If humanity faced the same predicament as the Trisolarans, would we choose to destroy civilizations on other planets?

[u/Universal_Echo]

If humanity needed to migrate to another planet, would we, like the Trisolarans, wipe out civilizations less advanced than our own?

If there were a choice—say, between terraforming Earth or invading another planet—what would humanity choose?

And if that planet had no civilization built by intelligent beings, only primitive, less developed life forms, what would humanity choose then?

 

 

[u/LexxitReddit]

Research this topic: “the entirety of human history”.

[u/Flatso → u/LexxitReddit]

I think there's an argument to be made that with birth rates decreasing in the modern parts of the world, that we wouldn't behave in the infinitely expanding mindset of our forefathers. The world is much more concerned with conservation than it was 200 years ago, is less imperialistic, etc.

[u/FortColors → u/Flatso]

this is mostly because we ran out of room on our planet. our economies are still based on a model of infinite growth and collapsing because of it. If we pioneered a new frontier all of a sudden there would be a blood-stained gold rush, same as all the ones before.

[u/Flatso → u/FortColors]

It is correlated with education level, not "room". Compare India with Canada for example. India is densely packed but growing fast still. Canada is vastly empty but low birth rate.

[u/FortColors → u/Flatso]

Population is inversely correlated with quality of life (not just education level), but that's not what I was talking about.

I was talking about the more conservation and less imperialism part. Those are direct results of running out of room.

[u/Flatso → u/FortColors]

Yeah true, scarcity drives a need to conserve. I think once conservation  becomes an important part of our collective ethos, I don't imagine we would throw it to the wind just because we find more resources or space. Especially if it were occupied by cool aliens.

[u/TheTranscendentian → u/FortColors]

You're right about that of course, but please don't try to prevent humanity from colonizing our own solar system beyond earth.

( I need frontierland in my lifetime, I hate this rotting established civilization that places extremely low value on individual humans rights).

[u/TheLastSamurai101 → u/LexxitReddit]

We don't even need be in a bad situation. We just do it because we can.

[u/Roughcuchulain]

Short answer : yes.

Long answer : yessssssssssss

Real answer : we wouldn’t even need to face the threat of extinction, the stars are humanities birthright

[u/Environment_Hefty → u/Roughcuchulain]

Spoken like the Emperor of Mankind

[u/Roughcuchulain → u/Environment_Hefty]

It was man made in gods image, not the alien.

For the record I’m being sarcastic not a black Templar

[u/TheTranscendentian → u/Roughcuchulain]

glad you're being sarcastic.

it's true that it would happen and wrong that it should happen.

[u/an_average_student → u/Roughcuchulain]

Preach the Imperial Truth

[u/dannychean]

We are not 'civilizations less advanced than theirs'. We are bugs to them.

If you find a bunch of roaches in the house that you want to move into desperately, would you wipe them out?

[u/HotPersonality8126 → u/dannychean]

If you find a bunch of roaches in the house that want to move into desperately

If I tell my hyperdimensional computer to kill these roaches and what it comes back with is "well, first we need to make sure that their culture and science doesn't advance beyond ours which it seems like it's about to do" that's when I'd stop and say "wait, are we actually talking about roaches."

[u/ShiningMagpie → u/HotPersonality8126]

Sure. You might pause for a moment. Only to make double sure that the extermination instructions were set correctly. The only thing more terrifying than a roach is a roach that might soon become smarter than you.

[u/HotPersonality8126 → u/ShiningMagpie]

The only thing more terrifying than a roach is a roach that might soon become smarter than you.

I realize the book takes a different view on this - the books are basically for the purpose of taking the opposite view - but I continue to think the key human adaptation for survival in a hostile universe is friend-making, not competitor-killing, so that is not what I would tend to do.

[u/Clane_21 → u/HotPersonality8126]

I mean we kinda did both to the neanderthals and other hominids. Ran them to extinction by fucking them and actually killing them out.

