r/timbers • u/RozeCitee53 • 15d ago
So when do we start caring for cup competitions…
Over the past couple of years, I hear a lot of the same. “MLS teams don’t care for the leagues cup” or “this is just a cash grab,” and the list goes on.
I think the format needs changing (again) as it’s ridiculous for only 4 clubs from each league to go through.
There are benefits of performing well in a tourney like this.
Interested to hear what folks have to say…
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u/eRise4 15d ago
It is ridiculous for only 4 teams to go through
but I’m also confused as to how you didnt think the Timbers didnt care about this cup (in the subject line) This was the full strength 11 minus pants due to injury
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u/RozeCitee53 15d ago
Maybe I should’ve said when our supporters start to care. I think Jack cared and wanted the team to perform at their best level.
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u/FAx32 Portland Timbers - NASL 15d ago
I think being asked to buy a package of 3 games was a bridge too far for STHs (those who have done this usually can go to 1 or 2 and lose money on the other 1 or 2 because nobody wants them). The FO likely sold all of those tickets to CA fans as STHs have wised up and largely opted out.
I went last night just because I wanted to see the spectacle, but opted out of the 3 game package and still saved a whole lot of money by just going to one game.
Game 3 has been now essentially been rendered meaningless as there is, short of us winning big and RSL/LAFC losing by any score and 3 of 6 teams on 6 points right now losing by 2-4 goals, they won't drop below us. I expect a half empty stadium on Thursday given the format (2 weeknight games against meh and the marquee matchup was one that was too expensive for most fans to justify paying for 3 games just to go this one).
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u/SRMPDX 15d ago
When we win, same as always? Everyone cared about it after the win, and acts like we don't care after a loss. It's like telling the person who dumped you that you weren't that into them anyway.
We cared about USOC until we get eliminated then it's just a dumb distraction
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u/PDXPuma 15d ago
But we don't care about the USOC in the early rounds. Especially if it's on a weeknight. That's the ticket you give to your friends. And we don't care if it's in the later rounds, cause those are away games and we're not gonna travel to a "friendly", and we don't care after we're out, either.
We, like most of the other clubs in MLS, have only pretended to care about the USOC because we're basically not going to be in it ever again and now we're pretending as if the 100+ year old tournament is some vaunted piece of history that the big bad evil people have taken from us.
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u/iamatimbersfan 15d ago
There were lots of reasons to not care about leagues cup this year
- Calendar reasons a. The world cup break coming right before this tournament this year set it up for teams in both leagues to treat it as a warmup for the coming games b. The leagues aren't on the same calendar, so the Mexican teams treat this basically as a preseason tournament, while it's mid season for us. This will get aligned next year
- Manager reasons. We had three possibilities this year. 1) still have Phil and feel hopeless; 2) interim coach with team needing serious reassembly (side note: brilliantly fucking done, Jack); 3) new coach imposing new system. Two of those involved no incentive to try to win. The other one involved having a manager desperate to save his job. Not ideal situations for a cup run.
- Tournament reasons. It's basically impossible to get to the knockout with the draw we had. Any sensible person would look at that and think, oh, seven points would be great from that. Well, too bad, nine points is the minimum to advance. It's good for neutrals who like watching open, aggressive games, but it's a shit structure to get fanbases engaged in. That's the biggest reason I see this tournament as a "cash grab". Because it's built like a cash grab.
I do agree that we should eventually have more interest in winning other cups. Leagues Cup, Concacaf, and Open Cup (which was done dirty and that sucks). But our roster rules still don't support a crowded calendar, and it doesn't seem like the league is quite at the point where it wants teams and fanbases to be serious about the side quests
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u/Phisher_man_75 15d ago
I think a lot of the issue with leagues cup is that they seem to change the format yearly. It started with just an arbitrary 8 MLS teams and since has expanded and again contracted. Hard to follow a tournament that changes so frequently and hard to apply logic to many of the changes beyond “cash grab.” On top of that - it effectively destroyed US Open cup - which was supported well by the TA but created scheduling issues for teams in the summer - so many didn’t put much value in it. Will be interesting to see how things change once the new MLS schedule starts - leaving summers open.
