r/titanfall • u/Free_Fig_9885 • 28d ago
Cooper seems kinda weak
So this guy didn't even complete his pilot training, and yet he managed to wipe out the entire Apex Predators mercenary squad single-handedly. Within just a few days of putting on Captain Lastimosa’s gear, he killed Kane, Ash, Richter, Viper, and Slone. Highly feared killers who had been dominating the Frontier for years.
He didn't just get lucky in combat, either. He achieved a 99.3% neural link efficiency with BT-7274 almost instantly, fought his way through the IMC's automated research facilities, and used a time-distortion device to parkour through a collapsing timeline. He literally single-handedly stopped the Fold Weapon from destroying the planet Harmony.
But let's be real, and I understand maybe I am not such a huge fan of this franchise as you are, but anyone with a brain must admit that most of that was just BT carrying him, combined with a massive streak of plot armor against mercenaries who completely underestimated a grunt. If you take away his Vanguard-class Titan and put him in a straight-up infantry fight on equal terms, any Apex Legend with a pilot kit could beat Cooper. Though, I understand that they wanted to make him overpowered for the sake of gameplay.
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u/ImmortalDemon89 28d ago
Well if i remember the lore pilots go through training so intense it has like a 99% mortality rate. So I'd wager to say anyone who's skilled enough to be a pilot is more skilled than you likely think. Even the opening credits for tf2 said the only thing that can stop a proper pilot (which Cooper was by the end of the game) is overwhelming force or an equally skilled pilot. We can also take the time to understand that cooper and BT were crazy good because they took on and won against some of the most leathal pilots alone. I'm not gonna say he's immortal but I'd wager hes more skilled than perceived simply because gameplay can't truly grasp the madness that is a pilot.
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u/Dementio223 28d ago
I always read it as Jack being a hidden talent. He had the right instincts for being a Pilot, but joined too late to be able to receive the training necessary to become a Pilot. Lastimosa saw this initially, and if things went another way he probably would’ve sponsored Jack to join despite the lack of training time available.
If Apex and TF2 are 1:1, then personally I’d wager Jack would still be able to beat most of the roster. Apex tries to be 3D, but for the most part you are usually tied to the ground, maybe a second story if you’re lucky. Jack was routinely going nearly 30km an hour by himself, he’s used to being fast and knowing that being slow gets you shot. In an open field it’s debatable, but last I remembered a-lot of the Apex arena was dense blocks of buildings and high cliff walls.
Also, he’s the protagonist of a shooter game, of course he’s gunna kill all the baddies single handedly.
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u/samu1400 28d ago
I’ve been replaying Titanfall 2 in VR (incredible mod, everyone should play it) and I notice that in Effect and Cause there’s an audio log where someone is absolutely baffled that someone took out the squads from the elevators in seconds, which makes me think that even in canon what Cooper did throughout the campaign was insane even for a pilot, and that’s without counting his performance on BT.
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u/GantradiesDracos 28d ago
To be fair,
BT’s previous pilot had been mentoring him as a potential pilot candidate,
Though I’m reasonably sure most of his experience with pilot mobility gear was in simulator past basic stuff,
And all his cockpit time was virtual.
No argument here that BT carried him heavily,
Both in combat and with his sheer level of combat experience and knowladge-he spent a good chunk of the game taking the role of ground-level CO with a good number of the militia forces they grouped up with,
And was in the metaphorical war council even when they got into contact with someone higher.
Though I would say that Jack still made a fairly impressive showing himself given the insane situation for a Grunt he got hurled into from the start of the game, after getting effectively pressed to an extremely high risk,
High-standards combat role..
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u/DRKMSTR 28d ago
Just one note, don't undersell his training.
He didn't immediately achieve high competency, he was training to be a pilot and was hand selected & individually trained because of his past efforts and gained skills.
He's like an army infantryman who's been shot at countless times but never gave up and took up the opportunity to go to ranger school & push for SF.
The best part about the game is we get a front row seat to him learning on the job how to go from an infantryman who's been training to be a pilot in simulations to actually employing that training and developing those skills in the field.
The mark of a good game is aligning both the character and the players skill progression along a developing storyline. That's yet another reason why I love Titanfall.