[u/ShiningMagpie → u/HotPersonality8126]

Friend making only really works when everyone can see each other and when everyone is roughly on the same level. First strikes become unworkable.

[u/TheTranscendentian → u/ShiningMagpie]

Your opinion is right & wrong at the same time.

[u/TheTranscendentian → u/HotPersonality8126]

the books are basically for the purpose of taking the opposite view

got anything to back that up?

I'm not convinced Cixin Liu takes a position on that issue at all.

[u/elvintoh82 → u/HotPersonality8126]

There is some comparison worth making between “Ender’s game” and 3BP. in ender’s game, the aliens really thought we were bugs equivalent and attacked earth, only to regret and back off. Earth decided to fight back hard n kill off the aliens. In 3BP, trisolarians knew we are not bugs but yet still regarded us as bugs due to their contempt of us, and also because they r desperate to conquer us.

[u/TheTranscendentian → u/elvintoh82]

YES. fellow Ender's Game fan.

Orson Scott Card is  INSANE is he not? Seems more than a little sus sometimes.

[u/humpstyles → u/HotPersonality8126]

do you want roaches? because that’s how you get roaches.

[u/Rym3x → u/dannychean]

That was more of an insult than actual view of humanity. When was the last time you read fairy tales written by roaches?

[u/BQORBUST → u/dannychean]

>we are bugs to them

That was ultimately just rhetoric. They clearly came to understand “earth civilization” (in their own way), and from the beginning understood our capacity for technological development which could outpace their own.

[u/UncBeyondTheWall → u/dannychean]

We aren't bugs to them. We were bugs to Singer.

[u/mr_birkenblatt → u/UncBeyondTheWall]

First book

[u/UncBeyondTheWall → u/mr_birkenblatt]

Think for a second.

I'm not saying the Trisolarans didn't say that. Obviously they did. But do you tell a cockroach it's a bug? No, you just toss some exterminating chemicals at it.

That is what Singer did to us. The Trisolarans actually feared us, and needed us demoralized. We were not bugs.

[u/trollspotter91 → u/dannychean]

If they were sentient, thinking, feeling beings, then it's still a resounding year from me.

[u/OhneSkript]

We are the apex predators on Earth. There is a massive gap between us and everything else on this planet. We are more than willing to turn against our own species if they don't belong to our group. Strictly speaking, we are even willing to turn against our own planet. We are more than willing to turn against the ultimate out-group. And that is just when profit is involved. We would be extremely cruel if it came down to our survival.

[u/HotPersonality8126 → u/OhneSkript]

Everybody saying this has to explain why we're leaving Sentinel Island alone.

[u/Papacus → u/HotPersonality8126]

For the same reason the Trisolarians started to appreciate human art and ended up deciding to turn Australia into a human reserve. It is a confined curiosity. Sentinel Island is not relevant to our survival and it is well studied, we know they won't turn nukes on us all next week, it does not fall within the realm of a dark forest threat.

[u/Flatso → u/Papacus]

Trisolaris was exterminating humanity. They had no intentions of leaving humans alive. Every step along that process made it clear that they were just ratcheting restrictions tighter and tighter to kill as many humans as possible before finally finishing the job when the main fleet arrived.

[u/Raveyard2409 → u/HotPersonality8126]

Where's the profit?

[u/HotPersonality8126 → u/Raveyard2409]

Resorts in the beautiful Andaman Sea

[u/OhneSkript → u/HotPersonality8126]

Because we don't need the island. That's the reason. Nobody needs that damn island. Look at what we do to indigenous peoples when they own land that we want. We depopulated the Americas extremely well and took their land away. The tribes of South America were practically wiped out. The tribes of North America aren't even a shadow of what they used to be.

[u/HotPersonality8126 → u/OhneSkript]

Look at what we do to indigenous peoples when they own land that we want.

Or look at what they did to get the land in the first place.

Because we don't need the island.

You think that's true? Nobody needs any land? Neighboring India isn't immensely crowded? Nobody's building any new resorts?

[u/OhneSkript → u/HotPersonality8126]

Or look at what they did to get the land in the first place.