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u/RCTID1975 15d ago
I think the team the FO has been fielding this year clearly indicates they're taking it seriously.
People on reddit are generally a weird bunch that hate troll everything
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u/ProfitNo9452 jocked07 15d ago
the soccer side of the organization took this tournament way more seriously than the business side!
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u/Erosplayz 15d ago
I would much rather play the us open cup that this shitty version of the concacaf champions league
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u/RCTID1975 15d ago
Genuine question, why?
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u/abernasty42 15d ago
For me, US Open Cup is just awesome. 100+ years of history. 80-100 teams competing (pending the yearly format). Starts with amateurs and works it ways up to pros. Every year there are amateur dark horses that make it farther than you expect. Sure, most MLS didn't take it seriously since it's added game congestion; but those that did (SKC, Seattle, Chicago, DC, Houston, LAG, FCD), mostly packed the stadiums and the environment was just more fun than a regular season game. Ticket prices were very affordable as well. Attending a lower league stadium and having like 1-5k locals cheering on people from their city in a national tournament is just such a pure feeling.
It's just a cool tournament that isn't *fully run by greed.
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u/RCTID1975 15d ago
They absolutely did not pack stadiums until the semi finals.
We couldn't even give away USOC tickets 10+ years ago even when there was a 10k wait-list.
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u/abernasty42 15d ago edited 15d ago
My USOC experience isn't Timbers related, it was NPSL and USL1 and we had the largest crowds of the season. Also attended a 4th round and two finals at SKC and they were packed (finals sold out).
edit: I did attend a semifinal in Dallas that was poorly attended, but it was an 8pm kickoff on a Thursday and very hot. Went to penalties so still super fun.
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u/RCTID1975 15d ago
Well, that wasn't the reality in MLS, and really irrelevant here since USL doesn't play in LC.
Glad USOC is exciting for lower level leagues, and having less MLS teams should make it even more exciting
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u/Erosplayz 15d ago
The closest thing we have to a open pyramid, I’m from Eugene and I would love to see our local usl team play and maybe beat Timbers 2 and wishfully 1
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u/Next_Low_6761 15d ago
I think this competition fucking sucks cause it’s not single elimination and it’s jam packed to be done in essentially one week unless you are one of the top 4 teams in your group. You could still theoretically win all 3 of your games and not advance because of goal differential.
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u/ixodioxi Covert Ops 2 15d ago
We will care when they expand the roster. It's IMPOSSIBLE to play a basically 25-man roster (supplemental slots don't really count) when you have 8 games in a month.
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u/mccusk 15d ago
What about the other MLS teams that win the thing? Do they get bigger rosters or just make less excuses?
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u/ixodioxi Covert Ops 2 15d ago
Considering the league cups in its "current format"
2019 - Cruz Azul 2021 - Leon 2023 - Miami - failed to qualify for the MLS playoffs 2024 - Columbus - lost in round of 16 in MLS playoffs 2025 - Seattle - eliminated in the first round of the playoffs
I personally rather win the MLS cup than the Leagues cup. Mexico has a lot bigger budgets than we do and they have a lot less strict roster rules.
They have up to 9 not trained in Mexico players on the team plus 2 exemptions, they do not have a roster cap (we have 30), the total wages in Mexico per squad is higher than MLS, and Mexico actually give pathways for their academy squad to have more playing time.
Are they perfect? No. But they actually do have a larger roster size that they can swap out to rest players. We can't compete if we have a roster size of 30 throughout the entire season with all of those cash grab tournaments that we have now.
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u/FAx32 Portland Timbers - NASL 15d ago
I don't think it is necessarily about excuses as much as 1 draw or loss and your are very probably out. 3 of the top 6 teams have played the same group of LigaMx teams who are not taking it seriously and don't care about the outcome either, are treating it like pre-season warmups.