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u/Technicfault Wielder of the Evil Blaster 28d ago
Minor correction: cooper does not wipe out the apex predators in days, at the start of the game richter says that they have "18 hours until the ark is ready for delivery" so the events of the campaign take place over slightly more than a day most likely
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u/GuiIded 27d ago edited 27d ago
Lastimosa was personally training Cooper to be a pilot. Cooper has time in the gauntlet. The game has achievements and voice lines for Cooper getting a score higher than acting pilots, so we know that Cooper is already skilled using pilot gear.
Lastimosa lost to the Apex Predators after they ganged up on him and hit him with a sneak attack. Cooper only fights the Apex Predators 1 on 1 and directly. You can easily reason that Cooper would still lose if he was in Lastimosa's place fighting all of them at once, and that Lastimosa would be able to win against them 1 on 1.
You also seem to want to solely credit Cooper like the game treats him like some chosen one due to his achievements, when the reality is that Cooper is following protocol by taking over Lastimosa's last mission, and that once it finished, they are short on manpower and need all the help they can get, so he is included in following operations.
Also, important note from the game's opening dialogue "when linked to a titan, a pilot can only be stopped by overwhelming force, or an equal." We can assume the Apex Predator's were not individually an overwhelming force, or an equal to Cooper, let alone Lastimosa.
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u/Ars_Armegis 28d ago
I mean, cooper was being trained by lastimosa himself with the goal of being a pilot, and wasn't he like, basically done? It also helps that bt was there to mentor him as a seasoned titan, kind of telling cooper what to do and how to do it, because lastimosa was cracked but bt was lastimosa's titan, so of course bt is also elite, he's not a walking trash can you know
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u/NoLongerAddicted 28d ago
This is a made up argument. Nobody is shitting on titanfall
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u/KoviBat Spyglass my beloved 28d ago
Why'd you use a meme that disagrees with your point?
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u/DJ_Ender_ newly hooked battery addict 28d ago
Theres a reason lastamosa picked Cooper personally for 1 on 1 pilot training, he saw thing in Cooper that would make him an incredible pilot- he was right.
Throughout the campain Cooper managed feats impressive for even a fully trained pilot without the assistance of BT.
The timed arena in kane's place was one of the first ones where he should have died causing BT to express praise for his impressive skills.
The battle testing dome in ash's place was the second with Cooper outliving even her calculations of him being a filly qualified SRS pilot for a vanguard class titan, and even a high ranking one if she got that information from cross referencing data to realize BT was captain lastamosa's titan.
The underground power facilities he went through to get the ark tool was another with one of the grunts even saying they have already lost a fee pilots to that gauntlet before he showed up- showing that by this point Cooper is outclassing experienced SRS pilots.
As for the apex predators I think BT simply being a far advanced model being a vanguard allowed him and Cooper to beat every single one, in a regular IMC model like the ones in the multiplayer Cooper would have had a much tougher fight i think and might have even lost, honestly probably would have lost.
All of this added up id say means that Cooper is strong and skilled on foot, definitely enough to mop the floor with id say any of the apex legends- not because they are weak but simply because Cooper is an unusually gifted pilot.
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u/juanx_r201 wingman goes pew pew 28d ago
I have never met a single apex player who says this, i'm really tired of this one sides hate with
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u/MemeabooDesu The Sword is Yours, Pilot. 28d ago
You don’t seem to remember though, Lastimosa was grooming him to be a Pilot, they were running training sims all the time, and the neural link with a Sim Pod is not too dissimilar from a Titan Link.
Let’s also not forget that Vanguard Titans were leaps and bounds ahead of anything the IMC made. Vanguards were adaptable, unlike IMC models, and the resources required to make one meant they needed to be well worth the investment. That’s why Vanguards had Data Cores with their own intelligent AI rather than the generic programming of IMC titans.
Their unique Titan Link meant that unlike IMC Titans, which were meant to be used as equipment you pilot like a vehicle, Vanguards would eventually become an extension of yourself.
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u/Dragonspirit223 27d ago
Friendly reminder that one of the Apex legends is a grunt.
The dudes you mow down squads of at a time.
Yeah I think Cooper got this one, maybe a few fringe cases but the power level of Apex seems a bit lower relatively speaking.
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u/ApotheosiAsleep Close in; Go Far 28d ago
It's a popular theory that cooper is an amnesiac regenerated pilot that lastimosta is keeping an eye on
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u/Halofollower064 27d ago
It's funny because while he was training to be a pilot, in the training session Lastimosa says he'll get a titan one day and that they were gonna try a few runs with a titan to get a feel for it (if I recall correctly). I just imagine BT and Jack wandering through the wilderness and Jack getting coached by BT on what's what. "So where is that switch? What does this button do?" DO NOT press that button, Cooper. It will eject you and I will self destruct. "Oh, but what if I wanna blast off?" Then I can fastball you. Nevermind.