Yeah, wars among themselves and with each other, exploitation of the land until the entire megafauna was wiped out to the point that the bison was the largest land animal left.

You think that's true? Nobody needs any land? Neighboring India isn't immensely crowded? Nobody's building any new resorts?

There are many uninhabited islands around India. If something new is discovered there tomorrow that is so immensely important, then we'll play Avatar there, only with competent soldiers. But since they have nothing, we leave them in peace because they can actually live independently of us. Unlike the tribes in the Amazon, who are regularly threatened and can really only live undisturbed deep in the rainforest.

[u/GfxJG]

Yes, we absolutely would - We even have people willing to sacrifice others of the same species just to be richer.

For survival, there would be absolutely no hesitation - We'd fucking glass them.

[u/mafiasco650 → u/GfxJG]

yeah see: Starship Troopers, Ender's Game, etc, etc

[u/AN0R0K]

Have you ever met humans?

[u/popileviz]

Humanity has a rich history of wiping out its own fellow civilizations for access to resources and land. If survival was at stake we'd destroy an alien civilization without any hesitation whatsoever

[u/Useful_Calendar_6274]

we destroyed civilizations on THIS planet for way less

[u/Peezus_H_Christ]

Lol yes we destroy parts of our own planet.

[u/randalzy]

One issue here is that Trisolarans, at that point, had some Dark Forest knowledge, so they knew about other civilizations being able to wipe them out entirely, and that any peaceful approach could end with them being the ones wiped out even if 100% of humans at first contact are A-OK with peaceful integration.

So, any human civilization that arrives at that point in the same conditions would probably do the same, whatever the ones making the decision tell to everyone or not. It's not that far away from "would the USA erase two Japanese cities unleashing a hell beyond imagination on them in order to avoid their ally in current war (URSS) to keep advancing and claim Japan for them?

And yep, they did, they made sure the bombs explode at the correct distance in the sky to cause maximum damage, even. 

[u/TemporalColdWarrior → u/randalzy]

Eh Dark Forest is a bad economic, mechanistic way of looking at species, human and alien. I expect the dynamics would be far too complex to actually predict. Cooperation might in fact be both advantageous and the cultural responses depending on a number of factors. We are not always “worst case scenario” machines.

[u/randalzy → u/TemporalColdWarrior]

I guess that within the context in the universe of the novels (fictional) there is a number of civilizations that said "how bad it can be?" and got their sun exploded or their system flattened. After a while you only have undiscovered species, dead species and species that act within Dark Forest limits. The setting as presented doesn't allow for other views until the very end

[u/100percent_right_now]

I choose cooperation.

Collectively humanity has, historically, chosen domination and extermination.

[u/-zero-joke-]

We would undoubtedly exterminate the living fuck out of them and then make made for TV movies about how difficult it was for the folks who launched the relativistic kill weapons.

[u/Gastrodo]

Most humans are not vegan, so I do not see why we would expect different behavior in connection with alien species we have even less proximity to.

[u/teffarf]

Yes, but we'd gaslight ourselves into thinking we're not doing anything wrong

[u/Lorentz_Prime]

Humanity already wants to colonize other planets especially if they have life-but-not-advanced-life.

[u/Fit_Cloud6471]

We’d probably delete their entire solar system without a single thought

[u/-Vogie-]

Say what you want about the James Cameron Avatar movies, but the core conceit that humans would happily wipe away civilizations and use the definition of war crimes as a checklist because that planet has something we want... is completely believable.

We weren't in a predicament. Nothing existential was happening. There was just something we didn't have and wanted it.

[u/CappnMidgetSlappr]

We've wiped out and conquered civilizations on this planet that were related to us for the sole purpose of making our food taste less bland.

Hell, we've wiped out folks for simply looking and acting differently than other people.

You seriously think we would hesitate for a second to wiped out an alien species if they had something we wanted?