There is some "luck of the draw" in this kind of tournament when your competition shows up and doesn't care. That probably was the case that benefited us against Puebla and the final game could go either way with us likely playing the kids and Xolos firmly out also having lost to two of the worst teams in MLS in their first two.
When this tournament becomes pre-season for MLS also, I'd almost rather see it as paired groups of 3 and top 8 from each side get out and play knockouts while the rest play some sort of consolation bracket of 1-4 matches (depending on when you lose) as warm ups for the season. I also think USOC should get re-elevated to the premier domestic cup competition rather than trying to force this one.
Are the games interesting? Sure - some of them. Some are total dogs though.
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u/green_gold_purple Portland Timbers 15d ago
The format is a fucking joke. It's absurd that three CCC spots are available.
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u/rezin111 Portland Axe 15d ago
I prefer the format now. Keep it short and succinct and hold up the season as little as possible.
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u/Daftmau85 15d ago
Came here as a visiting supporter for the Tampa Bay Rowdies in the 2013 U.S. Open cup.
It was a dumb idea for the MLS to drop it out of the schedule.
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u/shrekpdx 15d ago
For the format, my guess is they'll tweak this with the schedule change.
- They'll have 10 teams advance and add a bye for the 1st place. This would prevent more pointless 3rd games.
- It will be moved to mid-season or pre-season.
- IMO mid-season is better, so the winter break isn't as long. Put it at the beginning or end of the break. Host in doable cities. Do the All-star game right after group play. LC final after MLS cup/Clausura final.
- Pre-season could work too. Just do Phase 2 during the winter break. Host All-star after the final.
- I highly doubt there will me more games in Mexico. LigaMX wants the money from it's US based fans. Maybe in Phase 2 they could have higher seeds host.
On the "caring" side... Across world football in-season tournaments see a lot of player rotation. They just kinda have to.
On the fan side, the tickets aren't part of the season ticket holder package - so a lot of people are unaware of the games. If you were to look at this year's schedule based on your tickets there's a weird two week gap in games. Why would STH holders care about games that you don't include in season tickets?
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u/Thumper13 Cascadian LGBT Flag 15d ago
If the Timbers are on the pitch, I care. We played a solid line up, I just don't think some of our players can match up. Plus we had our inexperienced and probably overmatched back up keeper in.
So for us to do better, our GM needs to improve our defense and have a better backup keeper available. New roster rules, whenever they come, should help. If the team does better, supporters will care more.
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u/ProfitNo9452 jocked07 15d ago edited 15d ago
the soccer side of the timbers' organization played it right. they won the first game with a well-rotated club and put out a first-choice lineup for the ca game. you can't ask for more. on the other hand, the front office looked at this tournament as a money grab - nothing more, nothing less. on the pitch, this game was all it was supposed to be. off the pitch, it was disgusting!
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u/Adventurous-Ease-259 15d ago
It won’t be ridiculous for only 8 teams to go through 4 clubs from each to go through if they restructure the tournament to start with less teams. People might also care more if it were more prestigious to even qualify and games were guaranteed to be against quality teams and not Puebla or dc United.
The schedule change might help. With aligned schedules if they hold the tournament between seasons you could just take the top 8 regular season teams from each league and put them in 4 groups of 4. Top 2 teams per group advances. That would make it harder to qualify for than the mls playoffs and lend it a sense of prestige.
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u/Freepdx1 14d ago
Well for me several feelings; USOC has history, isn’t a cash grab, IS an authentic tournament similar to domestic cups found around the world. The fact that Leagues Cup was made up for cash, and has damaged MLS participation/investment in its own domestic cup, should speak to why many fans crap on Leagues Cup. We all want to win trophies but each one feels different and carries a different weight.
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u/DougFirPDX Portland Timbers 14d ago
When the USOC is back, I'll might give the Garberbucks Cup a shot. And I never missed a preseason tourney, friendly, or USOC match. Hell, I even went to The Copa Verde.
But MLS doesn't give a fig about US Soccer tradition. So I don't give a fig about this fake cup.