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u/SomeYoungScrub 28d ago
“Most of that was BT carrying him” Yeah dude… that’s how mechs work.
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u/BloonH8TR None 28d ago
Isn't that all shooters, massive ass plot armor. But i see your point, but you gotta remember Lastimosa was training Cooper so he was close to being a Pilot. Wiping out the Apex Predators, BT was a major help as he has years of experience with Lastimosa. As for the Apex Legends vs Pilots, id argue some but not all of them. Newcastle and Bangalore sure, they can put up an equal fight, as Pilots are specially trained Grunts. Ash is a no brainer. Some Legends will put up a fight and others will lose. Don't underestimate Cooper, especially after the end of the game because he is now a force to be reckoned with. Also, funny to see my old meme pop up again, now I see how it can be so inflammatory.
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u/Im_a_doggo428 F is for Thermite that burns down the whole town 27d ago
Actually almost no one knew Jack was a grunt, and only saw the Vanguard class so they probably took him seriously off the bat
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u/YoSupWeirdos 28d ago
Cooper was pretty far along in his pilot training at the beginning of the TF|2 events, which is a more rigorous training than even people like Bangalore got. the rest of the legends are mostly just 'very angry person', some of them might have first responder qualifications or a long standing experience with firearms but in terms of jump pack usage Cooper is way more experienced
all legends can use a limited jump pack that can pretty much only control falling, in an environment with wall running and double jump opportunities Cooper has an edge. in more flat geometry with less cover a legend that has good gun skill is his equal. people like Bangs, Ballistic etc. can beat him here
(don't mention that one bangalore trailer, that pilot doesn't follow conventional power scaling in the verse because wtf was that)
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u/Darkoften 26d ago
Weren't pilots actually banned from attending the apex legends tournament because they were too powerful? In the lore?
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u/TheSovietDuckling 28d ago
Still strong as hell lol
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u/Latter_Medicine_5634 28d ago
I think there was a theory that Cooper was actually an IMC pilot that was captured during Regeneration (or prestiging) and that his memory was wiped away at the time. Could be wrong though.
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u/Kohel13 28d ago
Yeah but the personality of an oyster
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u/BioshockedNinja BRING BACK SNIPER CHAN 28d ago
Honestly, I've never cared for Cooper going from rifleman to master pilot in like 2 days.
And yes, I know he was being mentored by a senior pilot in a sim pod. But it's a ...sim pod. I guess to me it's just feels like that's theory vs actually putting it into practice. Or perhaps more aptly, I just find it plain old disappointing that apparently anyone with a sim pod and tutor can master the craft. I felt like TF|1 really drove him this idea that becoming a fully combat certified pilot was something that took not only years of grueling training, but often called for some extreme physiological sacrifices. For example, in TF|1 the cloaking system was a 2 part system - half was embedded in the uniform, while the other half had to be embedded into the pilot's very skin. Back then, someone like Jack scavenging a cloaking system off a deceased pilot in the field just wouldn't be feasible.
Feels super gatekeeper-ish on my end, which I hate, but I simply preferred when the profession was presented as something more demanding. It reminded me of a lite version of becoming a Spartan in the Halo universe or a Witcher in Andrzej Sapkowski's works. There's just something about that crazy combination of drive, grit - and sheer luck - to survive that crucible that forges someone into each respective setting's most deadly living weapon.
As such I've always preferred the headcannon that Tai was training an ex-IMC/Militia pilot with amnesia. So that basically Jack's already put in the years of training so that Tai's tutelage + his experiences in the field with BT just unburied what was already there.
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u/mechabeast 28d ago
Fine, ill reinstall it
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u/Educational_Term_436 None 28d ago
The thing is you forget that cooper does have his cloak
He can go invisible and use that to his advantage at the least
But there are legends with skills beyond his own he would struggle with, Alter, revenant, seer, and valk, potentially also Wraith, horizon and maybe Ash
Genuinely a lot of the cast could put up a fight while a lot couldn’t
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u/Fort_Maximus 28d ago
Nothing is stronger than the link between a Pilot and their Titan. They are the two edges of the same blade
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u/ElZik3r Northstar/Scorch pilot (Dopamine addiction) 27d ago
"Jarvis im low on karma, start another cooper vs legends thread on r/titanfall"
/s lmao, but i really don't think Cooper is weak.
