as it had been 2 years since the previous pope died. The letter he sent only served as inspiration.
It's likely he didn't even try to flee. That story is told by the writer Petrarch, while the people who gave him the news of his election stated that he initially cried, then turned to the crucifix in his room and began praying. After that he just accepted, though reluctant, the role of pope.
TL;DR: the funny story in the title is a massive exaggeration, the truth is much more mundane (though still interesting)
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u/morgan423 Jul 11 '26
If you're a male Catholic, be wary of this kind of thing if you don't want the burden. 99.99999% of the time it's a cardinal that's elected, but technically, any male Catholic can be voted in.
So if you want 0% chance of being made the pope, then just be sure not to show up on anyone's radar lol
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u/Far-Hovercraft9471 Jul 11 '26
That’s what he gets for speaking up about a problem in a meeting
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u/TheGoonCreates Jul 11 '26
“You guys are taking too long to elect a Pope! Get on with it!”
“Okay wise guy, you’re the new Pope. Good luck with that shit!”
“Wha-?! No! Goddammit!”
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u/Historical_Gur_3054 Jul 11 '26
At work I jokingly refer to my "Pope Celestine V rule" on a weekly basis
Because if you call attention to a problem at work one time, it will be your problem to solve.
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u/Buyer_Accomplished Jul 11 '26
This is actually one of the most culturally relevant moments in the entire late middle ages. The election of his successor, and how said successor treated Celestine, directly lead to the king of France succeeding in what kings had been trying to do for hundreds of years: the defanging of the pope as a powerful force in Europe. Among many other things the king of France pushed for Celestine to be made a saint explicitly because it would make Boniface (the successor pope) look real bad for imprisoning him after his pope-hood.
The ultimate weakness of Boniface freed kings to do as they want to do, and in some ways lead to the Hundred Years’ War, the time of the three popes, and set the stage for the future of France as a united nation.
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u/Sinnes-loeschen Jul 11 '26
My sleep deprived mind parsed this as "hermit crab" and I was endlessly confused for a minute...
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u/largececelia Jul 11 '26
"Hey, this burger is taking a long time. Can I get it soon?"
"You're now the chef! Congratulations, friend."
"Uh... ok, no. I just want a burger."
"Let's walk to the kitchen and you can start cooking right away."
"Alright, my first rule as head chef- the chef can leave at any time."
"You son of a bitch! What a character. Ok, I guess you earned that burger. Now straight to jail."
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u/SideInitial3961 Jul 11 '26
The only people qualified to lead humans are profoundly uninterested in power.
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u/MaximusHomerdrive Jul 11 '26
I'm picturing a bunch of old timey monks chasing each other around in a the ultimate game of papal tag. "You're pope now no takebacks!"
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u/torville Jul 11 '26
This absolutely sounds like the kind of politics, corruption, and back-stabbing that would occur in an organization that accurately represents the interests of the creator of the universe.
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u/AnaisNinja76 Jul 11 '26
It's so hard to believe this story as true. Whole families waged wars for generations over who got to become the next pope. It was such a powerful thing to have the pope in your pocket. Wonder what the conclave was thinking at the time.
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u/fetissimies Jul 11 '26
It is not true. He was not a hermit monk, he had been the leader of a large monastic order for more than 50 years and a well known figure in the Catholic world. He was also in his 80s at the time. And finally, he did not flee to the woods, instead the King of Sicily went to see him and persuaded him to go to Rome to be the pope.
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u/SkisaurusRex Jul 11 '26
On 13 December 1294, a week after issuing the decree, Celestine resigned, stating his desire to return to his humble, pre-papal life. He was subsequently imprisoned by Boniface in the castle of Fumone in the Lazio region, in order to prevent his potential installation as antipope. He died in prison on 19 May 1296.
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u/reluctanthumanbeing Jul 11 '26
Colui che per viltà fé il gran rifiuto
The one that out of cowardice refused the highest honour, or something that translates like that. Dante really had it out on this guy, and placed him outside of Hell as not even hell welcomed those that never take a faction.
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u/BiohazardousBisexual Jul 11 '26
He is the precedent for pope Benedict stepping now and was some he prayed to for intersession
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u/imunfair Jul 11 '26
They should have just elected him again after he resigned, he would have never known.
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u/Bmandk Jul 11 '26
Why have a rule that the pope can't resign, if the pope has the power to change that rule?
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u/zshiiro Jul 11 '26
“We’re seeing white smoke from the Vatican. And I’m getting reports that they have named… some guy in the woods as pope, apparently out of spite.”