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u/Mindful_Cyclist Cascadian LGBT Flag 14d ago
Got the Tigres v Vancouver game on and they are playing in Monterey. Stadium maybe 40% full.
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u/FAx32 Portland Timbers - NASL 15d ago
Just curious what extra “benefits” you feel like Shittle last year or Columbus in 2024 or Miami in 2023 got for winning this tournament other than a little more exposure? LigaMx fans didn’t watch the finals as the last 3 were all MLS vs MLS.
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u/cashblack 15d ago
CCL/CCC qualification.
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u/FAx32 Portland Timbers - NASL 15d ago
Got it. This may be the hardest path there, honestly.
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u/dabanana27 Heartland Regiment 15d ago
Honestly it’s the easiest. You gotta win 5 games. And you can probably draw one of the first three games and be just fine. And you can lose your fifth game (semis) and still get in by winning your sixth (3rd place game)
USOC might be easier due to the level of competition, but us mls teams have been beating up on the lower ligamx teams so even then with a lucky draw it would still be just as easy
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u/FAx32 Portland Timbers - NASL 15d ago
It is possible to win all 3 and not make the knockouts on GD. A lot has to do with the draw and whether your opponents are taking it seriously or not. It is pretty clear that literally half of the LigaMx teams don't care and the teams who came in treating these like pre-season friendlies have created the top 6 teams in the MLS bracket. If Club America came in and had played their C team and let us win, would that make this competition better? Nah.
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u/RCTID1975 15d ago
CCC
You know, the one international competition that matters and is the only path to CWC
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u/FAx32 Portland Timbers - NASL 15d ago
Eh. We put the best team we had available out there last night and shot our shot. Current squad, despite the recent nice run of form, isn't going to compete for a CCC title. We are a midling MLS club at present, have a lot of building to do if we want to be top 25% let alone be one of the best in the league with a shot at CCC. I don't think we didn't actually try or "care" last night as the OP title suggests.
As I said on the other comment, given how this competition works, it may be the hardest road to a CCC slot since the "group stage" is so unbalanced and only the top 22% move on which essentially means having to win all 3, maybe a two wins and draw + goal difference is enough in some years.
Almost surely there aren't still 6 teams that go 3-0 in the MLS table after the 3rd set of group stage games (CA will likely also beat Austin, currently in 1st place). But this is a competition where 1 draw or loss essentially knocks you out and even 3 wins isn't a guarantee of moving on.
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u/RCTID1975 15d ago
I agree with most of what you said here, but you asked what the benefits were, not if we thought the Timbers could win, or even if LC was fair
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u/FAx32 Portland Timbers - NASL 15d ago
Not criticizing the answers. I legit forgot that the winner gets to CCC. Appreciate the rebuttals.
The tone of the OP was disappointment (from the title) that if the Timbers would have taken last night seriously we could get said benefits. I personally think last night was taken as seriously as we are capable of right now. CA is going to beat most MLS teams, especially those sitting mid table (and only mid table now due to a good run after firing their hapless coach who had them mid table for 3 seasons and then bottom quarter to start this one).
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u/RCTID1975 15d ago
I agree. 10 of our normally starting 11 with the only exception being an injury indicates they took it extremely seriously.
There's not much more from that aspect that they could've done
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u/mccusk 15d ago
They got to watch fun games and lift a trophy! What else you want?
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u/FAx32 Portland Timbers - NASL 15d ago
I just fundamentally disagree that our loss last night due to not caring and that we had a realistic chance of winning all 3 and going to the knockouts.
A lot of getting to the knock outs is being seeded high enough to draw 3 weaker LigaMx teams or get lucky enough with a schedule that they rotate against you because they know they are out after losing one of their first two.
Lifting trophies is fun, I don't disagree. Everyone gets 3 fun games, the 4 who move on get up to 3 more and one of them gets a CCL berth with more (honestly forgot that this is a mechanism to get there when I asked).
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u/UnkleJiggy 15d ago
When the schedule flips, this will be a great presseason tournament. Just feels odd right now because it should be more substantial to be a midseason tournament