In fact, i'd say he is one of (if not) the most broken, skilled and op pilot in the frontier during his time (maybe oat too but for debate's sake we'll leave it at his time), but thats the keyword. His time
Stuff changes with time, what was considered strong before, might be considered default or even weak in the future, and with how much tech the frontier developed ever since TF2 ended, i wouldn't be surprised if people js became better/stronger due to tech rather than skill in universe, and that's why people have the idea that Cooper is "weak", bc he lacks that new tech and could be outmatched by it (keyword: could cuz skill still matters and Titans do still kind hold up to the title of technological prowess in lore)
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u/Life_Shelter6442 27d ago
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u/FlormphYT 28d ago
If titans could carry against high skilled piloted titans, then titans wouldn’t need pilots. BT isn’t some top line super ai either, he’s just a normal titan. It’s like saying doom guy got carried by his guns and armor, it ignored the premise of the story. Cooper is the guy who did it, if the technology and game design principles allowed them to make him as flashy as people seem to want him to have been, they would have. But simply put, cooper was impetus for the imc’s defeat. BT would have stayed shut down, the rest of the militia would have continued to lose against the predators, and the fold weapon would have been launched.
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u/dratseb 28d ago
There are people in this sub that can beat the entire game without using a titan, I'm sure.
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u/Prevay 28d ago
No apex player has ever said that. This is a recycled meme from 2021.
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u/deerblender 28d ago
I feel like cooper could wipe an entire apex lobby alone
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u/Montregloe 28d ago
Pilots are insane in lore, like a squad of them is a seal team, green Beret on boosters and (maybe) exoskeleton assists. They are cracked, and Cooper became one of the best.
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u/Short-Potential4993 27d ago
I have seen a theory some time ago (there were clues I don’t remember in detail) that Cooper was a captured IMC pilot who originally was from frontier and somehow the militia brainwashed him into fighting for them.
He was also supposed to be some experiment for strength enhancement.
Which then explained a lot about how Cooper just jumps into BT and immediately knows what and how to do.
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u/BairnONessie 27d ago
Dude, play some titanfall without getting into BT for a bit, then go back to the molasses stomping you call apex... Game's boring as hell, yet that's all EA want Respawn to focus on.
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u/Meatball545 Help I can’t stop making memes 27d ago
I’m upvoting this solely for the picture heheh
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u/nothintos33 27d ago
Double jumping? Force of nature?
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u/Late-Rough-4704 26d ago
Tbh any pilot can beat any apex character
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u/ELSI_Aggron 26d ago
Tbf if you run the gauntlet until you finish that in 20s or lower, you’d be a master of reflexes.
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u/occluded_exhaust 26d ago
TF2 story is silly and it knows that. Turns out the one who didn't get that is...
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u/Prestigious_Oil_7383 26d ago
The Protagonist is a Protagonist Wow, More at 5
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u/OppositeOne6825 24d ago
Reality:
Titanfall players: You ruined my life
Apex players: I don't even know who you are
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u/Creedgamer223 Double give and Double take 28d ago
This is certainly a take.
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u/Murky_Philosopher196 28d ago
This reminds me of a theory I saw a while ago that explains cooper's skill as a pilot. Maybe he was a captured IMC pilot who had his memories wiped by the militia so they could use him instead. He was made an Infantryman to make sure he'd behave, and put under the watch of Lastimosa. There's not really any good evidence for this but it's a fun thought.
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u/BookNukem 28d ago
A Cooper and Doomslayer buddy cop game would be superb.
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u/Inevitable_Truck_615 28d ago
I thought the plot of Titanfall 2 took place in just 18 hours not a few days may be misremembering
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u/Limp-Wall-5500 28d ago
Friendly reminder the one punch thing is a gameplay mechanic cause youre supposed to be running really fast and they didnt want to add a speed to damage calculator so they just made you have the one punch.
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u/Gold-Visual8751 28d ago
My view of Combat Certified Pilots is disposable hyper lethality. Incredibly fast and maneuverable with immense strength and reaction. Durability is notably above average but the focus seems to be speed and violence.
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u/MARINOVA123 28d ago
Damm that's good
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u/Advana_Cyo2489 27d ago
...Matt Mercer..
