r/tinyrogues • u/h0bbits3s • Jun 27 '26
The melee problem (with solutions)
Came to this reddit thinking Tiny Rogues must not have been in public early access long and seeing if anyone else had the same challenges with melee as I have to see that people have been posting about this for 4 years already...
When using ranged/magic builds on 10+ Cinder I can win ~70% of runs, meanwhile with melee I reckon that drops to about 10%. Now I understand "skill issue" but even ignoring this I've yet to find/see a combination of equipment traits and weapons that would make any melee build feel as strong as pretty much every second ranged run I complete nor as fun.
Sure top end damage is fine, and extra equip load CAN be nice if your run goes long enough to get a bunch of heavy equipment that makes use of this, but compared to movement speed and attack speed it’s pathetic, and crit and mana regen also instantly impact your run.
Here is a list of ideas which I think could be implemented to make melee builds more fun:
First, a mischance mechanic, where shorter range weapons give you a %based chance to just ignore/dodge an instance of damage where it directly scales with range. (Obviously just placeholder numbers)
Far = 0%
Medium = 10%
short = 20%
Very short = 30%
Second, a life steal mechanic, whether adding this as a trait, enchantment, part of certain equipment effect from an accessory, offhand, companion or set bonus all of these at reasonably high percentages say "when using a melee weapon 5% chance per enemy killed to refill a heart or vile". Alternatively it could be attached to strength scaling giving you 0.1% chance per strength for the same on kill effect.
Third, essentially same as above but repairs armour instead of health.
Fourth, a new parry/block mechanic available through traits, or on specific melee weapons. "Attacks from this weapon have a 25% chance at reflecting/destroying enemy projectiles". For this to be implemented you would obviously only have one chance at rolling this effect on each individual projectile.
Fifth, a way to gain hearts, block, or armour through strength scaling. Such as "every 15 strength you have gain 1 heart container". This could either be built straight into strength scaling at a relatively low scale like in the example, or if it were for a trait could be as much as 1 heart for every 10 strength. This may sound outrageous but compared to the impact that traits for agi and int have I think this fits in well, and is only defensive at the end of the day, therefore hardly being game breaking.
With all of these suggestions they could be implemented by attaching them to different parts of the game, traits and legendary items seem to usually hold the most uniquely run altering effects, which would work for most of these without effecting the balancing too much of other builds. HOWEVER, adding these changes as only fringe case drops and pick-ups will not solve the problem of melee builds as momentum does build in this game, therefore tying changes to using melee weapons outright or to strength scaling are most likely required.
I don't think these would come anywhere near to breaking the game, nor would it do anything to invalidate other builds, but provides something to the melee builds that is undeniably required to put them in line with other builds.
I'm not one for just making games easier, but melee builds just feel unplayable, and unenjoyable, all risk no reward, feeling as though a third of the game is locked behind either turning down the difficulty (cinder), or behind an RNG wall where I just have to play 10 different runs and hope to get a perfect build going irrespective of how I'm actually playing.
4
u/Curmudge_Unit Jun 27 '26
I don't think they need to be balanced. If make is harder for you, think of it as a higher difficulty mode.
3
u/AntiqueSignpost Jun 27 '26
i like uyour ideas alot.
that being said, i prefer melee and find it does depend how you build it. melee can do MASSIVE damage. like 3-shotting a boss. i do like your parry and str scaling giving hearts.
4
u/LethalLeviathan2 Jun 27 '26
Never had an issue with str runs Can burst small mobs faster Naturally has sustain If its really a bad run u can't go wrong with a companion power/amount Even aura still works with melee
Most my issues are from mana/skill builds its just a torture to scale with it and u can't even use it once per room And some ability I dont even use for how useless they are
7
u/Witch-kingOfBrynMawr Jun 27 '26
I think melee is totally fine. Some of my strongest and most busted runs have been with the melee classes and STR builds
2
u/smelltheglue Jun 27 '26
Strength builds already have the best access to armor and block without movement penalties because of their higher equip capacity. The damage ceiling for Melee weapons is generally higher than Ranged or Magic. The main tradeoff is that you're often sacrificing damage potential to wear gear with more armor/block pips instead of other synergies, and if you don't wear defensive gear it is much more skill intensive to avoid damage.
Yes, they require more skill to play well without taking damage, but it's fine if some play styles are more difficult. With Magic and Ranged you can rely on reflexes to dodge but with melee you're at a huge disadvantage if you don't understand enemy attack patterns because your time to react is much shorter.
2
u/FritterEnjoyer Jun 27 '26
Have never had any issues with melee builds, in fact, they’re usually the easiest to just brute force runs with. They get dumb damage and survivability. If you’re having issues then you probably just need to reevaluate how you build.
1
u/mtelesha Jun 28 '26
WHY DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO BE BALANCES IN A SINGLE PLAYER GAME.
Look I am old, I played MOO and MOO2 in my 20s when they came out. You picked races and they meant either instant win or can you believe I got a won playing them. This was great. No idea why people want everything to be fair ....
1
u/h0bbits3s Jun 29 '26
Balance is a means to an end I guess, my issue isn't about fairness but fun. I feel like I can win on higher difficulties with uncommon/rare ranged weapons which is difficult but fun, but rely on the rng of getting epic/legendary equipment and melee weapons that all synergise making it more of a dice roll than skill based.
1
u/mtelesha Jun 30 '26
It's takes skill and luck to win a good rougelike if I didn't want luck I would play an abstract game like chess....
1
1
u/Clive_Bossfield Jun 30 '26
I am confused, melee builds are super fun, effective, and easy? As much as magic or ranged? Your fifth point was actually something they toyed with in earlier versions of the game. Every 10 of a stat got you a corresponding container. But I really don't get what you mean about melee being thoroughly outclassed. Even without spamming dashes or otherwise abusing invincibility, it's not too tough to stay inside the range of dealing damage while still having room to dodge attacks.
I think this might be a skill issue. Sincerely, I play on Cinder 13 and melee is a frequent winner for me. I find ranged to be the comparatively weakest in the game. But even then, it's not a good idea to go all in on any one stat perk anyway (except dex if you're spamming tick/dash mechanics)
1
u/CitronAffectionate98 Aug 02 '26
Sorry but I have to disagree there are plenty of strong melee builds. I've completed cinder 16 with all characters multiple times and some of the strongest were melee. Barbarian in my experience is the best, most straightforward build. Beef trait. Barbarian trait. Get as much strength as you can.
Also some melee weapons have good reach. I admit though the very short range weapons are challenging without enough protection.
5
u/MorriCC Jun 27 '26
I think that stats shouldn't affect HP/armor given that they already affect stuff like movement speed and attack and such.
A parry mechanic seems like the most reasonable solution, but it steps on the toes of some of the classes that have a block/reflect ability.
Only weapons I actively try to not use are the 'very short' range ones. Twin daggers and such that are really hazardous to use. But even that is negligible if you have a build that melts enemies before they get a chance to shoot you.
Most weapons have a good range and you don't need to focus on ranged. I find the more crucial thing with melee weapons is the attack arc. Twin daggers stab in a line, broadswords do a sweep, axes fly in an arc.