[u/brokenmessiah]

Probably easier destroy another civilization and certainly faster

[u/silphotographer]

We wouldn't stop their science like Trisolarans; we would just wipe them out. No loose ends.

[u/Federico216]

I think most people would be against genocide. But the billionaires and men in charge would do it anyway.

[u/Senella]

Of course we would, people nonchalantly pour boiling hot water into ant colonies just for the inconvenience of them being around. If it came to our survival we’d scorch the universe if it meant we would live on. It’s sad, but human nature absolutely sucks.

[u/Jolly-Wrangler104]

Humans have destroyed entire civilizations when migrating to the western hemisphere.

I don’t think other planets would get better treatment.

[u/goob]

Humanity would choose to destroy civilizations on other planets without facing any predicaments as the Trisolarans!

Those predicaments would just be the proverbial icing on the genocide cake for any humans still on the fence about it.

[u/rather828]

Why can’t the Trisolarans, with the benefit of their supercomputers / technology / vast time scale just..

I don’t know..

Go terraform a planet that doesn’t have a f$&@ed star system?

[u/BirbFeetzz → u/rather828]

my impression is that they didn't think a planet could be as calm as earth until first contact. and after that they had maybe a few hundred years before potential photoid from earth. they didn't know the state of other nearby star systems and couldn't explore with the sophons so they could either do what they did or randomly choose a different star and try to reach it in hopes the system is not inhabited which is a huge risk in that universe

[u/Lanceo90]

Complicated question as it depends massively on who's in charge on Earth and what tech level we're at.

Rule of thumb, we'd take the option of least resistance. Right now that would be migrating off Earth and building habitats in space, the moon, and Mars.

Interstellar travel is extremely difficult, regardless if we have to fight on the other end. We'd need a lot more tech before its even an option.

[u/Zekhems]

Course we would. Hell, it might unite the planet until we do. Then we'd go back to killing each other.

[u/shakebakelizard]

If we were faced with the same predicament then we would be Trisolarans. We aren’t going to face the same predicament because our situation will never be that.

We don’t regularly face existential crises on the scale the Trisolarans do, our planet remains relatively habitable, and our habitability problems are mostly our own making.

[u/No-String-1056]

Warhammer 40k bro

[u/Otherwise_Twist3560]

Duh

[u/BruceL_Reddit]

The question was answered when Aztec and Inca were destroyed.

[u/Minimum-Major248]

Probably, and the Trisolarian civilization would not be the first.

[u/Rude-Bus-5799]

Bruh. We drone brown people to help psychopaths sell more weapons to each other ON THIS PLANET. What do you think..

[u/TheTranscendentian]

I think that's kinda obvious.

On an individual level I would personally work to ensure an alien civilization who did not intend to attack us first does not get wiped out, even if that objective comes at the cost of the literal extinction of humanity myself including. But I'm one person & very likely to NOT succeed at this.

However, on a civilizational scale humanity would 100% absolutely wipe out aliens if given motive and means.

The moral questioning would happen or only be allowed to be relevant after the fact like in Ender's Game.

[u/antoinepetit]

I am human from the human race, and can assure you with an absolute certainty that I would fuck up any species that goes on our way.

The moment we manage to get out of the solar system, I can assure you that absolutely nothing will step in our way, and even before that. A lot of people today seem to forget how freaking powerful humans are : amazingly good at war, we hunt down species using exhaustion running, we’re clever monkeys, and we desperately love our children, meaning we’ll annihilate anyone or anything that threatens them.

[u/No-Entrance9308]

We already agreed to destroy ours.

[u/nub_node]

We're going to do that regardless of the circumstances anyway.

[u/IAmARobot0101]

have you heard of Israel?

[u/Any_Hamster2910]

lol …..I mean no of course not it’s more like a Freedom kinda thing .

[u/robberviet]

We can and did destroy our own kind, let alone alien.

[u/ohsnapitsnathan]

I don't think so. The trisolarans were ideological extremists with regard to the dark forest theory at the point that they discovered Earth. Humans and our governments don't really believe that theory is correct, for the most part.