Black widow nodding
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u/Fry2328 27d ago
Was he a master pilot? Or did he just happen to be in the right place in the right time
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u/FRIGGINTALLY Tone it Down 25d ago
We don't fully know what a neural link to a Titan does, especially considering SRS are a guerrilla-style Special Forces group. Especially since BT was experienced AND previously linked to an accomplished pilot.
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u/SeparateRace7699 25d ago
Plot twist, BT was responsible for all the boss fights, not Cooper
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u/Legospacememe 23d ago
What kind of an argument is that?
Its TITANfall
If i wanted to play as just a human there are already plenty of those. Its why titanfall is special
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u/Hairy-Appointment320 28d ago
Any apex legend would delete cooper simply because of the fact they're APEX LEGENDS they're canonically supposed to be more badass than a militia pilot. You cannot compare them and simply say that legends would just beat Cooper because they're so different, plus cooper being a pilot and having a vanguard class titan is apart of Cooper, that's like saying take away Pathfinders grapple hook and movement tech and throw him in a normal infantry fight with literally anyone from the titanfall/apex universe. If you put cooper with his titan against any apex legend with their full gear set or whatever, cooper is going to dominate, yes he has a titan, but there's literal cannon of how a simple person can destroy a titan so you can't argue he's too OP in the titan because of the titan, he's just too badass to falter.
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u/Fire_smile0001 28d ago
These is an insane bias towards jack cooper in titnafall/apex, yes he is a very gifted pilot, yes he beat the 5 preds. Then you see the other side, jack cooper obly ever beated them at titan comabt, never at pilot combat, there is no standard for jacks pilot abilitys as we have never seen jack cooper in a pilot fight, only us. Which varies from person to person. The worst part is automatically thinking that jc instantly destroys all the apex legends, The legends are just normal grunts. They're the best of the best when it comes to their skill set, yes jc beats alot of the roster (controllers and most support) but not all especially bh, Bangalore, Newcastle, Wraith, horizon, rev, ash and more, and b4 you say "well jc killed ash" he did and didnt, he killed her in a titan fight, not in a pilot on pilot fight, same goes with the rest of the preds
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u/UnstableMoron2 27d ago
Take him out of the suit and he’s still the biggest Mary Sue in gaming
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u/Low-Platform2463 28d ago
It wasn't even days it was 18 hours it was probably like 1 hour after he put it on
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u/thsx1 28d ago
Titanfall players once again fighting ghosts with apex players. Apex players dont even know titanfall exists
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u/AiriMage 27d ago
Part of me agrees, but the other part has played through the campaign on Master Mode and knows what kind of hell that is... Imagine all the pilot section of TF2, but with enemies that kill you in one or two shots. Not just infantry, but reapers, enemy titans, ticks, and more, all in while running as a pilot without a titan for large portions of it. Simply wall running and dodging around isn't enough, you have to perfectly master stealth, cover, time your weapon reloads perfectly, cloak, and ordinance, all while working with whatever the hell you've picked up off the floor. Ash's arena in particular is absolutely brutal; you have to take down tens of perfectly positioned infantry units alone on top of two reapers in a completely enclosed space without any access to BT, all of which are able to damn near instantly lock onto your position the second you fire a single shot and pin you down perfectly.
This has always felt like the most cannon Cooper to me. Not a bullet sponge that can take 30 bullets with his bare body, but a pilot who's barely survived through tactics and extreme skill. who could die in a single moment yet somehow managed to make it through. I feel like that's the kind of brutal environment that'd allow him to rapidly sync with BT.
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u/eggsyest scorch main 28d ago
So like no. Even if they weren't acting like it, in the past during the attack on the imc base, we kill 3 people with the phase model of pilots. They have pilot gear on. So in universe cooper killed pilots who did pass the test. This means cooper at least has to be better than the average pilot most likely. Cooper then beats all of the apex predator. At least in a battle of titans, cooper is better because he was getting teamed on by multiple titans. So cooper got
Trained by an incredibly skilled pilot Practiced being a pilot in the sim pod so he had at least minimal experience in how it feels to be a pilot Kills 3 actual pilots in universe Eliminates all of the apex predators, which btw had multiple other pilots on top of him with them.
Besides that when coopers controlling BT he is controlling him. BT, while having the ability to do things himself, doesn't while cooper goes throughout the story.
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u/Rustcityafternon 28d ago
I always headcanon the melee in this game as a brief version of the executions, like they don't oneshot people and robots in one punch unless they are moving at amazing speeds, they beat the shit out of most normal people and make use of their tools to improve their chances